Why so many a**hole docs

[FSUMED]

I am just a curious little premed. My question is, if medical schools screen people so much to see if they are going to be good doctors and if they are doing it for the right reason(This is what interviews are for am I right?), how come so many of them, are arrogant, uncaring, condesending, a**holes. Just a thought

[This message has been edited by FSUMED (edited March 30, 2001).]

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[Spang]

Have you read House of God?

 

[cjw0918]

Because just about anyone can fake being a compassionate caring soul for a 30 minute interview. No really, I think the process of medical education and residency tends to obliterate the humanity from many future docs. I think you have to conciously make an effort to remember why you were first attracted to medicine (assuming it was altruistic reasons to begin with) when you are sacrificing so much for a career that is not always glamourous.

 

[Djanaba]

There are @ssholes in every profession. We just have more direct contact, higher expectations, and personal anecdones with docs than with many other professions saturated with people with chronic personality deficiencies.

 

[Cobragirl]

This may seem like either a novel or just a WAY to obvious reason...but here goes...

I think that maybe "good" people who go into medicine (and I'm talking about ALL medicine..nursing, tech, dentistry...you name it) get really burned out after a while because many of the people they are "helping" are so un-caring themselves. They "abuse" the staff (and I'm not talking about mental patients here...just normal ol' "MEAN" people) Maybe they get "tired" of "caring" becuase it doesn't seem to make a difference after a while (like the lung cancer patient that refuses to quit smoking, etc). Maybe they figured out that they CAN'T save the world and are disallusioned.

I think any of the above reasons would make a "normal", "nice" person behave poorly.

On the other hand...yes, there are still PLENTY of people (and I hate to say it...men mostly) who look at their position as a way to "rule the universe". Their heads swell like balloons because of the money and "prestige" and they act like asses....how many times have we heard about the rich (male) doctor or lawyer who dumped his faithful wife (who worked to get HIM through school) for some bimbo 20 year-old. Just a stereotype....but unfortunately it does happen. It's the power trip...the CONTROL factor!

 

[kelsey kit]

At a certain point everyone, gets tired and burned out. That's still not an excuse to be a burden on others (i.e. behaving in an abusive manner). In my experience and observations, the a**holes most likely picked healthcare professions for the wrong reasons and thus feel frustrated and unhappy. Even the best of us get stressed out sometimes, but for those who love medicine and healthcare, they understand it is a wonderful field and are less likely to get burned out.

 

[Catherine]

CobraGirl, "...because many of the people they are "helping" are so un-caring themselves.".

Spot on.

 

[MEAT]

Not everyone can be as kind and compassionate as me. It's a gift, not something you just can just pickup a book and learn. Kindness comes from within, it comes from the heart. Anyone got a Kleenex? I think I'm gonna cry.

SEEKING LOVE

DR. KINDHOLE MEAT, M.D.

 

[gasdoc]

I agree w/ Cobragirl. The residency and even medical training definitely dehumanizes doctors in training. Anyone who has to work 80 hours per week will not be so fresh and kind. Its just human nature to be cranky. Also, these long hours can go for the attendings as well, especially the high paying, high power, high stress specialties like surgery, orthopedics, cardiology, etc. As you may have noticed, those tend to be the arrogant, a-hole doctors. If you visit the family practitioner, pediatrician, or general internist, they tend to be a lot more of the kindly doctor that Norman Rockwell would paint. In short, medical students choose their specialty based on their personality. A lot more a-holes go into the high power high stress specialties so they can become arrogant, brutal doctors. The kind-hearted, compassionate ones go into the primary care specialties or the specialties w/ a lot of free time, like radiologists and anethesiologists. I can guarantee you that anesthesiologists and radiologists, as a whole, are nicer doctors. So, if you want to know nice doctors, go see the RIGHT specialists. Then, again, when you have appendicitis, you have to go to a surgeon.

 

[ppdka]

I have to say that the three surgeons that I've had contact with as family/friend of patient capacity (A cardio-thoracic surgeon, a urologist/transplant surgeon and another transplant surgeon) were all very kind, understanding and helpful people. Collectively, they are one of the main reasons that I want to become a doctor.

 

[GreatPumpkin]

It also has something to do with the type of people that can make the qualifications for med school. Type A, competitive, aggressive personality. I know this is not always the case, but this is the type that seems to dominate. During our first month of classes, my med school class took a personality test and the vast majority were type A with some AB and very few type B. I am also not saying that all type A people turn out to be a**holes, but I would say the tendency is higher.


