With all the changes looming, how does future of GI look?

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DreamingTheLive

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Hi GI veterans,

Hoping to get some perspective concerning future of GI with all this talk about healthcare reform/socialized medicine, etc. looming. At this young juncture in my career, I'm pretty confident I'm in love with GI. Love the physiology, pathophysiology of the GI tract and really enjoy working up a ddx. Last week, I had a Primary Care program director tell me how bright the future of medicine (espec. primary care) looked in terms of practice and compensation. Yet, at a recent exit-interview for a clerkship, one of my attendings remarked that it doesn't matter what you go into because all docs will be soon be making 80K and working 40 hour weeks???:eek::eek:

I'm not in it for the money, trying to do what I love (lol, never work a day in my life), but the thought of leaving med school 250K in debt, doing residency+fellowship for 6 years, and then trying to pay down that debt and live a comfortable life seem a bit depressing. I don't have access to a lot of Docs in GI quite yet so I'm really interested to hear some of your opinions.

Thanks in advance, it's really appreciated. Just trying to get more data points as I try to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.

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Hi GI veterans,

Hoping to get some perspective concerning future of GI with all this talk about healthcare reform/socialized medicine, etc. looming. At this young juncture in my career, I'm pretty confident I'm in love with GI. Love the physiology, pathophysiology of the GI tract and really enjoy working up a ddx. Last week, I had a Primary Care program director tell me how bright the future of medicine (espec. primary care) looked in terms of practice and compensation. Yet, at a recent exit-interview for a clerkship, one of my attendings remarked that it doesn't matter what you go into because all docs will be soon be making 80K and working 40 hour weeks???:eek::eek:

I'm not in it for the money, trying to do what I love (lol, never work a day in my life), but the thought of leaving med school 250K in debt, doing residency+fellowship for 6 years, and then trying to pay down that debt and live a comfortable life seem a bit depressing. I don't have access to a lot of Docs in GI quite yet so I'm really interested to hear some of your opinions.

Thanks in advance, it's really appreciated. Just trying to get more data points as I try to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.
Things might improve a little bit for primary care physicians, but that's only because primary care reimbursments are completely in the dumpster in comparison to those of specialists. GI is more or less a one trick pony in terms of compensation. You cut reimbursement rates for scoping and there goes all the draw from the field, because they won't be making much more than their hospitalist colleagues. I don't know bout 80k a year for physicians, but don't expect to make the 400-500k GIs are pulling now.
 
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Most GI's don't make 400-500 K. You either have to work too much ( >80 hours) or live in an underserved or less desirable area.

With that being said, I think despite the changes in healthcare reimbursement, gastroenterologists will do fine. Despite that, it sounds like you like GI and would be generally happy. Don't read into what people say too much and follow your heart. I would rather do a job and be happy, then make a lot of money and be miserable. It is all relative.

Thanks for the reply and the advice! :) GI is kind of a smallish-group so it's kinda tough finding reputable info.
 
Most GI's don't make 400-500 K. You either have to work too much ( >80 hours) or live in an underserved or less desirable area.

With that being said, I think despite the changes in healthcare reimbursement, gastroenterologists will do fine. Despite that, it sounds like you like GI and would be generally happy. Don't read into what people say too much and follow your heart. I would rather do a job and be happy, then make a lot of money and be miserable. It is all relative.

Every GI I know makes in the $400s, and they aren't in the boonies. A few that work a lot are in the $500s. I would have thought they were in the higher end of the spectrum, but looking at the physician comp reports out there, it seems that's more along the median.
GI and most other IM subspecialties will always "do fine." It simply depends on what your definition of "fine" is. You'll have a job, and you'll be paid much higher than the general public, but expect some sharp drops in compensation.

But, overall, I agree that you have to go with what you enjoy. Even if you want to make money, the economic and political uncertainty right now makes it pointless to pick based on future financial rewards.
 
