Word of advice for current and future residents

[UTSouthwestern]

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After having wasted an evening reviewing candidates to hire, I want to again emphasize to current and future residents that the easiest way to submarine your chances at a good job (and waste people's time reviewing your CV and interviewing you) is by being lazy, arrogant, and self-centered.

I had thought my group had found a great candidate from a great program on the east coast, only to have comments like "lazy, interested in only what's best for him, not a team player, arrogant, thinks he knows everything," etc. show up when speaking to his faculty.

YOU CANNOT JUST WORK HARD PART OF THE TIME. It will come out at some point and you will just screw your chances of getting a good position.

 

[Laryngospasm]

After having wasted an evening reviewing candidates to hire, I want to again emphasize to current and future residents that the easiest way to submarine your chances at a good job (and waste people's time reviewing your CV and interviewing you) is by being lazy, arrogant, and self-centered.

I had thought my group had found a great candidate from a great program on the east coast, only to have comments like "lazy, interested in only what's best for him, not a team player, arrogant, thinks he knows everything," etc. show up when speaking to his faculty.

YOU CANNOT JUST WORK HARD PART OF THE TIME. It will come out at some point and you will just screw your chances of getting a good position.

Damn, I wonder what my staff would say about me? 😱

 

[UTSouthwestern]

Damn, I wonder what my staff would say about me? 😱

All kidding aside, hopefully nothing like what this guy's faculty said. It is just frustrating knowing that you wasted so much time recruiting someone with a sparkling record on paper who doesn't pass something so simple as a verbal reference.

 

[Laryngospasm]

All kidding aside, hopefully nothing like what this guy's faculty said. It is just frustrating knowing that you wasted so much time recruiting someone with a sparkling record on paper who doesn't pass something so simple as a verbal reference.

Agreed, hopefully your search will improve in the future.

 

[jetproppilot]

All kidding aside, hopefully nothing like what this guy's faculty said. It is just frustrating knowing that you wasted so much time recruiting someone with a sparkling record on paper who doesn't pass something so simple as a verbal reference.

I second UTs posts.

And if youre in doubt concerning what private-practice MDs look for in a candidate, please review the dudes-already-in-practice's posts concerning this subject that post on here regularly.

We're the dudes that hire MDs.

Technical prowess/clinical judgement is important.

But JUST as important is ability to blend in with a group, ability to get along with people, and a lack-of-bickering attitude.

 

[ThinkFast007]

i agree w/ Jet and UTSW ...or atleast can see you all's point (although i'm a MSIV).

but...what i've seen in medicine....also having rotated through various other schools is that you have hte 'smartest' ppl from high school, college, etc now in a residency. i have found that invariably there is some form of 'clashing' or at least difference of opinion. I've rotated through hospitals, where residents have told me that stupid $hit (but nothing severe) that they've done as a cA1 has been held against them for 3 yrs or so. in fact some attendings are STILL a little hesitant about letting them do certain procedures as a CA3...although other attendings are completely ok w/ their skills. Some attendings , especially in academia can be real sticklers.

I agree that ppl should be able to get along w/ others. but dont you guys feel that it's a little too much IF the guy is great on paper, scores, etc...but may have had problems w/ say ONE faculty member?

hopefuly, that wont ever happen to me or anyone on here, but it just seems $hitty if ONE attending has this bad impression of a resident which later on causes this resident to not get the job of his dreams. I mean, it's totally different if u all interview him and he's a complete sociopath...

what do you think? I'm just trying to put myself in this guy's shoes, and I think it would completely suck if my future job was completely screwed over by one faculty member 😕

 

[toughlife]

👍 Great advice. Keep it coming. Another thing that would be useful to know besides learning how to join a group is how one goes about starting a group.

Some of us like to know more than just how to ask for a job. I want to learn how you create them.


thanks,

 

[Misterioso]

Pure talent and ability will always rise to the top. You can't fake that stuff. People can, and do, fake to create good impressions.

If a group doesn't want you because of what others are saying about you then you shouldn't want to go there anyway. Never compromise yourself to fit in.

Venture out on your own. Work locum. Be your own independent contracting physician. Be your own man, answer to no one.

 

[AnesthMD]

East coast people, it must be something in the water.

 

[Gimlet]

Pure talent and ability will always rise to the top. You can't fake that stuff. People can, and do, fake to create good impressions.

If a group doesn't want you because of what others are saying about you then you shouldn't want to go there anyway. Never compromise yourself to fit in.

Venture out on your own. Work locum. Be your own independent contracting physician. Be your own man, answer to no one.