------------------
Rob
4th year med student at MCV/VCU in Virginia. Matched to Pathology at MCV.

 

[Doggy]

a**holes, eh? Didn't know proctology was that popular!

 

[roo]

Is there a test that could assess a Type A-Hole personality?

 

[Stephen Ewen]

This is a very serious question that I personally have given a lot of energy to seeking answers to. I think the answers are quite complex, and there are exceptions within all the dynamics that go into it. Still, I think some genralities can be arrived at and discussed as possible culprits.

My opinion is that it relates to what is really nothing other than a developmental disorganization inherent in the typical pathway to becoming a US doc.

To help understand this, consider that the ones of whom we speak typically struggle to find the necessary time to develop on their every level in a congruent measure to their intellectual life, even though they do not usually think of things in these terms.

Consider. Usually, they graduated from a rigorous high school career so they could enter very soon into a competitive college where each "B" (past the first very few) means a coffin nail in their chances for medical school acceptance. While in undergrad, they typically volunteered every extra hour and all summer long in a medical setting, had to work some besides, and studied for and took the rigorous MCAT in between. They then applied to as many medical schools as possible, criss-crossed the nation for evaluative interviews and, if accepted, matriculated into and studied within one of the most rigorous courses of study on the entire planet. They then entered into the usually insane, sleep-deprived work hours which are a U.S. residency, then quickly entered into medical practice to start paying on their debts which have typically become a monster during all the previous years. Amidst all these events over all 11-15 of these years, many simply did not have time to develop along the other lines of life that comprise a healthy psychosocial makeup.

A great many physicians realize the need for significant growth only in their thirties or forties after all their training is over and they are settled into practice. By then, they as a rule must contend with many weeds which hinder the seeds that need to sprout for their healthy psychosocial growth. Sadly, they are developmentally disorganized.

Granted, there are exceptions; and this is certainly an incomplete explanation. Yet, I think I certainly do have hold of a real thing here--unfortunately.

Sometimes we have to know the bad news, like above, before we can know the good news.

For the good news, I can talk about how I think a lot of these potential pitfalls can be countered; but later on, cause right now I gotta go....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

[Nanon]

Stephen! Oh my goodness, we AGREE on something! It's a freakin' MIRACLE!!!

, hehehe.

Seriously, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Given that the typical route to med school has not been my route, I often wonder what I would have been like if I were already a doctor at 32. All of the things I've done since highschool would likely not have happened... like meeting my husband, having the time to establish a relationship with my ill mom, traveling and expanding my job skills. The friends I wouldn't have met, the interests I wouldn't have had. Spooky. I'm not saying that the traditional route is bad, but there is an inherent lack of FREEDOM to develop into a diverse and introspective person. And given the internal social pressures to be a certain kind of person that fits the "doctor" mold, before you've had a chance to examine how you really want to approach things, I can imagine how that might make a person a little crazy or a**holish.

Nanon

 

[FSUMED]

This is great. I really appreciate everyones input so far. I have thought about this for while I would say that I do agree with most of you. I just hope that I can retain my personality, sense of humor, and compassion for my fellow human beings despite the rigors of medical school. Keep up the good work guys.

Patrick

 

[crisis_response_director]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gasdoc:
I agree w/ Cobragirl. The residency and even medical training definitely dehumanizes doctors in training. Anyone who has to work 80 hours per week will not be so fresh and kind. Its just human nature to be cranky. Also, these long hours can go for the attendings as well, especially the high paying, high power, high stress specialties like surgery, orthopedics, cardiology, etc. As you may have noticed, those tend to be the arrogant, a-hole doctors. If you visit the family practitioner, pediatrician, or general internist, they tend to be a lot more of the kindly doctor that Norman Rockwell would paint. In short, medical students choose their specialty based on their personality. A lot more a-holes go into the high power high stress specialties so they can become arrogant, brutal doctors. The kind-hearted, compassionate ones go into the primary care specialties or the specialties w/ a lot of free time, like radiologists and anethesiologists. I can guarantee you that anesthesiologists and radiologists, as a whole, are nicer doctors. So, if you want to know nice doctors, go see the RIGHT specialists. Then, again, when you have appendicitis, you have to go to a surgeon.•

Unfortunately, I can't really agree with this statement. I personally had more problems and grief from psychiatrists, internists, and family practicioners. It is ironic: an allergist was giving me problems and I had to see a psychiatrist because I couldn't deal. The psychiatrist then contributed to the problem.