What have you guys seen for hepatologist salaries, both academic (ie. transplant) and private? How about hepatologists who continue to perform endoscopic procedures? I would think that hepatologists in general make less than general GIs or therapeutic endoscopists. On the other hand, hepatologists will likely be less affected by future healthcare changes, as their practices are more clinic-based.

As someone who is currently in fellowship and interested in hepatology, the notion of a drop in income after an additional year of training bums me out somewhat. Still, I have not seen actual ballpark figures for hepatologists.

As for general GI, I agree that the median private salaries are around high 200s to low 300s, though anecdotally a new graduate from my program last year got a private position in Texas for closer to 400k. These positions do exist, but are not the norm.
 
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Starting pay in most major cities (boston,dc,chi,dallas,houston,miami for sure) is $225k-250k...275k if your really lucky...and most GIs in this setting are pulling in 400-500k 5 years after graduation. There are always rumors of some in all the above cities pulling in $1mil+, but those guys have a big referral practice and are long established....no i cant show you tax returns but i feel the data is from good personal sources in GI in these towns.

2 hours out of any major city the starting pay from recruitrers I've talked to is always 400k+...I've seen 500k and 75k signing 30 mins south of Morgantown, wv and 600k in Hayes Kansas, $490k in Brownsville,Tx, $600k in marsh clinic in wisc in the last 6 months just to mention 4 of probably a 100 similar posts. 5 years out the guys in small towns are pulling on millions....no competition and low overhead! Only GI serving 20 internists are sometimes backed up 6-7 months in clinic!

If a GI is making 300k in a large city...theyre probably taking 4 weeks off a year, call is one weekend in 2 months and they are probably avoiding the hospital and depending on internist to keep them some what busy as outpatients....and there probably backed up just a few weeks in clinic.

Gotta work harder in bigger cities since there's lower reimbursement, higher overhead and more competition just to name a few factors that lower the overall income.....

But....don't chase money...chase ur dream and do what u enjoy....overtime taxes will rise and pay will drop especially in medicine!
 
This sounds about right. After a few years of practice a lot of GI's are making 400-500+. Check out Physician MGMA. 200-300 is starting incomes only.

Starting pay in most major cities (boston,dc,chi,dallas,houston,miami for sure) is $225k-250k...275k if your really lucky...and most GIs in this setting are pulling in 400-500k 5 years after graduation. There are always rumors of some in all the above cities pulling in $1mil+, but those guys have a big referral practice and are long established....no i cant show you tax returns but i feel the data is from good personal sources in GI in these towns.

2 hours out of any major city the starting pay from recruitrers I've talked to is always 400k+...I've seen 500k and 75k signing 30 mins south of Morgantown, wv and 600k in Hayes Kansas, $490k in Brownsville,Tx, $600k in marsh clinic in wisc in the last 6 months just to mention 4 of probably a 100 similar posts. 5 years out the guys in small towns are pulling on millions....no competition and low overhead! Only GI serving 20 internists are sometimes backed up 6-7 months in clinic!

If a GI is making 300k in a large city...theyre probably taking 4 weeks off a year, call is one weekend in 2 months and they are probably avoiding the hospital and depending on internist to keep them some what busy as outpatients....and there probably backed up just a few weeks in clinic.

Gotta work harder in bigger cities since there's lower reimbursement, higher overhead and more competition just to name a few factors that lower the overall income.....

But....don't chase money...chase ur dream and do what u enjoy....overtime taxes will rise and pay will drop especially in medicine!
 
Definitely, do not agree. Show me proof.

It appears the median salary is around high 200's and low 300's. Don't expect the median GI salary to drop by 100K. My expectation will be more of a ceiling and less of the super high salaries. Anyway, we are all speculating and will not know what will happen until all of this is implemented.


Proof found here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=817247
 
Look at that standard deviation ( $236,000). I find it hard to believe and not consistent with the offers or feelers I have received as a 2nd year fellow. To that point, very skeptical when young, naive medical students feel like they are experts in physician compensation.


Who was claiming to be an expert? I'm actually pretty skeptical when a fellow (n=1) says they don't believe the findings of a large professional survey because it's not consistent with offers they are getting.
 
