Why would anyone go to an Ivy League Med School ?

[drguy22]

Robert Wood has a pretty good reputation as a medical school and research institution. It was originally the med school of Rutgers U (but had to drop the name because apparently the state did not consider it fair for RWJ to benefit from the Rutgers association and not NJMS). NJMS is not as well recognized and does not support much research if any. They are both NJ state schools though so the actual training you get I'm sure is comparable.

where did u get the info that NJMS doesnt support any research? NJMS has over 100million dollars in research and tats growing as well..as it gets its new cancer institute and new ambulatory care center......i sure would like to know where you get the facts from...

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[drguy22]

knight12 and Archerona..pls take a look at the RWJMS or NJMS thread for some FACTS.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Honestly, I don't know why people knock Michigan. It's a great place to study medicine, and 99% of my classmates would heartily agree with that assessment. Every conceivable opportunity, short of the attractions of life in the big city, exists here.

I think it has something to do with the OPs post on the first page:

"that is a load of crap .. Michigan is a better med school than virtually all private med schools in the nation and I would bet they match better than almost every private school in the nation."

This is all just a response to that.

And I dont want to belabor this point much longer, since I was really only responding to SugarPhosphate for that one post-- but there are enough people on SDN saying that there is something fishy about UM matching out of that region that I think most people realize something is going on. More than half the class is generally out of state, so the general rules about state schools (with 90%+ in-state students) matching back into their state don't necessarily imply. Also, I dont think I am inclined to believe that all those California and NY students suddenly fell in love with the midwest and decided to stay there-- there is no doubt in my mind that there are students who did fall in love with the midwest and decided to stay, but the majority probaby went to UM for the whole purpose of matching back to the coasts.

In any case, the truth of the matter is likely to lie within the extremes being presented here. I'm just really responding to the OP's contention, and don't really care about this issue enough to want to keep arguing about it. But I hope UM becomes more upfront to its out of state applicants about matching, because there definitely seems to be a view that out of staters who go there from Cali or NY will be able to match back to their home states after graduating, which does not seem to be the case here. Something is fishy, I just cant put my finger on it.

 

[O'doyleRules]

Alrighty folks, here is the deal. As a third year I will weigh in on the topic, as I am closer to the match and many of my friends have already/are now going through it in a variety of specialties. Elias514 has made some great arguments, but is only a first year and really doesn't know the criteria by which things are judged. For fairness sake, I'm a student at P&S and I turned down my very good state school to come here.

When interviewees come here, I tell them to look at the quality of the match lists at the school, because really one of the most important aspects of a medical school is where it's going to match you. Match lists are an indication of how residency directors view the quality of that medical school, because lets be real, you can't get a good idea of how good an applicant is over an interview day, only that they are not currently floridly psychotic. They are more banking on that student coming out of a certain school, which they think of highly or have had successful residents come from in the past. That is why P&S students match so well, because programs have had Columbia students in the past who were clinical superstars, and will take a shot with their younger collegues. While most medical schools have stellar applicants with great GPAs and MCAT scores, no all medical schools have great match lists, which is telling.

In looking at Yale's match list, referenced earlier in the post, I was extremely impressed. That is a match list that not many schools, if any, can top. Their graduates went to quality programs at quality hospitals. When I look at Michigan's match list, I am not as impressed. That is not to discount Elias514's arguments that UMICH has great programs and its students must be great to get into them, which to some extend is true; about 1/3 of P&S students stay at Columbia for residency, which is some part because the program is good and some parts because you get a home team advantage coming from that program's school. But, taken as whole, Michigan's match list is still not in the same league as Yale's or P&S's from the standpoint of quality programs specific to each residency specialty field. It's really not even close. Yale students match better in every specialty across the board, from internal medicine to ortho to peds to derm.

So, why would you choose the ivy league school over a state school? Because every door is open for you, and coming from michigan they may not be. Reverse how you are looking at the match list controversy and see where the residents at the top programs in the field you are considering went to medical school -- it is all ivies. If you are applying to the top programs that are the most competitive, you might not even have a shot coming from a state school no matter how qualified you are, because they will take students from more highly regarded medical schools. If you in the middle of the pack (or the bottom) at your state school, you are even more limited in your options, while at an ivy league school, every residency program is still within your grasp. I am by no means at the top of my class, but I still consider any program in the highly-competitive surgical subspecialty I am applying in to be a good shot for me; if I had the same record at a state school, I wouldn't even be matching and would have to consider a different career.