I have had really nice surgeons and feel badly that they often get called arrogant.

I think everyone has different experiences with different types of docs.

 

[crisis_response_director]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:
This is a very serious question that I personally have given a lot of energy to seeking answers to. I think the answers are quite complex, and there are exceptions within all the dynamics that go into it. Still, I think some genralities can be arrived at and discussed as possible culprits.

My opinion is that it relates to what is really nothing other than a developmental disorganization inherent in the typical pathway to becoming a US doc.

To help understand this, consider that the ones of whom we speak typically struggle to find the necessary time to develop on their every level in a congruent measure to their intellectual life, even though they do not usually think of things in these terms.

Consider. Usually, they graduated from a rigorous high school career so they could enter very soon into a competitive college where each "B" (past the first very few) means a coffin nail in their chances for medical school acceptance. While in undergrad, they typically volunteered every extra hour and all summer long in a medical setting, had to work some besides, and studied for and took the rigorous MCAT in between. They then applied to as many medical schools as possible, criss-crossed the nation for evaluative interviews and, if accepted, matriculated into and studied within one of the most rigorous courses of study on the entire planet. They then entered into the usually insane, sleep-deprived work hours which are a U.S. residency, then quickly entered into medical practice to start paying on their debts which have typically become a monster during all the previous years. Amidst all these events over all 11-15 of these years, many simply did not have time to develop along the other lines of life that comprise a healthy psychosocial makeup.

A great many physicians realize the need for significant growth only in their thirties or forties after all their training is over and they are settled into practice. By then, they as a rule must contend with many weeds which hinder the seeds that need to sprout for their healthy psychosocial growth. Sadly, they are developmentally disorganized.

Granted, there are exceptions; and this is certainly an incomplete explanation. Yet, I think I certainly do have hold of a real thing here--unfortunately.

Sometimes we have to know the bad news, like above, before we can know the good news.

For the good news, I can talk about how I think a lot of these potential pitfalls can be countered; but later on, cause right now I gotta go....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited March 30, 2001).]•

You will find arrogance in any field. After all, there are many fields that require brilliance. For example, I have seen BRILLIANT but arrogant mathematicians.







[This message has been edited by crisis_response_director (edited March 31, 2001).]

 

[crisis_response_director]

Physical scientists go through VERY rigourous and competitive programs. You will find that some are arrogant and some are not. Yet, they have all gone through EXTREME academic rigor.

At the beg of a ph.d program one takes HARD courses, teaches, does research and prepares for comps. If and only if, these comp exams are passed, the student becomes a doctoral candidate and may begin work on a juried dissertation. While working on the dissertation, the student must continue teaching and doing research. After the dissertation is completed the candidate must defend it.

Engineers are very brillant people with varying personalities.

As a physics instructor I have seen people leave engineering programs because they couldn't handle the math. However, they did well in the pre-med curriculum because of less math involvement. For instance, pre-meds are required to take non-calculus based physics. Pre-engineering students along with all physical science majors must endure CALCULUS based physics.



[This message has been edited by crisis_response_director (edited March 31, 2001).]

 

[crisis_response_director]

It shows arrogance when doctors believe that only they have gone through the most difficult. They don't realize what others go through in other fields.

[This message has been edited by crisis_response_director (edited March 31, 2001).]

 

[FSUMED]

I understand what you are saying Crisis, but that fact is that even though physicists and engineers go through difficult academic coursework, they are allowed much more leeway grade and pressure wise. Let's face it, there isn't near the same kind of pressure and competion in those fields. Most Engineering people I know, quite frankly dont care about thier grades, as long as the pass, and most of them do just that with C's and B's. I am not saying their work isnt not as hard, but they are not dealing with the added pressure and feeling like every B they make is putting them one step further from med school. Or in the case of student in med school, that low grades will not get them into a residency. Engineers have the piece of mind that now matter what their grades(as long as they are DECENT), they are going to walk out of college and make 60,000 a year. This is just a thought, and I dont mean to start an argument. I am not putting down engineers, everyone of them that I know busts their butts. Just saying that to my way of thinking their is quite a difference in the mentality of the two.

