Will we ever have meaningful student loan reform? and what should it be?

[Dred Pirate]

So I preface this by saying I graduated with just over $100,000 in student loans, but at a super low interest rate of 1.8% (early 2000's) and paid them off in about 12 years.
There has been a lot of debate lately, loan payments have been deferred, etc.
It seems like the focus has been on student loan forgiveness, vs fixing the underlying problem. Even if we forgave every student loan out there, we will be right back to the same situation we are in now in 5-10 years, and the debate will rage once again.

I agree the amount of loans people are graduating with now days is just ridulous in some cases. Expecting average 18 year olds to truly understand the scope of what they are taking on, is not reasonable. My parents warned me about what I was doing when I went to pharmacy school and tried to push me to towards a cheaper state school (and I was 22-just graduated undergrad) but I "knew what I was doing". Well, it was because of a girl, but hey, water under the bridge. Luckily for me, the stars aligned and I graduated when salaries were growing and interest rates were low. But obviously many are not that lucky.

Here are some idea that I think we should acutally focus on to solve the underlying program. All have their pro's and con's.

1. We need to limit the rate of increase of college expenses. They have been rising faster than the inflation/salaries, much of this has to do with a sort of arms race. Making fancy apartment living instead of the traditional dorms. College should be forced to limit the percentage of their revenue (outside of donations) that is spent on infrastructure. This will curtail some of this. Also, tuition and fee increases need to be limited (based on inflation or some other metric). If a school violates this, they lose their non-profit status and their students are ineligible for federal loans.

2. Interest rate on student loans are capped at inflation rate +cost of administering the loan. Companies shouldn't be getting rich on student loans.

3. Need to focus more on getting people that shouldn't' go to college, to go towards a more appropriate path. How- I don't know. Maybe make community college/trade programs free? I big negative to this would be it would really decimate many of the small private college (like the one I went to undergrad at).

4. Write some language that if a college doesn't have a certain job placement rate (in the field of study) they are penalized/lose some funding? This would force college to get away from just doing what they can to cash a check, to putting resources to help students choose appropriate fields and be honest with them on job prospects. I think this would affect our profession significantly as it would put pressure on the pill mills.

That being said, call me pessimistic - but I really don't see any meaningful student loan reform anytime soon.

OK - done with my Thursday AM rant...

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[gwarm01]

I can't see meaningful reform happening anytime soon because too many of us are intellectually poisoned with the idea of American exceptionalism, and therefore any change to our way of doing thing is off the table.

People would cry communism, but I would support a system where university is just like K-12. Maybe charge a registration fee or something like that if you have to, and set certain academic standards so we don't enroll people into programs they can't complete, but for the most part it should be free or extremely lost cost to students. If that means our institutions of higher learning can't build a new stadium for their football games then so be it.

If we forgive current loans but don't effectively change the system, then what you said will absolutely happen. Another generation will get straddled with even higher loans and we'll be right back to square one.

 

[NITRAS]

Get government out of higher eduction. Realize we are in the digital age were information is widely available. Focus on the real goal of education is to give people skills and knowledge to do jobs and services. Find a way assess skills rather than degrees.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

It's a very tricky situation. While I strongly support some form of student loan forgiveness/deferral, it still doesn't curtail the easy lending that caused this problem in the first place. I feel the universities themselves should have some sort of skin in the game with their alumni's ability to pay back their loans. For many years, these institutions were able to access billions of dollars of easy loan money while passing 100% of the risk onto the students (borrowers).

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I'm not sure exactly where this fits in to the discussion but I do wish more focus was drawn to administrative budgets and how quickly they're outpacing educators.

I think declining state funding of higher education is worth discussing too.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I can't see meaningful reform happening anytime soon because too many of us are intellectually poisoned with the idea of American exceptionalism, and therefore any change to our way of doing thing is off the table.

