Will his schedule get any better?

[MissTeach09]

My fiancee is in his 2nd year of Residency for General Surgery. Will his schedule get any better? Or will it always be as crazy as it is now.

I'm not in the medical profession...actually I'm a Teacher. So I have no idea how everything works other than what I'm told by him.

Also, my colleagues from work always tell me "You better watch out for those nurses that are after your fiancee."

Should I really be worried about that? I have seen some of the nurses there and there are quite a bit that are attractive.

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[Winged Scapula]

My fiancee is in his 2nd year of Residency for General Surgery. Will his schedule get any better? Or will it always be as crazy as it is now.

It is program dependent.

In mine, my 3rd year was pretty chill (in comparison) but then got busier again, especially during my Chief residency year. The interns went home post-call but someone had to stay and do the cases, or the attendings didn't want to do big cases with the juniors, so the Chiefs were always over hours.

Some programs have Chiefs take in house call, and others do not. So look to his senior residents for an idea about what his life will be like.

Also, my colleagues from work always tell me "You better watch out for those nurses that are after your fiancee."

Should I really be worried about that? I have seen some of the nurses there and there are quite a bit that are attractive.

As a female surgeon formerly in a long-term relationship with a male surgeon, I can tell you that there is some truth to the above. Male physicians, and (for some women) especially surgeons, are seen as a
"great catch". Some ICU nurses once told me (when discussing a colleague that had left after marrying a CT surgeon) that landing a male surgeon was the "holy grail" because it meant you could retire, be financially comfortable and have a spouse who isn't around a lot (leaving you free to do whatever). Even less than attractive male surgeons often have women fluttering around them. I would not have believed it had I seen it with my ex and it did not matter that the nurses/allied health practitioners knew about me. The divorce rate is not only high in medicine because of the work hours; the predatory nature of some of your fiance's colleagues are also to blame, IMHO.

Whether or not its a problem, depends on the your relationship and your partner. Attractiveness is not the main problem. Men leave women all the time for women less attractive (you only need to look at supermodels with husbands who cheat them). Trying to compete with that is a losing battle because eventually age, gravity, etc. will catch up to you (that's not to say you need to let yourself go, but you understand). IMHO men want someone who makes them feel good about themselves, who makes them feel desirable, powerful, etc. This can be a struggle for anyone in a long-term relationship; you become comfortable and stop valuing each other in the way you did when you first go together. You *feel* the same, but you don't show it and life gets in the way. Make sure he knows who much you appreciate him, how wonderful he is, etc. Hearing it from you will trump the nurse that's also telling him the same thing.

One hopes that these women are not a threat to your relationship and my comments shouldn't make you paranoid, but realize that it is clearly much more of an issue than I ever saw with partners working in research labs, the business world, etc.

NB: and for those wondering about my above comments, my ex and I did not split over a nurse.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Winged Scapula makes good points. I can't disagree although in 7 years of knowing 50 mostly male GS residents, I can't recall a nurse getting an engaged or married resident.

As for the schedule, what do you mean by crazy? If you mean long hours, it may get some better. If you mean unpredictable hours, that's going to stay the same or perhaps get worse.

All bets are off after residency depending on what he wants to do. There are plenty of 50 hr/week, fairly predictable hour surgery jobs. There are plenty of 80-100 hr/week, totally unpredictable jobs too. The ability to get one of the previous type of jobs depends on both your and his willingness to

1) move where the jobs are
2) take what the jobs pay (less than an 80 hr/week job, all else equal)
3) do what the jobs require (i.e. maybe fixing hernias and not doing heart transplants)

The best piece of advice above is talk to the other spouses. They will understand what you are going though and probably have more insight into what's ahead than your fiance does.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Winged Scapula makes good points. I can't disagree although in 7 years of knowing 50 mostly male GS residents, I can't recall a nurse getting an engaged or married resident.

Probably because there was nothing else to do there, but we had several (3 or 4) that I can recall who ended up dating and marrying nurses or other allied health professionals during residency. A few others ended up with other residents. If I look to the other surgery program in town (where my ex was), a couple of his colleagues also ended up marrying nurses.

