Window of opportunity closing for incoming D.O. students?

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TeamLeafs said:
Accepted Canadian at NSU, Nova told me very few AOA residencies sponsor Visa's and even if you get one that does, do you really want to never ever go back to Canada? Canada's healthcare system is much safer than the US system. You don't want to restrict yourself.

ACGME is a must.

Also, if you did somehow do an AOA residency, if you're on a J1, you have to go back to Canada for 2 years. What would you plan on doing for 2 years without recognized training, sitting on 350k Debt? Good luck getting an H1B visa with an AOA residency!
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There are always ways around the 2 years thing
Secondly, all depends what you want to do. No harm taking the USMLE or the MCCEE
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Fedxup said:
I would be happy if only 5000 spots were added...
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I wouldn't be.

Despite that the number of residency positions were held constant between 1996-2002, new positions were added every single year for the last decade. The number of MD pgy1 position grew ~30% between 2003 and 2013, three times the growth of the general population of the US.

All in all, since 1971 the number of pgy1 positions have increased by 62% while the growth of the general population was only 52%. Therefore, the number of trained physicians outpaced that of the population growth by 10%. This may not seem like a lot, but if you factor in the increasing number of allied healthcare graduates, then you realize that we DON'T need more physicians.

sources:

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/nrmp-historical-reports/
http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table
 
guylewis said:
there is actually a shortage of doctors that will be drastically exacerbated over the coming years due to three factors: first, the increased number of senior citizens from the baby boom generation that will be needing doctors. second, an increase in the number of potential patients due to everyone having health insurance. third, a large loss of doctors due to the baby boomer doctors retiring.
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There isn't an overall shortage, it is just disparity. Fewer people want to go into primary care, especially geriatrics. Geriatrics is what we will be needing more. There are around 7500 practicing when nearly 18,000 are needed; it will get worse. A google search will give a ton of articles about this. Not many people are interested in caring for poor outcome patients on 20 different medications for low pay.

The profession needs more incentives to go into primary care! Between the doc fix and insurance, it isn't looking good.
 
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ChineseKid said:
There are always ways around the 2 years thing
Secondly, all depends what you want to do. No harm taking the USMLE or the MCCEE
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Yes, you can do a ROS in a rural/underserved area for 2 years, but even that is not fully gauranteed.

And of course there is no harm in writing the MCCEEs too, you HAVE to do it for a Canadian residency, what's your point? For CARMS, anything other than FM(even that is a stretch without LORs), you are NOT going to match without LORS from Canadian PDs which you wont get without electives.

I'm just making it fully clear, so all the "there's a way" "depends on what you want" bs stops.

Again, as long as you do an US ACGME residency you are fine as a Canadian. If you go into specialties, there's a few extra things you have to do such as fellowships to make sure the years of training match, which is fine - but if you go FM you should be more than fine to come back to Canada and practice easily.
 
TeamLeafs said:
Yes, you can do a ROS in a rural/underserved area for 2 years, but even that is not fully gauranteed.

And of course there is no harm in writing the MCCEEs too, you HAVE to do it for a Canadian residency, what's your point? For CARMS, anything other than FM(even that is a stretch without LORs), you are NOT going to match without LORS from Canadian PDs which you wont get without electives.

I'm just making it fully clear, so all the "there's a way" "depends on what you want" bs stops.

Again, as long as you do an US ACGME residency you are fine as a Canadian. If you go into specialties, there's a few extra things you have to do such as fellowships to make sure the years of training match, which is fine - but if you go FM you should be more than fine to come back to Canada and practice easily.
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Whatever swings your boat.
Just note that what you want or desire isn't necessarily what everyone else want.

I was just stating another POV.
What I said isn't bs.

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ChineseKid said:
Whatever swings your boat.
Just note that what you want or desire isn't necessarily what everyone else want.

I was just stating another POV.
What I said isn't bs.

Sent from my SGH-T889V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It is : "Whatever floats your boat".

What does what I want or desire, have to do with facts? I was stating that w.r.t to AOA residencies as a Canadian citizen, there is a chance you can do it, but you would be on a J1, and then would have to find a way to get out of the 2 year return to Canada, where that training is not recognized. I am just providing facts. You were just providing blind reassurance. I bet RDK wanted to know some FACTS in making his educational decisions.

RDK who asked the question, should have no problem getting a US ACGME residency, but if they want to go for a Canadian residency they should do everything they can to make sure they can actually get LORS and do electives. So AOA would never even be a needed option, unless of course they tank medical school and need a fail safe to get a residency, which probably isn't the case if they are already proactive looking for information on SDN for their future.
 
TeamLeafs said:
It is : "Whatever floats your boat".

What does what I want or desire, have to do with facts? I was stating that w.r.t to AOA residencies as a Canadian citizen, there is a chance you can do it, but you would be on a J1, and then would have to find a way to get out of the 2 year return to Canada, where that training is not recognized. I am just providing facts. You were just providing blind reassurance. I bet RDK wanted to know some FACTS in making his educational decisions.