Who was claiming to be an expert? I'm actually pretty skeptical when a fellow (n=1) says they don't believe the findings of a large professional survey because it's not consistent with offers they are getting.

Exactly. WIth that huge SD, you know that GI is flexible in terms of lifestyle. You can pull 500K but you will work a lot more hours than somebody making 250k. Most GI's I know are busy and make 400+.
 
I would say that I have more experience to comment on the subject than you. To that end, I am surprised by those surveys, but not disputing that you can make money in GI. Also, do you realize that these are just surveys and not representative of what I have seen /experienced nor other fellows from my program.


Hate to break it to you, but citing "what you and other fellows in your program have seen" is a survey. It just has considerably less power and validity than the professional survey we are citing. Also, once again you are suggesting that we are claiming experience or expertise because of "one outpatient rotation." This has not happened and posting it again still doesn't make it true.
 
WSU, fellows,

Thanks for your posts, I appreciate anything you have to offer as I'm on the outside of GI looking in...I've been reading that there is some unrest within the GI community pertaining to the future of GI procedures, etc. as Endoscopy is (kinda) fading from favor in some regards and GI is sometimes viewed as a "one trick pony" built largely on Endo...hence, I was wondering how GI is adapting in terms of technological advances with their scoping procedures/other procedures, etc.??? anything revolutionary coming down the pipeline??

Thanks in advance.
 
I understand that in essence my experience and other fellows in my program is essentially a survey. Despite this and the aforementioned data from MGMA, I still have a hard time swallowing those statistics. What I would like is for other fellows /practicing gastroenterologists to comment rather than having a debate with medical students on the validity of this survey.

This is obviously how medicine should be practiced. Screw uptodate, pubmed, or whatever other nationally accepted source says. The way you practice should be based purely on how hard a time you have swallowing a certain statistic, and what a limited number of unverified personalities on an internet forum states about a certain issue.
 
Yeah, that's exactly what I said, you expert, you.

I cited anecdotes and referred to survey data. If that means expertise in your book, then ok. And yes, that's exactly what you said.
 
What do people think about virtual colonoscopy? I don't think it's a question of if but when will CMS begin to reimburse for it. How will impact GI? Will more screening c-scopes be done virtually than traditional some day in the future?
 
What do people think about virtual colonoscopy? I don't think it's a question of if but when will CMS begin to reimburse for it. How will impact GI? Will more screening c-scopes be done virtually than traditional some day in the future?

Not an expert on this, but I doubt virtual colonoscopies (VC) will become a staple. Direct visualization is almost always better than imaging. Also, what happens if you find anything? COLONOSCOPY. VCs also can't detect an abnormality less than 5mm I believe. So that means you would still need a colonsocopy. Most insurances don't cover VCs because of this reason.

Maybe VCs can start in a 50y/o w/out history of colonic issues, and then repeat every 3-5 years.
 
Emerging Trends in Gastroenterology Reimbursement
Lower Payments, Larger Health Care Organizations Likely To Come
By Gabriel Miller

Chicago—As the effects of the Affordable Care Act begin to take shape, it’s clear that physicians will experience a different future regarding reimbursement. In particular, gastroenterologists can expect shared savings programs, bundled payments and re-valued gastrointestinal (GI) procedural codes to directly impact their pay in the years to come, according to economic and policy experts.

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) are responsible for implementing the new rules and programs. For example, in April, CMS proposed to create accountable care organizations (ACOs), which are groups of coordinated health care providers that agree to be accountable for the overall cost and care of a Medicare patient population and that are willing to tie their reimbursement to quality improvements that reduce overall costs.

Likewise in May, CMS announced its final rule on implementing the Hospital Inpatient Value-Based Purchasing program, which will use a “mix of standards, process, outcomes, and patient experience measures” to score hospitals “on their overall achievement relative to national or other appropriate benchmarks.” The agency said it “will make value-based incentive payments to acute care hospitals, based either on how well the hospitals perform on certain quality measures” or on how much the hospitals’ performance improves after a baseline period. Eventually, the program will likely extend to the level of the individual physician. The HHS stated that the scoring program may be used by “consumers … to make meaningful distinctions among providers’ performance.”