 

[crisis_response_director]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by FSUMED:
I understand what you are saying Crisis, but that fact is that even though physicists and engineers go through difficult academic coursework, they are allowed much more leeway grade and pressure wise. Let's face it, there isn't near the same kind of pressure and competion in those fields. Most Engineering people I know, quite frankly dont care about thier grades, as long as the pass, and most of them do just that with C's and B's. I am not saying their work isnt not as hard, but they are not dealing with the added pressure and feeling like every B they make is putting them one step further from med school. Or in the case of student in med school, that low grades will not get them into a residency. Engineers have the piece of mind that now matter what their grades(as long as they are DECENT), they are going to walk out of college and make 60,000 a year. This is just a thought, and I dont mean to start an argument. I am not putting down engineers, everyone of them that I know busts their butts. Just saying that to my way of thinking their is quite a difference in the mentality of the two.

•

I disagree. I have a doctorate and my program was competitive to get into. It was also hard to remain in. All we did was STUDY. WHEN YOUR IN A PH.D PROGRAM, YOU CARE MORE THAN JUST GETTING BY. This is because we found the subject matter to be so interesting and it was difficult. Yet, we learned it, lived it, and loved it. Many strong students did not last. I still say that having to be an instructor, a researcher, and a student all at once is very difficult.

I have seen pre-meds struggle in non-calculus based physics. Some end up having to repeat the course and even after trying really hard some still do not receive more than a C grade. Some are not capable of doing CALCULUS based physics. Yet, when they get into med school they think that grad school physics and math is easier than medicine. Well, for those struggling students, the words graduate level math and physics should not even be in their vocabulary.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by crisis_response_director:
All we did was STUDY. WHEN YOUR IN A PH.D PROGRAM, YOU CARE MORE THAN JUST GETTING BY.
•

I really do think med school is still in a different league--it is about more than smarts. For example, I presently am not aware of PhD program that requires a 3 to 9 year residency, and that after having already underwent the path med doc have taken to get to that point.

Even so, we live and learn, and I am game for more. Hence, I would be very interested to hear more details of what your schedule was like in your PhD program, and what your life was like OUTSIDE of it while going through it.

 

[FSUMED]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by crisis_response_director:
I have seen pre-meds struggle in non-calculus based physics. Some end up having to repeat the course and even after trying really hard some still do not receive more than a C grade. Some are not capable of doing CALCULUS based physics. Yet, when they get into med school they think that grad school physics and math is easier than medicine. Well, for those struggling students, the words graduate level math and physics should not even be in their vocabulary.

•

OK one problem with your reasoning here man, those premeds that cant do better than a C in non calc based physics, 9 times out of ten, WILL NOT be getting into med school. Not only is trig based relatively simple, but a C in it tells an adcom something(that a person has trouble with simple material), and then of course the MCAT has a whole section of PHYSICS, that your hypothetical pre-med kid will probably make a 5 or 6 on. And just another little thought here, the ONLY engineering and Physics and Math students I know taking Organic are CHEMICAL ENGINEERS. I have to say that I do take offense at your generalizations that pre-meds can't do math. I took calculus under FSU's most difficult calc teacher, and had no trouble, nor did any of my pre-med colleagues who actually have a chance at a getting into a med school. So put that in you particle accelerator and smoke it.

 

[FSUMED]

I just wanted to add that after my little rant on the last post, it is unfortunate that a good post discussing an important question had to be contaminated by some guy with an over inflated ego about his abilities to do math. I had no intentions of picking a fight, hope we can get back to the question at hand when this little tiff is over.

 

[stoic]

OK enough of the cat-fighting about math. I've awlays thought that math was something of a practice makes perfect subject. The "smart" people I know that struggle in math NEVER do any homework.... coincidence? I'd like to throw in another idea about the A-hole doc problem. I'm sure most of you guys have heard the saying "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." Lets face it, Physicians do have A LOT of power in our society. They get respect for having that M.D. behind their name (Yes, I know I left out D.O.- I'll get to that later.) They get better parking spaces than anyone else at the hospitals where they work (at least in Kansas they do) as well as MANY other benifits that just help to inflate a doc's opinion of himself. I think that the previous posters talking about about the improper social development were probably right about how most of this stuff starts; BUT I think that because Docs are inherently treated differently than other people, this is a problem that isn't going to go away.

Now, about D.O.'s; I have NEVER heard one person say that they had a D.O. physician that was a jerk. I'm sure that they are out there, but I think that the frequency is probably lower than with M.D.'s. I think that this says something about the type of person that is attracted to Osteopathic medicine. Please note that I am including the D.O's that are Surgeons, ER docs, Cardiologist. There are alot of non-family pracitce D.O.'s in my area and people just love them.

