Will anybody ever say NO?

[nimbus001]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but I am just curious. I wonder if it is just the good nature of the people on SDN, or if they are just brain-washed to give same generic encouragements without a thought because it is politically correct. All right, here is the question: Will anybody ever say no to someone who ask if they have a good chance to make it to medical school with xx gpa and yy mcat score, even if the gpa is really low and mcat does nothing to make you believe that the person deserved a better gpa? I am not saying that we should be mean(I personally have no problems telling people words of encouragement) but I am wondering if we are hurting pepole by not thinking about things carefully and just giving them the same encouraging words. I mean, it is nice to think that it is better to apply and have failed than never to have applied and regret for the rest of your life, but what if it would be much more efficient never to have applied. I am wondering where do we draw the line between being nice and being realistic. I want to give people the best advice I can, but what if being 'nice' continues to delude them. This has nothing to do with any particular person, event, or topic, I just wanted to know if we are just being 'too nice.' I also wonder because in the future, when we become doctors, we may/will have to break the bad news to the patients. We are probably not going to tell them the 'nice' things, if we believe from our training that there is no hope. Likewise, maybe we should tell some of these eager new pre-meds some of the not so nice things about the application process, and at least be honest about them based on our experiences. It is a dilemma for me because I really don't like to tell people the 'bad' news, but I am afraid that I might be doing harm to the people if I give them a sugar-coated words of encouragements. I am sorry if this makes me come out as some monstrously mean guy, or if some people take things personally against my comments. I just couldn't sleep, and I was just pondering because so many people suddenly want my advice since I have been magically embued with the knowledge of how to help pre-meds get into med school. Anyways, don't mind me, I am a little sleepy, and a little conflicted with my emotions and conscience.

 

[sacrament]

I can remember a couple of times when I've told people that their chances are slim-to-none. But what do I know. Medical school admission is such a crap-shoot anyway.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

The answer is never an absolute no or yes. It's on a spectrum of unlikely to likely in regards to achieving admission. It's difficult to judge purely on GPA, MCAT, and the various generic things people post on this board. Most of the advice given is based on known statistics and averages. Thus, there are always the applicants below the bell curve who gain admission and those who are at the top of the bell curve who get rejected from all schools.

This is why my answer is never yes nor no.

 

[Moskeeto]

Originally posted by nimbus001
...if it is just the good nature of the people on SDN...

you obviously don't read the AA threads 😉

 

[TexasRose]

We'd be wrong to think we really know what someone's chances are. There are always the stories about the horrible MCAT/GPA that got in and the statistically deserving student who didn't. I think it's best to be encouraging and a little honest. People ask because they want encouragement for a decision they've already made. (whether they know it or not.)

Telling someone they're screwed with their scores doesn't really help. I've seen lots of good advice about how to improve chances with volunteer work, shadowing, MPH programs, etc. That's useful.

Besides, if these posters read any of the other threads, they will quickly learn just how brutal the process truly is.

BTW, there are the flamers who (though funny) will always shoot someone down for asking in the first place!

Theresa

 

[Neuronix]

I've told people virtually no a few times. Like people said, it can never be absolute, because it works more on a probability scale. There's also always ways one can improve one's application. So, if someone's application is bad now, perhaps after a post-bacc, a MCAT retake, and extra ECs, it won't look so bad. Applying multiple times can also help, because it shows dedication and gives time to improve an application, even if it does cause the applicant great stress and frustration.

 

[Kovox]

Originally posted by nimbus001
I know I am going to get flamed for this

Originally posted by nimbus001
I wonder if it is just the good nature of the people on SDN

You must be new to the board 😀

Originally posted by nimbus001
It is a dilemma for me because I really don't like to tell people the 'bad' news, but I am afraid that I might be doing harm to the people if I give them a sugar-coated words of encouragements.

I knew you were one of those marshmellow guys after reading the allo form! 😀 Anyways to answer your question, if someone asks for an assessment of their situation, I don't say "no" or "yes" because medical school acceptance has no formula, at least from my application experience. What I usually do is analyze their situation and just give them facts from sources with average stats and stuff and suggestions on how they can improve their application.

