KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
I took a few minutes and browsed through not only our forums, but a few of the other medical forums as well.

Why is there this seemingly unending need and quest for "respect?" There seems to be endless debates about which career, or college, or medical school, or medical specialty is more "respected" than the other?

Does any of this really matter to anyone?

It seems that for so many people, this is incredibly critical and I just don't understand where it comes from. Fact: Half the people in the country hate and don't respect the current president. Fact: Half the people in the country hated and didn't respect the LAST president. Fact: Half the people in the country will hate and not respect the next president.

Millions of people hate and don't respect the Pope. Millions of people hate and don't respect Bill Gates. Millions of people hate and don't respect doctors, lawyers, policemen, teachers, garbagemen, waiters, hotel maids, bartenders, etc. etc. etc.

Pretty much the only two jobs that seem to be universally respected are firemen and astronauts. (And I imagine that even most firemen feel that they aren't "respected" because they don't get paid that well.)

So if you're not in either one of those fields, you're pretty much going to be disrespected by a significant percentage of the population.

All things being equal, I guess I would like to be "admired" or "respected" by other people but at the end of the day, it really makes not a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Why is this such a burning issue for so many people?
 

Penguin2012

10+ Year Member
Apr 13, 2008
80
0
Status
Optometry Student
I am no psychologist but it might stem from the need that people have to assert their position in a social hierarchy.

It's human nature to want to be revered and looked up to.

Behavior is inheritable, it might be that our ancestors who were most respected were the ones who reproduced more. Which is why we still have an innate quest for respect.

Personally however, I find that I enjoy life more when I take myself less seriously. =)
 

cpw

It's a boy !!!
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 25, 2001
13,393
0
43
Tampa
Status
Optometrist
I'm really not sure. I've realized after being out of school a few years now.. no matter how nice/professional/courteous I am to certain patients, they're not going to return the favor. Does this make me stop being nice ? Nope. Granted, I do have to be more "short" with certain people but I just hope the friendly patients outweigh the occasional a-hole.

The vast majority of them do respect what I know. But, you will always get jerks who think they know more than you cuz they saw a commercial last night during "dancing with the stars" , talked to their "friend" , or have a family member who does X. You have to learn to roll with it.

I'd also agree that in a perfect world, firemen and teachers would make a LOT more money!

The "respect" definitely also has something to do with social status. Being a doctor, in some people's opinion, makes them part of an "elite" circle. Which, having a graduate level of education... usually does make you elite.
 

Jesus DO

10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Nov 15, 2007
403
0
Status
Medical Student
I took a few minutes and browsed through not only our forums, but a few of the other medical forums as well.

Why is there this seemingly unending need and quest for "respect?" There seems to be endless debates about which career, or college, or medical school, or medical specialty is more "respected" than the other?

Does any of this really matter to anyone?

It seems that for so many people, this is incredibly critical and I just don't understand where it comes from. Fact: Half the people in the country hate and don't respect the current president. Fact: Half the people in the country hated and didn't respect the LAST president. Fact: Half the people in the country will hate and not respect the next president.

Millions of people hate and don't respect the Pope. Millions of people hate and don't respect Bill Gates. Millions of people hate and don't respect doctors, lawyers, policemen, teachers, garbagemen, waiters, hotel maids, bartenders, etc. etc. etc.

Pretty much the only two jobs that seem to be universally respected are firemen and astronauts. (And I imagine that even most firemen feel that they aren't "respected" because they don't get paid that well.)

So if you're not in either one of those fields, you're pretty much going to be disrespected by a significant percentage of the population.

All things being equal, I guess I would like to be "admired" or "respected" by other people but at the end of the day, it really makes not a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Why is this such a burning issue for so many people?
Well...true..it may be something that our species is a social one. We're more like horses and sheep than we are cats - which are solitary creatures.

On the flip side, I think we've evolved to a point were - while we are indeed a social creature with heirarchy - we've achieved a cultural and philosphical advancment enough so that we realize: "Hey the king isn't anybody special - he's got to poop and pee just like I do. So why should we have to bow down and respect this dude anyway?"

So about 3,000 years ago they invented democracy. And in democracy - people still try to exert that primordial urge to dominate and be worshiped by others - even thought as a people they like to say that "we're all equal and we should love one another" - when in fact we work tirelessly to upsurp the rights and liberties of others....it might be in a hospital setting - or it may be at a national or world setting..etc.

We still have those old primordial genes telling us to go out there and dominate others. Hence we have unhappiness whenever someone puts us down or someone close to us down.

I think one of the key items here is to not let ourselves get eaten up by bitterness, and avoid letting those old primordial genes from expressing themselves too much...(I mean this in a figurative way - not a physiological way - for I do not think we can consciously turn off the genes we don't want expressed)
 

gochi

10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2006
1,105
0
I took a few minutes and browsed through not only our forums, but a few of the other medical forums as well.

Why is there this seemingly unending need and quest for "respect?" There seems to be endless debates about which career, or college, or medical school, or medical specialty is more "respected" than the other?

