Women in medicine

[Textuality]

We had a lecture today about gender bias in medical fields, and it was pretty interesting. We took a test online for unconscious gender bias, and many people's results showed a subconscious bias to associate "career/profession" with "male" and "family" with "female".
Here's the site if you want to try: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/
There's a lot of tests, we did the "gender-career" one.


I was also a little surprised at how many of my male classmates' ideal wife was a part-time or stay at home mom. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just a little surprised is all. I think it's interesting that most women marry laterally or above (career-wise) while most men marry laterally or below.

Any of you out there already cutting out certain residencies because you don't think it'll be compatible with the family role you want to play? I think it's a concern I see more in my female classmates than the males (although some of them are certainly concerned about it too).

I think it's kind of awkward that if a woman is interviewing for a competitive residency like Ortho Surgery, mention of wanting a family might weaken her candidacy because they might not want to risk her taking complicated maternity leaves, or juggling family with work etc. But if a woman says she doesn't want kids, she'll probably be seen as being cold, and get a negative response. :/

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[78222]

 

[MrBurns10]

Any of you out there already cutting out certain residencies because you don't think it'll be compatible with the family role you want to play? I think it's a concern I see more in my female classmates than the males (although some of them are certainly concerned about it too).

I think it's kind of awkward that if a woman is interviewing for a competitive residency like Ortho Surgery, mention of wanting a family might weaken her candidacy because they might not want to risk her taking complicated maternity leaves, or juggling family with work etc. But if a woman says she doesn't want kids, she'll probably be seen as being cold, and get a negative response. :/

Well first, I think once your class gets to rotations quite a few of your classmates (both men and women) will back out of the surgery field because they don't want the lifestyle attached to it. I know several guys, my fiance included, who put family high on the list of importance, but I agree it is still more of a female thing. It takes a looooong time to break tradition.

As for the residency interview, I don't even think they can ask about family. But I was actually thinking about that the other day, how it's not cool for residencies/jobs to discriminate against women for fear that they'll have kids but yet I kind of understand it. I can see why the temptation exists to take an applicant you know won't take 6-8 weeks off in the middle of residency to have a child over someone who may. Luckily that's illegal

 

[UnderdogMD]

I typed out a lengthy response to this thread and then deleted it. I have no desire or time to get into a gender war with women. My opinions usually align with the more traditional roles of men/women.

Let me summarize:
What I hate is when women want their cake and want to eat it too.

 

[njbmd]

Discussions of marital status and family planning are not generally allowed during residency interviews and are not topics of discussion. If you as an applicant, decide to interject these matters into your residency interview, you may have consequences that you don't want. When I interviewed for surgery, several of my co-applicants were obviously pregnant women. They were able to get into residency and were not asked about their family planning as these questions are illegal.

I have plenty of friends who are female surgeons and I have a couple of female friends who are orthopedic surgeons (one practices at Hopkins). In any job that a young woman enters, family planning will be a concern. In medicine, it's not an all or none situation and my colleagues from residency were able to give birth without any consequences or damages to their children or career.

In 2008, as a woman, you can have a career and you can have a family. What you cannot have is being able to stay at home and complete a residency. If this is your aim, even Family Medicine isn't going to work for you and definitely, the surgical specialties are not going to be possible.

Also, child rearing is not the sole responsibility of women. Women do not become pregnant in isolation (unless artificial insemination) and therefore men are not exempt from childcare and childrearing responsibilities. In my residency programs, a couple of the male residents were married to fellow residents and there were several births without anyone's career ending.

In terms of career, you do what you have to do and what you need to do. Stereotypes and associations are of no use to you but taking practical action to plan for your family and your career will allow you have have the best of both worlds. If I paid attention to stereotypes, I would be scrubbing floors in the hospital instead of repairing abdominal aortic aneurysms. I simply reject anything that doesn't further my career.

 

[MrBurns10]

Let me summarize:
What I hate is when women want their cake and want to eat it too.

What you have to realize is that it's not that women are "having their cake and eating it too" so much as it is "having their cake and eating it while serving it to their husbands." Men feel it's okay for a woman to hold a full-time job yet have to take care of the family and do 90% of the cooking/housework. Women are some of the hardest working people out there. Luckily, there are men out there who think they should do some of the child-rearing and household chores as well, and they make great husbands for those of us who just seem to "want everything."

 

[UnderdogMD]

Men feel it's okay for a woman to hold a full-time job yet have to take care of the family and do 90% of the cooking/housework.

If that is the impression you got from my post them I'm sorry because I clearly miscommunicated.

I don't feel its okay. This is what I'm arguing against. Women can choose one or the other. Otherwise she is one person trying to do a two person job. Then, either her employer suffers or her family suffers because obviously she cannot be at two places at once.

I plan on letting my wife decide what she wants out of life. Does she want to work or does she want to stay at home and raise the kids/run the household etc. I have no problem with what she chooses because I'll take which ever job is left. I wouldn't mind being a stay at home dad (I don't think a woman should cook and clean just because she has a vagina) and holding off on my career. That is the heart of my argument. We can't have it all (men or women). None of us can. At some point each of us have to decide what is more important to us and make some sacrifices.

 

[ACSurgeon]

What bothers me is when I hear classmates saying they plan on working part time in the future. There is a big enough shortage as it is, and I don't think anyone does the field a favor by taking a spot in med school/residency, only to work part time afterwards (regardless of their sex chromosomes).