Just because we got into medical school doesn't mean we know how the admissions committee select their students. Sugarcoating in this case, is not a good thing. The problem with SDN is that there's some SDNers who are just plain out sensitive and get offended so easily which results in them flaming the poster.

If anything, being flamed is fun - because you know you pressed someone's buttons and what you're saying is most likely true because you pissed them off enough for them to get emotional on you. Don't worry about getting flamed, just offer your sincere factual advice. Flamers don't think with their heads so what they usually post is illogical or is just an insult thereby you can reply with a good logical answer and destroy their credibility and make them feel even worst 😀

Heck, I've had posters tell me to consider law school (which is funny because I was accepted into my first choice law school) because I was so "harsh" , "insensitive" and blunt in my replies; and that they hoped I wasn't going to raise kids..and you've kept up wtih allo posts -- I've been called a chauvinist as well😛

It's all good, if everyone was thinking the same thing, then no one is thinking. The truth hurts but people need to learn to deal with it.

 

[nimbus001]

Thanks everyone for such considerate replies to one of my late night ramblings.....I guess if a person asks me for an opinion, he/she do so at their own risk, and my responsibility in that case would be to just give them an honest advice based on how I view things. How they interpret my advice is totally up to them, so in essence I am not the one that is guiding them on the wrong path. I just need to tell my true opinion, and hopefully do it in a manner that is easier to swallow 😀 . Anyways, just my thoughts, and thanks for putting up with me.

 

[Ernham]

A person that will not get into med school:

Over 50 years old.
Nothing unique about his work/volunteer past.
Taken the MCAT 6 times and got less than 23 on each one.
Has a GPA under 2.8.
Is not an URM

There are many ways to get into med school if you've had a checkered past or not so stellar numbers. So, it's really wrong to tell someone something like "no, you can't get in," when very few are in situations that are really all that bad. There's always grad work, there's always retaking the MCAT, there's always time to distinguish yourself.

 

[doc05]

I will often read a post and think -- "this person won't get in because...." I try not to post a response in this case because I know there are some oversensitive chicks out there who might start crying or something.

 

[Medical123]

Originally posted by Ernham
A person that will not get into med school:


Taken the MCAT 6 times and got less than 23 on each one.
Is not an URM

Actually, a girl that went to my undergrad school did get in with a 21 on the MCAT. She took the exam several times and that was her all time high score. However, she excelled in everything else that she did. She was a varsity cheerleader, president of a sorority, first runner up in one of the state preliminaries for the Miss America pageant, did volunteer work, research, and had a good GPA of around 3.8. She is the type of person that is so perfect in so many ways that it makes me sick!!!!! Other than the MCAT though, she had a lot going for her. I guess that extracurricular activities in college do account for something.

 

[Ischemia]

Originally posted by Ernham
A person that will not get into med school:

Over 50 years old.
Nothing unique about his work/volunteer past.
Taken the MCAT 6 times and got less than 23 on each one.
Has a GPA under 2.8.
Is not an URM

Ernham, only because you made a comment to someone else about his/her grammar (on another thread) will I comment on yours. The last line of yours that I quoted should be, "Is not A URM." You used, as I'm sure you can see, "an," but you should have used only the letter "a." If your grammar is not perfect, which it isn't, don't reply to others and criticize.

Take care, and please continue with your incessant, useless talk about AA.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Ischemia
Ernham, only because you made a comment to someone else about his/her grammar (on another thread) will I comment on yours. The last line of yours that I quoted should be, "Is not A URM." You used, as I'm sure you can see, "an," but you should have used only the letter "a." If your grammar is not perfect, which it isn't, don't reply to others and criticize.

Take care, and please continue with your incessant, useless talk about AA.

Where did you learn English? UNder definitely begins with a vowel sound. You aren't suppose to read that "yoo'r'em". LOL.

 

[ttac]

I agree that at times it seems like SDN is WAY too optimistic about people with a 3.1/24 ever getting into med school. But you have to consider that they might be able to raise that 3.1 or that 24 to more 'acceptable' levels, so to speak.