People would cry communism, but I would support a system where university is just like K-12. Maybe charge a registration fee or something like that if you have to, and set certain academic standards so we don't enroll people into programs they can't complete, but for the most part it should be free or extremely lost cost to students. If that means our institutions of higher learning can't build a new stadium for their football games then so be it.

If we forgive current loans but don't effectively change the system, then what you said will absolutely happen. Another generation will get straddled with even higher loans and we'll be right back to square one.

although I don't disagree with what you said, I think most of us can agree it will never happen for a variety of reasons.
I do think higher education needs to be affordable - different people have different definitions of affordable thou. Luckily (in the terms of this discussion) I was poor but one of the top in my state academically - therefore I received a full ride to a state institution, and my private school (which is now like 35k a year) cost me 3 grand a year which included room, board, tuition, and a study abroad session. I think that qualifies as affordable.

The ultimate goal I think is to make sure there isn't a cost barrier to prevent kids from getting an education, while also making sure they are going into a program that is right for them academically, and has proper opportunities once they graduate.

 

[Sparda29]

Main thing I can see is to expand PSLF parameters to private sector/for-profit workers also.

For the future, the student loans should have 0% interest.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Main thing I can see is to expand PSLF parameters to private sector/for-profit workers also.

For the future, the student loans should have 0% interest.

I would like to see forgiveness targeted at low income/hard to staff locations. Iowa did that for teachers - my brother got some of his loans forgiven - then again he was only making 17k a year as a high school teacher.

I think loans have to have at least some interest to cover the administrative costs, but I would be against zero percent provided minnimum payments are required, appropriate penalties for those that simply don't pay (vs can't pay)

 

[mentos]

They need to stop handing out student loans like candy. Tuition goes up every year like clockwork for no reason because they know kids will take out a mortgage no matter what. If students stop getting loans then schools will stop charging whatever they want.

It's a pain to get a mortgage for a house. They check your income, savings, employment records, credit history. Student loans should have the same qualifications. Don't give out a 200k loan if the profession only pays 60k salary.

When I went to state university, the dorm rooms looked like jail cells and the food tasted like my high school lunch. I visited campus recently and the place was unrecognizable. The dorm is like a 5 star resort and the dining hall looks like a Michelin star restaurant. Kids are not borrowing 6 figures for education, they are borrowing 6 figures to go on a 4 year vacation.

 

[RxPreceptor]

On living expenses for graduate programs...like I just don't understand why colleges make things more expensive. College I went to didn't allow living on campus dorms for graduate students. Auto & Rent are great things to waste money on

Hell, **** "fancy" living...loved life most when grinding it out undergraduate in a teeny tiny cramped dorm room with a roommate always within arm's distance; encouraged me to explore more, study anywhere, more exposure with peers, etc. Would have loved that during grad school

 

[Sparda29]

They need to stop handing out student loans like candy. Tuition goes up every year like clockwork for no reason because they know kids will take out a mortgage no matter what. If students stop getting loans then schools will stop charging whatever they want.

It's a pain to get a mortgage for a house. They check your income, savings, employment records, credit history. Student loans should have the same qualifications. Don't give out a 200k loan if the profession only pays 60k salary.

When I went to state university, the dorm rooms looked like jail cells and the food tasted like my high school lunch. I visited campus recently and the place was unrecognizable. The dorm is like a 5 star resort and the dining hall looks like a Michelin star restaurant. Kids are not borrowing 6 figures for education, they are borrowing 6 figures to go on a 4 year vacation.

I mean, the dorm rooms shouldn't be bedbug infested jail cells/boot camps, but they should be just decent and clean and technologically up to date.