 

[muireinin]

What bothers me is when I hear classmates saying they plan on working part time in the future. There is a big enough shortage as it is, and I don't think anyone does the field a favor by taking a spot in med school/residency, only to work part time afterwards (regardless of their sex chromosomes).

if they earned the spot, they get to decide what they want to do. there should be no restrictions on whether they practice full-time or part-time or some mixture of both over a lifetime.

 

[yadayadadude]

UnderdogMD, I sympathize with your position – I used it hold it myself. “MY children will never be in daycare,” old-me would say. “And if my husband won’t stay home with them, well, I’ll just have to make that sacrifice.” Now that I am a wife and the mother of a baby son, I have reconsidered this line of thinking.

Here is how our family is organized: I am a medical student, currently applying to residency programs. This year, I am engaged in full time research, but next year, I’ll be an intern. My husband works full time at a flexible job which he loves. My baby attends a high-quality daycare center about fours hours a day because we stagger our work days and I work some from home. (Next year, he’ll likely be at daycare more like 6-7 hours a day. My husband will temporarily rearrange his work schedule to accommodate my long and irregular hours.) My baby is thriving at daycare; my husband and I are thriving at work. Our marriage is strong. We are happy.

Here is what I have come to realize: the “sacrifice” that my baby makes by attending a high-quality daycare center for a modest number of hours per week is relatively small. He is well-cared for at his center. He is not being “raised” by “strangers”; he is being raised by his (doting) parents, with some help from loving, competent, professional caregivers. The negative effect on him and his development is truly negligible. On the other hand, the sacrifice my husband or I would make by staying home with our baby is enormous. This would require our family to forgo significant lifetime earnings which will pay for private school and other enrichments for our son and will reduce the burden on him when we are elderly. Much more important than the financial sacrifice, however, is the emotional/spiritual sacrifice that comes from losing meaningful work outside the home (assuming that neither parent wants to be a stay-at-home parent – obviously, that’s a different story). Staying home, either my husband or I would quickly become resentful and frustrated. Our peer-marriage, which is one of the treasures of my life, would suffer and my son benefits immeasurably from the happy marriage his parents enjoy. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, it would be foolish to make an enormous sacrifice (leaving the workforce) to avoid a small, temporary sacrifice (a few years of high-quality child care).

Finally, your idea that two careers + children requires one person to shoulder the burden of two jobs isn’t very imaginative. My husband and I have had to be creative to arrive at ways in which we can care for our son and continue to pursue our careers. “Managing the household” doesn’t have to be a full-time gig; it’s not really that difficult. We’ve divided the household tasks equitably (I clean and manage our finances; he cooks), and we spend some money on services (like a housekeeper and semi-regular take-out for dinner). The much bigger deal is dividing the work of parenting, and I expect we’ll come to a pretty equitable arrangement here as well (averaged over years, rather than hours or days … I do a bit more parenting this year, my husband will do more parenting while I’m an intern, I plan to work somewhat less than full-time someday). So far, it’s been worth it and I’m confident we’ll succeed similarly, and reap similar rewards, into the future. For us, this is so much better than simply throwing up our hands and declaring parenting to be incompatible with work.

 

[Textuality]

My classmate and I were actually talking about Paternity leave in the US, I actually had never heard of that until recently, lol. But I think paternity leave is a great thing, and I would think most guys would take advantage of it? I don't think women are the only ones occasionally feeling the gender bias, I'd think there are guys out there who would love to take paternity leave and don't appreciate comments like "don't you have a wife?" or might be worried about being seen as less "professional" or less manly because they want to ask for time off to spend time with kids. It's probably harder for guys to ask for paternity leave than women to ask for maternity leave.

I don't have anything against traditional gender roles (as long as they aren't imposed on people forcefully), it can just be frustrating sometimes because what makes a woman seem strong as a student (discipline, determination, work ethic, control) can make her seem cold as a woman because people tend to expect women to be warmer and more empathetic and forgiving. It's a little tricky.

And I by no means meant to imply that work and family were incompatible, just that women and men face different pressures and expectations and motivations when considering the balance they want. I think the biases affect both genders, not just women. I've definitely met couples that make it work, and I certainly hope to be one of them I know how lucky I am to have a partner who's so supportive and flexible.

Haha, the lecturer used the term "Babe In Total Control of Herself" which I thought was hilarious.

 

[NonTradMed]

If that is the impression you got from my post them I'm sorry because I clearly miscommunicated.

I don't feel its okay. This is what I'm arguing against. Women can choose one or the other. Otherwise she is one person trying to do a two person job. Then, either her employer suffers or her family suffers because obviously she cannot be at two places at once.

I plan on letting my wife decide what she wants out of life. Does she want to work or does she want to stay at home and raise the kids/run the household etc. I have no problem with what she chooses because I'll take which ever job is left. I wouldn't mind being a stay at home dad (I don't think a woman should cook and clean just because she has a vagina) and holding off on my career. That is the heart of my argument. We can't have it all (men or women). None of us can. At some point each of us have to decide what is more important to us and make some sacrifices.

While it's great that there are men now who do not look down on the prospect of staying at home, I don't think the career/job thing is a all or none proposition. People have traditionally worked and brought up families at the same time.