Does any of this really matter to anyone?

It seems that for so many people, this is incredibly critical and I just don't understand where it comes from. Fact: Half the people in the country hate and don't respect the current president. Fact: Half the people in the country hated and didn't respect the LAST president. Fact: Half the people in the country will hate and not respect the next president.

Millions of people hate and don't respect the Pope. Millions of people hate and don't respect Bill Gates. Millions of people hate and don't respect doctors, lawyers, policemen, teachers, garbagemen, waiters, hotel maids, bartenders, etc. etc. etc.

Pretty much the only two jobs that seem to be universally respected are firemen and astronauts. (And I imagine that even most firemen feel that they aren't "respected" because they don't get paid that well.)

So if you're not in either one of those fields, you're pretty much going to be disrespected by a significant percentage of the population.

All things being equal, I guess I would like to be "admired" or "respected" by other people but at the end of the day, it really makes not a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Why is this such a burning issue for so many people?
Because at the end of the day, you are only human in the eyes of others.
 

MariaMaria

10+ Year Member
Jun 27, 2007
115
0
Status
Pre-Optometry
I'd also agree that in a perfect world, firemen and teachers would make a LOT more money!

Teachers would be getting more money if any student could take advantage of a voucher. Reason being this: If students could pick any school they wanted to go to, most of the time they would pick a private school because they tend to be the best. This would in turn take away money from the public education and would ultimately eliminate most of them. Now if they were eliminated then private schools would start popping up and would start competing with each other which would drive down dramatically the cost of education for students. This would be good for students who can't get vouchers now and are in horribly failing schools districts. Teachers would not be protected by unions and therefore will work harder and will get raises based on their performance. Therefore my friends, teachers will get paid more.

Many of you I'm sure either never thought about this, disagree or don't care. Feel free to give send me your opinion on it if you do care.
 

jefguth

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Oct 11, 2004
819
0
British Columbia
Status
Optometrist
Teachers would be getting more money if any student could take advantage of a voucher. Reason being this: If students could pick any school they wanted to go to, most of the time they would pick a private school because they tend to be the best. This would in turn take away money from the public education and would ultimately eliminate most of them. Now if they were eliminated then private schools would start popping up and would start competing with each other which would drive down dramatically the cost of education for students. This would be good for students who can't get vouchers now and are in horribly failing schools districts. Teachers would not be protected by unions and therefore will work harder and will get raises based on their performance. Therefore my friends, teachers will get paid more.

Many of you I'm sure either never thought about this, disagree or don't care. Feel free to give send me your opinion on it if you do care.
That's a lot of hypotheticals falling into place for a perfect outcome. Doubt it would really work like that, and in the transition there might even be a good number of unemployed teachers.
 

coppertopdoc

10+ Year Member
May 25, 2007
37
0
Status
Optometrist
I am responding this based on what I perceive as your underlying premise that public schools don't work. You statement sounds as if it is a general characterization of all schools?

I agree that some changes need to be made in the public education system to make it better, but to eliminate them is probably not a realistic likelihood. I agree that students living in those districts should be able to receive vouchers to transfer out of there.

The problem with a lot (read-not all) of these schools are a product of a large population of students who do not have the familial and parental involvement in their academic pursuits necessary to succeed. Many parents send their kids to school expecting the system to raise them. That is not the prupose of the school and many of the problems that exist today are a result of that.

My wife is a high school science teacher who has her masters, is nationally board certified and has started working on her doctorate. She works her *** off to engage her students and try to kindle their interest in science as well as furthering their education beyond high school. She has been able to take poorly performing students and spend extra time to help them succeed. Almost without exception, if the parents are willing to be involved and support her efforts, she is able to help them improve their performance. In those instances where the parents don't care or don't respect her efforts, the students don't achieve as much success.

With my wife's work ethic and success in her career she would welcome pay for performance, but I don't agree that it would be effective in many of the systems to which you refer. We have a system nearby that has been on "the underperforming list" and the staff and administrators have worked hard to get them off the list.

I agree there are some educators that coast through, but to make a generalization about the work ethic of all public school teachers is irresponsible.

If I have misinterpreted the intent of your post or misunderstood any of your points I apologize.:)


Teachers would be getting more money if any student could take advantage of a voucher. Reason being this: If students could pick any school they wanted to go to, most of the time they would pick a private school because they tend to be the best. This would in turn take away money from the public education and would ultimately eliminate most of them. Now if they were eliminated then private schools would start popping up and would start competing with each other which would drive down dramatically the cost of education for students. This would be good for students who can't get vouchers now and are in horribly failing schools districts. Teachers would not be protected by unions and therefore will work harder and will get raises based on their performance. Therefore my friends, teachers will get paid more.

Many of you I'm sure either never thought about this, disagree or don't care. Feel free to give send me your opinion on it if you do care.
 

MariaMaria

10+ Year Member
Jun 27, 2007
115
0
Status
Pre-Optometry
I am responding this based on what I perceive as your underlying premise that public schools don't work. You statement sounds as if it is a general characterization of all schools?