 

[ppdka]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by daveswafford:
... I'm sure most of you guys have heard the saying "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." ...•

Actually, the quote is:

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
?Lord Acton in a letter to Bishop Creighton, 1887


Just doing my part to irritate the masses -ppdka.

 

[lilycat]

I have to say Stephen, I was very impressed by your analysis. Seeing my other recently-graduated friends wander aimlessly from job to job, debate the merits of various career options and grad school programs, I am always reminded how "straight and narrow" my path is. Once you commit to premed or entering med school, there is not a whole lot of room for exploring other facets of your life. Combined with certain personality types, this definitely has the makings for the @sshole complex we're talking about with physicians.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by daveswafford:
Now, about D.O.'s; I have NEVER heard one person say that they had a D.O. physician that was a jerk. I'm sure that they are out there, but I think that the frequency is probably lower than with M.D.'s.•

Well, you have just met one (me). I think they probably are nearly as plentious--this is just hunch.

(This is NOT to say anything at all against Osteopathy, per se. Most here know I am very pro-Osteopathic, and think their presence and how they function in it is very, very important to American medicine).

 

[gasdoc]

I agree completely with SUMED on the facts about the rigor of medical training and completely disagree w/ that bragging "crisis" guy. SUMED is absolutely right to say that those premeds who cannot do simple physics will never get into a US medical school. I took calculus when I was in high school and only had to take 1 out of 3 quarters of calculus in college b/c of my AP credits. I took all 3 quarters of calculus based physics in college, and got all A's. I know many of whining engineering or physics student who did worst than me! In general, the true premedical students (i.e. the ones who are not loser premeds but actually get into US schools, and the good ones too), are some of the brightest stars in any college. Engineering and physics students may study harder concepts and theories than the "soft" core life sciences which medicine is a part of, but they will NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE w/ the serious premedical students who continue on in their path. Also, math and engineering majors can never compete well in premed classes b/c a lot of them don't have the work ethics. Premed classes may be easier, but they are MORE COMPETITIVE. I am every confidence that if I have continued on into an engineering career or math career, I would have more free time to date and have fun, as my math and engineering friends tell me. Also, I know I would have become a great mathematician or engineer too. So, come back w/ your reply...!!!

 

[Nanon]

gasdoc, honey, you need to spend a little more time in English class and a little less time wanking your... ego.

Hoping you get laid soon,

Hoping you grow up before getting into med school,

Nanon

 

[gasdoc]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Nanon:
gasdoc, honey, you need to spend a little more time in English class and a little less time wanking your... ego.

Hoping you get laid soon,

Hoping you grow up before getting into med school,

Nanon•

My grammar is fine, thank you. This is a "forum", honey. I am not writing for the New England Journal of Medicine.


[This message has been edited by gasdoc (edited April 01, 2001).]

 

[Doggy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gasdoc:
I agree completely with SUMED on the facts about the rigor of medical training and completely disagree w/ that bragging "crisis" guy. SUMED is absolutely right to say that those premeds who cannot do simple physics will never get into a US medical school. I took calculus when I was in high school and only had to take 1 out of 3 quarters of calculus in college b/c of my AP credits. I took all 3 quarters of calculus based physics in college, and got all A's. I know many of whining engineering or physics student who did worst than me! In general, the true premedical students (i.e. the ones who are not loser premeds but actually get into US schools, and the good ones too), are some of the brightest stars in any college. Engineering and physics students may study harder concepts and theories than the "soft" core life sciences which medicine is a part of, but they will NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE w/ the serious premedical students who continue on in their path. Also, math and engineering majors can never compete well in premed classes b/c a lot of them don't have the work ethics. Premed classes may be easier, but they are MORE COMPETITIVE. I am every confidence that if I have continued on into an engineering career or math career, I would have more free time to date and have fun, as my math and engineering friends tell me. Also, I know I would have become a great mathematician or engineer too. So, come back w/ your reply...!!!•

gasdoc,

I find your generalizations disturbing. YOU, personally, may be capable of becoming a great mathemetician or engineer. And, yes, you knew that MANY, BUT NOT ALL, engineering and physics students who did worse than you in math and physics.