I am now dumber for having read this.... 👎

There is something to be said for being your own man, but it's not an excuse to be an a**hole. Reminds me of a guy I knew in college...always prefaced his dickhead actions by telling everyone that he was a jerk. Yeah, okay, you admit that you're a jerk, but that doesn't give you free reign to proceed with your jerkiness.

 

[driverabu]

I am now dumber for having read this.... 👎

I feel even dumber reading it after you said you felt dumb reading it in the first place!! 😱

 

[militarymd]

After having wasted an evening reviewing candidates to hire, I want to again emphasize to current and future residents that the easiest way to submarine your chances at a good job (and waste people's time reviewing your CV and interviewing you) is by being lazy, arrogant, and self-centered.

I had thought my group had found a great candidate from a great program on the east coast, only to have comments like "lazy, interested in only what's best for him, not a team player, arrogant, thinks he knows everything," etc. show up when speaking to his faculty.

YOU CANNOT JUST WORK HARD PART OF THE TIME. It will come out at some point and you will just screw your chances of getting a good position.

I feel your pain brother.

 

[UTSouthwestern]

I feel your pain brother.

Part of it is our fault. We didn't make the decision to hire as many as we intend to, until pretty late into the game. Still, looking at all of those applications is enough to make one's eyes bleed.

 

[Gimlet]

Part of it is our fault. We didn't make the decision to hire as many as we intend to, until pretty late into the game. Still, looking at all of those applications is enough to make one's eyes bleed.

A little off topic here but still somewhat in the same vein...how early do groups start seeking out doctors who will be graduating from their residencies in July? Could a CA-3 expect to have a job many months in advance of his/her residency ending, or does it happen a lot closer to the end?

 

[Misterioso]

I am now dumber for having read this.... 👎

You wouldn't understand...it's a confidence thing. Especially if that's you in your av.

 

[Gimlet]

You wouldn't understand...it's a confidence thing. Especially if that's you in your av.

You are so obstinate and oblivious that it's funny. I used to wish that you would eventually get bored with trolling on our forum and leave us alone, but now I want you to keep going. It's fun seeing you get your ass pwned up and down this board every time you make a post. The best part is that you don't even realize how ******ed you come off looking.

Definitely not me in the avatar...it's from a TV show. In fact, the name of the show is written ON my av, smart guy.

 

[Misterioso]

You are so obstinate and oblivious that it's funny. I used to wish that you would eventually get bored with trolling on our forum and leave us alone, but now I want you to keep going. It's fun seeing you get your ass pwned up and down this board every time you make a post. The best part is that you don't even realize how ******ed you come off looking.

As I said, you wouldn't understand. I discuss the issues rationally and calmly while you've been attacking me with nothing but immature insults all along.

 

[Gimlet]

As I said, you wouldn't understand. I discuss the issues rationally and calmly while you've been attacking me with nothing but immature insults all along.

Not true...this is the first thread in which I have actually engaged in a conversation with you. The only other time we have had a run in was when I pointed out your hypocrisy in accusing anesthesiologists of not being able to "hack it" in surgery when you yourself don't want to do half of what a surgeon does. You never responded to that post, by the way. 🙄

Another thing: Saying "you wouldn't understand" is not a rational discussion of the issues. You always seem to conveniently ignore the salient points of people's posts that you have no argument against and instead accuse them of "attacking you."

And how is your last post:

You wouldn't understand...it's a confidence thing. Especially if that's you in your av.

not an attack on me, however inept it may be?

 

[bigeyedfish]

You wouldn't understand...it's a confidence thing. Especially if that's you in your av.

I've read some of your posts and I don't get it either. I've never considered myself to have a problem with confidence and I enjoy being nice to people.

Are you saying that acting like a dick is how you generate your confidence and sense of self? Because that is whack, yo. I hope I never work with you. If I'd wanted to be around personality disorders I'd have gone into psych.

 

[Misterioso]

Not true...this is the first thread in which I have actually engaged in a conversation with you.

Who said anything about "engaged in a conversation". You've attacked me in other threads when I was discussing with other people.

You never responded to that post, by the way. 🙄

What was there to respond to? The fact that somebody makes it as a surgeon already proves he can hack it. It's irrelevent as to the cases he chooses to perform.

Another thing: Saying "you wouldn't understand" is not a rational discussion of the issues. You always seem to conveniently ignore the salient points of people's posts that you have no argument against and instead accuse them of "attacking you."

Incorrect

 

[Misterioso]

Are you saying that acting like a dick is how you generate your confidence and sense of self?

