Words of caution for career changers

[jazzmetal]

Lost me at 2 graduate degrees.

Why? Serious question, as a soon-to-be applicant with two graduate degrees.

I used both degrees for a long time in my first career. I'm now looking to change into medicine, another learned profession. I see my educational background as giving me a great perspective on the process and purpose of professional training, and as evidence that I'm looking for intellectually challenging work. Running out of things to learn in my current career is one reason (among many) for deciding to change direction.

I'm guessing that OP might have gotten a different reaction had he said "earned an MS and PhD" rather than "did graduate degrees (x2) at top schools," especially if that PhD was in a science. Fair assumption? I mean, adcoms don't really just toss all applicants with previous degrees into the "degree collector" waste bin - I hope?

OP - sorry this cycle has been a bust for you. Rejection sucks. If this thread gives me insight on how to pitch myself better, then you've achieved your goal of helping at least one other non-trad, so thanks for posting.

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[piii]

OP is too good for DO, but not good enough for MD, apparently.

 

[LizzyM]

Why? Serious question, as a soon-to-be applicant with two graduate degrees.

I used both degrees for a long time in my first career. I'm now looking to change into medicine, another learned profession. I see my educational background as giving me a great perspective on the process and purpose of professional training, and as evidence that I'm looking for intellectually challenging work. Running out of things to learn in my current career is one reason (among many) for deciding to change direction.

I'm guessing that OP might have gotten a different reaction had he said "earned an MS and PhD" rather than "did graduate degrees (x2) at top schools," especially if that PhD was in a science. Fair assumption? I mean, adcoms don't really just toss all applicants with previous degrees into the "degree collector" waste bin - I hope?

OP - sorry this cycle has been a bust for you. Rejection sucks. If this thread gives me insight on how to pitch myself better, then you've achieved your goal of helping at least one other non-trad, so thanks for posting.

If someone actually had a career and wants to make a change, that's one thing... how the OP put it, it seemed like two different degrees and no career in between or after is a horse of a different color.

 

[Goro]

There are people out there who are professional students. "Degree collectors" was one colleague's comment about them. We avoid them.

Why? Serious question, as a soon-to-be applicant with two graduate degrees.
.

If someone actually had a career and wants to make a change, that's one thing... how the OP put it, it seemed like two different degrees and no career in between or after is a horse of a different color.

 

[jazzmetal]

There are people out there who are professional students. "Degree collectors" was one colleague's comment about them. We avoid them.

Yes, that makes perfect sense.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

You said it was trolling, but I'm still going to answer you, because I think this notion deserves a thorough and thoughtful answer. Although I'm about to school you, please understand that it is without animosity. My intent is not to argue, but to educate.

I'm taking a lifetime paycut to be a family med doc as compared to continuing in my previous career. Not only am I incurring a quarter million of debt, and half a million of lost opportunity costs, but the average salary that I could expect is not significantly higher than I could have earned working about as a many hours a year doing travel OR nursing. (Incidentally, while that work can be very intense in the moment, it is usually very pleasant, predictable, and reasonably low stress work, especially as compared to the responsibility held by physicians. Also, it is a gig where one can generally clock out at a predictable time and be really free of any further thought or responsibility, unlike being someone's doctor.)

You can't look only at the income side of medicine to determine whether it is a high paying career. You have to also consider the ongoing expenses, as well as the invested capital and the opportunity costs. Those reimbursements aren't going right into a physician's pocket. There is overhead and staff to pay for private practice docs, and employed physicians may find that they have to see more patients (and thus shortchange more of them with rapid appointments) in order to meet productivity goals.

Doctors are just NOT where the expense in medical care comes from. Most of the increase in costs are attributable to bloated administration and predatory pricing of medical technology/pharms/devices. ($250 for a foam pillow that would cost 10% as much at full retail, if it weren't being marketed as a medical device, etc. The examples are too numerous to name.) We are, however, an easy target for cost cutting because of perceptions like yours, that we are somehow overpaid and money motivated.

All valid, but not what I was trolling about. I was saying that volunteering hours were supposed to show greater capacity for self-sacrifice in service of others, and were working as an effective screen. If that were so, you wouldn't have so many doctors opting out based on reimbursement rates. I'm not saying they are taking the highest-profit route in life, but I'm also not going to believe that many are just breaking even after all the line items you mention. But hey, I like that you mention opportunity costs. Always good to see someone else spent time in an econ department.

If someone actually had a career and wants to make a change, that's one thing... how the OP put it, it seemed like two different degrees and no career in between or after is a horse of a different color.