I agree that some changes need to be made in the public education system to make it better, but to eliminate them is probably not a realistic likelihood. I agree that students living in those districts should be able to receive vouchers to transfer out of there.

The problem with a lot (read-not all) of these schools are a product of a large population of students who do not have the familial and parental involvement in their academic pursuits necessary to succeed. Many parents send their kids to school expecting the system to raise them. That is not the prupose of the school and many of the problems that exist today are a result of that.

My wife is a high school science teacher who has her masters, is nationally board certified and has started working on her doctorate. She works her *** off to engage her students and try to kindle their interest in science as well as furthering their education beyond high school. She has been able to take poorly performing students and spend extra time to help them succeed. Almost without exception, if the parents are willing to be involved and support her efforts, she is able to help them improve their performance. In those instances where the parents don't care or don't respect her efforts, the students don't achieve as much success.

With my wife's work ethic and success in her career she would welcome pay for performance, but I don't agree that it would be effective in many of the systems to which you refer. We have a system nearby that has been on "the underperforming list" and the staff and administrators have worked hard to get them off the list.

I agree there are some educators that coast through, but to make a generalization about the work ethic of all public school teachers is irresponsible.

If I have misinterpreted the intent of your post or misunderstood any of your points I apologize.:)
Many public schools that I meant to say don't work are the ones that are in failing districts. Those in turn are most likely not getting enough funding for whatever reason, ex levies not getting passed, etc. And who suffers, students because a lot of states won't approve vouchers.

My statement is, you're right, a general statement on how I think schools should be run. I would love it if the public schools worked better in the states but the fact is the quality could be so much higher.

I myself was going to become a teacher (I actually have my license) so I know how difficult it is to be in this field. It saddens me to see the lack of respect they get as well and I'm glad your wife is doing her best, kudos to her. The problem I noticed when I was doing my student teaching is that the younger teachers were excited and had many ideas... then the older the teacher got the less they cared. Not all older teachers are slackers so don't misunderstand me. It's just had a lot of them take advantage because they know they probably won't get fired because of the unions that protect them.

Eliminating public schools may not be the answer but if parents could use vouchers, I would guess the public schools would do better.... generally speaking. I think you would be interested in reading this article on how this works in Sweden. http://www.hoover.org/pubaffairs/dailyreport/archive/2849056.html

Now my opinions are very much on the right (politically speaking) but the system in Sweden I feel is in between.... again my opinion.

And thanks for replying and definitely not need to apologize... I enjoyed this:)
 

MariaMaria

10+ Year Member
Jun 27, 2007
115
0
Status
Pre-Optometry
That's a lot of hypotheticals falling into place for a perfect outcome. Doubt it would really work like that, and in the transition there might even be a good number of unemployed teachers.

You're right... lots of hypotheticals. But if it were possible then in my opinion there wouldn't be more unemployed teachers but more students in school.
 
OP
K

KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
Many public schools that I meant to say don't work are the ones that are in failing districts. Those in turn are most likely not getting enough funding for whatever reason, ex levies not getting passed, etc. And who suffers, students because a lot of states won't approve vouchers.

My statement is, you're right, a general statement on how I think schools should be run. I would love it if the public schools worked better in the states but the fact is the quality could be so much higher.

I myself was going to become a teacher (I actually have my license) so I know how difficult it is to be in this field. It saddens me to see the lack of respect they get as well and I'm glad your wife is doing her best, kudos to her. The problem I noticed when I was doing my student teaching is that the younger teachers were excited and had many ideas... then the older the teacher got the less they cared. Not all older teachers are slackers so don't misunderstand me. It's just had a lot of them take advantage because they know they probably won't get fired because of the unions that protect them.

Eliminating public schools may not be the answer but if parents could use vouchers, I would guess the public schools would do better.... generally speaking. I think you would be interested in reading this article on how this works in Sweden. http://www.hoover.org/pubaffairs/dailyreport/archive/2849056.html

Now my opinions are very much on the right (politically speaking) but the system in Sweden I feel is in between.... again my opinion.

And thanks for replying and definitely not need to apologize... I enjoyed this:)
I strongly disagree with this. I taught math and science in public AND private schools. The Swedish experience is often cited by conservative organizations like the Hoover institute but fail to point out a huge number of differences:

1) In Sweden, the population is much more homogeneous than here in the USA
2) Sweden has much broader and far reaching social programs than here in the USA
3) Swedish kids are streamed at a much younger age than here. As such, you can't compare a 10 grade math student from Sweden with a 10 grade student in the USA because the Swedish student has been studying more advanced mathematics from a much younger age.

American schools that struggle struggle for almost universally the same reasons...The first being that far too many of them have a significant number of children that come from broken, abusive, poverty filled environments. If I have a student that comes to school hungry, and who's father is in jail, and who's mother has to work 3 jobs to support the family, that student is already a significant disadvantage. No amount of "privatization" or "school choice" is going to solve that problem.