No

 

[hokie]

A little off topic here but still somewhat in the same vein...how early do groups start seeking out doctors who will be graduating from their residencies in July? Could a CA-3 expect to have a job many months in advance of his/her residency ending, or does it happen a lot closer to the end?

Most folks in my residency crew had jobs lined up by November.. as of now I think only 2 (out of 15) are not sure where they are going.

UT I experienced a little of what you are talking about... after interviewing for and subsequently turning down a job offer, one of the partners of that group called to ask me about one of my classmates... I of course had only nice things to say (and no reason to say anything bad) but he told me that my classmate had been called lazy by one of his references.
This has led me to try and impress upon the junior residents how important their work ethic (and attitude) can be later on. Although I think this should be obvious some people just don't realize how much a negative attitude can affect their evaluations...

 

[militarymd]

Being called "lazy" is the kiss of death in private practice.

 

[Noyac]

.

The fact that somebody makes it as a surgeon already proves he can hack it. It's irrelevent as to the cases he chooses to perform.



A new high in dumb things said on this forum.

 

[ThinkFast007]

after interviewing for and subsequently turning down a job offer, one of the partners of that group called to ask me about one of my classmates... I of course had only nice things to say (and no reason to say anything bad) but he told me that my classmate had been called lazy by one of his references.
......

man, that's real unprofessional. I cant believe that a program that you turned down, then calls you to ask you about a classmate of yours. Granted, you said ncie things...but i mean suppose you were a A$$hole you could have totally made up some BS.

it's unfortunate.

 

[Noyac]

After having wasted an evening reviewing candidates to hire, I want to again emphasize to current and future residents that the easiest way to submarine your chances at a good job (and waste people's time reviewing your CV and interviewing you) is by being lazy, arrogant, and self-centered.

I had thought my group had found a great candidate from a great program on the east coast, only to have comments like "lazy, interested in only what's best for him, not a team player, arrogant, thinks he knows everything," etc. show up when speaking to his faculty.

YOU CANNOT JUST WORK HARD PART OF THE TIME. It will come out at some point and you will just screw your chances of getting a good position.

Really sorry to see that the prospects are so dismal, UT. I'm curious as to your thoughts on one of these negative verbal references. I feel like it takes 2-3 (maybe even more) really good verbal ref's to make up for one bad one. I acknowledge that we can't all get along and that some attendings can hold a grudge for far too long. But its true that one of these ref's can kill your chances with a group especially if there are other applicants. So UT, my question is, did this ref kill his/her chances or was there more to it ( I know it would have very well killed the app's chances in my group as well)? And did the app use this reference as a contact? If so, that would eliminate his/her chances in my opinion. The app would either be totally out of touch or the comments would be dead on b/c they couldn't come up with enough ref's that thought highly of him/her.

 

[Misterioso]

Being called "lazy" is the kiss of death in private practice.

Even in anesthesiology?

No offense, but anesthesiologists are always going on about how they don't like to work hard and that's one reason they chose anesthesiology.

 

[hokie]

man, that's real unprofessional. I cant believe that a program that you turned down, then calls you to ask you about a classmate of yours. Granted, you said ncie things...but i mean suppose you were a A$$hole you could have totally made up some BS.

it's unfortunate.

I guess I could have but the I think he really just wanted my opinion... (we had previously talked for hours and had a lot of common interests). Plus he knew that I had nothing to gain by bad-mouthing the guy.
One of the things I learned on the interview trail was that while people liked hearing about my experience with the newest regional anes. techniques, my skill with echo, and my overall case numbers, what impressed them the most was my references (I told them they could call any of the faculty). They really want to know how well you will work with their team, how hard you will work, how you will respond to criticism, etc. Showing this from day one in residency will take you a long way, even if you don't get the top score on your in-training exam.

 

[militarymd]

Even in anesthesiology?

No offense, but anesthesiologists are always going on about how they don't like to work hard and that's one reason they chose anesthesiology.

I was withholding judgement, but I guess everyone is right....you don't have a clue.

 

[Misterioso]

I was withholding judgement, but I guess everyone is right....you don't have a clue.

I've read numerous times on here and other forums by anesthesiologists and anesthesiology wannabes that one major reason they picked the specialty was because they didn't want to work hard. Isn't that one of the draws of anesthesiology: that it's a life style specialty?

 

[militarymd]

I've read numerous times on here and other forums by anesthesiologists and anesthesiology wannabes that one major reason they picked the specialty was because they didn't want to work hard. Isn't that one of the draws of anesthesiology: that it's a life style specialty?

I know your type. I would have enjoyed having you on my ICU team...watching you squirm during rounds..perhaps making you cry..as I've done with a couple of surgery types that I've eaten for breakfast while my surgery co-attendings watched and laughed.

