Will slacking off during a single rotation during med school sink you?

[DropkickMurphy]

OK, so I find the idea of OB/GYN absolutely disgusting (I mean who in their right mind would want to look at diseased crotch for a living?) and after having delivered three babies as an EMT I can fairly state that it's the one thing that still reliably makes me puke after all these years . So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

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[EM Junkie]

I think it is more important what sort of comments are placed in your evaluation than the actual grade you earn. At my school, the ENTIRE comments section from your rotations in third year are "copied and pasted" into the dean's letter. So, while a basic "pass" in Ob/Gyn won't sink you, comments like "Does as little work as possible" and "Unmotivated student" sure will - and fast! (For those that don't know - the dean's letter is sent to all residency programs you apply to).

I think it also depends on what specialty you want to enter. As an EMT, if you plan on going into Emergency Medicine, you better bet that they care about your Ob/Gyn grade. I have done 20 times as many pelvics in the Emergency Department than I ever did in Ob/Gyn. On the other hand, some specialties like Psychiatry or Surgery could probably care less. I have heard that (on average), IM and Surgery grades are looked at the most (ie: they honor less people), then Ob/Gyn, then Neuro/FP/Peds, then Psych at the very bottom. This is just from my experiences, of course they will differ depending on your school and what specialty you plan on entering.

I liked Ob/Gyn, but I was also at a very nice program with great teaching and VERY LITTLE gyn clinic. Most of our gyn experience was minor surgical stuff and not clinics!

Either way, best of luck - it's not THAT bad!

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Actually I have only a passing interest in EM. I'm actually far more interested in diagnostic radiology, cardiology, ENT, gas, rad/onc, gastro, hematology or urology. But thank you for your input.

 

[Orange Julius]

OK, so I find the idea of OB/GYN absolutely disgusting (I mean who in their right mind would want to look at diseased crotch for a living?) and after having delivered three babies as an EMT I can fairly state that it's the one thing that still reliably makes me puke after all these years . So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

There's a whole nother reason not to slack too much on your Ob/gyn rotation. Those nasty ho's will kick the crap out of you.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I don't think it will be so much "slacking off", but rather passing out. I have this habit of puking and passing out when I am around a labor in progress. It's funny that I can sew back together the face of a dead man who went through a windshield so he can be viewed at his funeral, but I can't watch a baby be born. Strange huh?

 

[southerndoc]

Don't all residency PD's give more weight to OB/gyn and psychiatry than any other clerkship?

Definitely would help to honor both of them!

 

[Stinger86]

So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

I skipped half of my OBGyn rotation (paid for it grade-wise, though). It was the most miserable 6 weeks (well, i guess 3 weeks ) of my life.

The answer to your question depends on your school and the field into which you are applying.

At my school the dean's office scans individual student clerkship evaluations and only puts in the comments that are consistent from one rotation to the next. For example, if OB said I was a terrible student who never showed up in clinic or in the OR and that I ALSO had a rotten attitude, but all my other rotations said I was a great student who was punctual, interested, and great with patients/residents/staff, my dean's office will leave out the OB comments. It suffices to say that my dean's letter comments were glowing, although a bit inaccurate.

Of course, a lot depends on the field in which you plan to spend your career. If you're going into a less competitive field or one that doesn't really give two craps about OB/Gyn (or whatever clerkship you hate), then you have nothing to worry about. More competitive fields (like Rads) are a different story. If you really want into the harder-to-get-in residencies, you're going to have to pay the price. I think even a single bad rotation can hurt your chances.

 

[BKN]

At my school the dean's office scans individual student clerkship evaluations and only puts in the comments that are consistent from one rotation to the next. For example, if OB said I was a terrible student who never showed up in clinic or in the OR and that I ALSO had a rotten attitude, but all my other rotations said I was a great student who was punctual, interested, and great with patients/residents/staff, my dean's office will leave out the OB comments. It suffices to say that my dean's letter comments were glowing, although a bit inaccurate.

