Will DO Enrollment Rival MD Enrollment In The Future?

[IWant2BeADoctor]

Given America is facing a shortage of Doctors and MD programs are rejecting many qualified applicants. Do you guys think that DO Enrollment will come to Rival MD Enrollment In The Future? Please include an explanation.

If Enrollment in DO programs spikes to MD levels what changes do you anticipate in the Health care system?

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[HarveyCushing]

Given America is facing a shortage of Doctors and MD programs are rejecting many qualified applicants. Do you guys think that DO Enrollment will come to Rival MD Enrollment In The Future? Please include an explanation.

If Enrollment in DO programs spikes to MD levels what changes do you anticipate in the Health care system?

I don't think so since there are only 26 DO schools vs. the 125 MD schools. Another 100 medical schools seems far fetched, don't you think?

 

[NRAI2001]

Maybe there will be similar interest and difficulty in gaining acceptance.........if DO schools would affiliate with full universities (with an undergrad, other grad depts...etc; especially with more prestigious universities or state systems) instead of becoming expensive little private schools.

LOCATION is a huge issue to. Most of the DO schools are in less desirable areas; often times in what are considered rural areas.

Also opening more of their own hospitals would help also.

Opening more numbers of the more desirable/competitive residencies (Neurosurg, plastic surg, ortho, anesth, derm, rads) would greatly help the osteopathic field also.......especially if they are in good locations and affiliated with university systems.

 

[CTrainSJU]

I don't think so since there are only 26 DO schools vs. the 125 MD schools. Another 100 medical schools seems far fetched, don't you think?

damn good point

 

[MJB]

I don't see anything yet that I don't agree with.

The high cost of tuition may end up hurting lots of schools in the end. It's a difficult situation, and seeing what it takes to get a new school opened has been eye opening.

It would be interesting to see more state schools start Osteopathic programs, particularly those in the "less populated" states of the nation.

 

[HarveyCushing]

I don't think it is enrollment that we as future DOs should worry about, it is more the clinical education as well as the residency training.

 

[HarveyCushing]

It would be interesting to see more state schools start Osteopathic programs, particularly those in the "less populated" states of the nation.

This is something that I would like to see as well. Like Alaska, N/S Dakota, Idaho..etc. All of those states have fairly large state universities with faculty and facilities. It would be nice to see them open up a DO school rather than having stand-alone medical schools like Touro or Lecom (this wasn't meant as a bash).

 

[MJB]

I don't think it is enrollment that we as future DOs should worry about, it is more the clinical education as well as the residency training.

Agree...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Opening more numbers of the more desirable/competitive residencies (Neurosurg, plastic surg, ortho, anesth, derm, rads) would greatly help the osteopathic field also.......especially if they are in good locations and affiliated with university systems.

Improving the quality of residencies would be a good start, before they start opening more.

Example: At least among EM residencies, the faculty at DO programs tend to have few- if any- representation in the literature....something that would fly in the allopathic world like a lead zeppelin.

 

[spicedmanna]

Improving the quality of residencies would be a good start, before they start opening more.

Example: At least among EM residencies, the faculty at DO programs tend to have few- if any- representation in the literature....something that would fly in the allopathic world like a lead zeppelin.

Yup, I agree.

 

[NRAI2001]

Improving the quality of residencies would be a good start, before they start opening more.

Example: At least among EM residencies, the faculty at DO programs tend to have few- if any- representation in the literature....something that would fly in the allopathic world like a lead zeppelin.

Ya but having more DO neurosurgs, radiologists, plastic surgeons....etc specialists in general will help to dismiss some of the myth that DOs cant match into specialties very often. Some of these specialists may even enter research; even at MD programs its not like every neurosurgeon or rad onc doc will go do research....maybe out of every 50 trained neurosurgeons 1 or 2 will go do research. DOs dont even train close to 50 neurosurgeons a year............I suppose you need a certain critical mass of residents in certain fields before significant numbers of them will be syphoned away from private practice to academia or research..