I had a black friend point out that the issue of SAHM vs working mom is not such a huge thing within the African-american community because most black women have traditionally worked because black men earned so little. As a result, many black women don't feel a conflict of staying at home, even if they have a spouse that earns enough for them to do so.

Also, the "traditional" family in the nuclear sense with the breadwinner/homemaker is a creation of the modern age, and does not apply to many families in this world. I grew up in a modern Chinese family, which meant it was just me and my parents. The rest of my family all grew up in the traditional Chinese family where our grandparents were fulltime caretakers of their grandkids until they reached school-age. My aunts and uncles exchanged childcare as needed. The idea of an able-bodied worker whose sole full time purpose was taking care of a family's need is/was a foreign concept to my parents growing up.

Anyways, so I grew up with dual career household, as did most/all my Chinese friends and none of us were worse for wear. We all went to college, many to good ones, and most were high achievers. So I guess I don't see the negative consequences of working parents (at no worse than having SAH parents).

However, when I was little, I saw my mother struggle with balancing of motherhood and her career, but mostly because she was used to the idea of having extended families nearby and having a supportive social network that welcomed working mothers. Since she had neither, it was difficult for her at first. But now that I'm older, I see my mother in a successful career she enjoys, and far more financial security than other women of her age who had she taken the housewife/part-time route.

From my mother, I know it's doable to have both career and motherhood and do well on both (hey, I think I had a happy childhood and was well brought up). But I admit it's not for everyone. When the kids are young, it's going to be hard on the mother (notice I didn't say on the kids ). But the benefits are multifold later on in life.

My personal belief is that staying home is extremely isolating and not very emotionally satisfying, but neither is being obsessive about work. I don't buy into the idea that you can't be a good parent and a good worker. I think being a human being means you have many hats to wear----as a parent, as a doctor, a ping pong player etc.

I think what's unhealthy is to believe what one chooses to do, one has to devote 100% of their time doing. I think the perfect life is to have a 40 hour/week job where you can come home to and see your spouse and kids. It's not to have a 80 hour/week job with a spouse at home, or being a fulltime housewife. I know being a doctor will require a tricky balance, but if my mother, who came here as an immigrant speaking broken english with no family/friends can make it happen, then I really have it easy and should be able to make it work as well.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I don't think other people's choices to become a 80hr/week surgeon or a fulltime parent is bad. I think everyone has a different temperament but I would find either choice unpalatable.

Ultimately, I think the best idea is to find the balance that works for you and not assume that one is superior, because what's good for one person may be bad for another.

 

[PreMedMommy]

If that is the impression you got from my post them I'm sorry because I clearly miscommunicated.

I don't feel its okay. This is what I'm arguing against. Women can choose one or the other. Otherwise she is one person trying to do a two person job. Then, either her employer suffers or her family suffers because obviously she cannot be at two places at once.

I plan on letting my wife decide what she wants out of life. Does she want to work or does she want to stay at home and raise the kids/run the household etc. I have no problem with what she chooses because I'll take which ever job is left. I wouldn't mind being a stay at home dad (I don't think a woman should cook and clean just because she has a vagina) and holding off on my career. That is the heart of my argument. We can't have it all (men or women). None of us can. At some point each of us have to decide what is more important to us and make some sacrifices.

I agree with you. I want a career in medicine. I've tried being a stay-at-home mom/housewife, and I hated it. I love my kids, but staying at home all day with them is depressing to me. I have a brain, and I want to use it. Fortunately for me, my husband supports that and can't wait to be a stay-at-home dad. Granted, by the time we get there our kids will be half-grown, but that discussion is for another topic.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

No one (with half a brain) thinks it is at all unreasonable for anyone to want to balance family life with work. But it is equally unreasonable for someone with multiple serious obligations to think that they are meeting them all with their full effort.

I'm sorry, but if you want to become a world-class Neurosurgeon (or a world class internist) while trying to simultaneously care for small children you are not going to succeed unless you are some sort of super-person. There just are not that many hours in the day. When I go for my emergent craniotomy I don't care if the girl about to cut my skull off felt self-actualized during her residency.

 

[UnderdogMD]

I guess I should make clear that when I meant "couples" and "work" I meant couples where both are physicians, and work as practicing medicine. In general, there are considerable differences in terms of effort and time investment in practicing medicine and the average job.

I know I tend to think of things as black and white and that is something I need to work on.

 

[Water011]

No one (with half a brain) thinks it is at all unreasonable for anyone to want to balance family life with work. But it is equally unreasonable for someone with multiple serious obligations to think that they are meeting them all with their full effort.

I'm sorry, but if you want to become a world-class Neurosurgeon (or a world class internist) while trying to simultaneously care for small children you are not going to succeed unless you are some sort of super-person. There just are not that many hours in the day. When I go for my emergent craniotomy I don't care if the girl about to cut my skull off felt self-actualized during her residency.