The second being that public schools in the USA are bounded by a myriad of federal, state and local regulations and mandates that require public schools to attempt to educate even the most incorrigible of students right up to the age of 21. Private schools are not bound by this same cumbersome set of mandates. I can say with absolute certainty that if you allow me to cherry pick my school of students, I will produce for you a high performing school full of winners. As a teacher, I was all for "competition" and I would gladly put up my teaching skills against ANY teacher, public, private or parochial. However, it has to be a level playing field. You can't expect me, or any teacher to produce the same results with a class made of students who aren't sure where their next meal is coming from as you would with a class from Buckhead, Georgetown, Park Avenue, or Beverly Hills. To borrow an old axiom from computer science....garbage in = garbage out.

The third being that from a cultural perspective, education and academic achievement is simply not valued or revered in this country. Walk into any office in the country during the month of March and I would bet that a huge number of people could name the starting roster of at least half of the teams in the NCAA basketball tournament but less than 2% could name this years Nobel prize winners in any category. As long as people care more about the ability to "rush the passer" or the ability to put a small ball into a large hoop than the ability to solve a quadratic equation or write a persuasive essay, then you are going to continue to see schools struggle. "Competition" is great because schools will clamor all over themselves to improve their football programs so that their school beats the cross town rival, and the whole town will turn out at the games on Friday night and the local newspaper will breathlessly cover the tweaked knee of the starting QB or point guard, but no one wants to watch any of the competition at the debate team, the science fair, or the geography bee. All the school choice in the world isn't going to improve that.

My political leanings are mostly right as well. However, this notion of school choice as it currently stands in the USA is doomed to failure, in my opinion because they will do nothing to improve poorly perform schools and the reality of most of the voucher programs is that they are little more than thinly disguised vehicles to shift public money into religious education. Now, I actually have NO problem with that whatsoever. But lets at least call a spade a spade here.
 

rodomon

10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jun 6, 2007
36
0
Status
Respect:

You feel valued by others around you and can go to sleep at night with a smile on your face. Gift baskets at Christmas from patients are kind of nice; having a patient tell you they value your services is infinitely better. They respect that you provided them with a service that benefited them.

You earned a professional degree. Anyone who does that deserves some respect for their perseverance, self-control, and willingness to put short-term enjoyment on hold for long-term benefits, even if they did so for purely selfish reasons.

You can get out of speeding tickets and other such situations more easily (more applicable to MDs because they are probably the most respected profession on Earth).

(An MD example, from people I know who were there: many of the Iraqi leaders who were captured by US forces were very condescending and extremely obstinate to the soldiers and others around them. However, when an MD entered the room, even the most powerful and egomaniacal rulers of Iraq would stand in deference and cooperate. Out of respect. So it at least has some real-world utility.)

No respect:

MDs you refer patients to think you are beneath them and tell you so to your face. They tell your patients to go to ophthalmologists rather than that guy who can only perform refractions.

You go home and watch TV all evening rather than doing service works in the community which will give you respect.


I think you're wrong about so many people being disrespected (Pope, Gates, etc). I think a lot of people might disagree or even despise them, but they still respect them. Why? Because they've risen above; they've outperformed others. If someone beat me at something, I might be mad about it and perhaps even dislike them, but I still respect them, because they were good at it (or at least better than me).

In the end, respect is a guiding social norm. If you do something to help others or exemplify yourself positively in some way (usually through a combination of intelligence and more importantly, effort), you will often gain respect. You can argue specifics forever, but it often works out that way. While many might pursue respect out of personal reasons, if it causes you to improve the lives of others in the process, I can't see how it could be so bad.

Can it be overly desired? Of course. In fact, for 90% of the pre-med students I knew, it was their major reason for wanting to become MDs. (Which was actually one of the many factors that turned me away from medical school; I thought people went into it to help others, and I was rather disgusted at their singularity of only caring about respect. Then again, respect was also the one thing that almost kept me on my med-school route. Respect just feels so nice.) However, any other aspiration in life can also be pursued too aggressively. It's all about balance, and respect is usually a beneficial goal, both to others and yourself, to have in life.
 

ProZackMI

Psychiatrist/Attorney
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2005
614
16
Michigan
Status
Attending Physician
Ken,

There is no simple answer to your question. You're asking a group of educated human beings why respect is important to us. Is there a true answer to this question? No. Why? Because we are all different, from different backgrounds, ethnicities, races, cultures, schools, states, etc. We all have some things in common, and perhaps our desire to be respected is one of them.

Professionally, each one of us wants to feel we made the right choice by selecting the profession we did. We spent a great deal of time and money to prepare for a career in health care. We want others to recognize our efforts by acknowledging the importance of what we do and what we did to get to do what we do.

No matter how mature we think we are, each one of us compared ourselves to others, our significant others to others, our schools to other schools, our grades to other students' grades, our possessions to the possessions of friends, and the prestige of our careers to the careers of others. It's human nature to compare. In the OD surg residency post, I made reference to the jealous child syndrome. This is no different.