However, I seriously doubt that ALL Harvard Medical school students can match up with science/engineering Phd students at MIT or Caltech in the aforementioned subjects. As for work ethics, which corner of your ass did you pull that from? I think you meant to say that premeds are much more cutthroat in competing against each other (probably out of perceived necessity, as admissions to med school is very competetive as well), while engineering students foster more collaboration (I know this because I was an engineering major who was premed). In no way does this reflect upon their work ethics or their capability to hang in "premed" classes. Just to "wank my ego" a little bit (thanks Nanon

) many engineers, myself included, breezed through o-chem and biology while also taking the "hard sciences."

Bottom line? Think before you make generalizations. There are many "bright stars" that prefer to shine in other arenas besides medicine.

 

[Leotigers]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gasdoc:
Its just human nature to be cranky. Also, these long hours can go for the attendings as well, especially the high paying, high power, high stress specialties like surgery, orthopedics, cardiology, etc. As you may have noticed, those tend to be the arrogant, a-hole doctors. If you visit the family practitioner, pediatrician, or general internist, they tend to be a lot more of the kindly doctor that Norman Rockwell would paint. In short, medical students choose their specialty based on their personality. A lot more a-holes go into the high power high stress specialties so they can become arrogant, brutal doctors. The kind-hearted, compassionate ones go into the primary care specialties or the specialties w/ a lot of free time, like radiologists and anethesiologists. I can guarantee you that anesthesiologists and radiologists, as a whole, are nicer doctors. •

Gasdoc, from reading your other posts on other threads, you've proven to me that insecure Anesthesiologists can be a**holes too.

- leo

 

[Cobragirl]

Personally, I think engineers are GODS!!!!

As the BRILLIANT med-student-to-be than I am (yes, that's sarcasm for those of you with no sense of humor)...I am utterly humbled my math, physics, and engineering majors! I got through all of my maths and physics with A's but I had to work HARD for them (and spent MANY hours in the math lab!). To me, math is like a foreign language...if you don't use it all the time, you forget it, and I certainly do. I got all the way through Calc II but I couldn't tell you a THING about it now! Engineering (and math and physics of course!) majors are who got us into SPACE people!!!! How's that for hard work??? Even we "biology" folks ought to know what a daunting path that must be!

ALL HAIL THE MATH GODS!!!!

 

[FSUMED]

I must that I agree with what Cobra is saying. I mean lets face it, most doctors out there probably couldn't tell you how to do a simple derivative if you asked them...I know I took calc and did well, but couldn't tell you. The fact is that it doesnt matter. I don't care if my doctor can do calculus as long as he can help me when I am sick. And I don't care if Engineers know a thing about human physiology, as long as they can build a bridge that will get me where I need to go. The point is, both fields play a vital role in this country and niether is better than the other. If it weren't for doctors, we would have engineers dying of stupid diseases. And if it weren't for engineers all the great doctors out there wouldnt have those gadgets they help them perform sugeries and diagnose illness. It doesn't need to be both ways. Bottom line...be proud of whatever you do, as long as makes you are fullfilled by it.

[This message has been edited by FSUMED (edited April 01, 2001).]

 

[Nanon]

Amen to that.

 

[mj]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Nanon:
gasdoc, honey, you need to spend a little more time in English class and a little less time wanking your... ego.

Hoping you get laid soon,

Hoping you grow up before getting into med school,

Nanon•

good one Nan.

Gasdoc, you're so cool. Will you marry me?

mj

[This message has been edited by mj (edited April 01, 2001).]

 

[Leotigers]

Gasdoc, I read your post before you edited it on the dental forum. I was truly shocked when I first read it. I wasn't going to respond because I thought the post spoke for itself. But since you've erased it, I feel that I need to reply. I cringe at the idea that you will be a physician soon, even if it is only to do things that CRNAs can do better. I'm sure I am not the only one who read it. Basically, he was mocking the Vietnamese immigrant by spelling things wrong and faking a bad Chinese accent. You should be ashamed of yourself !! You can edit things on this thread but we know exactly how you feel in your heart. I hope that for your future patient's sake, that you will only have Caucasian patients. A-hole.

- Leo, D.O.

 

[Zero Cool]

Doggy - Could not have said it better myself!!!

The only thing I would like to add is that I found it alot easier to memorize than to actually have to apply theories to problems encountered in my engineering classes.

Medical School is not hard, on an intellectual level. What makes Medical School hard is the vast amount of information you have to master in such a short peroid of time. But were not talking complex theories here, it is just memorization.