Health Care Market Realignment

By tying reimbursement to quality metrics, the new programs will create newer, larger health care entities and a shift from fee-for-service to flat payments to physicians.

“The Affordable Care Act is trying to bring back risk for what we do and for whom we are accountable to,” said Lawrence Kosinski, MD, MBA, a managing partner of the Illinois Gastroenterology Group, in Elgin, and chair of the American Gastroenterological Association Institute’s Practice Management and Economics Committee.

One response to these developing changes has been to pool the new risk. “From a macro point of view, the provider side is aggregating. You see hospitals aggregating, you see physician groups aggregating, and you see hospital and physician groups [integrating]. Why are they doing this? To get large enough to handle the risk of a population of people,” said Dr. Kosinski.

These seismic shifts are integrating physician groups on a smaller scale, and health care organizations and ACOs on a larger scale. Dr. Kosinski recently merged his practice with two other Chicago-area gastroenterology practices, and now has added a fourth to compete on a regional level and control costs.

On the grander scale, hospital systems are purchasing physician practices.

“Gastroenterology is becoming an employed specialty,” said Joel Brill, MD, the chief medical officer of Predictive Health, in Phoenix, and former chair of the AGA’s Practice Management and Economics Committee. “With one in five gastroenterologists already in employed settings, the number will continue to grow.”

Dr. Kosinski added, “Physicians will not be on fee-for-service; rather, they will have fixed incomes with performance bonuses based on balanced scorecards.”

A recent survey by the Medical Group Management Association shows a nearly 75% increase in the number of physicians employed by hospitals since 2000. Hospital-owned physician practices now outnumber those owned by physicians themselves.

In May, Robert Kocher, MD, former special assistant to President Obama for health care, laid out the reason in an editorial in The New England Journal of Medicine. In addition to primary care physicians, hospitals are now aggressively targeting specialists in order to create “what could effectively become closed, integrated health care delivery systems.” These larger systems not only control pricing power—a Virginia hospital system reportedly charged four to 10 times as much for a colonoscopy as providers in similar, separate markets—but they can also “reduce excess costs associated with unnecessary practice variation.”

Or as Dr. Brill puts it: “He who writes your check will decide what you do.” The big question in this scenario is not whether screening colonoscopy is reimbursed at $1,200 or $2,500, but whether the procedure needs to be done at all, he said. If hospitals employ both primary care and specialist physicians, hospitals effectively control primary care referral patterns for all GI services, which could impact gastroenterologists regardless of whether they spend their time performing office consultations or procedures.

Bundled Payments

In addition to encouraging salaried employment from hospitals and promoting joint ventures between a gastroenterologist and a local hospital, the health reform act will alter GI physicians’ reimbursement by establishing a bundled payment program through Medicare. The program will set a flat fee for “an episode of care,” only for those events requiring hospitalization.

Because screening colonoscopy, for example, is primarily a diagnostic procedure, the bundled payment system will likely not be as complicated for gastroenterologists as it could be for physicians managing chronic conditions in a fixed-fee system. However, physicians with ambulatory surgery centers will have to scrutinize their practice to see where they can increase savings.

“A lot of what gastroenterologists do today are services that are diagnostic and therapeutic as opposed to [those that manage] chronic conditions,” said Dr. Brill. “Where bundled payments could possibly impact us is that if you perform a colonoscopy and have a complication, such as a bleed or the patient has to be brought back because of a poor prep, this could affect what you and the facility get paid for the second procedure. Then you’ve got to figure out how you’re going to spend your money.”