When I was in medical school, I thought my you-know-what didn't stink and I thought I was in the best profession. The girl I was dating left me for a guy who finished his MBA from some Ivy school and was making six figures. I was humbled quickly. Some flunky with a mere master's (and non-science related at that) is making six big ones while I'm studying pathophys and pharmacology with no social life, no money, etc. Then I heard about his new BMW while I drove my broken down Camry around campus. Yeah, comparison is natural and so is seeking approval.

The biggest trend I see on SDN is "doctoritis". Every single one of these professions (allo, osteo, dental, opto, vet, pharm, pod, psych, and now PTs and audios) want to be doctors. These kids want that title, that white coat, and by God, that will make them respected by others. WRONG. If you want the respect and admiration of your patients/clients/co-workers, friends, colleagues, peers, whoever, you must earn it. You do this by taking pride in your work and doing it well. You achieve respect and admiration by treating all people the way you wish to be treated. You don't get respect by belittling other people or their chosen professions. You don't respect by being a pompous tool calling yourself Dr. So-and-so to everyone, appending your degree after your name everywhere, and wearing your white coat into the store to impress others. Be nice to people, act like you would normally act around everyone (with some social adjustments).

Just go to other forums (fora) on SDN. Do a search under "doctor" or "real doctor" and see what you get.

-- Are ODs real doctors?
-- Can PharmDs be called Dr.?
-- DPTs calling themselves Dr..
-- The DNP "dr nurse"

WHO CARES? SO FREAKIN WHAT? If it's not your career, why do you care? Is that title so freakin important? Is that why some of you are going into opto or med or dentistry, so you can be called Dr.? You can buy a doctorate online for 100 bucks and not go through years of misery if that's all you want. NOBODY CARES about your title!

The next trend you see on SDN is "HOW MUCH MONEY WILL I MAKE!" Well, if you're going into a profession, you should have an inkling of your student loan debt, the length of your educational requirements, and your projected post grad income. It shouldn't be a shock to some that dentists make a heap right after D school, pharms make a good living right out of school, and vets make jack squat 10 years after being in practice. I don't care if you're an MSPT or DPT, a PT will not make much money in life. I don't care if you have a PhD from Harvard in clinical psych, most psychologists will never earn as much as a psychiatrist who went to the University of Bangalore and got an MBBS. So what? How much money you make, or could make, should not be the reason you are doing what you're doing. It's part of it, but if that's your only reason...then...you will fail.

Another trend: who's profession is superior? Of course, the allos think they are God because in the US, we put medicine up on the top of the health care hierarchy. For all of you med students, did you know in most countries in Europe, a physician is considered to be a mere "body mechanic" and not a true doctor? Only in the US and Canada are physicians given God-like status. Surgeons look down on PCPs and IMs. Everyone in the medical community looks down on psychiatry. Osteos are close behind the allos and put down pods and dentists. Newsflash DOs -- it's harder to get into most vet and dental schools than it is most osteo med schools. Optos put down pharmacists and call them pill counters; psychologists call the psychiatrists pill pushers; chiros are quacks; optos are dial spinners and techs, etc. It's true. Look around and you'll see it. Putting down profession A does not uplift profession B.

I stopped going around puffing myself up and stroking my ego with the Dr. title about a year after my residency. I was at an expensive restaurant with my girlfriend and I had reservations for "Dr. S". When my table got called, a well-dressed guy and his wife behind us laughed and said, quite audibly, "arrogant prick". It made me think: he's right. At that time, I was just another customer -- who cares what my title is when I'm out to eat?!? So, after that, unless I was at work, I was just Zack. Later, when I hit 30 or 31, I stopped insisting my patients call me Dr. It actually makes them feel more comfortable if I'm just Zack (well, except for the older patients who feel more comfortable with titles).

Here on SDN, you really see this ridiculous quest for status and respect. Get over yourselves -- whether you're a med student, an OD student, or a practicing whatever. You have a doctorate, are well-educated, and you are smart. Does this make you better than the garbage collector, waiter, or receptionist? Do you really think your title impresses people? I got news: no one will give a rat's a$$ that you have MD, DO, DDS, DVM, OD, or JD after your name when they call to collect on your student loans, when you go to pay your parking ticket, when you call customer service about your down cable, or when you're the patient.

Your white coat will never make people like you if you're rude, arrogant, or insensitive. Your keen clinical skills will seem irrelevant if your patients perceive you as cold and uncaring.

True respect is not extrinsic; it is intrinsic and it comes from your heart and soul, not your bank account, gross income, location of your clinic, number of your degrees, or length of your white coat. Whether you work in a strip mall or university-based teaching hospital, the respect you want to earn is the respect that's sincere and genuine, not superficial.

So, before I end this lengthy diatribe, regardless of who you are or what you do, get over yourself and be a gentle, down-to-Earth, sincere person and treat your patients with kindness, friendliness, and RESPECT. They are human beings, not diagnoses. They are people with families, lives, and dreams just like you. They are not dollar signs or room numbers, they are not ICD codes or DSM-IV mutlaxial codes.