Yes, med students have to go through 3-10 years of residency training, but by no means is this "rocket science". Your dealing with the Human Body, the training better be longer. If I make a mistake and fry a transister, no big deal, it gets replaced. If I make a mistake during surgery, people die.

I'm not saying any Monkey that can memorize can be a Doctor, but by no means are they the smartest individuals walking the Earth.

[This message has been edited by Zero Cool (edited April 02, 2001).]

 

[solid_confusion]

Some docs are a**holes not by choice, but through a disease called intolerable unsociable ideation. The victim is first exposed to the disease once he receives an inoculation via a medical school acceptance letter. The disease remains in its dormant stage until the 3rd year of medical school, where the victim is then exposed to his first taste of medical authority. Two years later, the disease enters the exponential growth stage. The victim then observes that his authoritative power is ever-increasing. He enjoys this power, and realizes he does not need to kiss ass to request that orders be completed. After residency, the disease enters its peak phase and remains there permanently. The only known treatment is removal of the doctorate degree and issuance of an EMT certification. Within time, the victim will notice that his authoritative command has been terminated and must resort to accomodating and socializing with his peers and surroundings in order to function correctly.

 

[lemarck_2000]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by FSUMED:
OK one problem with your reasoning here man, those premeds that cant do better than a C in non calc based physics, 9 times out of ten, WILL NOT be getting into med school. Not only is trig based relatively simple, but a C in it tells an adcom something(that a person has trouble with simple material), and then of course the MCAT has a whole section of PHYSICS, that your hypothetical pre-med kid will probably make a 5 or 6 on. And just another little thought here, the ONLY engineering and Physics and Math students I know taking Organic are CHEMICAL ENGINEERS. I have to say that I do take offense at your generalizations that pre-meds can't do math. I took calculus under FSU's most difficult calc teacher, and had no trouble, nor did any of my pre-med colleagues who actually have a chance at a getting into a med school. So put that in you particle accelerator and smoke it.

•

Yes, crp is correct. I have seen people get into med school with "C's" in physics or OChem. It is true that not all pre-med's can do calculus based physics. NOTE: I said not all. I didn't say all pre-meds.

 

[lemarck_2000]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by FSUMED:
I must that I agree with what Cobra is saying. I mean lets face it, most doctors out there probably couldn't tell you how to do a simple derivative if you asked them...I know I took calc and did well, but couldn't tell you. The fact is that it doesnt matter. I don't care if my doctor can do calculus as long as he can help me when I am sick. And I don't care if Engineers know a thing about human physiology, as long as they can build a bridge that will get me where I need to go. The point is, both fields play a vital role in this country and niether is better than the other. If it weren't for doctors, we would have engineers dying of stupid diseases. And if it weren't for engineers all the great doctors out there wouldnt have those gadgets they help them perform sugeries and diagnose illness. It doesn't need to be both ways. Bottom line...be proud of whatever you do, as long as makes you are fullfilled by it.

[This message has been edited by FSUMED (edited April 01, 2001).]•

[This message has been edited by lemarck_2000 (edited April 06, 2001).]

 

[crisis_response_director]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gasdoc:
I agree completely with SUMED on the facts about the rigor of medical training and completely disagree w/ that bragging "crisis" guy. SUMED is absolutely right to say that those premeds who cannot do simple physics will never get into a US medical school. I took calculus when I was in high school and only had to take 1 out of 3 quarters of calculus in college b/c of my AP credits. I took all 3 quarters of calculus based physics in college, and got all A's. I know many of whining engineering or physics student who did worst than me! In general, the true premedical students (i.e. the ones who are not loser premeds but actually get into US schools, and the good ones too), are some of the brightest stars in any college. Engineering and physics students may study harder concepts and theories than the "soft" core life sciences which medicine is a part of, but they will NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE w/ the serious premedical students who continue on in their path. Also, math and engineering majors can never compete well in premed classes b/c a lot of them don't have the work ethics. Premed classes may be easier, but they are MORE COMPETITIVE. I am every confidence that if I have continued on into an engineering career or math career, I would have more free time to date and have fun, as my math and engineering friends tell me. Also, I know I would have become a great mathematician or engineer too. So, come back w/ your reply...!!!•

I have had students that got into med school with "C's" in physics.

I tutored an engineering student who eventually failed out of the program. She switched her major to psychology and did well in her pre-med courses. She is doing well in med school. The engineering program she was in was a bachelor's program.

My only point was this: we shouldn't make generalizations by assuming that medicine is THE hardest to endure.