So I guess no great male neurosurgeon has ever had kids? Why would it be the sole responsibility of the woman (not girl, as I'm pretty sure there are no girl neurosurgeons; they are all grown-ups) to care for the small children? No one on this thread has said that she wanted to be a stay at home mom and surgeon at the same time (obviously impossible). Women are just saying that they'd like the same opportunities that men have traditionally had. That is, they would like to have careers and families. Would you ask a man how he planned to have a family and a great career? No. That's because you assume he'll have a wife who will take care of all the family stuff. Your assumption that women are the ones who are responsible for caring for children, cooking, cleaning, etc. comes through pretty clearly here. Those things do not have to be the sole responsibility of women. Mothers and fathers should be able to balance family responsibilities together, like some previous posters have said that they are. That means that, yes, women can have great careers and families because they do not have to "do it all." Unless they are single mothers, they have partners that can help them out with things at home. Why do career-women have "multiple serious obligations" while career-men just have careers?

 

[VPDcurt]

I'm all about women in medicine as they are just as capable as men. However, I think society is in a sad state when it is frowned upon if a woman decides to stay home and raise her family. That is not a failure, but society seems to view it as such these days. People are way too PC and it's hurting America in so many ways. Women who go out and do things for the sake of proving their independence or ability are not only hurting themselves, but their families as well. Regardless of your gender, there is no shame in raising a family. Men and women can both be great doctors, but I'm going to have to side with women as being much better when it comes to raising a family. There is no substitute for the XX in that situation.

 

[yadayadadude]

Men and women can both be great doctors, but I'm going to have to side with women as being much better when it comes to raising a family. There is no substitute for the XX in that situation.

This is nonsense. My husband is a phenomenal parent to our son, just as good as I am or better at exactly everything except breastfeeding. He's not such a PC guy himself, so he calls our arrangement "co-mothering" rather than "co-parenting", just to needle me ... but I don't care what he calls it, so long as he does it, and does it well.

 

[yadayadadude]

No one (with half a brain) thinks it is at all unreasonable for anyone to want to balance family life with work. But it is equally unreasonable for someone with multiple serious obligations to think that they are meeting them all with their full effort.

I agree. But, as I described above, parenting doesn't require my full effort, because my husband pulls his weight. In fact, he'll pull more than his weight during the years when medicine requires more of my effort (residency).

When I go for my emergent craniotomy I don't care if the girl about to cut my skull off felt self-actualized during her residency.

1. Blech.
2. You're right. Patients probably don't care if docs are "self-actualized". On the other hand, I happen to care quite a lot that my colleagues and spouse are happy and healthy. Not to mention, myself.

 

[PreMedMommy]

I'm all about women in medicine as they are just as capable as men. However, I think society is in a sad state when it is frowned upon if a woman decides to stay home and raise her family. That is not a failure, but society seems to view it as such these days. People are way too PC and it's hurting America in so many ways. Women who go out and do things for the sake of proving their independence or ability are not only hurting themselves, but their families as well. Regardless of your gender, there is no shame in raising a family. Men and women can both be great doctors, but I'm going to have to side with women as being much better when it comes to raising a family. There is no substitute for the XX in that situation.

I agree with you to some extent, there is nothing wrong with women who want to stay at home. I have the highest respect for any woman who is able to stay home and raise a family. It is not easy. Med school is a walk in the park compared to taking care of a family and home everyday. It's just not for me. I'm actually a better parent since I am able to get out and use my gifts rather than let them waste in my home. I get too frustrated with my kids when I have no intellectual outlet. There's no sense in giving that up and making my kids suffer for it. However, I don't think society is frowing on women who stay at home. Quite the opposite, especially when women still feel like they have to defend their decision to join a profession such as medicine. As is the case when asked about future family planning during applications to med school, residency, or a job. Yes these questions are illegal, but you are niave if you truly believe that these questions aren't being asked. (Not saying this is the case here, so don't get your undies in a wad.)

 

[Textuality]

Yes these questions are illegal, but you are niave if you truly believe that these questions aren't being asked. (Not saying this is the case here, so don't get your undies in a wad.)

Even if they aren't asked, if they see a ring on a woman's finger, they might be wondering about it in the back of their head. Whereas if they saw a ring on a man's finger, I don't think that concern would register as much because generally speaking, most people wouldn't wonder "hmm..I wonder if he'll be asking for paternity leave".

And if you think stay at home moms are starting to get a bad rap, I think it's probably rougher to be a stay at home dad.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

So I guess no great male neurosurgeon has ever had kids? Why would it be the sole responsibility of the woman (not girl, as I'm pretty sure there are no girl neurosurgeons; they are all grown-ups) to care for the small children? No one on this thread has said that she wanted to be a stay at home mom and surgeon at the same time (obviously impossible). Women are just saying that they'd like the same opportunities that men have traditionally had. That is, they would like to have careers and families. Would you ask a man how he planned to have a family and a great career? No. That's because you assume he'll have a wife who will take care of all the family stuff. Your assumption that women are the ones who are responsible for caring for children, cooking, cleaning, etc. comes through pretty clearly here. Those things do not have to be the sole responsibility of women. Mothers and fathers should be able to balance family responsibilities together, like some previous posters have said that they are. That means that, yes, women can have great careers and families because they do not have to "do it all." Unless they are single mothers, they have partners that can help them out with things at home. Why do career-women have "multiple serious obligations" while career-men just have careers?

For some bizarre reason you are assuming that I was only talking about women. Everything I said applies to men as well. I made none of the assumptions that you say I did...

 

[rvarsity]

if they earned the spot, they get to decide what they want to do. there should be no restrictions on whether they practice full-time or part-time or some mixture of both over a lifetime.