 

[Dred Pirate]

On living expenses for graduate programs...like I just don't understand why colleges make things more expensive. College I went to didn't allow living on campus dorms for graduate students. Auto & Rent are great things to waste money on

Hell, **** "fancy" living...loved life most when grinding it out undergraduate in a teeny tiny cramped dorm room with a roommate always within arm's distance; encouraged me to explore more, study anywhere, more exposure with peers, etc. Would have loved that during grad school

Yes. My freshman dorm was something out of 70’s era Soviet Union. And i ****ing loved it. My fraternity “house” was legit a fallout shelter with a kitchen and giant ass living room where we spent all of our time. I have seen my nephews dorm and it is nicer than any apartment I have ever lived in and probably cost double what my dorm was. Just ridiculous. Hence where my limiting the money that can be spent in infrastructure comment.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

When I went to state university, the dorm rooms looked like jail cells and the food tasted like my high school lunch.

I would argue decent accommodations and food are worthwhile investments. Nothing overly fancy but better than memorably bad.

 

[mentos]

I mean, the dorm rooms shouldn't be bedbug infested jail cells/boot camps, but they should be just decent and clean and technologically up to date.

My dorm was a concrete rectangle shared by two people and it was all I needed. The bathroom was shared by the entire floor. There was one kitchen for the entire 4 story building. If you were lucky, your building had a lounge with a TV.

Now the dorms are like luxury apartments with private bedrooms, private kitchens, private living rooms and two private bathrooms per 5 people.

 

[RxPreceptor]

 

[Sparda29]

My dorm was a concrete rectangle shared by two people and it was all I needed. The bathroom was shared by the entire floor. There was one kitchen for the entire 4 story building. If you were lucky, your building had a lounge with a TV.

Now the dorms are like luxury apartments with private bedrooms, private kitchens, private living rooms and two private bathrooms per 5 people.

Shared bathroom and kitchen? Fk no.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Hmm maybe dorm life is much more bougie than I thought these days. We had 2 shared bathrooms per floor and a kitchenette thing with some electric burners and a sink but no oven or anything.

 

[mentos]

Shared bathroom and kitchen? Fk no.

Yup we had to bring a little plastic caddy thing to carry our soap, shampoo, toothbrush etc. Each semester the floor would switch back and forth between men's bathroom to women's. So each gender would take turns going up or downstairs to use the bathroom. Almost everyone had a meal plan so rarely cooked. It was like this for decades.

 

[Sparda29]

Yup we had to bring a little plastic caddy thing to carry our soap, shampoo, toothbrush etc. Each semester the floor would switch back and forth between men's bathroom to women's. So each gender would take turns going up or downstairs to use the bathroom. Almost everyone had a meal plan so rarely cooked. It was like this for decades.

Please tell me it was at least a single occupancy bathroom where you go inside and lock the door.

Communal bathrooms where there are multiple stalls for showers/toilets/sinks with no privacy should not exist.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Please tell me it was at least a single occupancy bathroom where you go inside and lock the door.

Communal bathrooms where there are multiple stalls for showers/toilets/sinks with no privacy should not exist.

Mine had only communal bathrooms with multiple stalls. Shower stalls had curtains but no doors/locks. No single occupancy bathrooms unless you paid extra for the one room on each floor that had its own bathroom attached.

 

[mentos]

Please tell me it was at least a single occupancy bathroom where you go inside and lock the door.

Communal bathrooms where there are multiple stalls for showers/toilets/sinks with no privacy should not exist.

It was communal bathroom with 4 shower stalls each with their own curtain, no locks. There were 4 or 5 toilets with locks. Sometimes all showers would be taken at once so you'd have to go up 2 flights of stairs or wait until they were done. Sometimes the toilets had vomit all over them.

 

[lord999]

Coming from the academic and academic administration sphere, we got into this problem through a government screwjob, and there will be no meaningful reform, because the situation is such that the faculty and administration don't need the reform and the right people (students) get charged for use of services rather than spread among the general populace.

First off, for pharmacy, rarely were the schools dependent on tuition since the early 1970s. This is actually an odd state of affairs. Most of the elder state schools could run just fine without any undergradautes at all. In the old days, that also applied to PCOP and Albany (Union). State funding subsidized the undergraduates such that schools had to take them, but most of the faculty funded themselves through industry then government.

