Worst Mass Shooting in U.S. History

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I've been in and out of this thread but like to see (for the most part) an educated discussion on the political issues we are facing in this country. As a minority physician who lived in the south and midwest, I've come across my own experience of being racially profiled and discrimination. I've also had a lot of great experiences with the "majority;" teachers and mentors who have helped me reach my path so I know there is a wide range of diversity and tolerance that exists in our country. My thing is that we can not seriously believe that there isn't a racial/ethnic/cultural divide in our country and that more African American males are not proportionally being killed by police officers. I'm also curious as to why the Dallas incident wasn't considered an act of terrorism. If the guy had a hint of being a Muslim, it wouldn't even be a question. I also think all mass shootings should be considered "acts of terrorism" and should not just be based on a person's religion but on their actions.

I honestly don't have a solution to the problem but it can't be more bigotry and hate... Just my 2 cents.

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My thing is that we can not seriously believe... that more African American males are not proportionally being killed by police officers.

The recently released National Bureau of Economic Research working paper on racial disparity in use of force by Harvard Economist Roland G. Fryer Jr would not support that conclusion.

From the NY Times article on the paper.

They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

-pod
 
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The media has a bias. If it doesn't attract readers like flypaper, it doesn't get published. Just because all the newspaper are full with crap doesn't mean crap is frequent.

As much as I am a libertarian, and I love the first amendment, there should be a law against sensationalist irresponsible journalism, especially when it leads to violence. Makes stupid people even dumber, and more difficult to control. There is no intelligent conversation to be had when people are quasi hysterical (see the Yale case) or disobeying authorities. It all becomes just a PC theater (because nobody wants to say the unpopular things everybody thinks), leading to the rise of extremists like Trump.
 
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The recently released National Bureau of Economic Research working paper on racial disparity in use of force by Harvard Economist Roland G. Fryer Jr would not support that conclusion.

From the NY Times article on the paper.





-pod

"The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces."

Good to see that minorities are just beaten more frequently by police vs. being shot. So basically, blame the victim for being dead.

One last point to be made... The "evidence" is based on reports and may not reflect what actually happened. A recent example of corruption is how both police body cameras were not used in the Baton Rouge killing. You don't have to empathize with the community or even care about racial inequality and injustice, but to claim that there's nothing wrong with our justice system is a plain and simple lie.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...black-americans-say-racism-persists-the-cops/
 
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The media has a bias. If it doesn't attract readers like flypaper, it doesn't get published. Just because all the newspaper are full with crap doesn't mean crap is frequent.

As much as I am a libertarian, and I love the first amendment, there should be a law against sensationalist irresponsible journalism, especially when it leads to violence. Makes stupid people even dumber, and more difficult to control. There is no intelligent conversation to be had when people are quasi hysterical (see the Yale case) or disobeying authorities. It all becomes just a PC theater (because nobody wants to say the unpopular things everybody thinks), leading to the rise of extremists like Trump.

First Bold
1000% agree. We all have to remember that the media is still a business and the more readers and watchers lead to more money. They all do whatever they can to get the most watchers/readers.

Second Bold
Nowadays you can get shot 6 times for obey police orders.
 
If the police stops you and you have a gun on you, that's the first thing you tell them, because they are poorly trained semi-amateurs (when about guns and street combat), and taught to shoot first ask questions later. If I had any weapon in the same area as my papers, I would ask the cop to remove them himself.

I always get my papers out, the moment the cop stops me, so I don't have to reach anywhere in his presence. And I keep my hands on the wheel, or in my lap, very visibly, all the time. Again, it's common sense: don't scare the lawman. I am a well-groomed white person driving a $20K clean car, and still I do it this way.

I am not saying the shooting in Baton Rouge was justified. I have no idea.
 
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If the police stops you and you have a gun on you, that's the first thing you tell them, because they are poorly trained semi-amateurs (when about guns and street combat), and taught to shoot first ask questions later. If I had any weapon in the same area as my papers, I would ask the cop to remove them himself.

I always get my papers out, the moment the cop stops me, so I don't have to reach anywhere. And I keep my hands on the wheel, or in my lap, very visibly, all the time.

