Will Away Help My Chances to Match at that Program

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JoshSt

Train, Say Your Prayers, Take Your Vitamins
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MS3 considering next year aways. I'm very interested in one particular program because of its location and prestige ("top 10" program). My question is will a 4 week elective in DR or IR help me match at this competitive program? I think I'll get an interview there on paper without an away but, for family reasons, I'd love to have the best chance of matching there.

If so, DR or IR? I will have completed a home IR rotation before this potential away.

Please let me know if you think this will help, if not, I''ll gladly skip out and take my chances with interviews.

Stats: Not a world-conqueror as far as rad applicants - step 1 254, will have step 2 ck score before ERAS, should have senior AOA, class rank prob 10-15, good LORs from both rads and nonrads, and a couple radiology-related publications as first author. Stats are what they are but I know I'll be up against 270's, top 5's, and the like.

I know this has been discussed before, but I can't readily find those threads.

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More important for aways in rads is your social skills. That should factor most in deciding to do aways.
 
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I'd be comfortable that I wouldn't scare them. I'm hard-working, try to ask meaningful rather than forced questions, try my best to engage in small talk, try to realize points where I'm being annoying, knowledgable in sports, try to stay away from politics. At the same time, I'm not going to sell them a used car nor am I the life of the party. Most physicians I've worked with 3rd year remember me well, say nice things to me in passing.

I don't have a ton of DR time, reading room etiquette under my belt, but could in time for a rotation.
 
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Your app is great on paper and I doubt an away, especially at a top 10 program, would help or be worth your time. 250s Step 1 + AOA + first author rads pubs put you at the top of the pile, man...don't think your app is substandard cause you don't have a 270.

I think an away could only hurt you if you accidentally rub someone the wrong way...it's essentially a month long interview. Interview day is enough to establish you have decent social skills, which is all you need to prove now (your app is flawless otherwise). If there's a specific program that you want to go to, express your compelling reasons to the PC as they're giving out interviews so it isn't overlooked.

Aways in rads are for marginal candidates to beg a mid/low tier program to let them in, not guys like you who will be fielding multiple top tier offers.
 
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I did two IR aways. I found them extremely helpful in trying to decide which kind of residency I ultimately wanted since one was academic (large) and one was community (small). They were both programs I thought I'd like in my home state. In the end, the community rotation provided a great LOR. I think that program liked me too. The academic away helped tremendously since it moved the program from #2 to #6 after I realized their IR department wasn't as robust as I wanted it to be.
 
Your app is great on paper and I doubt an away, especially at a top 10 program, would help or be worth your time. 250s Step 1 + AOA + first author rads pubs put you at the top of the pile, man...don't think your app is substandard cause you don't have a 270.

I think an away could only hurt you if you accidentally rub someone the wrong way...it's essentially a month long interview. Interview day is enough to establish you have decent social skills, which is all you need to prove now (your app is flawless otherwise). If there's a specific program that you want to go to, express your compelling reasons to the PC as they're giving out interviews so it isn't overlooked.

Aways in rads are for marginal candidates to beg a mid/low tier program to let them in, not guys like you who will be fielding multiple top tier offers.

Thanks, I greatly appreciate the reassurance. Choosing not to do an away will certainly help me to have a more relaxed and enjoyable 4th year.
 
I did two IR aways. I found them extremely helpful in trying to decide which kind of residency I ultimately wanted since one was academic (large) and one was community (small). They were both programs I thought I'd like in my home state. In the end, the community rotation provided a great LOR. I think that program liked me too. The academic away helped tremendously since it moved the program from #2 to #6 after I realized their IR department wasn't as robust as I wanted it to be.

Thanks for this advice. Shadowing a DR that did alot of IR procedures is what drove me to go into radiology; it would be worthwhile to get as much exposure to a diversity of practices during 4th year. We have a good IR program at my institution which I'm looking to rotate through. A community rotation is a great idea, I'll see if I can get connected with local or nearby IR physicians.
 
Your app is great on paper and I doubt an away, especially at a top 10 program, would help or be worth your time. 250s Step 1 + AOA + first author rads pubs put you at the top of the pile, man...don't think your app is substandard cause you don't have a 270.

I think an away could only hurt you if you accidentally rub someone the wrong way...it's essentially a month long interview. Interview day is enough to establish you have decent social skills, which is all you need to prove now (your app is flawless otherwise). If there's a specific program that you want to go to, express your compelling reasons to the PC as they're giving out interviews so it isn't overlooked.

Aways in rads are for marginal candidates to beg a mid/low tier program to let them in, not guys like you who will be fielding multiple top tier offers.

Ouch. :bang:
 
Aways can be helpful in other ways. If you pick a program that's quite different from your current institution in terms of number of residents or overall volume, etc., it may give you a better idea of which working environment you would prefer.

Also, if you have an idea that you might want to live in a different area of the country but haven't spent any significant time there, an away could help you figure this out as well.

I rotated at an institution and realized, although I really loved the program and thought I would fit in well there, I preferred something of a different size and with a different number of hospitals in which residents rotated. This is something I would not have realized otherwise, and my overall rank list would have likely looked quite different without the away.
 

I hope I don't come off as a jerk by saying that! But those are the situations where aways help the applicant. An away at a top tier program won't likely budge someone up in the ranks. An away for someone like the OP would really only be helpful in getting an extended inside look at the program. Top rads places don't need to know that applicants are super interested -- they have the pick of the litter. But a place that worries about going unfilled...yeah, that'll help your chances.
 