Apologies that this is still unclear, I thought that I had mentioned before that they were connected, and included employment in the field. There really was no change before this.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

All valid, but not what I was trolling about. I was saying that volunteering hours were supposed to show greater capacity for self-sacrifice in service of others, and were working as an effective screen. If that were so, you wouldn't have so many doctors opting out based on reimbursement rates. I'm not saying they are taking the highest-profit route in life, but I'm also not going to believe that many are just breaking even after all the line items you mention. But hey, I like that you mention opportunity costs. Always good to see someone else spent time in an econ department.



Apologies that this is still unclear, I thought that I had mentioned before that they were connected, and included employment in the field. There really was no change before this.

Doctors aren't necessarily breaking even, but you're saying that because people who have an important and in demand skill set don't want to get paid less for more work, that there's no altruism there? Wanting to make a good living because you contribute to society doesn't preclude you from being altruistic.

 

[Ad2b]

thread took a turn so let's be honest:

pharma charging excessive fees for drugs when R&D can be mostly written off reducing the revenue/increasing the expense and overall reducing the NET I on which taxes are paid + insurance companies excessively charging for insurance and then not paying = broken healthcare system NOT PCP doctors.

I know my doc drives a Suburu but the CEO/CFO/CIO/CISO/Dirs of my former insurance company all drive AT LEAST an S class... or Porsche ...

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

Doctors aren't necessarily breaking even, but you're saying that because people who have an important and in demand skill set don't want to get paid less for more work, that there's no altruism there? Wanting to make a good living because you contribute to society doesn't preclude you from being altruistic.

A typical medical student will spend their 20's eating ramen noodles, racking up debt, studying 24/7, etc. Meanwhile, their buddies are graduating, getting jobs, buying nice TV's, homes, etc. I am pretty sure most medical students understand the hardships that lie ahead and have no one to blame but themselves. But upon graduation, residency completion, and landing an attending physician job, I would say that person most definitely deserves proper compensation. It is simple economics that they have invested an intangible good (time) to learn complex material that someone cannot be trained to do in several months. People do not understand the value that training time has. Many people would love to be doctors but simply pass on the field due to the time commitment. It isn't an issue of altruism as much as it is simple economics. Imagine if all of the sudden doctor's salaries got reduced to a nurse practitioners salary. Doctors would disappear, no one would go to medical school, and your healthcare providers would not have near the educational training. This isn't necessarily because doctors are greedy and evil. Economically speaking, it would be senseless to spend the extra time and money to only earn the nurse practitioner salary with the education of an E.R. doctor. I could provide my altruistic gift to society by taking the minimal education route. So for the sake of good healthcare, people should be perfectly fine with doctors making a good living.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A typical medical student will spend their 20's eating ramen noodles, racking up debt, studying 24/7, etc. Meanwhile, their buddies are graduating, getting jobs, buying nice TV's, homes, etc. I am pretty sure most medical students understand the hardships that lie ahead and have no one to blame but themselves. But upon graduation, residency completion, and landing an attending physician job, I would say that person most definitely deserves proper compensation. It is simple economics that they have invested an intangible good (time) to learn complex material that someone cannot be trained to do in several months. People do not understand the value that training time has. Many people would love to be doctors but simply pass on the field due to the time commitment. It isn't an issue of altruism as much as it is simple economics. Imagine if all of the sudden doctor's salaries got reduced to a nurse practitioners salary. Doctors would disappear, no one would go to medical school, and your healthcare providers would not have near the educational training. This isn't necessarily because doctors are greedy and evil. Economically speaking, it would be senseless to spend the extra time and money to only earn the nurse practitioner salary with the education of an E.R. doctor. I could provide my altruistic gift to society by taking the minimal education route. So for the sake of good healthcare, people should be perfectly fine with doctors making a good living.

Agreed. I think that many of the people who say doctors are overpaid probably don't understand what goes into medical training. Sure, they might know that it's a lot of school, but they don't know what it actually entails or what residency is. How many ridiculously long exams it takes, how many courses and credits go into it, anatomy lab, clinicals, the absurdly long hours, being gone from your family, the no pay that turns into low pay accompanied by massive debt for most... That doesn't take into account the effect on your person that comes from seeing all kinds of ****ty things.

They think it's a bunch of rich kids leisurely learning how to scam poor people out of their copays.

 

[Ad2b]

They think it's a bunch of rich kids leisurely learning how to scam poor people out of their copays.

That is the crux of the issue. PCPs are not the ones who get that copay - the hospital/clinic does to pay the overhead. Docs get paid by the insurance company which tries to use every ICD-10 code possible to deny a claim.

 

[Weirdy]

thread took a turn so let's be honest:

pharma charging excessive fees for drugs when R&D can be mostly written off reducing the revenue/increasing the expense and overall reducing the NET I on which taxes are paid + insurance companies excessively charging for insurance and then not paying = broken healthcare system NOT PCP doctors.

I know my doc drives a Suburu but the CEO/CFO/CIO/CISO/Dirs of my former insurance company all drive AT LEAST an S class... or Porsche ...