And that, boys and girls is why I can't trust the dean's letters and put more (too much?) emphasis on MLE scores.

Letters, dean's and others need to be honest and complete or they are useless, not to mention unethical.

BKN
EM PDS

 

[BKN]

OK, so I find the idea of OB/GYN absolutely disgusting (I mean who in their right mind would want to look at diseased crotch for a living?) and after having delivered three babies as an EMT I can fairly state that it's the one thing that still reliably makes me puke after all these years . So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

I gather you're at the premed level. You may have a very different take after basic science and a couple of rotations. When you get to OB/GYN suck it up and do the job as well as you can, just like everything else you do. You'll be a better Doctor for it, regradless of your ultimate specialty.

 

[Stinger86]

And that, boys and girls is why I can't trust the dean's letters and put more (too much?) emphasis on MLE scores.

Letters, dean's and others need to be honest and complete or they are useless, not to mention unethical.

BKN
EM PDS

This is absolutely true. I feel sorry for the students whose schools put every single comment in their dean's letter. It only hurts them.

 

[Stinger86]

I gather you're at the premed level. You may have a very different take after basic science and a couple of rotations. When you get to OB/GYN suck it up and do the job as well as you can, just like everything else you do. You'll be a better Doctor for it, regradless of your ultimate specialty.

Unless your particular school's OB/Gyn rotation sucks, then you have a problem.

The situation is different for everyone. Just because I didn't take my OB rotation seriously and you did, doesn't mean you'll be a slightly better doctor. As it turns out, my family medicine rotation had me spend half my time on the OB/Gyn service, which has a reputation for being an outstanding learning opportunity. I knew this ahead of time, which is part of the reason why I slacked during my actual OB rotation. You don't always have to endure everything you don't enjoy, hoping to learn something. There are usually better options out there. It's called using your head.

 

[EM Junkie]

Removed Post

 

[southerndoc]

You may also want to know that BKN is Dr. xxxxxx, the Emergency Medicine residency program director at xxxxxx. I think we can all agree that he knows how to "use his head" by now...... (Although I do believe he has become addicted to SDN just like the rest of us!)

It is not appropriate to identify SDN users by their real names. If BKN wants to identify himself by his/her real name, then it is BKN's choice.

Please edit your post immediately to remove BKN's real name.

 

[IlianaSedai]

So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

I'm of the opinion that it won't make a huge difference. You don't have to honor the rotation. I would just put in a sincere effort to get through it and let the grades fall where they may. If you demonstrate yourself to be a nasty person, that's one thing, but if you're an honest average person I think you would be fine.

 

[BKN]

It is not appropriate to identify SDN users by their real names. If BKN wants to identify himself by his/her real name, then it is BKN's choice.

Please edit your post immediately to remove BKN's real name.

Thank you for reminding us of the rules.

As it happens, I don't mind.

Brian Nelson
Professor and PD
Texas Tech EM

 

[BKN]

So if I were to slack off and do the bare minimum during my OB/GYN rotation in medical school how much would this affect my chances for match if I received high marks in all my other rotations? Just wondering......

I read several hundred transcripts and dean's letters a year. Only a small minority have all high pass and honors in their 3rd year. almost everyone has a couple of "passes". So if you don't fail any rotations, a pass in Ob/Gyn will probably not affect a match in an unrelated field very much.

I suggest though, that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. In the midst of all of the gunning to get into med school and then to residency, students often forget to whom you're obligated. It's not about you; it's all about your patients. They have placed themselves in your hands and you are taking their money. When you're in practice, you will see women, many will be of reproductive age, some will be pregnant. You will not always have a Ob/Gyn in easy reach. You must know the basics of the field to practice in any other specialty.

To be a good doctor, it's important to maintain your own wellness. It's very important to maintain your family. After that it important to learn as much as you can stand.