This state of affairs changed during the Reagan 80s, where most of the state land grants stopped funding the schools even to operate. The Faustian bargain struck between the academic health centers and the state was that we were released from state obligations in exchange for no funding. That eliminated most of the teaching role and is considered widely to be a bother at best from the faculty these days. This is why pharmacy school used to be punitive toward their students.

It also led to the development of academia as a business. The exemplar of this is UPMC, which basically is what US Steel used to be in Pittsburgh but is the most rapacious business in the area.

This seems to be tangential, but most of the major university health professions really don't need state money, and now, we don't want it as we can make more money from people than depend on the political will of the state which is fickle. It actually costs the state a whole lot more for us to directly raise funds through aggressive billing, but it is a state of affairs that does not depend on politics, does not have a victim but the people, and actually charges the right people for the use of the service. Minnesota and Iowa consistently fund their schools, but Wisconsin doesn't depending on the elected government, which is why Wisconsin takes significant steps to insulate themselves from being dependent on state money. Arizona did not fund their schools to any reasonable degree at all until recently when they figured out they kept losing faculty elsewhere, but almost all departments charge students rather than try to raise money otherwise.

The higher student loans are from the fact that your state does not allocate enough to the school, so it figures that it will charge students to a degree that at least keeps marginal cost at zero. Low taxes, low responsibilities. Most of the Big 10 (and I personally know the numbers for Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota) take a loss per PharmD student head which gets costed against the rest of the sponsored proejcts. This is not private information, each state gets this as part of the fiscal reports back.

The other problem is that by chasing money, we've had to develop these huge bureaucracies. Back in my father's day, the ratio of faculty to staff were roughly 1-3. It's now 1-18 or more, because of all the compliance issues and the chasing and administration of sponsored projects (in English, other people's money especially corporate and nonprofits like Robert Wood Johnson).

Under a more egalitarian regime, the choice is either to make the entire populace pay for education or charge the people who actually use it what it costs. We have chosen the latter, so this IS the reform from the idea that we all pay into the system. It's fair, but not nice.


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Personal reminiscence:
My school sucked and lacked amenities. There was no cafeteria, we had to leave to eat or use this pitiful breakroom. There's wasn't even coffee. The lecture halls were fairly basic. Every time I go back to my alma mater, I'm deeply impressed at both how much the amenities make it look like a resort and the price tag attached to them. I feel very fortunate that I traded off the tuition with spartan facilities (because you really don't care) for a situation where you get a resort but pay for it.

And yes, I remember when dorms were dorms (you slept there but didn't generally stay there) while it's certainly not the first class accomodation it is now.

 

[mentos]

Under a more egalitarian regime, the choice is either to make the entire populace pay for education or charge the people who actually use it what it costs. We have chosen the latter, so this IS the reform from the idea that we all pay into the system. It's fair, but not nice.

Everyone wants to go on their 4 year vacation at a luxury resort for free and have the entire populace pay for it. This is the "reform" people are crying for.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Please tell me it was at least a single occupancy bathroom where you go inside and lock the door.

Communal bathrooms where there are multiple stalls for showers/toilets/sinks with no privacy should not exist.

you must be a lot younger than me. We had three showers Lee bathroom. Three cinder block walls and a curtain. In my fraternity house we just kept our shampoo in the ledge above the shower.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

you must be a lot younger than me. We had three showers Lee bathroom. Three cinder block walls and a curtain. In my fraternity house we just kept our shampoo in the ledge above the shower.

I'm not even 40 and we had basically what you described. I didn't think anything of it then or now.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I'm not even 40 and we had basically what you described. I didn't think anything of it then or now.

I was recently back in my old fraternity house and they still have this set up. I remember the president got a private bathroom. That was ****ting in high cotton as my grandpa would say

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I'm not even 40 and we had basically what you described. I didn't think anything of it then or now.