If you want to go be a community medicine doctor in private practice, a state school is probably a fine choice. But, if you want to work at CHOP, you better go to the ivy league school. If you want a competitive residency program, the ivy league school will give you a better opportunity to get in. Whether or not this is a fair way of doing it is still debateable. The residents that I have worked with at Columbia come from the best of the ivy league medical schools overall, and are superstars. The residents I have worked with at other hospitals have come from the state programs, and are not as good as the Columbia residents. Not proof, but take that as you will. Enjoy.

 

[cytoborg]

I just plain liked the private school better. I did get into several very sought-after schools in my home state, but felt that this "other" school would be a unique opportunity to go out of state and see something different for a change, plus there were several aspects of the school and curriculum that I really liked, which my home schools didn't offer. Another big thing was fin aid as someone mentioned. The financial aid at my school is so good that I will graduate with much less debt than I would have, had I stayed at one of my state schools.

As for the role that reputation/name and match list history plays in the residency process, I'd say that med school is like a lot of other things - you get out of it what you put into it. Just because the school has produced numerous superstars that went on to big name residencies doesn't mean that you will, too. You still have to work your ass off. Some might argue that you have to work that much harder to compete with classmates who are all functioning at an extremely high level. Not only to get the best grades in the class, get AOA, etc., but also to get interviews for residency programs (say there are 10 from your class applying in derm, MGH is probably not going to invite all 10 of you). I guess what I'm saying is that there are no guarantees, and it's probably better to choose a school based on whether you are going to be happy and productive.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Your comments assume that EVERY ONE that attends Michigan for med school wants to match into a competitive specialty at a reputable academic center. This assumption is patently false. One of the the only unifying characteristic of the students (in my class anyways) is that we all want to become excellent physicians, but there are many different ways to achieve that goal. Undoubtedly a large proportion of my class is comprised of individuals who want to specialize, serve their residency at a prestigious academic center, become national leaders in their field, etc. BUT there are many people who do NOT want to take that route; some individuals just want to take the private practice route, avoiding research and academics like the plague--that's a fact. Consequently, it's not surprising that every year Michigan graduates people who go into "noncompetitive specialties at noncompetitive places." Believe it or not, med students here choose specialties because they're passionate about them and residency programs that fit their goals and personal needs. The notion that everybody at Michigan wants to go to a high powered institution in a competitive specialty is just ridiculous. One need only spend a few weeks with my classmates to figure that one out.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that many of the very best students at Michigan elect to stay here for residency. There are people who make AOA who stick around for Michigan. I graduated from college Phi Beta Kappa and with a 4.0 and there's no way in hell I'd make AOA here--those people are freakin academic demigods. Christ, the average scores on exams here are the equivalent of an A and we're pass/fail right now! Undoubtedly people who make AOA here can go anywhere and do anything they want; the fact that they stay is a testament to the quality of the training programs here.

Honestly, I don't know why people knock Michigan. It's a great place to study medicine, and 99% of my classmates would heartily agree with that assessment. Every conceivable opportunity, short of the attractions of life in the big city, exists here.

The basic problem with your arguments is that they're extremely weak and apply to every other top-10 med school just as much as they apply to Michigan. Again, do you think students at UCSF don't largely come from stellar backgrounds? Do you think some students at Yale don't end up deciding that they don't want to spend time working as slaves as "Osler's marines" in IM at Hopkins? Do you have any evidence to support the premise that Michigan gets more students who aren't concerned with prestigious residencies than any other top-10 school?

Your argument is really kind of silly-- because why would a person who is interested in primary care at a community center choose to go to high-prestige school like Michigan in the first-place? Students who attend top med schools have already been selected for extremely-high-drive and extreme drive to be leaders. There is always some number who burn out or who decide they want out of the race to focus on family or a life or whatever, but this happens at every top med school. You still have not provided any specific reason for why Michigan would have more people matching at non-competitive places than its academically equivalent med schools. And, also, this is perhaps a somewhat circular argument, but just the fact that you have a decent number of UMich med students posting that they feel impaired in their ability to make it to a prestigious program supports the fact that the match list is a little weak precisely because some people are not able to get what they want due to a poorly conceived clinical grading policy.

 

[cytoborg]

why would a person who is interested in primary care at a community center choose to go to high-prestige school like Michigan in the first-place? Students who attend top med schools have already been selected for extremely-high-drive and extreme drive to be leaders.

There are lots of reasons someone interested in community-based primary care (as I was) would choose a "high-prestige school." I mentioned a few of them in my above post. Suggesting that students interested in primary care are not extremely motivated and do not have extreme drive to be leaders is treading on some pretty thin ice.

 

[elias514]

Alrighty folks, here is the deal. As a third year I will weigh in on the topic, as I am closer to the match and many of my friends have already/are now going through it in a variety of specialties. Elias514 has made some great arguments, but is only a first year and really doesn't know the criteria by which things are judged. For fairness sake, I'm a student at P&S and I turned down my very good state school to come here.