You are not preparing yourself for a job, despite many comments to the contrary on SDN. You are preparing yourself for the modern priesthood. Like the priesthood, it's very hard and there are many failures. Don't be one of them.

 

[EM Junkie]

I am sorry BKN if I erred by listing your name. I figured you did not mind as you had identified yourself on numerous occasions in other posts. In retrospect, it was still not my place and I have removed my original post.

We do appreciate your input though!

 

[BKN]

I am sorry BKN if I erred by listing your name. I figured you did not mind as you had identified yourself on numerous occasions in other posts. In retrospect, it was still not my place and I have removed my original post.

We do appreciate your input though!

Not to worry. You were right, I don't care. I think it may be important to many of you to maintain anonymity so that you can speak freely. In my position, it may be more important that the other SDNers know who I am.

p.s. You were also right about the SDN addiction thing. Not sure how that happened.

 

[southerndoc]

p.s. You were also right about the SDN addiction thing. Not sure how that happened.

It just kind of creeps up on you.

Our new SDN Anonymous meeting is being held in Washington, DC. Should I send you an invite?

Actually I wish more PD's would peruse this board and scutwork.com.

 

[cyanocobalamin]

I read several hundred transcripts and dean's letters a year. Only a small minority have all high pass and honors in their 3rd year. almost everyone has a couple of "passes". So if you don't fail any rotations, a pass in Ob/Gyn will probably not affect a match in an unrelated field very much.

There are also a myriad of grading systems out there. Some places like Stanford have no grades all 4 years as well as no AOA. Some schools give a large percentage of honors for some clerkships (a certain school in the state of PA has more than 50% of its students honoring family medicine, e.g.). Some schools do verbatim comments for mspe, some edit them extensively and even let students edit them to a certain degree.

Also, I have noticed a real disconnect between how hard one works and what kind of comments one gets on an eval. You can bust your tail and get bland comments. You might also be doing nothing and get a great eval anyway. It is somewhat random and capricous and the H designations do seem that way a lot of time (ours are by committee at the end of the year limited to a small fraction of each field - we are only H/P, 3rd year only (rest are P now/P later)).

The next part of this post goes to whether medical school attended matters which was brought up in another post. Yes, it does. For some specialties you'll note no real pattern about what kind of medical school the students went to. But some you do. Let's use EM as an example since everyone here seems to talk about it a lot. Take HAERM - the Harvard Affiliated Residency in Emergency Medicine. Most of the students do come from top tier schools. Yes there are some people from non UCSF non Harvard like schools but they seem scarcer than the Harvard like UCSF like people.

http://www.haemr.org/people-pgy1.html

 

[Annette]

And that, boys and girls is why I can't trust the dean's letters and put more (too much?) emphasis on MLE scores.

Letters, dean's and others need to be honest and complete or they are useless, not to mention unethical.

BKN
EM PDS

Didn't the AAMC revamp how they wanted Dean's letters done so the letters didn't use "code" to rate the students and gave a more objective picture?

 

[tigershark]

I hated every minute of Ob/Gyn, got a Pass in it, my only P in 3rd year.

I'm interviewing for radiology now and have interviews at the majority of the so-called "top-tier" programs and nobody seems to care.

One guy asked about the P in Ob/Gyn and when I told him straight up I just hated it he just smiled and said "Great, I think you'll really fit in here."

Ob/Gyn is almost universally despised.

 

[kassie]

If you slack off, you are hurting your fellow students by putting the burden on them as well as having the potential storm from the residents land on their head. Students tend to be judged as a group as well as individually.

And the patients see you (or should) more than anyone else at times, so if your enthusiasm doesn't show, they will not have as good a feeling. Ob/Gyn is a very private thing for the patient and if someone isn't interested, it isn't good for the patient.

Only slack off with the studying if you're going to give up on anything.

Listen, it's only 6 weeks. Put your all into it and learn as much as you can with a smile on your face. When it's over you can say "thank god I'm going into x and not Ob/Gyn." It's a matter of respect.