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Ya but having more DO neurosurgs, radiologists, plastic surgeons....etc specialists in general will help to dismiss some of the myth that DOs cant match into specialties very often. Some of these specialists may even enter research; even at MD programs its not like every neurosurgeon or rad onc doc will go do research....maybe out of every 50 trained neurosurgeons 1 or 2 will go do research. DOs dont even train close to 50 neurosurgeons a year............I suppose you need a certain critical mass of residents in certain fields before significant numbers of them will be syphoned away from private practice to academia or research..

Yes, but you would expect program faculty- especially program directors to have at least one publication under their belt. So the question becomes whether you want to increase the number of slots at the expense of the programs. Quality or quantity- which is the better way to improve the reputation of programs and graduates?

 

[NRAI2001]

Yes, but you would expect program faculty- especially program directors to have at least one publication under their belt. So the question becomes whether you want to increase the number of slots at the expense of the programs. Quality or quantity- which is the better way to improve the reputation of programs and graduates?

I think the greater the quantitiy of these specialists the better; if you only train like 15 neurosurgeons nation wide a year (dont know the real number but guessing its something like this) you cant expect too many of them do come back and do research. I suppoe if you required a few research electives/months during the course of a residency you could probably help to improve this.

But for the time being I think increasing the number of DO specialty residencies will attract more students.

I am currently considering going to a DO school, the things I listed earlier are of great concern to me.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

I think Boise State, U of Wyoming and maybe Washington state would be perfect places to open new schools in. Two of the places have no med schools in the state and have large undergrad campuses.

 

[NRAI2001]

I think if there was a requirement that all DO schools have their "own" hospital or have a hospital in their very close/local proximity your issues with research and many of the other issues could be better addressed. Being closer to a med school will allow more access to residents and students to research. Not to mention access for PHDs and MDs working and doing research at the school to come to the hospital depts like neurosurg or radiology depts and do research.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I think the greater the quantitiy of these specialists the better; if you only train like 15 neurosurgeons nation wide a year (dont know the real number but guessing its something like this) you cant expect too many of them do come back and do research. I suppoe if you required a few research electives/months during the course of a residency you could probably help to improve this.

But for the time being I think increasing the number of DO specialty residencies will attract more students.

I am currently considering going to a DO school, the things I listed earlier are of great concern to me.

Once again, I reiterate.......quality (or appearance thereof) or quantity?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I think if there was a requirement that all DO schools have their "own" hospital or have a hospital in their very close/local proximity your issues with research and many of the other issues could be better addressed. Being closer to a med school will allow more access to residents and students to research. Not to mention access for PHDs and MDs working and doing research at the school to come to the hospital depts like neurosurg or radiology depts and do research.

*cough* Clinical research? *cough*

 

[madscientist50]

I hope that the enrollments dont reach those numbers in both types of schools because then there will be soo many docs there wont be any jobs for any of us, and with that many docs, there will be a very sharp decrease in salary, which will not go well with the high cost of med school.

 

[Dr JPH]

I don't think so since there are only 26 DO schools vs. the 125 MD schools. Another 100 medical schools seems far fetched, don't you think?

Exactly.

Who voted yes? Poor mathematicians.

 

[HarveyCushing]

I also wanted to add that the one issue I have had some worries about with going to an osteopathic medical school was the 3rd/4th years. I know some schools offer great rotations sites, but lets be honest that some are not as good as others. While our "true" training might begin in residency, I believe that 3rd/4th year are the most important during medical school. They kinda show PDs what we are capable of in a hospital setting, rather than behind a bunch of books and notes.