RDK who asked the question, should have no problem getting a US ACGME residency, but if they want to go for a Canadian residency they should do everything they can to make sure they can actually get LORS and do electives. So AOA would never even be a needed option, unless of course they tank medical school and need a fail safe to get a residency, which probably isn't the case if they are already proactive looking for information on SDN for their future.
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Mmmmk.

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EMDO2018 said:
I didn't actually watch the video until now, so the DOs participating in the ACGME match will go from 2600 to 6000 by 2016 ? Will no one match AOA in 2016 and every single DO goes into the ACGME match? These videos are notorious for leaving out info to make it look as if doomsday is coming.
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I believe that the video is leaving out the AOA --> ACGME conversion that's supposed to take place in 2015. Since about 40% of graduating DOs pursue ACGME residencies, the double + a few hundred increase by 2016 will also account for increased class sizes and newly opened schools.

The video is misleading in that way.

If I remember right, a lot of IMG's will have a hard time entering the USA residency system once this AOA --> ACGME conversion happens, and the number quoted from another post, above, saying that there will be 26,000 graduating US MDs and DOs seems to fill the 27,000 residency spots they're projected to have. I'm not sure if they'll block out all IMGs, but what do I know.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

"On October 24, 2012, the ACGME, the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) announced an agreement to pursue a single, unified accreditation system for graduate medical education programs in the United States beginning in July 2015. Plans call for the ACGME to accredit all osteopathic graduate medical education programs currently accredited by AOA. AOA and AACOM would then become organizational members of ACGME."
 
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MDforMee said:
I believe that the video is leaving out the AOA --> ACGME conversion that's supposed to take place in 2015. Since about 40% of graduating DOs pursue ACGME residencies, the double + a few hundred increase by 2016 will also account for increased class sizes and newly opened schools.

The video is misleading in that way.

If I remember right, a lot of IMG's will have a hard time entering the USA residency system once this AOA --> ACGME conversion happens, and the number quoted from another post, above, saying that there will be 26,000 graduating US MDs and DOs seems to fill the 27,000 residency spots they're projected to have. I'm not sure if they'll block out all IMGs, but what do I know.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

"On October 24, 2012, the ACGME, the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) announced an agreement to pursue a single, unified accreditation system for graduate medical education programs in the United States beginning in July 2015. Plans call for the ACGME to accredit all osteopathic graduate medical education programs currently accredited by AOA. AOA and AACOM would then become organizational members of ACGME."
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That merger isn't on the table anymore unfortunately
 
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The AOA and ACGME will never merge unless the ACGME forces them do to so. This could happen soon, and the AOA will have to give up a ton of power when this happens and this may not bode well for 100% of the issues those of us currently in AOA training are experiencing. The speculations on exactly what would happen then are just that and basing them on the ill thought out actions of the Osteopathic leadership in the past and present may be your best route in this case, if any.

Coming from Canada for med school in the US, then expecting to breeze through either sides' red-tape to do a fellowship and/or practice in either country is unrealistic.

Killing the USMLE and not going to Osteopathic training will cut out a lot of headaches from the start, so this should be the goal of anyone from Canada coming to the US for medical training.

Some posters are going from thread to thread posting their mathematical derivations of what a person just entering any medical training anywhere is bound to experience and do not account for any of the social/legal/misc. pressures that they will encounter along the way as a result of their choices. Please take those posts for what they are and nothing more.

On a related note, please stop bragging about LaBatt; that stuff is terrible!
 
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How could the merger possibly ever come into affect unless OMM was completely eliminated?
 
csx said:
How could the merger possibly ever come into affect unless OMM was completely eliminated?
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I would love to see this heavy a hand dealt by the AMA/ACGME, but they will probably be more subtle about it. They've already said that some ACGME fellowship spots may be filled by "highly qualified applicants" from the DO side, but not what exactly that means. They could say that any extra time that is spent on OMT took away from time that could have been put towards "more important things" such as research, volunteering, etc. and cut out the OMT fanatics that way.
My logs show how much OMT was done in each residency rotation, and a perceived overuse in rotations such as surgery, etc. may also have been thought to take away from my "true" clinical duties. Lame, I know, but they've left themselves a pretty wide area to make stuff up in to exclude people they don't want and this wouldn't even come up if a doctor didn't sue them for why they were not offered the spot. The ACGME has already won, but with a subtle class about them rather than the oafish manner that the AOA/COCA/NBOME operate in. I predict that well over 70% of DO students will take the USMLE through Step2 soon if they already aren't. Then get your AOA dues paid for, but don't go to anything they sponsor. Go to your state-sponsored stuff and get noticed there for future positions if you intend to climb the ranks in academics/medical politics, which is where the real money is. Not a person high up in those groups that isn't making well over 400k per year with minimal patient care duties.
 