BTW, our school includes MSPE verbatim with some editing for spelling/grammar.

Enjoy! It probably won't be the last time you see someone give birth!

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Enjoy! It probably won't be the last time you see someone give birth!

If that's a reference to my becoming a father- too late. That happened in August. Trust me I much prefer the view of a birth from the shoulder area.

I guess I will make the best of it. Of course I can take the advice of Sacrament and make damn sure that all the patients know I am a student and that I am not very experienced. Chances are most women would have a problem with this.

 

[kassie]

In my experience with Ob/Gyn, a lot of patients didn't care that I was a student (and I am very vocal about just being a student). They liked the fact that I was interested in their well-being and to them their comfort was more important than mine. In fact, one patient would talk to no one but me and another was sad when I wasn't there for her epidural. Another took pictures of all of us after the birth. I found the whole experience very rewarding but I would never want to do it for a living.

And it is not a gender thing. My husband was doing Ob/Gyn at the same time and had a similar experience.

You get what you give I guess.

Good luck!

Of course I can take the advice of Sacrament and make damn sure that all the patients know I am a student and that I am not very experienced. Chances are most women would have a problem with this.

 

[kassie]

PS - congrats on being a dad!

 

[BKN]

Didn't the AAMC revamp how they wanted Dean's letters done so the letters didn't use "code" to rate the students and gave a more objective picture?

The AAMC created a suggested format. Different schools seem to pick and choose from it, the same way they pick and choose about grading. It makes it really hard to get anything out of the dean's letter, but I suppose it's margnially better than what we got before.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

In my experience with Ob/Gyn, a lot of patients didn't care that I was a student (and I am very vocal about just being a student). They liked the fact that I was interested in their well-being and to them their comfort was more important than mine. In fact, one patient would talk to no one but me and another was sad when I wasn't there for her epidural. Another took pictures of all of us after the birth. I found the whole experience very rewarding but I would never want to do it for a living.

And it is not a gender thing. My husband was doing Ob/Gyn at the same time and had a similar experience.

You get what you give I guess.

Good luck!

Hmmm....all the guys I've talked to have said that women were hesitant to have them do their exams.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

PS - congrats on being a dad!

Thanks.....this is my little girl:

 

[Teufelhunden]

When you're in practice, you will see women, many will be of reproductive age, some will be pregnant. You will not always have a Ob/Gyn in easy reach. You must know the basics of the field to practice in any other specialty.

Even Psychiatry? How would a lack of OBGYN knowledge hinder me as a Psychiatrist?

 

[BKN]

Even Psychiatry? How would a lack of OBGYN knowledge hinder me as a Psychiatrist?

I really don't want to get in a flame war with a psych resident, but don't you need to know the biology and psychotherapy of post partum depression and psychosis? Don't you need to know which psych drugs are contraindicated in pregnancy or the nursing mother? Do you ever have to do GMO duty? don't you need to know which drugs used in Ob/Gyn are likely to have psychiatric side effects?

I'm not trying to fight here. It's just I'm an dumb ED doc and I believe I see patients regularly where the two specialties overlap.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Touche'

Teufelhunden, he's got you there. By the way, just so you know, your screenname is a misspelling of the term for "Devil Dogs" in German. Correctly it's "Teufelshunde". No harm no foul, even the Marine Corps Museum has it misspelled on a display from what I hear.

 

[southerndoc]

I really don't want to get in a flame war with a psych resident, but don't you need to know the biology and psychotherapy of post partum depression and psychosis? Don't you need to know which psych drugs are contraindicated in pregnancy or the nursing mother? Do you ever have to do GMO duty? don't you need to know which drugs used in Ob/Gyn are likely to have psychiatric side effects?

Apparently they don't need to know, at least where I trained for OB/gyn. During my month rotation on OB, I was consulted at least every other day for pregnant patients admitted to the psychiatric service or being discharged on psychiatric medicines. The reason for the consult? For me to clear patients to receive certain psychiatric medicines. Lovely!