 

[DeadCactus]

Probably because there was nothing else to do there, but we had several (3 or 4) that I can recall who ended up dating and marrying nurses or other allied health professionals during residency. A few others ended up with other residents. If I look to the other surgery program in town (where my ex was), a couple of his colleagues also ended up marrying nurses.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took it to mean he hadn't seen a nurse steal someone's fiance or husband.

 

[SocialistMD]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took it to mean he hadn't seen a nurse steal someone's fiance or husband.

Knowing what I do of his program, that is what he means. We've had a couple residents marry hospital staff (physical therapists, pharmacists), but none have stolen engaged or married physicians from their s.o.'s.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Knowing what I do of his program, that is what he means. We've had a couple residents marry hospital staff (physical therapists, pharmacists), but none have stolen engaged or married physicians from their s.o.'s.

Ahh...I assumed incorrectly.

Yes, I agree...I have never seen anyone "stolen" either (although it was rumoured to have happened with one of our CT and Surg Onc surgeons) , although I have seen some outrageous flirting behavior. Even in front of me...fortunately, I am better than those floozies!

 

[MissTeach09]

Thank you for everyones kind responses. I really appreciate it.

I think a lot of my colleagues have an overexposure to Grey's. lol. They're just trying to protect me from getting hurt.

I definitely have a lot of respect for everyone in the medical field...I didn't know how intense Residency is until met my Fiancee.

Even though we're in two completely different professions...our personalities balance each other out pretty nicely.

 

[JackADeli]

Ahh...I assumed incorrectly.

Yes, I agree...I have never seen anyone "stolen" either (although it was rumoured to have happened with one of our CT and Surg Onc surgeons) , although I have seen some outrageous flirting behavior. Even in front of me...fortunately, I am better than those floozies!

while an intern, I knew a cardiac fellow that was married and I think with kid/s. I didn't pay too much attention to gossip, but it did seem like a PA ended up in the middle of that marriage. Though, as someone not to involved in the matter, I could be wrong. I was also under the impression that a NS resident married, etc.... ended up involved with a junior resident... Again, I am not speaking from first hand observation. If these didn't happen then the environment left a big impression/perception that they did.

Then during my PGY3 year of GSurgery, a more junior surgery resident, married, had an affair with a nurse, got divorced, etc..... Those are just a few without even thinking about it very much.

IMHO, I think there really is a somewhat more intense pradatory environment for lack of a better word.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I once walked in on that CT PA sitting in the lap of the CT fellow with her lips on him. Had forgotten about that until you reminded me. Her husband was a Cards fellow there.

Since the Nsgy intern and I were friends I can verify that story as well.

Guess I should rescind my comment above. I have seen husband stealing in my residency.

 

[Treg]

As an aside, what do you guys think of programs that turn a blind eye to this sort of thing? I know of a program where an attending started having an affair with a 4th year med student, then the student still matched there even though everyone knew. And in this same program a younger attending, as he was going through a nasty divorce, started dating a senior resident in their program. Both of these types of incidents have occurred in this same program over the past decade as well.

For me, it makes the program less desirable to train in if they have a low ethical standard for professionalism. Just my opinion though....

Treg

 

[dotdash]

Great article in the Sept Atlantic Monthly "Sex and the Married Man" subtitled, "How Helen Gurley Brown inspired a generation of homewreckers".

Quote:
“You are so hot,” Rielle Hunter said, because she turned out to be another woman with a cavalier attitude toward wives.

In my academic life, I knew a professor's wife who successfully sued the university for hiring a professor who was generally known to be having an affair with her husband (complicated story, so please don't respond "that could never happen"). Needless to say, it ruined his career (and the homewrecker's career) and I bet it made her feel better.

 

[MissTeach09]

I once walked in on that CT PA sitting in the lap of the CT fellow with her lips on him. Had forgotten about that until you reminded me. Her husband was a Cards fellow there.

Since the Nsgy intern and I were friends I can verify that story as well.

Guess I should rescind my comment above. I have seen husband stealing in my residency.

Ok, now after reading more comments...I'm back to being nervous again...husband stealing??