Private jet bruh

 

[Ad2b]

Private jet bruh

UHG has more than one of them as does AETNA, etc. (and I'm a mom not a bruh)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

thread took a turn so let's be honest:

pharma charging excessive fees for drugs when R&D can be mostly written off reducing the revenue/increasing the expense and overall reducing the NET I on which taxes are paid + insurance companies excessively charging for insurance and then not paying = broken healthcare system NOT PCP doctors.

I know my doc drives a Suburu but the CEO/CFO/CIO/CISO/Dirs of my former insurance company all drive AT LEAST an S class... or Porsche ...

Yes. If you ask pretty much any PCP, they will side with you that "BigPharma" is out of control (the business/marketing end). Every doctor I had as a civilian was constantly trying to give me generics or free samples whenever they could to save me money. Docs aren't depending on your copay to survive. They need patients, but that doesn't mean they need you to be sick or spending tons of money on drugs.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

UHG has more than one of them as does AETNA, etc. (and I'm a mom not a bruh)

I think weirdy was being satirical.

 

[Ad2b]

Yes. If you ask pretty much any PCP, they will side with you that "BigPharma" is out of control (the business/marketing end)

I took a few big pharma public... what I speak of comes from reviewing, digesting, filing SEC documents on their behalf, not doctors telling me a thing.

I think weirdy was being satirical.

probably but I was being honest - people do not have a clue how much those companies spend on "private" transportation that does not fly out of "normal" airports... it's kind of disgusting on so many levels.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I took a few big pharma public... what I speak of comes from reviewing, digesting, filing SEC documents on their behalf, not doctors telling me a thing.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. The "you" was referring to the general public. Sorry for the confusion.

probably but I was being honest - people do not have a clue how much those companies spend on "private" transportation that does not fly out of "normal" airports... it's kind of disgusting on so many levels.

Don't disagree with you.

 

[Goro]

I have no problem with clinicians earning the salaries that they do. However, I would prefer to think that you are handsomely compensated because of the skills you have to save and mend human lives, not because you went to school forever and are deeply in debt.

100% admit that it takes a long time to earn said skills!

A typical medical student will spend their 20's eating ramen noodles, racking up debt, studying 24/7, etc. Meanwhile, their buddies are graduating, getting jobs, buying nice TV's, homes, etc. I am pretty sure most medical students understand the hardships that lie ahead and have no one to blame but themselves. But upon graduation, residency completion, and landing an attending physician job, I would say that person most definitely deserves proper compensation. It is simple economics that they have invested an intangible good (time) to learn complex material that someone cannot be trained to do in several months. People do not understand the value that training time has. Many people would love to be doctors but simply pass on the field due to the time commitment. It isn't an issue of altruism as much as it is simple economics. Imagine if all of the sudden doctor's salaries got reduced to a nurse practitioners salary. Doctors would disappear, no one would go to medical school, and your healthcare providers would not have near the educational training. This isn't necessarily because doctors are greedy and evil. Economically speaking, it would be senseless to spend the extra time and money to only earn the nurse practitioner salary with the education of an E.R. doctor. I could provide my altruistic gift to society by taking the minimal education route. So for the sake of good healthcare, people should be perfectly fine with doctors making a good living.

 

[libertyyne]

Agreed. I think that many of the people who say doctors are overpaid probably don't understand what goes into medical training. Sure, they might know that it's a lot of school, but they don't know what it actually entails or what residency is. How many ridiculously long exams it takes, how many courses and credits go into it, anatomy lab, clinicals, the absurdly long hours, being gone from your family, the no pay that turns into low pay accompanied by massive debt for most... That doesn't take into account the effect on your person that comes from seeing all kinds of ****ty things.

They think it's a bunch of rich kids leisurely learning how to scam poor people out of their copays.

Although I agree with you . I think k it's a little simple to ascribe higher earning to years of training. PhDs lawyers go through long and arduous training processes as well yet do not get compensated at that level.

 

[IlDestriero]

: don't quit a ****ty job for the glimmer of hope you may do something "good" and "worthwhile."

That's all.

No, do it for the money player.

60% of applicants don't get in. Most of them have no place in medicine to begin with. Figure out what you need to improve and do so. Or go back to your ****ty job.

--
Il Destriero

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Although I agree with you . I think k it's a little simple to ascribe higher earning to years of training. PhDs lawyers go through long and arduous training processes as well yet do not get compensated at that level.

True about PhDs. Attorneys can make a ridiculous amount of money for four years of undergrad and three years of professional school.

 

[IlDestriero]

I just paid one a retainer of $3400 to review my interests in a property. His hourly rate exceeds mine, and I do pretty well.


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Il Destriero

 

[Dr.Sticks]

There are people out there who are professional students. "Degree collectors" was one colleague's comment about them. We avoid them.