It's funny how an ED resident is giving clearance to a psychiatry attending on what meds to use. Can't he use ePocrates just like me?

 

[jojo14]

I don't really know what your plan of slacking entails, but I would just reiterate the importance of being positive and being nice to everyone all the time, because you don't know who is watching you. Even if you are miserable and would rather be strung up by your fingernails. I don't think (hopefully) that you are one of these people!

It amazes me what can make or break your years of hard work in a second. I was at a residency talk recently where one of the PD's told us about somebody in our medical school class "wouldn't be matching with them" after one of the residents of the program on their off-service rotation had seen this person dissing a fellow med student.

So I guess it's okay to hate obgyn in general, but make sure it doesn't go further than that!

 

[Teufelhunden]

I really don't want to get in a flame war with a psych resident, but don't you need to know the biology and psychotherapy of post partum depression and psychosis? Don't you need to know which psych drugs are contraindicated in pregnancy or the nursing mother? Do you ever have to do GMO duty? don't you need to know which drugs used in Ob/Gyn are likely to have psychiatric side effects?

I'm not trying to fight here. It's just I'm an dumb ED doc and I believe I see patients regularly where the two specialties overlap.

No I won't be a GMO. To answer your questions: yes, yes and yes...I will certainly need to know all those things, which we're taught in psychiatry residency and NOT during an OBGYN clerkship/rotation. The topics mentioned above probably didn't even account for 1% of the focus of my former OBGYN experience, while the other 99% (100,000,000 pelvic exams) has absolutely no relevance.

 

[pgg]

It amazes me what can make or break your years of hard work in a second.

I'll second that - here's my personal lesson learned:

I had evals that were exceptionally good for every single rotation I did as an intern. My program director made a point of praising this in my exit interview. He said, almost in passing, that he was disappointed that I didn't score very well in a 2 or 3 hour long standardized clinical test with actors playing patients. (I was marked down on almost every "encounter" for not being empathic enough or seeming to care about the patients. No kidding. They're people being paid to malinger, not sick people.)

I laughed it off, as the entire notion of getting docked points for my failure to pretend to care about someone actor pretending to be sick struck me as ... totally absurd. And funny. So I laughed and shrugged.

Anyway, this whole "standardized patient" testing thing was my program directors personal project, and though he gave no hint of it at the time, he was offended by how I blew off the ridiculous farce. Apparently he brooded over my lack of enthusiasm for his pet project for a while ... because the end of internship eval I actually got was a lot less positive than the draft I read in his office during the exit interview. To this day, I still have no idea how much of his new, negative opinion of me made it into the letter that went to the Navy's GME2+ selection board.

In short, I left my internship exit interview having been told to my face that I'd done an outstanding job all year, only to find out by mail quite some time later that he'd knocked my eval down a notch because of an "attitude that was going to hurt me some day."

So - free advice for anyone who'll listen - no matter how stupid, pointless, irritating, irrelevant, or absurd a task you're given as a student or intern, just put up with it and feign enthusiasm. You never know who might be watching, and you may never know what some observer is doing behind the scenes to hurt your prospects.

To the OP - if you can put up with a year of organic chemistry as an undergrad and do well enough to get into medical school, you can put up with a few weeks of OB/GYN. Honestly, the basic (basic!) stuff you'll learn in an MS3 OB/GYN clerkship is important to being a well rounded doctor, regardless of what specialty you end up choosing.

 

[funkless]

Even Psychiatry? How would a lack of OBGYN knowledge hinder me as a Psychiatrist?

Treating hysteria?


(Kidding. I know what year it is.)

 

[DropkickMurphy]

To the OP - if you can put up with a year of organic chemistry as an undergrad and do well enough to get into medical school.....

I actually like organic chemistry.......I know....I'm weird...