This is dangerous and dissapointing thinking.

Dont you know what happens when physicians work part time?

Nurses, PA's, and CRNA's are more than willing to pick up the extra responsibililty.

Its nice at first, but the s hit eventually hits the fan.

Don't believe me? Look at what has happend to anesthesia.

Here are some gems I've heard from the women in the anesthesia program at my hospital...

"My husbands a lawyer, i just need to make a little extra for purses and shoes..."

"Why would I sacrifice all my time to make partner - I want to be home everyday at 2 and work no weekends..."

"xxxx is going into Ortho, I'm only going to work part time..."

All true and pretty much verbatim quotes.

I also worry about ER. More and more PA's are picking up shifts under the supervision of ER physicians because more and more docs want to work part time. Sure, complicated cases/traumas still are MD territory, but maybe 20 years from now we'll have 1 or 2 ER docs supervising 20 PA's. Try to find a job then. Hmmm, sounds familiar...anesthesia part 2 anyone.

I mean, why the hell did you go into medicine? How many docs in the previous generations worked part time? Umm, none. Doctors historically have been amongst the hardest working people in this country - they also got paid well for it. I dunno, seems fair to me.

I dont want to sound sexist or whatever, but it seems like its mostly the women in medicine that want to work part time (I did NOT say ALL - I mean of all the people that want to work part time, its mostly women for whatever reason in my limited experience). Do you tell the admission commitee that in your medical school interview? I didn't think so.

Nowadays, women (AND some men) want their cake and eat it too (great and very pertinent quote). They dont want to sacrifice enough and they go to the court/lawyers and start screaming discrimination when private practice groups wont hire them.

I want kids and large family too, but I'll hire a nanny, call in the grand parents, or let the tv raise my kids before I sell out the field.

Medicine isn't a part time job. If you think it is, do us all a favor and quit now. Maybe PA or CRNA school is where you should look.

 

[muireinin]

whoa there sparky,
i never said anything about personally wanting to work part-time. however, to incorporate something like this into the admissions process is insane. why should schools accept a lesser candidate because they promise to work very very hard over someone who is more qualified but refuses to make this career into a monastic calling? what faith could be placed in such promises? ppl will give an arm and a leg to get in.

I also worry about ER. More and more PA's are picking up shifts under the supervision of ER physicians because more and more docs want to work part time. Sure, complicated cases/traumas still are MD territory, but maybe 20 years from now we'll have 1 or 2 ER docs supervising 20 PA's. Try to find a job then. Hmmm, sounds familiar...anesthesia part 2 anyone.

how much of this is due to "women" wanting to work part-time and how much to the general shortage of physicians? i doubt the majority of female students apply to med school thinking that they'll cash out early. but who knows what's going to happen in life? there should (and thankfully there is) the flexibility that if you cannot work full-time for a period in your life, you can work part-time. for women AND men.

i hardly think taking 5 years or so part-time is "selling out the field." and i personally think ppl should think twice if they ONLY want to practice part-time. but should they be denied admission to medical school if they are qualified? no. they earned it, they have the freedom to do what they like with it. anything else is incredibly invasive.

 

[badasshairday]

The previous generations of physicians worked FULL TIME. What has changed since that time? In the early 90s women started approaching 50% of med school matriculants, and it seems that this generation is the "I want to work part time" generation. Coincidence? Maybe.

Maybe it is the whole generation's thinking, both men and women want to work less now a days because we are the "want the cake and eat it too" generation. Or maybe this part time thing is stemming from the fact that more women are entering medicine. I really don't know.

 

[indo]

I associated white people with weapons, slightly. Crazy white kids and their grenades and muskets.

 

[gujuDoc]

I guess I should make clear that when I meant "couples" and "work" I meant couples where both are physicians, and work as practicing medicine. In general, there are considerable differences in terms of effort and time investment in practicing medicine and the average job.

I know I tend to think of things as black and white and that is something I need to work on.

Do you think it is ok for a woman to go into medicine but in a path of medicine that is a reasonable lifestyle specialty i.e. derm, rads, etc. and raise a family?? That is considering the father maybe in an even more demanding role then the mother?? I guess what I'm getting at is this....if the woman is in a job that is educated but 9-5 kinda regular hours, do you think that is a bad thing????

I feel there are a lot of guys turning down girls because they don't want to give up work but the girls they are turning down are not some surgeons with crazy hours but dentists, pharmacists, and optometrists with regular working hours.

I think a few things to take into consideration. Why is it ok that when there are financial hardships 2 parents are allowed to work but if the financial status is decent then it is such abad thing that one doesnt stay at home. In both cases kids mayactually turn out ok

Why is it ok to say that a single parent who might have raised a good child can work because they are single but 2 parents can't work if one is already working?? These are just some food for thought.

I'm not disagreeing that there should be one parent who is working less and able to spend more time with kids if both can't balance it out, but just saying why is one thing ok but not another??

People always say it is i only in the working mom's households where the kids may go off the deep end but I've seen at least one or 2 cases where the mom stayed at home and sacrificed everything to have it returned with a child going off the other end so to speak. It is kinda disheartening.

 

[gujuDoc]

No one (with half a brain) thinks it is at all unreasonable for anyone to want to balance family life with work. But it is equally unreasonable for someone with multiple serious obligations to think that they are meeting them all with their full effort.