When interviewees come here, I tell them to look at the quality of the match lists at the school, because really one of the most important aspects of a medical school is where it's going to match you. Match lists are an indication of how residency directors view the quality of that medical school, because lets be real, you can't get a good idea of how good an applicant is over an interview day, only that they are not currently floridly psychotic. They are more banking on that student coming out of a certain school, which they think of highly or have had successful residents come from in the past. That is why P&S students match so well, because programs have had Columbia students in the past who were clinical superstars, and will take a shot with their younger collegues. While most medical schools have stellar applicants with great GPAs and MCAT scores, no all medical schools have great match lists, which is telling.

In looking at Yale's match list, referenced earlier in the post, I was extremely impressed. That is a match list that not many schools, if any, can top. Their graduates went to quality programs at quality hospitals. When I look at Michigan's match list, I am not as impressed. That is not to discount Elias514's arguments that UMICH has great programs and its students must be great to get into them, which to some extend is true; about 1/3 of P&S students stay at Columbia for residency, which is some part because the program is good and some parts because you get a home team advantage coming from that program's school. But, taken as whole, Michigan's match list is still not in the same league as Yale's or P&S's from the standpoint of quality programs specific to each residency specialty field. It's really not even close. Yale students match better in every specialty across the board, from internal medicine to ortho to peds to derm.

So, why would you choose the ivy league school over a state school? Because every door is open for you, and coming from michigan they may not be. Reverse how you are looking at the match list controversy and see where the residents at the top programs in the field you are considering went to medical school -- it is all ivies. If you are applying to the top programs that are the most competitive, you might not even have a shot coming from a state school no matter how qualified you are, because they will take students from more highly regarded medical schools. If you in the middle of the pack (or the bottom) at your state school, you are even more limited in your options, while at an ivy league school, every residency program is still within your grasp. I am by no means at the top of my class, but I still consider any program in the highly-competitive surgical subspecialty I am applying in to be a good shot for me; if I had the same record at a state school, I wouldn't even be matching and would have to consider a different career.

If you want to go be a community medicine doctor in private practice, a state school is probably a fine choice. But, if you want to work at CHOP, you better go to the ivy league school. If you want a competitive residency program, the ivy league school will give you a better opportunity to get in. Whether or not this is a fair way of doing it is still debateable. The residents that I have worked with at Columbia come from the best of the ivy league medical schools overall, and are superstars. The residents I have worked with at other hospitals have come from the state programs, and are not as good as the Columbia residents. Not proof, but take that as you will. Enjoy.

Whoa! With all due respect, O'doyle, that was a very pompous message. I'm not a big fan of self-entitlement and elitism--i.e., the notion that you're somehow better than the rest of us by virtue of your institutional affiliation and that, consequently, you're entitled to the best residency programs and destined to become a better physician than lowly graduates of state med schools. For your own sake I hope that you become a great physician, because some day I think you'll realize that your colleagues and (more importantly) your patients will ultimately judge you not on the basis of your academic credentials but rather on the basis of your character, interpersonal skills (many of which cannot be taught), and overall competence. I've said this a dozen times and I'll say it again: sometimes prestigious institutions graduate crappy doctors and "mediocre" institutions graduate outstanding physicians; great doctoring entails a personal, lifelong commitment to excellence in care--no institution can instill that commitment, it comes from within.

As for Waitingwatching, or whatever your name is, quit being such an dingus. There's no way that you know more about my classmates and my school than I do. I spend practically every waking hour with them, and I know many of them quite well. I'm not bull****ting you when I say that many of my classmates have no intention of attending prestigious academic residency programs. As for UCSF, Stanford, etc., I have no clue as to what percentage of the students have the same attitude.

At any rate, this entire argument is pointless. A few people on this forum claim that Michigan doesn't live up to its reputation. I disagree and I'm certainly not alone in that regard. Is it on the level of its peers? Who the hell knows and, quite frankly, what difference does it make? My classmates and I will end up where we belong and I'm confident that I will become an outstanding physician. I'm going to suffer a tremendous amount in the process, but I'll get there.

For all the premeds, good luck in the admissions process and choose a school where you'll be happy! To O'doyle, best of luck in the residency selection process.

Peace.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Elias514, your arguments would be more convincing if you addressed the point WatchingWaiting made, and that is UM is no more unique than other top caliber public schools or similarly regarded schools. In other words, your arguments regarding why your match list is weak apply to other schools as much as they do to yours-- which is why people here aren't buying them. So yet, its true people match preferentially to their home program, but that is true everywhere. What isnt true is people from UCSF or UW coming on SDN each year complaining about being misled about UM's match.