< 30 and had the same. I guess my school was slow to jump on the "resort like" dorm bandwagon.

 

[SCallergydoc]

Main thing I can see is to expand PSLF parameters to private sector/for-profit workers also.

For the future, the student loans should have 0% interest.

With 0% interest, who is going to loan the money and who will pay it back---nobody to both

 

[owlegrad]

My one and only experience with communal bathrooms is from staying in hostels in Europe.

No thank you.

 

[Sparda29]

you must be a lot younger than me. We had three showers Lee bathroom. Three cinder block walls and a curtain. In my fraternity house we just kept our shampoo in the ledge above the shower.

34.

I was also horrified to learn that the military also has communal bathrooms when I was looking into it back in high school.

I can't stand it when I go to a restaurant or to work at the hospital and find that the majority of bathrooms are these stupid multi-stall bathrooms instead of private bathrooms.

If I wanna go waste time in the bathroom for half an hour, I don't want anyone to be able to walk in and see if I'm hiding in there or look over/under the stalls.

 

[D1Bound]

Perhaps the "Reforms" that we need is in fiscal responsibility. Want to go to undergrad/graduate school? Great. Pay cash or take federal loans. You took out loans? Great, cancel your Netflix subscription, stop buying new clothes, stop going to starbucks, drive a cheap car, and PAY YOUR OWN LOANS.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Not everyone has the luxury of leeching, I mean living off....I mean, having parental support

 

[mentos]

Perhaps the "Reforms" that we need is in fiscal responsibility. Want to go to undergrad/graduate school? Great. Pay cash or take federal loans. You took out loans? Great, cancel your Netflix subscription, stop buying new clothes, stop going to starbucks, drive a cheap car, and PAY YOUR OWN LOANS.

But Liz Warren said my loans will be forgiven! Bernie said there would be free college!

 

[Sparda29]

Perhaps the "Reforms" that we need is in fiscal responsibility. Want to go to undergrad/graduate school? Great. Pay cash or take federal loans. You took out loans? Great, cancel your Netflix subscription, stop buying new clothes, stop going to starbucks, drive a cheap car, and PAY YOUR OWN LOANS.

Or we can start paying more taxes and make tuition free for undergrad/grad/professional school.

 

[lord999]

Or we can start paying more taxes and make tuition free for undergrad/grad/professional school.

Ξεκινήστε με τη δική σας οικογένεια.

"Begin with your own family"

I pay more than my fair share of taxes, and on the priorities, I'd rather keep funding welfare to buy off the useless people than spend it on people who are going to do just fine anyway.

 

[D1Bound]

Or we can start paying more taxes and make tuition free for undergrad/grad/professional school.

No thank you. Kindly move to Europe to participate in such a system.

 

[Sparda29]

No thank you. Kindly move to Europe to participate in such a system.

And that's why America is a backwards ass ****hole compared to Europe.

 

[D1Bound]

And that's why America is a backwards ass ****hole compared to Europe.

I could make similar statements about the european model. The US is founded upon rugged individualism. That is our perspective. Take it or leave it.

 

[Sparda29]

I could make similar statements about the european model. The US is founded upon rugged individualism. That is our perspective. Take it or leave it.

No reason why it can't be changed into a collectivist mindset.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Perhaps the "Reforms" that we need is in fiscal responsibility. Want to go to undergrad/graduate school? Great. Pay cash or take federal loans. You took out loans? Great, cancel your Netflix subscription, stop buying new clothes, stop going to starbucks, drive a cheap car, and PAY YOUR OWN LOANS.

I will disagree - I grew up dirt poor, like, we government cheese poor. I was lucky, I was given a good brain and good work ethic, but despite that, I would have never been able to afford college, let alone 8 years of college. I did graduate oweing 120k - but that was less than half the "sticker price" of the colleges. (plus room and board). Last year I paid about 21k in federal income taxes. multiple that by 25 years of working, I think the government made a good investment vs what I would have been making without the degree.