I'm sorry, but if you want to become a world-class Neurosurgeon (or a world class internist) while trying to simultaneously care for small children you are not going to succeed unless you are some sort of super-person. There just are not that many hours in the day. When I go for my emergent craniotomy I don't care if the girl about to cut my skull off felt self-actualized during her residency.

Usually most people wanting a family aren't considering things like neurosurgeon--male or female, regardless of gender. The uber difficult hour residency spots are becoming less and less popular among medical students these days. I remember in ugrad when the current wave of med students c/o 2009-2011 were all about becoming sugeons. They were all mostly guys saying this. Today if you ask these same men what they want to do, most will say some sort of easier life style specialty or shift based medicine i.e. EM or things like IM subspecialties.

As per women, most women will say things like dental school rather then med school, or if med school and planning a family they will say derm, rads, rad onco, or things of that nature. the girls I know that are stil wanting something like surgry are the ones who have never thought of th idea of having a family of their own.

So I think these are some things to take into account. Not every female in medicine is wanting a husband or family. I know quite a few who are happy to be childless.

 

[rachmoninov3]

I will probably be disowned by the other females of this thread, but for me the decision to have children and be a physician is a personal choice. For me, that means no kids.
It'd take three of me to raise my husband's progeny (hyperactive, way to smart for his own good), I could not see doing so while having to balance work, call, etc. Even some of the shift-work specialties don't guarrentee that I'll be out at 7pm for a 8pm recital or ball game.

Should all women have to choose being a mom or being a physician? No. While my beliefs on this subject may be quite millitant, I respect our suffergette foremothers enough not to impose them on other women.

 

[Water011]

For some bizarre reason you are assuming that I was only talking about women. Everything I said applies to men as well. I made none of the assumptions that you say I did...

Sorry, I just thought you were talking about women since you mentioned the "girl" neurosurgeon. Since none of the women in this thread said that they wanted to be the primary caregiver + a full-time world-class physician (all said they had husbands/daycare/whatever), I didn't see why you felt the need to mention that such a thing would be impossible. I guess I don't really understand where you were going with your comment if you weren't addressing it towards women. I mean, men have always had children and careers because they had wives to help out at home. Now that men are more likely to pull their weight with kids/home-life, I would think the same thing would be true for women. And if you agree with that statement (which I think you do; sorry I misunderstood you earlier), then I don't get why you think people can't fulfill "multiple serious obligations" if they share them. I mean, if all parents have these obligations, how are any parents fulfilling them?

I just thought that your "girl" neurosurgeon comment was condescending, and I guess it made me look at your whole post in the wrong light. Sorry.

 

[mac_kin]

What bothers me is when I hear classmates saying they plan on working part time in the future. There is a big enough shortage as it is, and I don't think anyone does the field a favor by taking a spot in med school/residency, only to work part time afterwards (regardless of their sex chromosomes).

that is one my biggest pet peeves as well! I know so many bright, talented young people who are applying for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time, and there are a good handful of students who are already saying they want to work part time - the men usually say they want time to pursue their hobbies while women say they want time to relax, shop etc. No lie - there are people here who have told me "my hubby will be rich anyway, so why should i also work full-time when I can go shopping/tanning"...why are you in medicine??

 

[njbmd]

What bothers me is when I hear classmates saying they plan on working part time in the future. There is a big enough shortage as it is, and I don't think anyone does the field a favor by taking a spot in med school/residency, only to work part time afterwards (regardless of their sex chromosomes).

I know plenty of people who contribute more part-time to medicine than most folks contribute full-time. Medical school gives you options and if you get through your training, you have the right to practice as you see fit.

This same argument has been put forth as a reason not to take women or older students into medical school as they are "taking a spot" from someone who is more deserving (read male and younger), who will practice longer. There is nothing written in stone as to how long anyone regardless of sex, age or intentions while pre-med will practice.

I would rather have plenty of part-time folks who actually do their jobs and take care of their patients than the full-time folks who are cutting corners in order to increase their salaries. I see more laziness on the part of my full-time colleagues that any of my part-time colleagues who practice at a very high level.

The last time I looked, this was a free country. If you enter medicine, business, environmental services, you have the right to practice your profession as you see fit.

 

[GoLakers310]

Women should stay home to cook and to take care of kids. Most successful and HANDSOME guys want this type of girls. It is no surprise that most successful and hot guys marry such girls while UGLY doctors or residents or lawyers marry successful female physicians or alike. Female physicians don't have much choice: marry these ugly successful guys or some hobo off the street.
Good luck females try finding HOT fellow physicians or rich guys. You all will probably need it!

 

[Lopyswine]

Women should stay home to cook and to take care of kids. Most successful and HANDSOME guys want this type of girls. It is no surprise that most successful and hot guys marry such girls while UGLY doctors or residents or lawyers marry successful female physicians or alike. Female physicians don't have much choice: marry these ugly successful guys or some hobo off the street.
Good luck females try finding HOT fellow physicians or rich guys. You all will probably need it!

you're ridiculous.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

My mommy's a doctor and I fly off the handle whenever I hear a stay-at-home mom refer to herself as a 'full-time mom'. I go ape doodoo. And believe me, having handled sanitation duties for a large primate sanctuary, I know my primate poop. It is completely possible for a woman to be an effective and outstanding mother and enjoy a career in medicine. Does it require some serious juggling and creativity? Absolutely.