Husband stealing happens quite frequently where I Teach...except it's not with people we work with. It's Teachers having affairs with fathers of students that are married...homewreckers much?

 

[Moonglow]

What you read above is classic hospital gossip.

Affairs happen in all professions. But Good Lord, any surgeon who marries a damn nurse gets what he deserves.

 

[JackADeli]

...I can tell you that there is some truth to the above. ...Some ICU nurses once told me ...that landing a male surgeon was the "holy grail" ... Even less than attractive male surgeons often have women fluttering around them. ...the work hours; the predatory nature of some ...colleagues are also to blame, IMHO.

...IMHO men want someone who makes them feel good about themselves, who makes them feel desirable, powerful, etc. This can be a struggle for anyone in a long-term relationship; you become comfortable and stop valuing each other in the way you did when you first go together. ...Make sure he knows who much you appreciate him, how wonderful he is, etc...

As an aside, what do you guys think of programs that turn a blind eye to this sort of thing? ...
For me, it makes the program less desirable to train in if they have a low ethical standard for professionalism...

Just my opinion but....
First, numerous companies and organizations do have "ethics" and "morals" clauses. The reality is that they are not enforced. Folks in this country... and perhaps most other countries are loath to comment on someone's "personal life". Let's face it, there was a huge split in public opinion as to the president of the USA having an affair with an intern... in the white house, aka AT WORK. We do not in general value a solid and protected family values approach. That is just reality. Now that I think about it, hospitals are full of this behavior. Not only is a blind eye often turned, but numerous times folks are "enabled".

The environment is is emotionally charged and actually financially charged. Physicians have full benefits packages and with rare exceptions an excellent income. An individual could sacrifice a very comfortable two spouse/parent working family situation and after all the heartbreak and sadness still end up in a more "secure" financial setting, not having to work, and being more of a socialite.... So, plenty make that jump.... and "trade up". Give up working single nurse life or married to mechanic/paramedic/nurse/PA/teacher/etc... So, yes, there is very predatory conduct in some settings.

As I think about it, I can recall numerous occurances of this conduct....

Surgical attending (married to a nurse) involved with med-student or PGY1 intern
Married Pediatric surgery attending involved with nurses
Married Cardiac trainee with PA wife of cardiology trainee
Married Cardiac trainee with ICU nurse
NSGY intern with married chief resident
Telemetry nurse with married GSGY resident (whose spouse also worked in the hospital)
Married Surgery resident involved with their medical student on rotation

That is the short list of cases I know about. The list is even longer including other cases that I lacked some direct knowledge of. Bottom line, it is a reality in quite a few hospitals. It will remain a reality until such time as certain standards are established and enforced.

A friend of mine once said gleefully, "residency is so great, it's a bordelle..."

JAD

PS: Even to this day, I find nurses particularly forward and flirtatious. Their level of flirtatiousness can actually increase to the obnoxious after they learn I'm married.

 

[MissTeach09]

Second question:

Am I the only person that ISN'T in the medical field engaged to a surgical resident?

I've met some of his colleagues and their SO's and everyone is somehow in the medical field.

Whenever I'm at a gathering I get unbelieveably quiet and just smile smile smile.

It sure does feel lonely at those kind of stuff.

 

[smq123]

Also, my colleagues from work always tell me "You better watch out for those nurses that are after your fiancee."

Some of that is probably influenced by soap operas and TV shows like Grey's Anatomy.

I think that it's very program and hospital dependent. At some hospitals, that's not the nursing culture....they just don't seem to have a lot of nurses who are interested in that type of behavior. At other places, it happens a lot more frequently.

I will say, however, that many nurses seem to find flirting in the OR with residents a fringe benefit of the job. I vividly remember one very overweight, middle aged OR nurse flirting with a male ENT resident who was young enough to be her son. If that wasn't bad enough, the main conversation in the OR that day was....(wait for it)....WHAT HE WAS PLANNING ON NAMING HIS FIRST CHILD THAT WAS DUE TO BE BORN IN A FEW MONTHS. I can't think of a conversation that would be less conducive to flirting, but there you have it.