 

[lord999]

I will disagree - I grew up dirt poor, like, we government cheese poor. I was lucky, I was given a good brain and good work ethic, but despite that, I would have never been able to afford college, let alone 8 years of college. I did graduate oweing 120k - but that was less than half the "sticker price" of the colleges. (plus room and board). Last year I paid about 21k in federal income taxes. multiple that by 25 years of working, I think the government made a good investment vs what I would have been making without the degree.

So, I'm going to make a nasty argument that previous governments used.

No, it's still not a 'good' investment. There are plenty of people who have the means to pay and can afford the schooling. Why bother extending loans to a dirt poor Iowan where I don't even have to deal with the administration system of student loans where I can find perfectly willing-to-pay people? This is ACTUALLY the European model despite what everything thinks about egalitarianism.

The reason that Americans assume which is not true about Europeans is that education implies employment. In Europe, it does not matter as much if you are educated (South Korea is in the same boat). It requires you have connections as well as networks to even get an entry job. The class system in even socialist countries is so entrenched that having free education and access to housing doesn't work.

The difference that the Americans have which I believe is a competitive advantage, is that we do not view money as sufficient. You have to want it. This is important as merit, because you can be completely competent at the work, but if you don't give a damn like most of the middle-upper class in Europe, you're still going to do a terrible job. Why the US chose this path from the Serviceman's Readjustment Act and Pell-Claibourne is that we do imply that education equals employment, and we want motivated, better workers. It differentiates us profoundly on productivity and career match from the Europeans.

The problem we have to day is that we are becoming Europeans, where the access to money and lack of consequences for not being employed mean that the motivation to do good work is no longer there. In Europe though, you never grow or advance beyond a basic level. The system is broken not just because of the money, but because the product, decently educated professionals is not there and requires postgraduate education. It was within my career time that a PharmD degree from Iowa or Florida was more than sufficient to gain clinical appointment even when there was no shortage, because the quality of student and the school's extremely vicious reputation for weeding out incompletents was there. That's not the case anymore, and I view it more from a "no consequences" unemployment on the student's part, a "no consequences" deficiency in training from the schools part, and a "no consequences" attrition strategy of employment on the chain's part that allows for the churn. And we're actually a fairly closed system for employment. Where is the market for humanities and art (non-technical photography or aesthetics) these days? Those majors are not doing well as are students who are taking loans far beyond their profession's salary range (JD, MSW, etc.).

In Europe, @Sparda29 is going to get his education, but he's never going to get anything but a basic job due to not being in the network. That's reserved for the networks that he'll never be allowed into. That's an enduring critique that even the Nordic Council has to contend with as they can never seem to overcome that issue. Most really qualified Swedish and Germans who are not part of these networks leave Europe not only for the pay, but for the growth potential. So @Sparda29 is going to get his wish anyway, that education becomes universal and debt relief abounds. The tradeoff is stable employment and nonpolitical employment, which as his maverick tendencies are, will keep him as a baseline practitioner forever (and probably cheated on fair pay as it's NY).

I view the children of my students coming into that entitled and privileged position like the Europeans. They're going to win just by being who they are. It makes me sick given that their parents came from humbler origins and their success actually becomes an intergenerational wealth transfer. But if you think about it, what wouldn't you do for your child to succeed?

So, I'm glad the US government gave people like you a chance, but it would out passably from the financial standpoint if they only let in people who already had an in and can afford to pay. Thankfully, the government does not take that perspective here, but it does in Europe for access.

 

[D1Bound]

I will disagree - I grew up dirt poor, like, we government cheese poor. I was lucky, I was given a good brain and good work ethic, but despite that, I would have never been able to afford college, let alone 8 years of college. I did graduate oweing 120k - but that was less than half the "sticker price" of the colleges. (plus room and board). Last year I paid about 21k in federal income taxes. multiple that by 25 years of working, I think the government made a good investment vs what I would have been making without the degree.