So pretty much, I do believe your arguments elias514. But I also believe that they apply to almost of UM's peer schools-- which is why our evaluation of UM's match list hasnt changed.

There is no doubt that UM is a great school, but I think too many people applying from California and NY buy into the hype, only to find out later that they will have incredible difficulty in matching out of the midwest. And it is these people I hope get the correct information, because frankly I could care less about this issue other than people getting fooled.

 

[Shaz]

because some day I think you'll realize that your colleagues and (more importantly) your patients will ultimately judge you not on the basis of your academic credentials but rather on the basis of your character, interpersonal skills (many of which cannot be taught), and overall competence

when I say that many of my classmates have no intention of attending prestigious academic residency programs. As for UCSF, Stanford, etc.

good points.

I get the feeling that a lot of ivy leaguers are obsessed with brand names, buying abercrombe and fitch instead of fruit of the loom underwear, and it would make sense to say that many will still be obsessed after med school to get into a brand name residency (of course, there are always exceptions).

I certainly don't want to be a physician who accidently kills a paitent and then goes up the grieving family with his diploma and say, "but look, I went to XXXX University, I can't possibly be wrong!"

That said, I don't believe that UMich's match list is THAT great, and P&S has one badass neurosurgery department.

 

[frantic983]

.

 

[O'doyleRules]

There is no doubt that UM is a great school, but I think too many people applying from California and NY buy into the hype, only to find out later that they will have incredible difficulty in matching out of the midwest. And it is these people I hope get the correct information, because frankly I could care less about this issue other than people getting fooled.

Fantasy Sports has the right idea here, which is essentially what I was saying. Is it right or not that all the prestigious medical school people are matching in the best programs? Who knows! But this is what is happening. Because of this fact, when you go to Michigan, some programs doors are already closed to you. Would Michigan be a stretch for me to get a residency at coming from the east coast? Certainly! But that is not the argument here.

Applicants need to get a fair assessment of their chances of matching after they graduate, and the options that will be available to them. Quality wise, Michigan's rank list is not that awesome. Whether that is by choice or by ability is not clear.

As for patients not looking at doctors qualifications and only going based on some other meritous factor, that is certainly incorrect. Patients these days are extremely cautious consumers, and research their doctors heavily before signing on. I certainly look where my doctors did their training before going, as it is a good idea of how qualified they will be.

Elias514, I take offense to you calling my statements pompous when merely they just disagreed with your opinion and stated truths about match list quality and opportunities for med students. I also take offense to you saying "For your own sake I hope that you become a great physician." Don't take potshots at people's character. You are just a first year and have no idea the hard work that awaits you, and what is inherent to the statement that you made.

 

[elias514]

I've never asked one of my doctors where he/she trained nor have I ever observed a patient, in all my volunteering experience and current shadowing experiences, ask a doctor that question. In fact, none of my family members who are doctors has ever been asked that question. If it were common practice for patients to choose their physician on the basis of academic credentials, the vast majority of patients would be **** out of luck, because 95% of practicing physicians do NOT have gold-plated credentials.

You may think that patients really care about where you went to school and I'm sure that you'll make every effort to let it be known. But in the end, I sincerely doubt that most of your patients will give a crap; they just want a competent, caring physician. Period. You assign way too much value to prestige.

 

[GuyLaroche]

I've never asked one of my doctors where he/she trained nor have I ever observed a patient, in all my volunteering experience and current shadowing experiences, ask a doctor that question. In fact, none of my family members who are doctors has ever been asked that question. If it were common practice for patients to choose their physician on the basis of academic credentials, the vast majority of patients would be **** out of luck, because 95% of practicing physicians do NOT have gold-plated credentials.

You may think that patients really care about where you went to school and I'm sure that you'll make every effort to let it be known. But in the end, I sincerely doubt that most of your patients will give a crap; they just want a competent, caring physician. Period. You assign way too much value to prestige.

Alright boys! That's enough.

 

[Acherona]

You know, most laypeople would probably rank dartmouth above the university of washington. They are really uninformed about which are the "top" medical schools. So while your degree may impress your colleagues, I have a hard time believing that patients are going to bother reading the us news and world report med school rankings to ensure their doctor is competent. Not to mention that most people are not quite as prestige-obsessed as premeds, who think going to a state school is worse than a death sentence, so they probably wouldn't care or assume inferiority even if they did bother to research it.

Of course when *I* go to the doctor I will make sure there are no caribbean countries on his diploma.

As for patients not looking at doctors qualifications and only going based on some other meritous factor, that is certainly incorrect. Patients these days are extremely cautious consumers, and research their doctors heavily before signing on. I certainly look where my doctors did their training before going, as it is a good idea of how qualified they will be.