(In case you're wondering, yes I had a hard time not throwing up, and yes I lost all respect for that nurse. BLECH.)

Ultimately, a lot of it will come down to how your husband acts at work, and the culture of his program. I rotated through a urology program where all the residents were male, young, and attractive, and most were married or engaged. That being said, there was VERY little flirting going on in those ORs, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that a) it was a very family oriented program (i.e. attendings and residents were welcome to talk about their families freely) and b) the residents all gave off the impression that they couldn't wait to get home to their families at the end of the day. If a resident gives off the impression that he is happily married and therefore emotionally "off limits," then the nurses will eventually stop flirting so aggressively with him.

Am I the only person that ISN'T in the medical field engaged to a surgical resident?

I've met some of his colleagues and their SO's and everyone is somehow in the medical field.

Whenever I'm at a gathering I get unbelieveably quiet and just smile smile smile.

It sure does feel lonely at those kind of stuff.

No, I've met surgery residents who were married to teachers, professors, lawyers, etc.

I hope that you don't feel intimidated at these gatherings....although I can imagine that it's difficult to find a way to get involved in the heavily technical and "shop-oriented" conversations that tend to dominate.

Have you talked to your fiancee about how lonely you feel sometimes? Maybe there's some way he can draw you into conversation?

 

[SLUser11]

Second question:

Am I the only person that ISN'T in the medical field engaged to a surgical resident?

I've met some of his colleagues and their SO's and everyone is somehow in the medical field.

Whenever I'm at a gathering I get unbelieveably quiet and just smile smile smile.

It sure does feel lonely at those kind of stuff.

My wife is not in the medical field (anymore, I guess...she used to be a drug rep), and she is frequently annoyed and bored out of her head when a big group of doctors get together....we just can't help ourselves, and we end up talking shop the whole time. I can see how that is frustrating, and I try my best to redirect conversation to something neutral......still, I can't help myself either. Since surgery is more of a life-choice than a job, it's hard to turn it off when you get home.

As for predatory behavior, I find that it's a two way street. Doctors who have flirtatious behavior are very likely to be reciprocated, married or not, attractive or not. If you keep it professional, and you wear your wedding ring outside the OR, most nurses will respect your boundaries, even if you are really, really, ridiculously good looking.....

 

[JackADeli]

...Whether or not its a problem, depends on the your relationship and your partner. ...

...As for ...behavior, I find that it's a two way street. ...If you keep it professional, ...most nurses will respect your boundaries, even if you are really, really, ridiculously good looking.....

I think what has been said above is accurate. I have been fortunate enough to be married over a decade.... through residencies and several hospitals. It will ultimately come down to your particular relationship. The conduct of others at the hospital generally only goes so far.... a successful kill (by the predator/s) ultimately rests on a decision/choice made by the target/game/physician.

 

[jeesapeesa]

"In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

-scarface

i can't wait for the end of residency and being single at the same time.

 

[Winged Scapula]

...most nurses will respect your boundaries, even if you are really, really, ridiculously good looking.....

Like this?

 

[goooooober]

Like this?

HOW THE HELL DID YOU GET THAT PHOTO OF ME????? I had just finished disempacting a patient, so my hair was a little messy.

Honestly, I have to admit, nurses do find it hard to keep their hands off of me. Whether it is to let me know someone is coding or to sign an order, their little fingers are always all over me. Well, more like aggressive poking and slaping the back of my head really hard. Some even have thrown objects at me, like a shoe.

What can I say, when you look like me (see my pic in Winged Scapulas post), people cant resist.

One thing I don't understand is even when I mention the sexual indiscretions of the nurses to my wife, she still insists that she has nothing to worry about. Can you believe this?

 

[SLUser11]

Like this?

What is this? A center for ANTS!?!

How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to read if they can't even fit inside the building?

 

[MissTeach09]

What is this? A center for ANTS!?!

How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to read if they can't even fit inside the building?

"So join now, 'cause at the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too, we teach you that there's more to life than just being really, really, really good looking. Right kids?"