MD schools that have large teaching hospitals associated with the medical school are at an advantage over us. (I am sure some of the rotation sites of the more established schools could be similar). From my shadowing experiences, the setting and staff in a teaching hospital seemed more open to teach and passing down knowledge than those that I shadowed in private practice. (I might be wrong with my analysis.) A lot of the hospitals that schools like DMU, KCOM, KCUMB, CCOM rotate through are more of a private practice hospital, aren't they? I just think there is something about a school having its own medical center instead of being reliant upon others to do the teaching.

 

[HarveyCushing]

I think Boise State, U of Wyoming and maybe Washington state would be perfect places to open new schools in. Two of the places have no med schools in the state and have large undergrad campuses.

Yeah those schools would be great. I wish the AACOM would encourage these schools to open a DO school, rather than schools that intend to only have a medical school. With all the new DO schools popping up it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult for the likes of Boise State or Washington State to open up a school.

 

[Buckeye4life]

This is something that I would like to see as well. Like Alaska, N/S Dakota, Idaho..etc. All of those states have fairly large state universities with faculty and facilities. It would be nice to see them open up a DO school rather than having stand-alone medical schools like Touro or Lecom (this wasn't meant as a bash).

LECOM has signed an agreement with the University of Pittsburgh-Bradford to enroll undergrad students in a 3+4 program. While it is not the same as being directly under the umbrella of a major university, it is a good stepping stone into attracting more qualified students. Also, the Erie area has several universities within a 10-15 mile radius, such as Gannon University, Mercyherst College, and of course Pitt-Brad. Who knows, with a direct university affiliation, it could open up the possiblity of better research opportunities.

 

[turkleton]

I think the greater the quantitiy of these specialists the better; if you only train like 15 neurosurgeons nation wide a year (dont know the real number but guessing its something like this) you cant expect too many of them do come back and do research. I suppoe if you required a few research electives/months during the course of a residency you could probably help to improve this.

But for the time being I think increasing the number of DO specialty residencies will attract more students.

I am currently considering going to a DO school, the things I listed earlier are of great concern to me.

I think you and DKM have two valid points. Academic contributions are really the only way to gain prominence and "quality" in a department- despite what probably is excellent clinical training in little known inner city hospitals, without churning out publications they and the faculty remain exactly that- little known. Increasing number of DO's in high prestige/competitive fields may help increase recognition and translate to a slightly larger recruitment/larger DO physicians, but not hugely. The schools and physicians need to draw research dollars, make contributions in the field to warrant larger class sizes.

 

[sunnyjohn]

I think Boise State, U of Wyoming and maybe Washington state would be perfect places to open new schools in. Two of the places have no med schools in the state and have large undergrad campuses.

Yeah those schools would be great. I wish the AACOM would encourage these schools to open a DO school, rather than schools that intend to only have a medical school. With all the new DO schools popping up it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult for the likes of Boise State or Washington State to open up a school.

It would be good if they encouraged established undergrad schools to open DO schools. That wasy they would have an established educational and alumni (MONEY) base to draw from.

New DO schools associated with established undergrad schools in the WWAMI states (Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho) make sense.

 

[DragonWell]

It would be good if they encouraged established undergrad schools to open DO schools. That wasy they would have an established educational and alumni (MONEY) base to draw from.

New DO schools associated with established undergrad schools in the WWAMI states (Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho) make sense.

People often bring up the fact that it would be a nice to have more DO schools associated with large, public univerisities, and I have yet to hear anyone disagree that this is a good idea.

However, the underlying question that usually goes unaswered is what would compel these schools to open DO programs as opposed to MD? A desire to have greater access to OMM in their state? This is in someways the flipside of the argument that DO pretty much equals MD; if this is true, why should a state choose to invest in a DO school over the much better known MD degree?

If a state university is going to invest in a med school, it is likely going to be an MD school. Most, if not all, the public DO schools out there didn't start as public schools; they started as private schools which, once well established, were assimilated into the public system. I don't see this pattern changing anytime soon.