All very true.

I'm unarmed and have to go through the same procedure.

So the question is who does America believe, the police or Philando Castile's girlfriend? I believe that's where you'll see a very "OJ Verdict - esque" division in the answers.

but as I say, it's not always about "just follow directions"...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ads-guilty-after-shooting-unarmed-man-n538411

at least this guy lived....
 
All very true.

I'm unarmed and have to go through the same procedure.

So the question is who does America believe, the police or Philando Castile's girlfriend? I believe that's where you'll see a very "OJ Verdict - esque" division in the answers.
That's why they need body cameras. And they need to be told: if your body camera was "not working", all the union protections you have as a policeman are nullified, including the fact that you get to be treated like any other suspect. Also, why not give policemen unarmed drones, to surveil a suspect car first? A small one costs only a few hundred bucks.

Another thing is that all law enforcement violent crimes should be automatically federal cases.
 
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The post article states that "black Americans were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the country’s 75 biggest counties — despite the fact that black Americans made up just 15 percent of the population in those places"

It goes on to parse the data that black americans are more 7 times more likely to be fatally shot in an encounter with police (but only 2 times more likely when adjusting for factors like whether they were assaulting the officer, age, mental illness etc). And because in those encounters the officers were not killed at a higher rate than with white suspects it concludes this shows a bias.

I would say of course it does. The police aren't robots. If 15% of the population is committing over half of the violent crimes they are going to be more suspicious, more nervous, more on-edge and fearful for their lives. No amount of training or body cams are going to change this. No study showing officers they are equally in danger from gunfights with black vs white suspects (which happen maybe 1 time in their career) is going to change their daily impression seeing black violent crimes 4x higher proportionally to their population.

Not to say individual cases shouldn't be thoroughly investigated, but things will never change until we get to the root of the problem.



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The post article states that "black Americans were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the country’s 75 biggest counties — despite the fact that black Americans made up just 15 percent of the population in those places"

It goes on to parse the data that black americans are more 7 times more likely to be fatally shot in an encounter with police (but only 2 times more likely when adjusting for factors like whether they were assaulting the officer, age, mental illness etc). And because in those encounters the officers were not killed at a higher rate than with white suspects it concludes this shows a bias.

I would say of course it does. The police aren't robots. If 15% of the population is committing over half of the violent crimes they are going to be more suspicious, more nervous, more on-edge and fearful for their lives. No amount of training or body cams are going to change this. No study showing officers they are equally in danger from gunfights with black vs white suspects (which happen maybe 1 time in their career) is going to change their daily impression seeing black violent crimes 4x higher proportionally to their population.

Not to say individual cases shouldn't be thoroughly investigated, but things will never change until we get to the root of the problem.



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Valid just so long as we can agree that "Crime" isn't the root .....it's more like the base of the tree. People don't just come out of the womb saying "I'm gonna be a crook." The root of the problems that plague the black community that lead to many of the problems in the black community run much deeper. Some the fault of our own community but some blame also lies with those outside our community. (Probably a different discussion for a different thread)
 
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Valid just so long as we can agree that "Crime" isn't the root .....it's more like the base of the tree. People don't just come out of the womb saying "I'm gonna be a crook." The root of the problems that plague the black community that lead to many of the problems in the black community run much deeper. Some the fault of our own community but some blame also lies with those outside our community. (Probably a different discussion for a different thread)
I agree. Any sensible person knows that our racist history and wealth-based power structure are responsible for the general socioeconomic position black people are currently in and always have been in. The problem is, while this history is incredibly important and undeniable, we seem to focus on making sure everyone gets it instead of focusing on changing it. A lot of people are idiots, and reflexively get offended and defensive when you bring up race as a reason for some inequality. Then the other side gets defensive and angry, and time and energy get wasted. Sometimes it gets dangerous.

Movements like BLM, when non-violent and focused on community improvement, can be game-changers. They need to get organized, get voting power, and get a lobby. I think they need leaders who say "everyone's welcome", and they don't get distracted and defensive in response to inevitable racism. Ignore Trump. Don't interrupt political rallies. Just focus on community cohesion, social support for needy families, and gaining political power. Instead of marching, set up a community wide voter registration drive. There are a lot of people out there protesting who could be mentoring at-risk kids or cleaning up neighborhoods. Maybe some of them already are.