 

[IOE]

Interesting posts everyone.....and thanx for giving me a new headache....
I just got married 5 months ago after a 4 yrs relationship the last 2 of which were long distance. About 4 days ago i forgot to log off the PC and my dear wife read all of this...for 4 days this has been the topic all day, before breakfast lunch and dinner....and specially after sex.....and there is no hope of an end to it in the near future...

really.....great!

P.S. "husband stealing" does happen....its amazing how most females treat you after they hear u r off the market...honestly I dont support cheating, but the flirting is kindda flattering....but i WILL NEVER NEVER DO THAT! (just in case she reads this)

 

[SLUser11]

About 4 days ago i forgot to log off the PC and my dear wife read all of this...

Rookie mistake.....looks like you learned the hard way.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Am I the only person that ISN'T in the medical field engaged to a surgical resident?
.

Ask if his hospital has some sort of spouse's organization. At least where I am the non-medical wives have a very active formal organization.

 

[Treg]

Ask if his hospital has some sort of spouse's organization. At least where I am the non-medical wives have a very active formal organization.

What about those of us with non-medical husbands? My husband is a teacher, and so for each of us we are the gender minority in our profession. He also gets irked by lots of medical shop talk when we get together with my medical colleagues. I just try to be sensitive to that and keep him involved by redirecting the conversation, or warning everyone as a joke when we get together "no medical talk tonight!" It is probably healthy to try to take a mental break, anyway.

 

[Skelfie]

"In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

-scarface

Hrmph! I don't know where you've been getting your information, but around these parts, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, and then you get the women.

 

[JackADeli]

...i forgot to log off the PC and my dear wife read all of this...

your significant other should be aware and a part of your on-line discussions. It looks alot less like explanations and excuses if you introduce her first as opposed to her new found discovery. Eliminate some secrecy and then such things do not end up a source of insecurity.

Interesting posts everyone.....this has been the topic all day, ....and specially after sex...

You probably have an issue there..... especially if this is the topic of discussion after sex. It would seem when the deed is done she is not very reassured. I think IMHO something must be going wrong. Seriously, get some counseling. Best of luck.

JAD

 

[Pilot Doc]

What about those of us with non-medical husbands?

They're out of luck at my institution. The "housestaff auxillary" specifically prohibits men from joining.

 

[goooooober]

You probably have an issue there..... especially if this is the topic of discussion after sex.
JAD

Dr. Love here.

Completely agree with JAD. IOE, sounds like you are inadequate in bed. If her ass is not sound asleep after you tap it, you haven't worked her well.

Let me educate you IOE. My fourth wife was a heffer. I mean she was BIG. I mean when she went for a walk, I could hear the bit**'s footsteps from 5 blocks away. Anyways, she used to like to talk after she got me drunk enough to do her. Well, what happened was not only was I violated everytime and developed peripheral neuropathy, I often woke up with a nasty headache (not from the alcohol, but from her talking).

Well, one day I made the decision that I did not want to hear her anymore. I first contacted my lawyer and filed for my fourth divorce. Then, I refused to get drunk before doing the monkey watusi with her. Instead, I focused on only one thing, shutting her up.

Let me tell you, it took several bottles of the friendly blue pill, but I did it, I put all her 490 lb ass to sleep. From that day until our divorce finalized 30 days later for $99.99, I never got a headache again.

I would also recommend computer lesson for you.

Good luck.

Sincerely

Dr. Love

 

[Skelfie]

Dr. Love here.
Let me educate you IOE. My fourth wife was a heffer. I mean she was BIG. I mean when she went for a walk, I could hear the bit**'s footsteps from 5 blocks away. Anyways, she used to like to talk after she got me drunk enough to do her. Well, what happened was not only was I violated everytime and developed peripheral neuropathy, I often woke up with a nasty headache (not from the alcohol, but from her talking).

Well, one day I made the decision that I did not want to hear her anymore. I first contacted my lawyer and filed for my fourth divorce. Then, I refused to get drunk before doing the monkey watusi with her. Instead, I focused on only one thing, shutting her up.

Let me tell you, it took several bottles of the friendly blue pill, but I did it, I put all her 490 lb ass to sleep. From that day until our divorce finalized 30 days later for $99.99, I never got a headache again.