Why?
What turns adcoms off about those kind of people?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Why?
What turns adcoms off about those kind of people?

Indecisive, trying to avoid the real world, etc.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Indecisive, trying to avoid the real world, etc.

What if they had a job during the entire time, and were active volunteers in their community, and leaders?

 

[Goro]

We want people who will actually go and practice Medicine.

Why?
What turns adcoms off about those kind of people?

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

I have no problem with clinicians earning the salaries that they do. However, I would prefer to think that you are handsomely compensated because of the skills you have to save and mend human lives, not because you went to school forever and are deeply in debt.

100% admit that it takes a long time to earn said skills!

For sure. But from an economical point of view, the incentive in a career in medicine is that you can make enough money to pay off your debt (eventually) and live rather comfortably. Therefore you sacrifice your time now to live financially better later If you eliminated the high financial compensation, logic would ensue that those seeking that career path would greatly decreases due to the lack of income to debt. But yes, doctors deserve their salary based on the type of skill and service they provide for the public. People try to say things like "Well doctors are important, but so is everyone else in the hospital and it takes all jobs to keep the place going". True statement. However, I could train a skilled surgeon to do the job of a janitor, secretary, CNA, nurse, etc, in a much quicker time frame than I could train any of them to become a skilled surgeon. That is where time invested is a very valuable aspect to consider and most people let this slip out the window.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

We want people who will actually go and practice Medicine.

With all due politeness, I do not think that my desire to change paths warranted your skepticism. If anything, it reinforced my thinking that I was right to do the PhD route than gamble on winning the good favor of adcoms.

I think you are likely a decent fellow, but casting judgment with the "a good med student looks like this:" when so many such med students predictably end up focusing on family medicine/radiology/whatever, disinclines me to think you are filtering out the lifestyle docs.

And yes, I'M BACK!

 

[Goro]

Come back in a few years and let us know how it works out.

With all due politeness, I do not think that my desire to change paths warranted your skepticism. If anything, it reinforced my thinking that I was right to do the PhD route than gamble on winning the good favor of adcoms.

I think you are likely a decent fellow, but casting judgment with the "a good med student looks like this:" but ends up focusing on family medicine/radiology/whatever disinclines me to think you are filtering out the lifestyle docs.

And yes, I'M BACK!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What if they had a job during the entire time, and were active volunteers in their community, and leaders?

Personally, I don't that mitigates the question of "why medicine? No really, why medicine now after you've jumped around so much?" I worked 100 hour weeks while getting my degree (in math), have tons of volunteering and leadership, but I changed majors a few times and have pubs in non-science fields etc. I fully expect to be asked why medicine when I have demonstrated interest in other fields, and I have a good answer.

Granted, I think it would be more difficult if I had actually gotten other degrees, like an MS in one thing or a JD. But that's kind of the point.

 

[bears1992]

With all due politeness, I do not think that my desire to change paths warranted your skepticism. If anything, it reinforced my thinking that I was right to do the PhD route than gamble on winning the good favor of adcoms.

I think you are likely a decent fellow, but casting judgment with the "a good med student looks like this:" when so many such med students predictably end up focusing on family medicine/radiology/whatever, disinclines me to think you are filtering out the lifestyle docs.

And yes, I'M BACK!

His view as an adcom, judgemental or not, is how the majority of adcoms would view your application. I don't understand why users get frustrated at Goro for giving his opinion because agree with him or not, he is telling you how your app would be viewed by him and his colleagues which matters more than how a premed like me would view it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

His view as an adcom, judgemental or not, is how the majority of adcoms would view your application. I don't understand why users get frustrated at Goro for giving his opinion because agree with him or not, he is telling you how your app would be viewed by him and his colleagues which matters more than how a premed like me would view it.

It's called confirmation bias.

 

[libertyyne]

With all due politeness, I do not think that my desire to change paths warranted your skepticism. If anything, it reinforced my thinking that I was right to do the PhD route than gamble on winning the good favor of adcoms.

I think you are likely a decent fellow, but casting judgment with the "a good med student looks like this:" when so many such med students predictably end up focusing on family medicine/radiology/whatever, disinclines me to think you are filtering out the lifestyle docs.

And yes, I'M BACK!

 

[JB50]

This thread has been entertaining.

 

[•Syzygy•]

this is the best thing

 

[altblue]

Quality gravedig lol. I think there was an older nontrad here who had an ego - constantly bragged about how attractive and intellectually gifted she was. She did get in tho

What's up with OP's weird account status?

 

[Goro]

Quality gravedig lol. I think there was an older nontrad here who had an ego - constantly bragged about how attractive and intellectually gifted she was. She did get in tho

What's up with OP's weird account status?

I guess they withdrew/cancelled their account? Either that, or an imperfect Banhammer smack. The OP was a loose cannon, after all.