I went to medical school at Michigan State Univ (College of Human Med not Osteo Med). MSU is big rivals with University of Michigan. It was sort of a thing around MSU that many of us only went to MSU because we couldn't get into UM. Personally, I never cared about this, but many students did. One day in one of my classes, the professor overheard this girl talk about wanting to transfer to UM Med School and made some comment about how much better UM grads are perceived. The professor looked at her and said "Tell me, Ms. Jones, if you're in an MVA and sustain critical injuries and get rushed to a hospital, are you or your family going to stop the trauma surgeon and say, 'BTW, doc, where did you go: MSU or UM', or will you just hope and pray that whoever operates on you went to medical school and knows what he/she is doing?" The girl stared blankly. The point he was making, who cares where you went, what your degree is (MD, DO, DVM, PharmD, OD, AuD), in the end, what really counts is your professional skills and your personal qualities; that is what gets you respect.

Respectfully,
Zack
 

Jay12

10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Mar 21, 2007
243
0
Canada
Status
Optometry Student
ProZackMI...that was a really well thought out response...kudos :thumbup:
 
OP
K

KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
Ken,

There is no simple answer to your question.

Respectfully,
Zack
Zack,

I am sure that you are going to be a successful attorney. Every single one of your postings is incredibly massive. :cool:
 

ProZackMI

Psychiatrist/Attorney
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2005
614
16
Michigan
Status
Attending Physician
Zack,

I am sure that you are going to be a successful attorney. Every single one of your postings is incredibly massive. :cool:
Thanks! I like your surgically shortened version much better though. Maybe you WOULD make a good surgeon: you cut right to the heart of the matter and bypass all of the extraneous verbosity. That, indeed, is a skill I need to learn. Unfortunately, both of my professions are "talking" ones.

Peace,
Zack
 

Teia

Time not on my side
10+ Year Member
Apr 29, 2008
2
0
Status
Optometry Student
Zack,

I am sure that you are going to be a successful attorney. Every single one of your postings is incredibly massive. :cool:
Hi! A lurker here. I just couldn't help but notice this thread and would like to poke fun at KHE for this post simply because for someone questioning the need for respect, he sure has a lot of badges. :laugh:
 

prettygreeneyes

Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,122
1
Guarded by Ninjas
Status
Optometry Student
Hi! A lurker here. I just couldn't help but notice this thread and would like to poke fun at KHE for this post simply because for someone questioning the need for respect, he sure has a lot of badges. :laugh:
Good point!!! I forgot about the badge war between Dr. Chudner and KHE. Good times...
 
OP
K

KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
Hi! A lurker here. I just couldn't help but notice this thread and would like to poke fun at KHE for this post simply because for someone questioning the need for respect, he sure has a lot of badges. :laugh:
Well....that wasn't me craving respect. I just wanted to rub Chudner's nose in it!!! Bwaaaaahahahahaha! :smuggrin::thumbup::smuggrin:
 

IndianaOD

10+ Year Member
Feb 14, 2007
1,148
3
Status
Optometrist
Zack, that is one of the best posts I've ever read on SDN. Stuff of that quality is not common around here.

Ken, the only comment about respect I have is it may matter when it comes to getting on insurance panels and in legislative battles.

I frequently struggle whether to introduce myself at "Dr" vs just my name. Some still seem to expect it. Plus to be completely honest I try to seperate myself from the spin and grin ODs who many don't even think are doctors.
 

Framecontrol

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Aug 1, 2007
158
1
Status
Optometry Student
That was very interesting to read considering I still have one year left of undergrad. Zack really put lots of things into perspective and kind of took the words out of my mouth...

Your sense of validation and respect from others is an emotion that is constantly pumping inside of you, yet its just not the emotions we were taught to recognize.

Too often people need an external source of validation Ex) their title as Dr.

The individual who is internally validated, and brings their mental state from their core sense of self, that is the person who is often respected and who respects others simply for who they are.

Learn to live without validation, especially external validation. It is then that you will consistently be happy, respected, and peaceful. Going inside yourself and truly knowing 100% your values, standards, passions, and who your really are in the moment- that is internal validation... That is when NO MATTER what happens on the outside you know who you are, what your all about, where you are going and NO ONE can tell you different. When you are internally centered you don't flinch at people remarks, and IE)you don't get nervous at interviews.

Become congruent with yourself and you belief systems, constantly question what they are and where you are at.

Draw your state from within yourself, not what is going on outside.
 

hello07

10+ Year Member
Aug 17, 2007
389
18
Status
Optometrist
In addition to all the aforementioned, which every one makes good points, my personal experience is those doctors whether it be MD/ OD/ DDS/ DPM etc.......who are not hung up on titles, are not arrogant or cocky/ and are so down to earth happen to be the most clinically competent docs out there. Trust me, doctors who communicate and empathasize with each and every individual happen to be the best skilled docs out there.
Those with ego and lack of communication from what I have seen and experienced are garbage. A good amount should not be practicing b/c tey don't even know how to be human first and then doc second.
Any field, any healthcare profession....................I guarantee you will see it out there.
 