I would also recommend computer lesson for you.

Good luck.

Sincerely

Dr. Love

Dr. Love, your post confuses me. First of all, you were fortunate enough not only to find the world's only talking cow (who happened to speak your language, to boot!), but you were also lucky enough to win her hand in marriage. And then you complain that she wanted to do the horizontal mambo with you - and talk! I think this is a case of looking the gift horse (bovine) in the mouth.

Yours,
Confused in Chicago

 

[MissTeach09]

Speaking of cows...I think I'll be as big as cow in the near future since I found out I'm pregnant with Triplets earlier today.

We're both excited. Has anyone else start a family during residency?

I'm excited and nervous because I'm afraid he might miss out on some parts of the kids lives.

 

[njbmd]

I think what has been said above is accurate. I have been fortunate enough to be married over a decade.... through residencies and several hospitals. It will ultimately come down to your particular relationship. The conduct of others at the hospital generally only goes so far.... a successful kill (by the predator/s) ultimately rests on a decision/choice made by the target/game/physician.

Never have truer words been spoken. I love my colleagues to death and enjoy being around them. One of them is downright gorgeous which makes for great "eye candy" during conferences but for me, I have the best at home and I make sure I take care of and " home fires" before they get out of control. My colleagues feel the same way and all of us are married or in committed relationships.

I have been in a committed relationship for more than 15 years (we are like Tim Robbins/Susan Sarandon or Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell) and it's weathered medical school, residency and fellowship. (He's a bodybuilder/personal trainer and he looks good). We are probably not going to get married (my choice not his) but I don't see either of us heading off into the sunset with others.

My other rule was that any hospital that I worked in was totally "off limits" for anything romantic/lust. I discourage my residents and medical students from becoming involved with hospital staff. One of the residents in another department was rumored to have spread an STD to a couple of the unit secretaries and a couple nurses who had been providing "call room service". None of those "booty calls" ended up in marriage or breaking up marriages but some STDs were passed around.

 

[Pilot Doc]

We're both excited. Has anyone else start a family during residency?

I'm excited and nervous because I'm afraid he might miss out on some parts of the kids lives.

1) You should start a new thread if you really are asking about raising triplets with a surgical resident. There is a small part of me that wonders if this is real. My apologies if you are - we do contend with people who post wild stories for kicks.
2) Lots of people have started a family during residency, myself included. And I do know a resident who had triplets.
3) He will miss out on some parts of the kids lives. No question. However, this is true of any physician parent, resident or not, surgeon or not. It does not mean he will be a bad father or the kids will suffer.

 

[-Goose-]

1) You should start a new thread if you really are asking about raising triplets with a surgical resident. There is a small part of me that wonders if this is real. My apologies if you are - we do contend with people who post wild stories for kicks.
2) Lots of people have started a family during residency, myself included. And I do know a resident who had triplets.
3) He will miss out on some parts of the kids lives. No question. However, this is true of any physician parent, resident or not, surgeon or not. It does not mean he will be a bad father or the kids will suffer.

I know NS resident with quadruplets. Great family guy.

 

[Doctor]

He will miss out on some parts of the kids lives. No question. It does not mean he will be a bad father or the kids will suffer.

Generally, children of surgeons actually do grow up resenting the lost time with their parent. Surgeons don't tend to coach the Little League teams. Heck, they don't even tend to make it to all the games. Or even to half of the games.

So, Miss Teach.. the onus is on you to pick up the slack where your surgeon hubby can't be there. Don't just attend the baseball games, learn about the sport. Be a knowledgeable observer! That's what kids want... not just a parent to be there, but a parent who knows what is going on.

Maybe you were lucky and your children will be female. It's easier for a mom to be a "good ballerina mom" than a "good baseball dad", after all.

And Miss Teach... you've touched on the major drawback to surgery. The reason why so many medical student are choosing "lifestyle specialties" instead of surgery these days, is exactly this. It's excruciatingly difficult, if not impossible, to be a very good surgeon and a very good dad... simultaneously. Ignorance is bliss, but this is the absolute truth on the matter.