Search and read my posts..... Boy.

 

[ThinkFast007]

... Isn't that one of the draws of anesthesiology: that it's a life style specialty?

absolutely. Lifestyle is a perk in anesthesiology.

However, lifestyle does not equal being LAZY. i think most of us refer to lifestyle in the sense that we do not have f/u, will have adequate time for our family and loved ones, and really have time to do 'fun stuff' outside the hosp. By no means, do i want ot go into anesthesiology cuz i'm 'lazy'. Dude, the stuff is hard work. Sure, ALL you see when you peep over the drape is teh anesthesiologist kicking back. what you dont see is all the preventative measures he/she took to be at that stage. nor do you realize that the anesthesiologist is /should be ready w/ a list full of DDx's just incase the $hit hits the fan.

Dude, misterio. Everyone's got a job. you may/may not become a great surgeon. invariably, when a pt is in a mess and it's becuase you knicked the aorta, or knicked a artery or did something accidentally, you will definitely wish/pray that that person behind those drapes really has a clue as to what they're doing.

even though i'm a MSiv...i've seen this scernario twice during my surgery rotation.

everyone's got a place...my question is..what's your plcae in the anesthesiology forum? Why are you here bro? second thoughts? you know, there are plenty of former surgeons that are anesthesiologists that are on this forum. Regardless, I think intraoperatively, it's a team effort b/w the anesthesiologist and the surgeon to mk sure everything goes smoothly. Man, let's work together . It'll benefit you and ME 😉

 

[jetproppilot]

I know your type. I would have enjoyed having you on my ICU team...watching you squirm during rounds..perhaps making you cry..as I've done with a couple of surgery types that I've eaten for breakfast while my surgery co-attendings watched and laughed.

Search and read my posts..... Boy.

Yeah, til now, you were amusing.

Now I recognize you must be short in stature...probably 5'9" or less....160 lbs...definitely has an inability to score chicks...and you see surgery as the "manly" thing to do, to replete your diminutive self esteem caused by your Napoleanic body habitus.

Its not too late, Slim.

Even short dudes can make good anesthesiologists.

 

[toughlife]

Yeah, til now, you were amusing.

Now I recognize you must be short in stature...probably 5'9" or less....160 lbs...definitely has an inability to score chicks...and you see surgery as the "manly" thing to do, to replete your diminutive self esteem caused by your Napoleanic body habitus.

Its not too late, Slim.

Even short dudes can make good anesthesiologists.

 

[UTSouthwestern]

Really sorry to see that the prospects are so dismal, UT. I'm curious as to your thoughts on one of these negative verbal references. I feel like it takes 2-3 (maybe even more) really good verbal ref's to make up for one bad one. I acknowledge that we can't all get along and that some attendings can hold a grudge for far too long. But its true that one of these ref's can kill your chances with a group especially if there are other applicants. So UT, my question is, did this ref kill his/her chances or was there more to it ( I know it would have very well killed the app's chances in my group as well)? And did the app use this reference as a contact? If so, that would eliminate his/her chances in my opinion. The app would either be totally out of touch or the comments would be dead on b/c they couldn't come up with enough ref's that thought highly of him/her.

The comments came from at least two references, one not listed by the applicant. As Jet said, the L word is the kiss of death. I can take arrogance/overconfidence so long as I see that the individual is hard working, but to be arrogant AND lazy is an unbelievably bad combination.


Regarding the question about when groups look for candidates, it can really vary. If a group routinely suffers from attrition or has the benefit of knowing that their business will expand for sure the next year, they can certainly start looking for candidates early in the fall. I would hazard to guess that most groups don't want to take on new people on a "hunch" that business will grow, thus many wait until the late fall through the spring to find candidates. It's a risk either way. We decided to do the latter to avoid hiring someone who would then be sitting on his or her fanny waiting for work.

Edit: Also, regarding a group asking a candidate about another candidate, I don't find this to be an unreasonable thing to do, especially in the situation listed earlier. It is an opportunity to get as many views of a person that you hope will become a long time partner in your business. You need that information and the diligent groups dig for it to hopefully prevent the need to fire someone in the partnership track because of what they failed to discover.

 

[Laryngospasm]

Yeah, til now, you were amusing.

Now I recognize you must be short in stature...probably 5'9" or less....160 lbs...definitely has an inability to score chicks...and you see surgery as the "manly" thing to do, to replete your diminutive self esteem caused by your Napoleanic body habitus.

Its not too late, Slim.

Even short dudes can make good anesthesiologists.