Grandparents taking on caregiver roles. Working 4 days instead of 5. Going in saturday to do your charting and dictation so you can get home at a reasonable hour on the weekdays. Things like that.

I do believe that the medical field doesn't take babymaking seriously enough when they set forth our curricula and just how many years residency takes.

Let's face it. Medicine and the medical education system was set up a long time ago by a bunch of monomaniacal crazy white men who were quite frankly pathological in their dedication to work to the exclusion of all else. Cushing, Halsted, and Osler were hardly saints.

At this point residency is at least as much about propping up medicaid, medicare, and the VA as it is about training. How much time in residency is really spent learning and how much babysitting? Does it really take 5 years to train a general surgeon? Who knows, we've never tried shorter. Does it take 3 to train an internist? I bet two would be plenty. Do the hours really have to suck? I don't believe so. They certainly wouldn't if we used PAs/NPs to take over babysitting duties and left the real medicine training to the residents. Could a part-time 4 year internal medicine residency be a possibility? Work something reasonable like you know 60 hours a week? Would certainly make raising a family easier.

And as biology-oriented individuals shouldn't we recognize that the ideal time to have children is in your twenties? Why then do we fill those years with the most rigorous and strenuous parts of our medical careers?

By the way, I have man parts. I just think a lot of medical education/training is about mutual masturbation and 'we are sooo hardcore look at how much life we sacrificed!' as it is anything else.

 

[nsx]

Women should stay home to cook and to take care of kids. Most successful and HANDSOME guys want this type of girls. It is no surprise that most successful and hot guys marry such girls while UGLY doctors or residents or lawyers marry successful female physicians or alike. Female physicians don't have much choice: marry these ugly successful guys or some hobo off the street.
Good luck females try finding HOT fellow physicians or rich guys. You all will probably need it!

You forgot to completely flip the equation around. Females making bank don't need to marry rich guys.

I grew up next to a very conservative family of EIGHT. The lawyer worked regular hours, while her husband stayed home and raised the children. I always think of them when these kinds of discussions come up.

If you're hot and fun to be around, guys will like you. Period. If you want to work full-time and have a family, you should look for the male version of a "wife"--cute, pleasant, and willing to take care of the house/child rearing.

I think problems occur when females making bank forget to completely flip the equation around--they go for men of power/status, when they should be looking for a "wife".

I realize your post was meant to be inflammatory, but I think it's important to pinpoint exactly why you're wrong . It's 2008 and this stuff happens. Get a prenup and get used to it.

 

[Noeljan]

I know plenty of people who contribute more part-time to medicine than most folks contribute full-time. Medical school gives you options and if you get through your training, you have the right to practice as you see fit.

This same argument has been put forth as a reason not to take women or older students into medical school as they are "taking a spot" from someone who is more deserving (read male and younger), who will practice longer. There is nothing written in stone as to how long anyone regardless of sex, age or intentions while pre-med will practice.

I would rather have plenty of part-time folks who actually do their jobs and take care of their patients than the full-time folks who are cutting corners in order to increase their salaries. I see more laziness on the part of my full-time colleagues that any of my part-time colleagues who practice at a very high level.

The last time I looked, this was a free country. If you enter medicine, business, environmental services, you have the right to practice your profession as you see fit.

 

[Noeljan]

Usually most people wanting a family aren't considering things like neurosurgeon--male or female, regardless of gender. The uber difficult hour residency spots are becoming less and less popular among medical students these days. I remember in ugrad when the current wave of med students c/o 2009-2011 were all about becoming sugeons. They were all mostly guys saying this. Today if you ask these same men what they want to do, most will say some sort of easier life style specialty or shift based medicine i.e. EM or things like IM subspecialties.

As per women, most women will say things like dental school rather then med school, or if med school and planning a family they will say derm, rads, rad onco, or things of that nature. the girls I know that are stil wanting something like surgry are the ones who have never thought of th idea of having a family of their own.

So I think these are some things to take into account. Not every female in medicine is wanting a husband or family. I know quite a few who are happy to be childless.

I plan on doing NS and having one (maybe two) kids. My bf is also a medical student (wants to do rads). I am sure things wont be easy, but sure there will be great times too. I am sure it is not easy for most of the households today (who need to work 2 or more jobs) or the single moms working 2 jobs, but some of the best people can come out of situations where there is no "stay at home mom"

 

[gujuDoc]

I plan on doing NS and having one (maybe two) kids. My bf is also a medical student (wants to do rads). I am sure things wont be easy, but sure there will be great times too. I am sure it is not easy for most of the households today (who need to work 2 or more jobs) or the single moms working 2 jobs, but some of the best people can come out of situations where there is no "stay at home mom"

If he's a radiologist the likelihood that there will be at least one parent with easier hours is there though right?? So its moot point. Because some radiologists technically can even work from home or so I've heard. But even if they can't depending on what u do, it is a lifestyle specialty so you can have better hours. So he will probably be able to have better hours to make it work.

Oh I wasn't saying there needs to be a stay at home mom. I was arguing against that actually.