It's not sexy and TMZ-worthy, so blowhards like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton probably won't be interested. In fact I'm sure both have made efforts at these kinds of things, but they then change the focus whenever racism pops up in newsworthy stories.

I have no business telling anyone in the black community how to do things (especially when they may already be trying to do them), but I wish leaders would spend less time convincing people of inequalities that reasonable people already know exist. Forget the noise that will ALWAYS be there. They need a leader who can keep it positive, and keep it open for everyone to get involved. (Personally I think Obama post-presidency would be a great voice and leader despite all the idiots who call him "divisive". The guy bends over backwards to be empathetic to even the stupidest views).

I think it's important to recognize injustices, but instead of trying to convince EVERYONE that they exist, focus on strengthening the position of the people affected.
 
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Valid just so long as we can agree that "Crime" isn't the root .....it's more like the base of the tree. People don't just come out of the womb saying "I'm gonna be a crook." The root of the problems that plague the black community that lead to many of the problems in the black community run much deeper. Some the fault of our own community but some blame also lies with those outside our community. (Probably a different discussion for a different thread)

Totally agree with you- crime is just a symptom of underlying problems. Much money and time needs to be spent to ensure:
- schools in poor/minority communities are improved and have more resources
- delinquent fathers are made to pay child support
- single mothers have more support and good affordable childcare
- perhaps most important easy access to birth control to reduce unwanted pregnancy
- fair sentencing guidelines so minorities aren't suffering more jail time for equal crimes
- cultural changes to value education more and other things less.

I personally think affirmative action is the wrong way to go as it reinforces societal biases but I guess thats another whole can of worms.


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Totally agree with you- crime is just a symptom of underlying problems. Much money and time needs to be spent to ensure:
- schools in poor/minority communities are improved and have more resources
- delinquent fathers are made to pay child support
- single mothers have more support and good affordable childcare
- perhaps most important easy access to birth control to reduce unwanted pregnancy
- fair sentencing guidelines so minorities aren't suffering more jail time for equal crimes
- cultural changes to value education more and other things less.

I personally think affirmative action is the wrong way to go as it reinforces societal biases but I guess thats another whole can of worms.


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You're hitting it on the head.
 
As a guy who grew up in Southside Queens during the Guiliani era, I can tell you from my own personal experiences with NYPD (physical and sexual assault, abuse in clear view of my parents, etc) there are cops on the force that shouldn't have a badge. One of my closest friends is on the job and he understands as growing up with similar experiences and now as an officer that:

His job his hard as ****. He gets a lot of heat from peeps in the community but he understands the frustration.

There needs to be accountability. The "blue wall" is real and IMO that foundation needs to be torn down. From my experiences, I could see where an officer was uncomfortable with the actions of their colleague, but nothing is ever said or done. The abuse of power needs to stop.

Their needs to be more community policing from a grassroots level. A presence needs to be there. To this day, at the end of the month, there is a ticket blitz to meet ticket quotas (they exist). Maybe informing the public about what they observe and ways to stop the infractions, I don't know, maybe.

My peoples in my hood need to stop doing dumb ****. Would interventions to get the young people involved help, maybe. Growing up, there was the PAL (police athletic league) during the summer, which including basketball and softball. Fun times. Maybe early intervention to prevent kids doing dumb **** may decrease the violent crime that we see happening.

I guess what I'm saying it's gonna take everyone to come up with solutions (myself included). I also ask people look up what the BLM movement is about and not what Fox News says. I fully support the police but I can't tolerate the lack of accountability and the flippant attitude they have at times when we have situations like we've experienced recently. Some of the things I read and hear about the BLM are what was said about MLK and other civil rights leaders of the 50s and 60s (food for thought). I really hope we can see change in my lifetime. I have faith in humanity


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As a guy who grew up in Southside Queens during the Guiliani era, I can tell you from my own personal experiences with NYPD (physical and sexual assault, abuse in clear view of my parents, etc) there are cops on the force that shouldn't have a badge. One of my closest friends is on the job and he understands as growing up with similar experiences and now as an officer that:

His job his hard as ****. He gets a lot of heat from peeps in the community but he understands the frustration.