“Right now, if we do a screening colonoscopy and find a polyp, there is no control over when the patient returns for a surveillance colonoscopy,” said Dr. Kosinski. “We may bring them back in three years even if it is not appropriate according to guidelines. What’s coming and what I’ve seen is that the payers are going to give physicians something like a gift card—you’ve got $1,500 for your screening colonoscopy—and the GIs are going to say, ‘Maybe I can use conscious sedation, maybe I don’t want that anesthesia expense,’ and hold on to as much of that dollar as they can. When we get down to the nitty gritty, you will have screening and surveillance done at a fixed cost for the package of the procedure.”

Procedure Reimbursement

By far the most significant effect of health care reform will be on procedure reimbursement, both facility and professional fees. Four years ago, CMS began to phase in a new ASC fee schedule as the result of a Congressional mandate that the schedules should align with payments to hospital outpatient departments. However, the mandate stipulated that the changes in spending across ASCs remain budget-neutral, with the result that ASC fees for GI services fell approximately 25%, said Glenn Littenberg, MD, the managing partner of Gastroenterology Associates, in Pasadena, Calif., and chair of the American Society for Gastrointestinal Endoscopy’s (ASGE) Practice Management Committee.

“One of the big issues is the trend in [ASC] reimbursement for GI endoscopy, which is really a continuation of the trend that began a few years ago,” said Dr. Littenberg, who is also currently the ASGE’s adviser to the American Medical Association (AMA) Current Procedural Terminology editorial panel. “Reimbursement for the facility side from Medicare for screening colonoscopy has now fallen to about or below the level at which the services can be provided. While CMS wants to have effective care delivered in quality facilities and to improve rates of screening for colorectal cancer, its payment policy undermines this [goal].”

The effect on professional fees reflects a change in how CMS is dealing with the recommendations of the AMA’s Relative Value Scale Update Committee (RUC), which makes annual recommendations to CMS on reimbursement rates for physician services. Every five years, the RUC also performs a broader review of the entire Resource-Based Relative Value Scale. Until this year, CMS accepted the vast majority of the RUC’s recommendations and largely left the RUC to determine which physician services to re-value. However, the Affordable Care Act specifically calls for the CMS to have greater scrutiny over reimbursement rates.

“The key thing is Section 3134, which requires the secretary [of HHS] to review and identify potentially misvalued codes,” said Dr. Brill, who is the AGA’s RUC adviser. “For years, CMS pretty much accepted what the RUC recommended—but that’s no more.”

For example, in the 2011 Physician Fee Schedule Proposed Rule, CMS specifically pointed to several GI codes that it believes are misvalued and need to be surveyed for 2011, including upper GI endoscopy diagnosis and biopsy, colonoscopy and biopsy, and colonoscopy and polypectomy.

“Medicare has challenged the GI societies to defend their reimbursement for our bread-and-butter procedures,” Dr. Brill said.

Clearly, CMS wants to be much more aggressive in how they evaluate the physician workload behind a service, said Dr. Littenberg. “We are going to be challenged to defend the values that we believe are pertinent to our services. The outcome may well be that reimbursement for services will fall, because it’s almost impossible to increase the value within a budget-neutral system that is not keeping up with inflation.”

In the future, the Affordable Care Act also calls for the creation of the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), an executive-branch agency charged specifically with reducing the Medicare growth rate. Importantly, HHS must implement the board’s proposals unless Congress adopts equally effective alternatives; the only way to avoid this would be if both houses of Congress, including a three-fifths super majority in the Senate, vote to waive the requirement. Importantly, however, the IPAB is strictly limited in what it can do to slow Medicare costs: The board cannot ration health care, raise revenues or increase Medicare beneficiary premiums, meaning that physician fees become a likely target for curbing costs.

“The way that the legislation is written, it puts physician fees very much up front in the efforts of the IPAB because they have so many restrictions on what else they can do,” said Dr. Littenberg. “It doesn’t leave much [to cut] besides durable medical equipment, pharmaceutical costs and physician services.”

Adapting to Health Care Reform

Physicians who hope to adapt to these myriad changes need to be able to prove their value and then position their practice to work with others to find savings.