 

[turkleton]

People often bring up the fact that it would be a nice to have more DO schools associated with large, public univerisities, and I have yet to hear anyone disagree that this is a good idea.

However, the underlying question that usually goes unaswered is what would compel these schools to open DO programs as opposed to MD? A desire to have greater access to OMM in their state? This is in someways the flipside of the argument that DO pretty much equals MD; if this is true, why should a state choose to invest in a DO school over the much better known MD degree?

If a state university is going to invest in a med school, it is likely going to be an MD school. Most, if not all, the public DO schools out there didn't start as public schools; they started as private schools which, once well established, were assimilated into the public system. I don't see this pattern changing anytime soon.

Good point. I suppose the powers that be would more readily open new MD schools or increase MD class sizes to deal with upcoming shortages. The amount of work, money and investment you need to open a medical school... It's not like opening a lemonade stand... man i could use some lemonade.

 

[sunnyjohn]

People often bring up the fact that it would be a nice to have more DO schools associated with large, public univerisities, and I have yet to hear anyone disagree that this is a good idea.

However, the underlying question that usually goes unaswered is what would compel these schools to open DO programs as opposed to MD? A desire to have greater access to OMM in their state? This is in someways the flipside of the argument that DO pretty much equals MD; if this is true, why should a state choose to invest in a DO school over the much better known MD degree?

If a state university is going to invest in a med school, it is likely going to be an MD school. Most, if not all, the public DO schools out there didn't start as public schools; they started as private schools which, once well established, were assimilated into the public system. I don't see this pattern changing anytime soon.

Very good point.

Perhaps the "relaxed AOA escrow monetary requirement" to open a school would appeal to certain state schools.

Pete Debusk gave LMU $30M to start DCOM. Even though LMU is private, perhaps a state uni's alumni association could be encoraged to follow suite.

With limited state budgets, any new school is going to need private and public money.

 

[DragonWell]

Very good point.

Perhaps the "relaxed AOA escrow monetary requirement" to open a school would appeal to certain state schools.

Pete Debusk gave LMU $30M to start DCOM. Even though LMU is private, perhaps a state uni's alumni association could be encoraged to follow suite.

With limited state budgets, any new school is going to need private and public money.

Just to continue playing devil's advocate a bit, if the only good reason for states to open DO schools is that they can do it on a shoestring budget, in what way can we expect those schools to be any different or better than the private ones that are popping up?

 

[GreenShirt]

MD schools that have large teaching hospitals associated with the medical school are at an advantage over us. (I am sure some of the rotation sites of the more established schools could be similar). From my shadowing experiences, the setting and staff in a teaching hospital seemed more open to teach and passing down knowledge than those that I shadowed in private practice. (I might be wrong with my analysis.) A lot of the hospitals that schools like DMU, KCOM, KCUMB, CCOM rotate through are more of a private practice hospital, aren't they? I just think there is something about a school having its own medical center instead of being reliant upon others to do the teaching.

I think some of this applies to what ATSU-Mesa is doing with their new school. They're embedding their students in Community Health Centers for 3 yrs. Sure, they're not big prestigious teaching hospitals, but with 10 students/CHC, you get some attentive clinical training. Not to mention the both Republican and Democratic Presidents have been funneling money into the CHC's even when cutting Health Care budgets elsewhere. This idea could eventually develop into a good niche for DO's. Instead of state funded teaching hospitals, tap into Federally funded CHCs.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I would think that number of graduates has to be proportional to number of AOA residency spots or somewhat close to it. As long as the clinical numbers increase, enrollment will hopefully increase.

As we enter an age of community health rather than individual health, the osteopathic philosophy of medicine will be increasingly popular.

I don't think we will ever see osteopathic enrollment rival allopathic enrollement, but should definitely see a steady increase.

 

[bigdog8829]

I don't think so since there are only 26 DO schools vs. the 125 MD schools. Another 100 medical schools seems far fetched, don't you think?

My first thought. Thread closed