I don't see how you disagree with me. I'm not against federal student loans. I think people should just buckle down and pay off their own loans.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I don't see how you disagree with me. I'm not against federal student loans. I think people should just buckle down and pay off their own loans.

I don't disagree with personal fiscal responsibility- where I disagree is that cutting out some of those expenses alone won't solve the problem. The biggest problem is that costs for college are rising faster than income/inflation, thus making an untenable situation that in the future the only options will be for children of wealthy families, or to be indebted in student loans for the rest of their lives.

I agree it makes no sense to go to an Ivy league school to be a school teacher (your income will never justify the tuition), but the average 18 year old often isn't financially smart enough to make the decision, or they feed into the hype that many people going into pharmacy school have been fed (high income with guaranteed jobs)

 

[D1Bound]

I don't disagree with personal fiscal responsibility- where I disagree is that cutting out some of those expenses alone won't solve the problem. The biggest problem is that costs for college are rising faster than income/inflation, thus making an untenable situation that in the future the only options will be for children of wealthy families, or to be indebted in student loans for the rest of their lives.

I agree it makes no sense to go to an Ivy league school to be a school teacher (your income will never justify the tuition), but the average 18 year old often isn't financially smart enough to make the decision, or they feed into the hype that many people going into pharmacy school have been fed (high income with guaranteed jobs)

I don't know if the government can do anything about people being uninformed. At 18 years old people are consenting adults. Somehow there needs to be an information campaign or something. Doing things like real-estate or computer science are infinitely better options than some college careers. Nursing/PA sound like they need to be encouraged rather than programs like pharmacy or even dentistry with the barrier of entry of undergrad prices and now enormous dental school prices.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I don't know if the government can do anything about people being uninformed. At 18 years old people are consenting adults. Somehow there needs to be an information campaign or something. Doing things like real-estate or computer science are infinitely better options than some college careers. Nursing/PA sound like they need to be encouraged rather than programs like pharmacy or even dentistry with the barrier of entry of undergrad prices and now enormous dental school prices.

one method that sort of deals with the uninformed, would be like they used to do in the eastern bloc (not that I agree with this) - but didn't they have to take a sort of aptitude test, then were told what they will study and what work they will do?

 

[allantois]

TBH loan forgiveness is already an option (PSLF). As long as they keep it I'm ok with things as they are

 

[D1Bound]

TBH loan forgiveness is already an option (PSLF). As long as they keep it I'm ok with things as they are

I've heard people have applied for it and barely anyone has gotten it

 

[confettiflyer]

I don't see how you disagree with me. I'm not against federal student loans. I think people should just buckle down and pay off their own loans.

Legit question - what do you consider “pay off their own loans?”

I’d have to rerun the calculations (it’s been a while), but take a sorta me-ish example:

Borrow $150k @ 7%. Work at non-profit.
Pay back $164k (~$1400/mo x 10 years)
Forgiven under PSLF = $65,120

Assume 10yr T-bill is like 1%

One perspective is that the above said borrower has, in fact, paid off their loan (principal amount and some token amount of interest). Loan interest here is just accounting theater - it’s like me sending you a $1M bill for talking to you, then eventually forgiving it.

Another perspective is that they still owe $65k, despite laws to the contrary.

Is the line drawn at payback of principal? What if the above borrower borrowed $200k and had $165,000 in interest forgiven? $300k and $323,000 forgiven?

 

[workingfarmer]

Main thing I can see is to expand PSLF parameters to private sector/for-profit workers also.

For the future, the student loans should have 0% interest.

I agree there's not interest tagged on when the government uses my tax money over the years and I get my refund or pay more....why will I get taxed on borrowed money from the government? I can see PSLF expanding just like obamacare did with medicare/medicaid expansion