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. If a person has difficulties with Eng Lit, getting a master's in Philosophy would be very difficult. But, if this person does well in sciences, than he will probably be better at physics, medicine, etc.

I never stated that mathematicians were the only strong students. But, you had just stated that med students are the MOST brilliant.

P.S. my physician did not make it through a master's program in physics. If he did, he would not be my doctor today. He may not be great at physics. But he is a great doc.

 

[crisis_response_director]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gasdoc:
I agree completely with SUMED on the facts about the rigor of medical training and completely disagree w/ that bragging "crisis" guy. SUMED is absolutely right to say that those premeds who cannot do simple physics will never get into a US medical school. I took calculus when I was in high school and only had to take 1 out of 3 quarters of calculus in college b/c of my AP credits. I took all 3 quarters of calculus based physics in college, and got all A's. I know many of whining engineering or physics student who did worst than me! In general, the true premedical students (i.e. the ones who are not loser premeds but actually get into US schools, and the good ones too), are some of the brightest stars in any college. Engineering and physics students may study harder concepts and theories than the "soft" core life sciences which medicine is a part of, but they will NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE w/ the serious premedical students who continue on in their path. Also, math and engineering majors can never compete well in premed classes b/c a lot of them don't have the work ethics. Premed classes may be easier, but they are MORE COMPETITIVE. I am every confidence that if I have continued on into an engineering career or math career, I would have more free time to date and have fun, as my math and engineering friends tell me. Also, I know I would have become a great mathematician or engineer too. So, come back w/ your reply...!!!•

GASDOC,

You must READ before lashing out. I only stated that getting a ph.d in physics or math or chem is just as rigourous. I did not brag about my credentials. But, you obviously did. If you have patients that are educated and you don't like what they say, how will your ego handle that?!
Are you going to berate them as you have me?!
Your ego is soooooooo inflated, how do you get your head through the door?

 

[Cobragirl]

I got straight "C's" in General Chemisty AND Organic....and I still got in. I also got straight "A's" in all my maths (up to Calc II), yet, I couldn't do a calc problem right now if my LIFE depended on it.....Although my grades don't reflect it, I can PROMISE you that my ORGANIC is STRONG, While my MATH is WEAK.....splain that!!!!

 

[crisis_response_director]

At the beginning of my doctoral program, I did nothing but study for classes, prepare for comprehensive exams, teach, do research, eat and sleep. After, I passed the exams, I started working on my dissertation. I also continued teaching (which was a pain) and doing research. Again, I only had time to sleep and eat. I spent ten years in my ph.d program. After I defended my dissertation and graduated I did a two year post-doc in a physics program and by then I was tired of math and physics.

By the way, in order to get a job in academia, especially in chemistry many have to do a post-doc after getting the phd.

[This message has been edited by crisis_response_director (edited April 07, 2001).]

 

[JThomas88]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by FSUMED:
I am just a curious little premed. My question is, if medical schools screen people so much to see if they are going to be good doctors and if they are doing it for the right reason(This is what interviews are for am I right?), how come so many of them, are arrogant, uncaring, condesending, a**holes. Just a thought

[This message has been edited by FSUMED (edited March 30, 2001).]•

---Why must you make that assumption?
Did you happen to get a "rough" interview?
They do what they have to do, and your expected to do what you have to do. Their interview approach may be "unique" but its unpretentiously a way to weed out those that are not able to adapt to the sitation. Docs are'nt really all dinguses, there may be a few here and there but the ones that conduct the interview are doing what they have to do.


------------------
"If we were supposed to talk more than we listen, we would have been given one ear and two mouths"
-Mark Twain

 

[FSUMED]

I guess you misread the post. I have never interviewed for med school...I was asking why so many are a**holes, if the interviews are supposed to weed them out. I never said anything about the interviewers being a**holes.

FSUMED

 

[crisis_response_director]

I think sometimes people mistake a doctor for being condescending when it may not be the case. The individual could just be rude and it may not have anything to do with the person being a doctor. For instance, I went to see a doctor a few months ago and he snapped at me. He wasn't belittling me or anything; he was just being rude. I later found out that he does not have an inflated ego. He just has a bad temper and has often been rude to his co-workers, friends, patients etc.

But, unfortunately there is rudeness in every field. I have seen rude mathematicians, rude biologists, rude doctors, rude nurses and rude actors.





[This message has been edited by crisis_response_director (edited April 07, 2001).]