Richard_Hom

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 29, 2003
518
0
San Mateo, CA
Visit site
Status
I took a few minutes and browsed through not only our forums, but a few of the other medical forums as well.

Why is there this seemingly unending need and quest for "respect?" '...

KHE,
I've followed this thread a bit and I have to say that as optometrists it is true that we may have to overcome a little bias on the part of some providers.

But I would like to relay my own experiences as provide on the staff of a 350 bed hospital in a community of 120,000 in one of the most prosperous counties in California, but serving 80,000 under insured on uninsured patients.

1. In my first year, I was never approached by any primary eye care provider for any kind of eye question or problem.

2. During the first year, I asked my optometric colleagues to dictate their findings, something which was a standard in the medical center, but never taken up by optometry. This one single step brought optometry into the forefront. Thereafter, we weren't ignored but still sought out sparingly.

3. In the second year, I started up a digital photographic screening program for diabetics and was able to assure the primary care providers the relevance and rationale for this program. I met individually with over 80 primary care providers and answered their questions patiently. This wasn't overlooked in later times, because I took the time to listen to their concerns or interests

4. In the 3rd years and afterwards, the emergency medical department wanted me to initially evaluate and stabilize all of their eye patients. The ED was filled to capacity and if they could immediately refer their patients to me, that saved 4-6 hours in the ED for the doctors and for the patient. The Medical Director of the ED conferred with the Chiefs of Ophthalmology and Primary Care Medicine and with their careful scrutiny of my case outcomes, it equaled their expectations and requirements.

5. The last phase of some kind of "acceptance' was my submission to the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee for new eye medications which is a feat in itself (no optometrist had done this before). I sat before representatives of ED, Internal Medicine, Medical Specialties Department and Pharmacy (total of 7 physicians) and weathered 15-20 questions over 20 minutes.

6. Admittedly, no provider should never be granted any kind of respect just because of their veneer, but should be granted as such by their behavior, their intelligence and their heart. Optometrists do have to perform to a higher level of expectation than others who may be granted that kind of respect just by a paper, but that is the mantle that I expect to carry without regret. I just enjoy what I do at this time of my career.
 

Ben Chudner

Senior Member
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2005
923
3
Rochester, NY
Status
Optometrist
Well....that wasn't me craving respect. I just wanted to rub Chudner's nose in it!!! Bwaaaaahahahahaha! :smuggrin::thumbup::smuggrin:
I almost missed this post. KHE's multiple badges only help to prove that it's not the number of titles you have that earns you respect.:p Obviously, this is all in good fun. In fact, KHE and I met up in New York and he has so much respect for me that he wouldn't let me pay for dinner. So I say give him all the badges he wants!;)
 
OP
K

KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
Dr. Hom,

Thank you for your reply. The original intent of my posting was to point out that the pursuit of respect from the general public, parents, family members etc. is somewhat pointless.

You have framed it in the context of respect from other providers, which to me is somewhat of a separate issue. You have earned what you have earned in your environment through persistence, and patience which is likely far beyond what most optometrists would be able to muster. For that you should be commended.

However, I think that even you would admit that your practice environment is incredibly unique. Perhaps over time, it will change but as of now, the overwhelming majority of optometrists are working in private practice, or commercial settings. As such, it is more difficult to cultivate the types of relationships with other providers.

We have discussed this before on other threads, and I agree with you that the biggest reason for this is the fact that medical students, and residents of all specialties are highly unlikely to ever encounter an optometrist as part of their training but they are very likely to encounter other "non-MD" type providers. Because of that, those providers are more likely to get more deference than optometrists ever have. Since optometry has historically not been hospital based in practice or training, this problem is likely to continue for the foreseeable future. Until optometrists start working and/or training more alongside our MD/DO counterparts we will never become integrated into the health care delivery team and will continue to operate on the fringes. This isn't a problem that will go away in a short amount of time, and sometimes I wonder if it will even go away during my professional life time and I'm a fairly young doctor.



KHE,
I've followed this thread a bit and I have to say that as optometrists it is true that we may have to overcome a little bias on the part of some providers.

But I would like to relay my own experiences as provide on the staff of a 350 bed hospital in a community of 120,000 in one of the most prosperous counties in California, but serving 80,000 under insured on uninsured patients.

1. In my first year, I was never approached by any primary eye care provider for any kind of eye question or problem.

2. During the first year, I asked my optometric colleagues to dictate their findings, something which was a standard in the medical center, but never taken up by optometry. This one single step brought optometry into the forefront. Thereafter, we weren't ignored but still sought out sparingly.

3. In the second year, I started up a digital photographic screening program for diabetics and was able to assure the primary care providers the relevance and rationale for this program. I met individually with over 80 primary care providers and answered their questions patiently. This wasn't overlooked in later times, because I took the time to listen to their concerns or interests

4. In the 3rd years and afterwards, the emergency medical department wanted me to initially evaluate and stabilize all of their eye patients. The ED was filled to capacity and if they could immediately refer their patients to me, that saved 4-6 hours in the ED for the doctors and for the patient. The Medical Director of the ED conferred with the Chiefs of Ophthalmology and Primary Care Medicine and with their careful scrutiny of my case outcomes, it equaled their expectations and requirements.