 

[45408]

I was also a little surprised at how many of my male classmates' ideal wife was a part-time or stay at home mom. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just a little surprised is all. I think it's interesting that most women marry laterally or above (career-wise) while most men marry laterally or below.

It's probably because that's how many of us were raised. My wife works full-time now, but we both plan for her to cut back on work and be the primary caregiver for our future children. If we have a few children, she'll stay at home all of the time. That's what both of our moms did, so we're used to it and comfortable with that type of arrangement.

It's also a personality thing. My wife tends to have more patience and a nurturing attitude than I do. I'm looking forward to having children, but I'll definitely need her patience to help me out.

 

[MrBurns10]

I respect women who choose to stay at home and raise her kids, but I don't think I could do it. The all-day mindless play and lack of real socialization would drive me nuts.

 

[gujuDoc]

I respect women who choose to stay at home and raise her kids, but I don't think I could do it. The all-day mindless play and lack of real socialization would drive me nuts.

I agree with this post a lot!!! You know in India they have joint families where you will live with your spouse and the husband's parents and then your own children. On top of that they have servants to help with household chores in a lot of households.

Yet, despite this most of my cousin's wives are expected to stay home unless they are working with the company. at least one of them got fed up and finally got a teaching job because she felt she was going insane all the time with having to take care of everyone and used to feel trapped all the time. it is something I've seen with other cousins who are female and other cousin's wives as well.

So I know where you are coming from. I don't want to feel like that all the time.

On another note:

I also think another reason a lot more women want to be better educated these days is because with divorce rates as they are and things of that nature, u never know when you'll have no choice but to be able to take care of yourself.

 

[Noeljan]

I agree with this post a lot!!! You know in India they have joint families where you will live with your spouse and the husband's parents and then your own children. On top of that they have servants to help with household chores in a lot of households.

Yet, despite this most of my cousin's wives are expected to stay home unless they are working with the company. at least one of them got fed up and finally got a teaching job because she felt she was going insane all the time with having to take care of everyone and used to feel trapped all the time. it is something I've seen with other cousins who are female and other cousin's wives as well.

So I know where you are coming from. I don't want to feel like that all the time.

On another note:

I also think another reason a lot more women want to be better educated these days is because with divorce rates as they are and things of that nature, u never know when you'll have no choice but to be able to take care of yourself.

totally agree with you(oh and before i knew your point of view, I was just kind of adding on to it I think it is silly and irresponsible for women to not plan to work (and not get an education). What happens if you never find that fairytail guy to provide 100% while you stay home? I wouldn't feel to secure knowing I depended on someone that much. Also, I never understood why women have to stay at home during the day when their kids are school age? I can understand when they are newborns and such, but seriously why does anyone need to be home from 7-3 while they are at school? You are not bonding with your kids at that time.

 

[PreMedMommy]

I respect women who choose to stay at home and raise her kids, but I don't think I could do it. The all-day mindless play and lack of real socialization would drive me nuts.

Yes, it does drive one nuts. As I said in a previous post, just to reiterate, I GREATLY respect any women who can do this.

I also think another reason a lot more women want to be better educated these days is because with divorce rates as they are and things of that nature, u never know when you'll have no choice but to be able to take care of yourself.

I agree with this, I have seen it firsthand between my parents, and I refuse to rely on a man that much. Aside from just divorce, there a multitude of other things that could happen to a spouse, and if these things should occur, I want to be a position where I can take care of myself and my kids and not have to worry about, "holy crap, what do I do know, I have no job, no education..." I don't have to worry about that scenario.

 

[VPDcurt]

I also think another reason a lot more women want to be better educated these days is because with divorce rates as they are

The chicken or the egg?

 

[gujuDoc]

Yes, it does drive one nuts. As I said in a previous post, just to reiterate, I GREATLY respect any women who can do this.



I agree with this, I have seen it firsthand between my parents, and I refuse to rely on a man that much. Aside from just divorce, there a multitude of other things that could happen to a spouse, and if these things should occur, I want to be a position where I can take care of myself and my kids and not have to worry about, "holy crap, what do I do know, I have no job, no education..." I don't have to worry about that scenario.

Yeah true. The husband could pass away or get seriously terminally ill or another number of scenarios. These are the sort of things I was trying to get at without having to go on and on.

 

[gujuDoc]

The chicken or the egg?

what? I don't get it.

 

[MrBurns10]

"Women are better than men at managing the home/taking care of the kids" is one of the most backhanded compliments. Women realized this and decided to have careers of their own. I personally think it had less to do with a fear of divorce.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

You forgot to completely flip the equation around. Females making bank don't need to marry rich guys.

Yet, most/many still attempt to. Its a natural instinct for women to marry an equal or higher status man.

 

[coldweatherblue]

"Women are better than men at managing the home/taking care of the kids" is one of the most backhanded compliments.

It's only a backhanded compliment if you consider devoting a large part of your life to the education and character of your children to be mindless, socially unfulfilling activity. If you feel that the joy/fulfillment a close and happy family brings throughout one's life is more important than the satisfaction you get from your career, it is a sincere compliment and perhaps the most worthwhile thing one can do in life.

A lot of posters in here are arguing as if being a career-first woman was something out of the ordinary. Rather I've noticed that it is seen as progressive and modern for a woman to devote more time to her career than in the past and women who still want to work only part-time and spend the more time taking care of things at home/children are becoming rarer and rarer.