Good call jetprop, criminal profiler, you left out a few things however, like the fact that this individual is highly likely to end up on the top of a tall structure, with a very large caliber, high velocity weapon, which in all reality will probably break his shoulder and give him a black eye when he attempts to fire it at some poor unsuspecting physician who made him/her cry on rounds. Careful how far you push, weve all seen the video to Jeremy.

 

[UTSouthwestern]

I know your type. I would have enjoyed having you on my ICU team...watching you squirm during rounds..perhaps making you cry..as I've done with a couple of surgery types that I've eaten for breakfast while my surgery co-attendings watched and laughed.

Search and read my posts..... Boy.

I almost busted a gut reading that Mil. Don't do that when I'm eating.

 

[Misterioso]

I know your type. I would have enjoyed having you on my ICU team...watching you squirm during rounds..perhaps making you cry..as I've done with a couple of surgery types that I've eaten for breakfast while my surgery co-attendings watched and laughed.

Search and read my posts..... Boy.

Why the hostility? My question was valid. Anesthesiology is known as a life style specialty and many anesthesiologists and anesthesiology wannabes have discussed one major reason they pick it is because they don't have to work hard. It is known as one of the R.O.A.D specialties: Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology. Notice none of these specialities is known for working hard.

 

[Misterioso]

Yeah, til now, you were amusing.

Now I recognize you must be short in stature...probably 5'9" or less....160 lbs...definitely has an inability to score chicks...and you see surgery as the "manly" thing to do, to replete your diminutive self esteem caused by your Napoleanic body habitus.

Its not too late, Slim.

Even short dudes can make good anesthesiologists.

You're projecting. I'm very handsome and of above-average height and weight. As a matter of fact I stole an anesthesiology resident's girlfriend earlier in the year.

 

[supahfresh]

I'm very handsome and of above-average height and weight. As a matter of fact I stole an anesthesiology resident's girlfriend earlier in the year.

above average weight?

 

[Misterioso]

above average weight?

Yes, extra lean muscle mass puts one above average weight for a given height. That's why BMI is not always a good indicator of fitness.

 

[Misterioso]

Search and read my posts..... Boy.

Even though you are from the south, racism like that is heavily looked down upon in other parts of the country.

 

[Trisomy13]

*yawn*

 

[drRumi]

Even though you are from the south, racism like that is heavily looked down upon in other parts of the country.

im curious, why are you here?

this is the "lazy" forum. we “lazy” people have no need to be validated by what profession we have chosen. what you are looking for is down the hall, the "i have nothing else in life to validate my life, therefore i NEED to be a surgeon to get any respect in life" forum. is that calm and collected enough for you?

 

[ThinkFast007]

i say we just ignore Misterio's comments from now on.

poof..they dont even exist.

 

[jetproppilot]

Even though you are from the south, racism like that is heavily looked down upon in other parts of the country.

Racism from a minority??

 

[FlindersGrad]

Racism from a minority??

Not that I think there were any racist comments made, but why can't racist attitudes come from a minority? The concept is not uniquely majority based. Anyone, no matter what their race is can be capable of racist actions.

 

[deleted50478]

Not that I think there were any racist comments made, but why can't racist attitudes come from a minority? The concept is not uniquely majority based. Anyone, no matter what their race is can be capable of racist actions.

It's funny this should come up minutes after I left a room in which a black mother and daughter who were both kind and polite were talking right in front of me about how unacceptable it is for a white man and black woman to get together. I think minorities (those ladies, Nagin, etc.) are allowed to get away with being racist while whitey would be considered racist for totally benign comments that could possibly be misinterpreted as racist. Anyway, I agree with FlindersGrad and % population has nothing to do with racism. I also think that north-south has nothing to do with it, and that racism rates aren't as different in different areas as some are led to believe.

 

[Soon2BENT]

Why the hostility? My question was valid. Anesthesiology is known as a life style specialty and many anesthesiologists and anesthesiology wannabes have discussed one major reason they pick it is because they don't have to work hard. It is known as one of the R.O.A.D specialties: Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology. Notice none of these specialities is known for working hard.

First of all, it depends on what is meant by "working hard". Working "long" and working "hard" are two totally different things. I think all fields work hard, but they just may not work long.

 

[jetproppilot]

Not that I think there were any racist comments made, but why can't racist attitudes come from a minority? The concept is not uniquely majority based. Anyone, no matter what their race is can be capable of racist actions.

Yeah, youre right.

What I shouldve said instead is, I'm sure Mil's comments arent racially motivated. Rather, they are motivated by the fact that he thinks youre a punk.