 

[tr]

You know, most laypeople would probably rank dartmouth above the university of washington. They are really uninformed about which are the "top" medical schools. So while your degree may impress your colleagues, I have a hard time believing that patients are going to bother reading the us news and world report med school rankings to ensure their doctor is competent.

That's true for most patient populations (not all), but your patients are not the people you'll need to impress. Those will be other doctors.

If you really do want to go into private practice as a PCP, it's true that your medical school is not very important. But if you want to do any sort of specialty, you have to get into a residency; and your med school will matter for that.

For example, you may decide you want to be a radiologist or a neurosurgeon, in which case you'll need all the help you can get. It's pretty annoying when you can't get the field or location you want.

Your med school is more than just a name; it's connections, letters of recommendation, opportunities to do research, etc., etc., etc., all of which will affect your competitiveness for the residency you want.

 

[souljah1]

Odoyle,

The whole "if you want to work at CHOP" go to an ivy and "if you want to be a community physician go to a state school" thing is lame. All Ivies in all categories aren't the same. How is Brown vs. UW for internal medicine? Is surgery at Cornell or Columbia really all that much better than UCLA? Is EM at P&S really better than Hilland in Oakland? It is not so simple. I think your initial post simplified things way too much and it did carry a tone of elitism. Not sure if that is what you are going for, but it did seem that way to me.

I agree with elias. Looking a match lists can be very deceiving. For instance, the recent graduating class here at UCSF matched 19 people into psychiatry (a 'noncompetitive' field) out of about 150. Someone looking at that list might think that those people weren't really competitive applicants or whatever, but that really isn't the case. There were UCSF grads with 240+ board scores actually WANTING to go into psychiatry. Some were at academic institutions that were well-known, others weren't. There are also people who realized while at a large academically powered medical institution that academics weren't for them so their rankings for matching reflected this. Were they noncompetitive? No. I think it is sad that people base quality of an institution on how many people went to competitive places for competitive specialties. The quality of an institution is more deep than that superficial thinking suggests.

 

[JDAWG07]

First, let me offer the disclaimer that I'm just a senior undergraduate and not yet a medstudent - but I thought I would offer my opinion anyway.

My father goes to an internist that monitors his heart related concerns and other age-associated problems. He isn't an academic physician and didn't obtain his degree from a school that would make the USNews list. My father likes him though because he understands my father's concerns and has a good bedside manner. For these reasons, I fully understand Elias514's point of view,... but only for common, everyday problems.

What if you or a loved one someday needs brain surgery or a liver transplant, or what if you had a child with special medical needs and wanted to make sure that they have access to the best care available. I doubt that you wouldn't look at a physicians credentials before considering them. If it were me, I would take care in the fact that my doctor received his training from the best mentors around. And assuming they practice in a competitive specialty or went to a great medical school, I take relief that they went the extra mile to learn the little details necessary to acquire such a pedigree. I want him to be resourceful son of a bitch and to know how to handle a situation if something unexpected happens. It's not like I would only go to a surgeon that did his training in the best department in the country. But his/her school, along with his/her reputation and experience would definitely matter to me.

Everyone always assumes that what makes someone a great doctor is their ability to listen and be compassionate. While I feel this is important, I also want my doctors to know what they're doing. Despite the fact that most doctors would be deemed competent by the medical establishment's standards, there still is a large disparity in the level of technical skill and knowledge among licensed physicians. I only have to look as far as my classmates to see that while most are getting passing grades, the level of knowledge and competency that everyone has in the subject matter of a given course varies widely. From what I hear, it's no different for physicians and medstudents.

 

[Rendar5]

For this reason, if you really wanted the best doctor based on the programs they've done, you would not be looking at their undergrad school nor their medical school. You would be looking at where they did their residency.

First, let me offer the disclaimer that I'm just a senior undergraduate and not yet a medstudent - but I thought I would offer my opinion anyway.

My father goes to an internist that monitors his heart related concerns and other age-associated problems. He isn't an academic physician and didn't obtain his degree from a school that would make the USNews list. My father likes him though because he understands my father's concerns and has a good bedside manner. For these reasons, I fully understand Elias514's point of view,... but only for common, everyday problems.

What if you or a loved one someday needs brain surgery or a liver transplant, or what if you had a child with special medical needs and wanted to make sure that they have access to the best care available. I doubt that you wouldn't look at a physicians credentials before considering them. If it were me, I would take care in the fact that my doctor received his training from the best mentors around. And assuming they practice in a competitive specialty or went to a great medical school, I take relief that they went the extra mile to learn the little details necessary to acquire such a pedigree. I want him to be resourceful son of a bitch and to know how to handle a situation if something unexpected happens. It's not like I would only go to a surgeon that did his training in the best department in the country. But his/her school, along with his/her reputation and experience would definitely matter to me.