user3 said:
http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Porta...s/2012-2013_ACGME_DATABOOK_DOCUMENT_Final.pdf (page 2)

26,974 total ACGME pipeline positions for 2012- includes military, SF Match, etc. does NOT include 1 yr only positions.

https://natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012prgstats.html

2,069 non 1-yr AOA positions for 2012 (2,292 for 2013)

total ACGME + AOA pipeline positions for 2012- 29,043
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Nice, I had been looking for something like this for a while. So we've got a minimum of 29,266 positions (there are probably some new ACGME positions, but, until they release a new ACGME report, I can't speculate) for what will amount to around 25,000-26,000 graduates in 2018 after attrition. Not bad. Not good, but not bad. And if we even have 1% year-over-year GME growth there should be 30,454 positions in 2018, roughly. I'm really hoping the AOA can open another 200+ positions per year for the next four years, as that would make things a lot easier, but I really won't hold my breath.
 
There's also 5000 US-FMG and and 7500 IMGs. Neither of these groups will be totally shut out. There are many impressive IMG applicants.
 
cliquesh said:
There's also 5000 US-FMG and and 7500 IMGs. Neither of these groups will be totally shut out. There are many impressive IMG applicants.
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Will be interesting to see each group's match rates in coming years. Last year, US MD match rate dropped from 95.1 to 93.7. If all IMG and FMG were banned from the match hypothetically, this would bring many opportunities for DO's.

For example, there actually are enough anesthesiogy spots (1,650) for all US MD (~1,200) and DO (~250?) students that apply for it. Same with radiology. However, due to so many IMG and FMG applicants, a few MD and many DO applicants fail to match in it.
 
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user3 said:
Will be interesting to see each group's match rates in coming years. Last year, US MD match rate dropped from 95.1 to 93.7. If all IMG and FMG were banned from the match hypothetically, this would bring many opportunities for DO's.

For example, there actually are enough anesthesiogy spots (1,650) for all US MD (~1,200) and DO (< 200) students that apply for it. Same with radiology. However, due to so many IMG and FMG applicants, a few MD and many DO applicants fail to match in it.
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There was a lawsuit years ago that forced the US to open practice to foreign grads. Getting rid of foreign grads will never happen.

Realistically, in 2018 there will be around 4k DOs in the match, likely the strongest DO candidates as the weaker ones will just go AOA rather than risk not matching. My bet is most of those grads will match. Just don't be a marginal applicant and apply broadly and you should be fine. The COCA standards thankfully require a 98% post graduation placement rate to maintain accredation, so hopefully if match rates start dropping they start closing schools.
 
Mad Jack said:
There was a lawsuit years ago that forced the US to open practice to foreign grads. Getting rid of foreign grads will never happen.

Realistically, in 2018 there will be around 4k DOs in the match, likely the strongest DO candidates as the weaker ones will just go AOA rather than risk not matching. My bet is most of those grads will match. Just don't be a marginal applicant and apply broadly and you should be fine. The COCA standards thankfully require a 98% post graduation placement rate to maintain accredation, so hopefully if match rates start dropping they start closing schools.
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Residency programs have the right to not interview FMG's, just as DO's (as many do)
 
user3 said:
Residency programs have the right to not interview FMG's, just as DO's (as many do)
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They do have the right not to, absolutely. But the ACGME can't pass a resolution preventing them from being interviewed. I do not believe that NRMP program directors would take marginal DO candidates over exceptional FMGs.
 
cliquesh said:
There's also 5000 US-FMG and and 7500 IMGs. Neither of these groups will be totally shut out. There are many impressive IMG applicants.
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Their match rates will probably decline though. Last year just under 7,000 foreign grads matched. There will still be enough pipeline positions for around 5,000 to match if every US grad gets a spot. That is more than enough room for competitive foreign grads. It's the ones that are barely making it in by today's standards that will suffer.
 
EMDO2018 said:
One thing that is sorta startling to me, why does the AOA have only 2000 spots but admits 6,000 students and steady adding more schools? Second, this topic is posted here every couple of days. US DOs will most likely be okay in the match but you can't predict the future. What needs to happen, is the creating of more high quality residency spots by the AOA, and less discrimination by ACGME against DOs. If there really is a "physician shortage" there has to be somebody to let the idiots in congress know that you can't have more doctors without more GME slots.
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Why? Because there's no money in opening residency programs, but any entrepreneur can get enough investors to provide the startup capital for a school that is going collect tuition of (50k/year) X (200 students/class) X (4 classes of students)= $ 40 million annual revenue*... all under the facade of "improving the future access to primary care."

*disclaimer: I'm not an accountant and I'm sitting here still half drunk from New Years so maybe these numbers are bogus.

Unfortunately DO schools pack all that revenue into flashy facilities that attract next year's applicants, and use some leftover scraps to loosely affiliate with community hospitals and call it an OPTI
 
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