In terms of collecting data, physicians have to ask, “How is this going to result in a benefit or recognition for me,” said Dr. Brill. “As a physician, you should be asking that question very critically—how are the data going to translate into an incentive? Will my fees go up? Will I get paid in a more timely manner? Will co-pays to me get reduced or disappear? Will I be freed from having to submit requests for pre-authorization?”

Whether gastroenterologists are collecting data through an electronic medical record system, an endoscopy reporting program or a registry, the data should align with the outcome measures that Medicare and payers want to see, Dr. Brill said.

Gastroenterologists also need to recognize the power structure within their community and make an effort to find partners.

“More than the government, our biggest threat is the local hospitals, who have the ability to change everyday practice a lot more than the government does,” said Dr. Kosinski. “They are forming very, very large, powerful networks and they are buying the primary care base and employing the people that send us business. So my best advice is ‘do not declare war on your hospital.’ And, do not feel like you have to sell your practice to your hospital. Look to pursue ways of being engaged with your local hospital and your local medical community. Don’t spend your entire day in your ASC. You can’t survive if you spend your life just cranking the colons. You’ve got to work with your hospital, joint-venture with them, and stay engaged with your primary care base.”


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Dr. Kosinski reported no relevant financial or other commercial relationship with any manufacturer or provider of products or services relevant to this article. Dr. Littenberg reported financial or other commercial relationships with Abbott Laboratories. Dr. Brill reported financial or other commercial relationships with Avantis Medical Systems, BARRX Medical, Inc., Boston Scientific Corporation, Centocor, Inc., Early Bird Alert, Inc., EndoChoice, Inc., Given Imaging, Novartis Pharmaceuticals, Salix Pharmaceuticals, Inc., SciDose, SmartPill, Spectra Science and USGI.


Thoughts on this
 
That's a fantastic and very informative article! Very eye opening to one such as myself who has no clue on how things are really done. Not to mention the Supreme Court taking up the law in the Spring. I feel like they're over stepping their bounds by getting this far into the reimbursement of physicians. Budget neutral facility fees? How are docs supposed to pay off their ASC or cover overhead expenses as time goes on? Do people and lawmakers really see doctors as people who swim in the $? Health care is a business that needs to be ran in an efficient manner where professionals have a strong desire to help people live the best lives they can.
 
Endoscopy will always be a staple of gastroenterology and will continue to be our main diagnostic/therapeutic modality. I do not foresee endoscopy falling out of favor, but reimbursement will continue to fall and eventually plateau.

This has forced endoscopists to increase their efficiency in order to maintain the status quo, ie doing more procedures in the same amount of time. With a changing landscape involving quality improvement in endoscopy and standardization, gastroenterologists will be compared by their adenoma detection rates and their average withdrawal times which will all be readily available to patients. As a result of all these factors, reimbursement will fall, but no one can predict to what level and how this will effect the field.

Besides the new advances in therapeutic endoscopy ( advanced ERCP, EUS, EMR, enteroscopy, endoscopic stents, radio-frequency ablation), there are no new procedures on the horizon for the mainstream in the near future. Besides, the aforementioned procedures are tedious, time consuming and do not bill significantly more than your standard colonoscopy which takes 20 minutes. Also, in Hepatology, you may see more advance training/ procedures usurped from Interventional Radiology including TIPS, TACE/ SIRT, and portal pressure measurement. It remains to be seen if that is feasible or just a pipe dream of Hepatologists.


Agreed. The only change will be the introduction of the disposable colonscope/gastroscope with the micro camera technology, but this is a few years away.
 
Nobody knows what will happen in the future. Do whatever you like. The general census is that the income across medical specialties will decrease. It is the result of the bad economy that will not improve significantly in the foreseeable future. So expect significant decrease in the GI salaries, though IMO it will remain one of the better paid medical specialties.
The stupidest thing is to choose a medical specialty on the basis of its income. Take into account that you have to scope people almost all day. If you like it that is fine. If you hate it, even a 800K income will not worth it. Don't forget that most of your time will be spent in the hospital or your office, whatever specialty you choose. At least choose something that you like or do not hate.
 
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