Everyone always assumes that what makes someone a great doctor is their ability to listen and be compassionate. While I feel this is important, I also want my doctors to know what they're doing. Despite the fact that most doctors would be deemed competent by the medical establishment's standards, there still is a large disparity in the level of technical skill and knowledge among licensed physicians. I only have to look as far as my classmates to see that while most are getting passing grades, the level of knowledge and competency that everyone has in the subject matter of a given course varies widely. From what I hear, it's no different for physicians and medstudents.

 

[Dr. Donkey]

Well, it's good I have finally gotten around to reading this thread. Frankly, all Ivy league medical schools are worthless. The best medical school in the country by far is UVA SOM. And you know why? Because I got in there, and clearly the medical school that I, that's right, I got into must be the best in the country. I mean who else would be qualified to accept ME? Case closed!



BTW, I'm just being sarchastic, so don't everyone all go getting your panties in a bunch at once...take turns.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I think it is sad that people base quality of an institution on how many people went to competitive places for competitive specialties. The quality of an institution is more deep than that superficial thinking suggests.

How would you propose quantifying this? Obviously, the ideal metric of an institution's quality if something along the lines of how well does it prepare you to be a good clinician and to be a future leader in medicine, but do you really wish to argue that there is no correlation between that and how its graduates match? Are you arguing that all residency programs provide equally good training and therefore it is not possible to say that some are stronger than others?

Great minds can come out of mediocore programs, and mediocore minds can come out of great programs, but what, precisely, do you find "sad" about the general notion that high-powered academic centers tend to produce most of the high-powered academic minds and physician leaders and that, therefore, one measure of a med school's success (especially given that all top ones proclaim to be admitting future physician leaders) is how many of its graduates match into programs that have a track record for producing physician leaders (hence, are prestigious)?

 

[Acherona]

ok let's see if you get that so cal residency miss ivy league

That's true for most patient populations (not all), but your patients are not the people you'll need to impress. Those will be other doctors.

If you really do want to go into private practice as a PCP, it's true that your medical school is not very important. But if you want to do any sort of specialty, you have to get into a residency; and your med school will matter for that.

For example, you may decide you want to be a radiologist or a neurosurgeon, in which case you'll need all the help you can get. It's pretty annoying when you can't get the field or location you want.

Your med school is more than just a name; it's connections, letters of recommendation, opportunities to do research, etc., etc., etc., all of which will affect your competitiveness for the residency you want.

 

[vhawk]

I think it is sad that people base quality of an institution on how many people went to competitive places for competitive specialties. The quality of an institution is more deep than that superficial thinking suggests.

This is part of the ever-growing trend in America of never stratifying ANYTHING. No, you cant possibly say one school is better than another, thats ridiculous! And if it is too hard to convince us that we shouldnt try to rank them, then lets just bash and call into question all the different METHODS of ranking, and that way we still win! Yay, everyone is equal, Podunk = Harvard, no ones feelings are hurt, hooray mediocrity!

 

[Fantasy Sports]

For this reason, if you really wanted the best doctor based on the programs they've done, you would not be looking at their undergrad school nor their medical school. You would be looking at where they did their residency.

And if you look at where residents in top residencies came from, they generally came from top medical schools.

The rest of this reply is directed at the thread in general, nor Rendar5 at all:

If you listen to what people post on SDN, after a while you will get the impression that absolutely no part of a school matters and that it is all about various subjective criteria that can never be compared:

Low MCAT > High MCAT since Low MCAT scorers have more personality (and when you got that low MCAT score at Kaplan for the practice test and improved by the end of the course-- yep, you became a huge a-hole in 1 month... jerkface)

Low GPA > High GPA since Low GPA students did more extracurriculars (since obviously having a low GPA means you have more life experience, whereby life experience means going out drinking, getting busted for a DUI, and doing 100 hours of community service-- though you end up putting those 100 hours down on AMCAS as community service activities)

State school > Private school since being poor means you're smarter, while going to a private school means your daddy got you in and you're a rich bastard

Podunk U > Harvard since doing research is BAD. BAD BAD BAD BAD. And world-renowned physicians who are experts in their field? BAD BAD BAD BAD. And state of the art facilities? Screw 3-d imaging of the brain, I want to make a paper machee! Whee!

Match list of Podunk U > Harvard since, you know, the 1/3 of students matching to their home program at Harvard are matching to inferior hospitals such as Mass Gen and Brigham & Womens, while Podunk Memorial hospital (HMO-owned and operated) doesnt have enough nurses-- so your education is better because you have to do everything including sponge baths! Score for clinical experience! But did you heard about Podunk's world-renowned Little Toe Surgery Center? We have this one surgeon who is the world expert on the Little Toe. Harvard doesn't have him. Suck it.