5. The last phase of some kind of "acceptance' was my submission to the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee for new eye medications which is a feat in itself (no optometrist had done this before). I sat before representatives of ED, Internal Medicine, Medical Specialties Department and Pharmacy (total of 7 physicians) and weathered 15-20 questions over 20 minutes.

6. Admittedly, no provider should never be granted any kind of respect just because of their veneer, but should be granted as such by their behavior, their intelligence and their heart. Optometrists do have to perform to a higher level of expectation than others who may be granted that kind of respect just by a paper, but that is the mantle that I expect to carry without regret. I just enjoy what I do at this time of my career.
 

Richard_Hom

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
May 29, 2003
518
0
San Mateo, CA
Visit site
Status
KHE,

The second part of my thoughts is that the outcome of such provider acceptance is through them to their patients about me. I have heard time and time again, that primary care medicine referring patients to me specifically by name. That is what is needed also in optometry.

All of this can also be obtained with PP but does require personal interactions.
 
OP
K

KHE

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2005
3,335
324
Status
Optometrist
KHE,

The second part of my thoughts is that the outcome of such provider acceptance is through them to their patients about me. I have heard time and time again, that primary care medicine referring patients to me specifically by name. That is what is needed also in optometry.

.
I beleive that this problem will NOT get any better until optometric education gets better in the sense that optometric education has to start being integrated into the overall health care education system. It can not continue to operate on the fringes. As long as it does, student physicians and residents will never encounter an optometrist, they will never see what optometrists are capable of, and they will never consider optometry to be a viable referal option when they get out of their training.

You have overcome the problem for the most part in your situation because of an incredible amount of persistence and your practice modality at least gives you some contact with other providers other tham ophthalmologists. Most practicing ODs don't have the same opportunity. As tough as it was for you to climb that mountain, at least you were around other physicians. For most optometrists in commercial or private practice, that interaction is even more difficult to cultivate so it's a problem that really needs to be solved from the bottom up.
 

SightIsPrecious

10+ Year Member
Dec 29, 2006
28
0
Status
Post Doc
..they will never see what optometrists are capable of, and they will never consider optometry to be a viable referal option when they get out of their training.
I’ve observed a good way to build relationships with other physicians, become an integral part of the health care team, and work to benefit both patients and eye care practices… It is for the ODs to take the effort to introduce themselves and the medical services they provide to the family medicine practices in the area. There are many smaller, stand-alone family medicine practices which are not part of medical professional buildings with eye clinics to refer patients with medical eye problems to. Take some business cards, stop by some of the practices in your area with a friendly hello, and explain to the family med docs of the types of eye care emergency and general eye care services that you provide (FB removals, uveitis, monitoring retinal health for diabetics and plaquenil users, etc.). Yes-- this is kind of like “cold calling”, but I don’t see how other non-ophtho MDs/DOs will form relationships with ODs if they simply do nothing. Not ALL of the physicians that you make a visit to will immediately form a patient base with you, but a portion of the docs will start referring patients to you instead of blindly (and I say “blindly” because they do not have slit lamps and diagnostic tools to see what’s going on in the eye in detail) treat all “red eyes” with some antibiotic drop. And when you dictate letters to them explaining each referred patient’s progress, they will appreciate and trust your skills as an eye care provider.
 

coppertopdoc

10+ Year Member
May 25, 2007
37
0
Status
Optometrist
I’ve observed a good way to build relationships with other physicians, become an integral part of the health care team, and work to benefit both patients and eye care practices… It is for the ODs to take the effort to introduce themselves and the medical services they provide to the family medicine practices in the area. There are many smaller, stand-alone family medicine practices which are not part of medical professional buildings with eye clinics to refer patients with medical eye problems to. Take some business cards, stop by some of the practices in your area with a friendly hello, and explain to the family med docs of the types of eye care emergency and general eye care services that you provide (FB removals, uveitis, monitoring retinal health for diabetics and plaquenil users, etc.). Yes-- this is kind of like “cold calling”, but I don’t see how other non-ophtho MDs/DOs will form relationships with ODs if they simply do nothing. Not ALL of the physicians that you make a visit to will immediately form a patient base with you, but a portion of the docs will start referring patients to you instead of blindly (and I say “blindly” because they do not have slit lamps and diagnostic tools to see what’s going on in the eye in detail) treat all “red eyes” with some antibiotic drop. And when you dictate letters to them explaining each referred patient’s progress, they will appreciate and trust your skills as an eye care provider.
You can make progress that way, but it is slow to produce results. I have done this in the past and the GP's were still taking FB's out and treating red eyes. And, in the event they couldn't handle it, they would refer that patient to an OMD. This was after substantial effort to provide a letter to them after seeing a mutual patient.

I would have to agree with KHE that it will take more permanent change in the educational relationship optometry has with the rest of medicine.