I tend to be of the opinion that aways in radiology can only really hurt you. Sure, you get more information about a particular aspect of a program. But let's be honest: you are in a position where you're next to useless to the resident or attending you're shadowing. This isn't a sub-I where you can contribute significantly to the team. If you are even the least bit socially awkward, this could be a very very bad situation when stretched out over 2-4 weeks. Not to mention the expense.

I wouldn't bother.
 
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I guess I'll be the only contrary opinion here.

I decided I wanted to get out of my shell Fall semester of my senior year because I wanted to check out other parts of the country. I did 2 DR aways: 1 at a mid-tier west-coast, and 1 top tier southern school and both were awesome! I'm not Mr. Personality by any means, but I did read "Learning Radiology" before I started so I could answer very basic pimp questions. Sure enough, I got interviews at both, and I think it really helped when I could talk with the interviewer about why I liked their program (i.e. specific faculty and residents I enjoyed working with). I even got a RTM email from the top southern school.

So away rotations necessary? Probably not. But if you're looking to get out of you area and see the country and really get a good feel for other programs, I highly recommend it. In fact the only people at my school that got a Northwestern invite did a rotation there, I was rejected even though I'm an NU alum and got invites from arguably more prestigious programs!
 
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I appreciate all of your different views and insight. Thanks to all.
 
Did an away at my number 1, universally liked by faculty and residents, had a great interview, they took one of my classmates instead of me.
 
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If you are socially acceptable (not necessarily smart) away rotation can help, even if you are an AOA from Hopkins with board score of 300.
 
Did an away at my number 1, universally liked by faculty and residents, had a great interview, they took one of my classmates instead of me.
malignant/narcissistic personality much?
 
Should I do electives 4th y in anything other than rads? Is an im sub internship necessary when applying for transitional year or prelim meicine? BTW thinking of prelim surgery if transitional yr is too compet because don't like general I'm but do like I'm subspecialties
 
Should I do electives 4th y in anything other than rads? Is an im sub internship necessary when applying for transitional year or prelim meicine? BTW thinking of prelim surgery if transitional yr is too compet because don't like general I'm but do like I'm subspecialties

Your 4th year electives should largely NOT be radiology electives. I'd do no more than 2 mo of rads. You'll be doing radiology the rest of your life, so take the opportunity to see some more clinical stuff you won't otherwise see.
 
malignant/narcissistic personality much?

I was being terse, don't confuse that with anything else. Just saying there are "fit" issues that go beyond how you get along with people. I want to do a lot of research and the program didn't offer that much.

And yes, I'm buddies with that guy and we're still buddies. I'm sure to get over it after another adjustment of my meds :wacky:
 
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I would like to list malignant program where to list it ?
 
I would like to list malignant program where to list it ?

Start a thread about it or spill the beans here.
 
Your 4th year electives should largely NOT be radiology electives. I'd do no more than 2 mo of rads. You'll be doing radiology the rest of your life, so take the opportunity to see some more clinical stuff you won't otherwise see.
I'll see plenty of clinical stuff in internship. So why take an im subi if you're not required? Why not take some chill rheum or cardio electives when I'm not doing rad?
 
I personally agree with you, yesno. If you get a strong LOR from your MS3 IM rotation, then you've already satisfied that common residency app requirement, and there is no absolute need for an MS4 IM sub-I.

Assuming you still have to do some core-type clinical rotations to satisfy LCME requirements, then I agree picking much easier rotations like consult electives is the way to go. But that is just me...I am from the camp that believes the marginal benefit of a few more weeks of medicine now is small with respect to the tons of medicine I will get during internship, and even smaller with respect to its usefulness towards my career in radiology -- and thus my time is better spent traveling, visiting friends/family, and doing other pursuits I've neglected over the past couple years. Still, I can respect the other viewpoint that argues you should try to maximize learning and broad exposure given you (or someone) is paying a lot for you to be in medical school.
 
I'll see plenty of clinical stuff in internship. So why take an im subi if you're not required? Why not take some chill rheum or cardio electives when I'm not doing rad?

You'll be an intern, so taking a sub-I is good for you. It's not the end of the world to take one difficult month your whole 4th year. They're required at most schools these days anyway.

But my point was yes, after your sub-I and your 1-2 rads rotations, do chill stuff like rheum, cards, pulm, path, etc.
 
Whether an away helps is program-specific. I did two away rotations my fourth year, both at top tier institutions. I had a similar application profile (259/266, etc) but was coming from a no-name allopathic school. As it turns out, the first away (IR at a top 20 Southern school) had given me an advantage because I was able to connect socially with several of the residents (mostly cool, young, single dudes) and establish myself as someone they would enjoy working with. The second away (DR at a top 5) involved getting to know the PD personally, befriending the chief resident, and co-authoring a short manuscript. I suspect that I ended up high on the first program's list (which ended up not being my #1). I did not get an interview at all at the second.

The lesson is that you should not count on courtesy interviews to get your foot in the door, but if you are a competitive candidate anyway, they can essentially function as a long interview which affords a greater chance of making an valuable impression (assuming, as mentioned above, that you have the appropriate social skills). That being said, I did the away rotations not to credentialize myself, but to spend a couple of months in awesome cities, and I don't regret any of it.
 
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