All I can say is, wow, SDN has to be the most dillusional and nihilistic messageboard ever. That we are actually trying to debate that Podunk > Harvard blows my mind. I mean, if you take what is said on this thread to heart, you will honestly go away thinking that going to Harvard is BAD for you. All I can say is wow. I guess jealousy can do that to people.

 

[davidus]

Fantasy Sports (I love my fantasy NBA, btw), have you seen this post: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2151860&postcount=78 ?

Couldn't help but see the resemblance....

 

[Ypo.]

I'd like to put out one possible answer-one reason someone would attend an IV over any other school is that intangible quality of "PRESTIGE".

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Fantasy Sports (I love my fantasy NBA, btw), have you seen this post: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2151860&postcount=78 ?

Couldn't help but see the resemblance....

Haha that post is way better than mine. Mad props to automaton. Wow.

 

[Rendar5]

And if you look at where residents in top residencies came from, they generally came from top medical schools.

hey, i'm on your side. Picking the right med school is very important, and some med schools are better than others. What I was arguing against is that patients will be looking at your ugrad school and using that as an accurate judge of how good a doctor they are. If you want to judge how good a doctor is, u don't go by his med school, u go by his residency.

If you want a better shot at a good residency, picking a good school helps, but ultimately, it's up to the person and not the school t be good enough to make the great residencies. that's why i'm saying, judge not a doctor's ability on their school when there ar emuch more direct ways to do so.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

hey, i'm on your side. Picking the right med school is very important, and some med schools are better than others. What I was arguing against is that patients will be looking at your ugrad school and using that as an accurate judge of how good a doctor they are. If you want to judge how good a doctor is, u don't go by his med school, u go by his residency.

If you want a better shot at a good residency, picking a good school helps, but ultimately, it's up to the person and not the school t be good enough to make the great residencies. that's why i'm saying, judge not a doctor's ability on their school when there ar emuch more direct ways to do so.

Agreed, I wasnt contending you with my post, but rather extending on it. Agreed nontheless.

 

[zidanereal2003]

Although I agree most state schools are a better value than Ivy Leages, you have to remember that for some people, money isn't an object. They have rich families.

And going to Harvard DOES give you an advantage when it comes to residencies, like it or not. That doesnt mean you have a huge advantage, it doesn't mean you can do crappy. However, residency directors are impressed by a good med school. It isn't critical like going to law school but its still an edge.

By the way, where are you getting that berkley and wisconsin are 1-2 for research funds? My info shows Harvard is still #1 by a huge margin (like double) as they have been for decades. They just topped a billion per year.

Well, because most medical directors and medical leaders have graduated either from an Ivy school or from one of the top 15 medical schools

 

[souljah1]

This is part of the ever-growing trend in America of never stratifying ANYTHING. No, you cant possibly say one school is better than another, thats ridiculous! And if it is too hard to convince us that we shouldnt try to rank them, then lets just bash and call into question all the different METHODS of ranking, and that way we still win! Yay, everyone is equal, Podunk = Harvard, no ones feelings are hurt, hooray mediocrity!

Nice use of exclamation points. This whole thing really has you heated up huh? I think there are definitely better medical school programs. What I'm saying is that I think it is sad that premeds and some medical students think that determining the strength of a program is as simple as looking at a match list. Read my post again. There is nothing about mediocrity or refusing to say one school is better than another. Rather, what it suggests is that what makes a good medical school is more complex than simply how many dermatology and orthopaedic slots it filled at high powered academic residency institutions. Maybe you'll realize that once you start medical school.

Noone is debating that Podunk (whatever that is) is better than Harvard. What I'm saying is that to think that you can measure the strength of UM based on just their match list is ridiculous. What I also said was directed toward Odoyle who seems to think that going to an Ivy is the golden ticket. It doesn't work that way. In fact, programs like UCSF, UCLA, UWash, UM, UTSW, Baylor, Vanderbilt, etc all have incredibly well-known training programs that are considered highly sought after.

 

[vhawk]

Certainly there is more to selecting a school than match stats, I agree. However, you seem to be implying that match stats arent important at all, and that this is "superficial" to determining the quality of the school. Since most of us have a few days and a website to familiarize ourselves with schools, it becomes necessary to have strong, firm quantitative criteria.

And sorry if I seemed worked up, it wasnt much to do with this thread specifically (I am certainly not going to an Ivy League school, although I am also not going to a state school), I just got into an argument with my dad who told me I use stats and think too critically about things, and cant be emotional(read irrational). I just get tired of this "Cant hurt peoples feelings by ranking anything or implying anything is better than anything else" mentality.