I remember talking to my premed advisor my senior year, who flat out told me that I would NEVER, and I mean, NEVER get into med school. I am not paraphrasing here. She repeatedly used that word, and said it to my face.

And you know what? At the time she said that, my application was never going to get accepted anywhere. I had a 2.4 GPA, and I had nearly failed out of school.

So I didn't apply my first year because knew I wouldn't get in. However, I also knew that I was capable of getting in the mid-high 30's on the MCAT, and I knew I would be doing research and taking post-bac classes.

I finally got admitted my third time applying (hence the username 😉) and it was only because I refused to listen to my premed advisor.

Now I realize that there are some cases that one could be 99% sure they will never get into med school. I know that in my case, the MCAT saved me. But I think that while SDN-ers might be slightly too optimistic sometimes, I think you would be surprised at what one can do to improve their application, and eventually get into med school.

ttac
p.s. I think by virtue of my stats (low GPA/high MCAT/MIT alum) anyone can figure out who I am on www.mdapplicants.com so to save you the trouble, here is a link to my profile, if you're curious:

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=115

 

[mamadoc]

A person that will not get into med school:

Over 50 years old.

I personally know two people >50 who've gotten into or graduated from med school. There are definitely others. Rare, yes. "Won't happen," no.

 

[Ernham]

Umm, that list was meant to be all inclusive of a single applicant.

 

[phar]

I am assuming you guys have never taken self-esteem/determination classes. Medical school is more that grades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, there is hope out there.

 

[indo]

Originally posted by Ischemia
Ernham, only because you made a comment to someone else about his/her grammar (on another thread) will I comment on yours. The last line of yours that I quoted should be, "Is not A URM." You used, as I'm sure you can see, "an," but you should have used only the letter "a." If your grammar is not perfect, which it isn't, don't reply to others and criticize.

Take care, and please continue with your incessant, useless talk about AA.

it depends on how he says "urm". If he says U-R-M than you're right but if he says it as a word that sounds like "erm" than he used "an" correctly. I've always wondered how people say that.

Whats dumb, though, is how he seems to think that a person who is a minority will get into a medical school with the stats that he listed while a white person wouldn't. I don't think anybody would get in that kind of application.

 

[Doc Ivy]

Actually, a girl that went to my undergrad school did get in with a 21 on the MCAT. She took the exam several times and that was her all time high score. However, she excelled in everything else that she did. She was a varsity cheerleader, president of a sorority, first runner up in one of the state preliminaries for the Miss America pageant, did volunteer work, research, and had a good GPA of around 3.8. She is the type of person that is so perfect in so many ways that it makes me sick!!!!! Other than the MCAT though, she had a lot going for her. I guess that extracurricular activities in college do account for something.

LOL I know that you were only trying to be inspirational and God Bless you, but this made me laugh... many of her significant ECs somehow relate to her looks, and her ability to shake her booty without dropping her pom poms... She'll make an excellent surgeon one day

Ok, that was harsh, sorry😉

Peace ~ Doc

 

[Medical123]

Originally posted by Doc Ivy
LOL I know that you were only trying to be inspirational and God Bless you, but this made me laugh... many of her significant ECs somehow relate to her looks, and her ability to shake her booty without dropping her pom poms... She'll make an excellent surgeon one day

Ok, that was harsh, sorry😉

Peace ~ Doc

Hey! Looking like Barbie helps! Maybe the schools give bonus points for that! Unfortunately, there are a lot of applicants out there with poor MCAT scores that don't get in, despite other great qualifications.

 

[nimbus001]

Oh, just to clarify something, I believe in a person's ability to improve his/her stats and stuff. I think a person can boost his/her gpa and MCAT scores, but I am talking about people who are like out of school, has like a sub-3.0 gpa sub-25 MCAT's and haven't done anything since coming out of school (just an example, any semblance to a real person out there is purely coincidental and is not intended 🙂 )...I don't really think I am a mean person, but I am not sure if I like being a cheerleader all the time. Giving them words of encouragement that are kinda hollow. I don't want to come off as being fake and stuff, but honesty is just not the best policy sometimes.