 

[souljah1]

Certainly there is more to selecting a school than match stats, I agree. However, you seem to be implying that match stats arent important at all, and that this is "superficial" to determining the quality of the school. Since most of us have a few days and a website to familiarize ourselves with schools, it becomes necessary to have strong, firm quantitative criteria.

And sorry if I seemed worked up, it wasnt much to do with this thread specifically (I am certainly not going to an Ivy League school, although I am also not going to a state school), I just got into an argument with my dad who told me I use stats and think too critically about things, and cant be emotional(read irrational). I just get tired of this "Cant hurt peoples feelings by ranking anything or implying anything is better than anything else" mentality.

No problem. I do think match stats are important, but I also think that people read into them a little too critically. Without knowing the people who comprise the match list, it can be difficult to intrepret things like why there are or aren't a lot of derm matches, why are there a ton of psych matches, why a lot of folks opted for non-academic residencies, etc.

Best of luck with what you decide and I hope that your experience in medical school is a positive one.

 

[visualwealth]

WOW I cannot believe that you *****s(take this lightly) are still debating if UM is a good school or not..... WAKE UP.... It is ranked 7 for a reason!! If you get in there it is an honor and, something to brag about for the rest of your life.... I mean we are the future residency directors and we know how highly ranked it is so the image of it will only continue to get better... Remember match lists change and so do rankings... Don't be a fool and base you decision on those two factors alone.


Good luck

 

[tangents]

Go to the school where you A). get in, B). fit in and C). can afford.

Med school is not worth being miserable for some perception of a reputation that may or may not be true once you are on the inside. No med schools are bad.

 

[ironey]

I don't know exactly how I ended up at an "Ivy". . . . . Maybe I just liked the cold weather and remote location.

Seriously, if we all came from a state with several top-notch public schools and got accepted to said schools, then we might make different decisions. It's all about what options you have, how willing you are to go into debt to become a doctor, and where you really feel that you'll be happy.

 

[snaklee]

To demand the right to be snobbish and rude. Is there any other reason?

Oh yeah, so I can say that men are smarter than women in math and science.
I guess that somehow relates to my first reason.

 

[locks]

How long did it take to receive your acceptance from Dartmouth after you interviewed? I really enjoyed my time there and am thinking of choosing it over my state school if i get accepted. The hospital, faculty, and students were awesome. Can you give me any info on Dartmouth and how you like it? thanks

 

[MWillie]

I don't know exactly how I ended up at an "Ivy". . . . . Maybe I just liked the cold weather and remote location.

Seriously, if we all came from a state with several top-notch public schools and got accepted to said schools, then we might make different decisions. It's all about what options you have, how willing you are to go into debt to become a doctor, and where you really feel that you'll be happy.

Why did you bump this thread? Oh and when the OP was talking about Ivy Med, he was talking about Harvard, Penn, Yale, not the two lame ones DMS and Brown.

 

[Haven711]

At my U of Chicago interview in November, my interviewer was the ER residency director. He was speaking candidly about several of his residency interviewees and mentioned that he doesn't even grant interviews to medical students unless they come from the top 25 medical schools as listed by U.S. news.

I don't like that.

 

[SarahGM]

Why did you bump this thread? Oh and when the OP was talking about Ivy Med, he was talking about Harvard, Penn, Yale, not the two lame ones DMS and Brown.

Blah. Get over yourself.

Sarah
-Dartmouth '03

 

[Reckoning]

Blah. Get over yourself.

Sarah
-Dartmouth '03

After having interviewed at DMS. I kinda think they need to get over themselves. If I heard Ivy League one more time while I was there I was going to vomit. Holy coatails, Batman, this one needs to sell itself on it's own merits!

 

[Handy388]

gentle nudge

 

[binko]

Because they can.

 

[surftheiop]

Im currently going to an Ivy League school for undergrad and I think the biggest difference is who is sitting next to you in class. Like in my freshman chem classes (I took honors) out of a class of 90 people atleast 70 of them will be getting PhD's or MD's. The fact that the people who are in the bottom 20% of each class you take probably were in the top %10 of their highschool means that everyone is working hard around you and nobody is truly slacking off. It makes you push yourself that much harder just to survive.

All that being said, Im not convinced its neccesarily better to have to be going 110% everyday just to try to stay at the mean grade, so Im definately not planning to go to ivy league type school for med school. I would much rather go to a school where people are good students, but have some interests outside of medicine and arent crazy cut-throat competitors.

 

[MrBurns10]

Die, 4-year-old thread, die!