There needs to be accountability. The "blue wall" is real and IMO that foundation needs to be torn down. From my experiences, I could see where an officer was uncomfortable with the actions of their colleague, but nothing is ever said or done. The abuse of power needs to stop.

Their needs to be more community policing from a grassroots level. A presence needs to be there. To this day, at the end of the month, there is a ticket blitz to meet ticket quotas (they exist). Maybe informing the public about what they observe and ways to stop the infractions, I don't know, maybe.

My peoples in my hood need to stop doing dumb ****. Would interventions to get the young people involved help, maybe. Growing up, there was the PAL (police athletic league) during the summer, which including basketball and softball. Fun times. Maybe early intervention to prevent kids doing dumb **** may decrease the violent crime that we see happening.

I guess what I'm saying it's gonna take everyone to come up with solutions (myself included). I also ask people look up what the BLM movement is about and not what Fox News says. I fully support the police but I can't tolerate the lack of accountability and the flippant attitude they have at times when we have situations like we've experienced recently. Some of the things I read and hear about the BLM are what was said about MLK and other civil rights leaders of the 50s and 60s (food for thought). I really hope we can see change in my lifetime. I have faith in humanity


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The problem is that I've tried to look into what BLM is about and I (and many) don't understand, which is a fundamental problem I think. A movement needs concrete ideas on which to act - ie laws and specific operating guidelines for policing that need to be changed.

The civil rights movement had specific goals - school integration, outlawing institutional discrimination, voting rights etc.

The ideas I hear out of BLM are nebulous and extremely poorly thought out (defund police departments really?) or jumping to judgement on viral video clips, some of which end up being egregious police misconduct, others very debatable after actual real investigation.

I agree that there are definitely some cops that should not be wearing a badge (as there are terrible people in every profession) but not necessarily even all the ones from the BLM "poster cases." However, BLM has to think about the actual magnitude of the problem and what CONCRETE policies could be corrected (if any) and how many black lives they would save. Because the ideas so far have certainly ended more black lives than saved. In addition changing police "culture" is nearly impossible- as I pointed out above it's human nature to form bias based on experience.


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Obama will address the country today and discuss how we can avoid a Nice terrorist attack. Details leaked:

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BAN ERGONOMIC GRIP STEERING WHEELS
BAN TACTICAL LEATHER INTERIORS
BAN HIGH-VELOCITY VEHICLES
BAN HIGH-CAPACITY GAS TANKS

Unfortunately, Obama will leave out a ban on high cylinder trucks, such as any engine over 6 cylinders, because who seriously has a need for eight or even twelve cylinders?

The more cylinders you have, the more death you can deliver.

I hope he recommends universal background checks and mandatory 3 day waiting periods for truck rentals and purchases.
 
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Obama will address the country today and discuss how we can avoid a Nice terrorist attack. Details leaked:

BAN FULLY AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS
BAN ERGONOMIC GRIP STEERING WHEELS
BAN TACTICAL LEATHER INTERIORS
BAN HIGH-VELOCITY VEHICLES
BAN HIGH-CAPACITY GAS TANKS










Unfortunately, Obama will leave out a ban on high cylinder trucks, such as any engine over 6 cylinders, because who seriously has a need for eight or even twelve cylinders?

The more cylinders you have, the more death you can deliver.





Really?
 
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Dude, it's 2016.

We need to focus on what can be done to prevent the next mass trucking.


Your class and empathy, or rather lack of is astounding.
 
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Your class and empathy, or rather lack of is astounding.
Remember when Obama danced on the graves of the people killed in San Bernardino and Orlando because it gave him an opportunity to blame guns and push his gun control agenda?

You have a short memory.
 
Remember when Obama danced on the graves of the people killed in San Bernardino and Orlando because it gave him an opportunity to blame guns and push his gun control agenda?

You have a short memory.
No, there is a difference between discussing a problem and suggesting solutions and just being a di#k.
 
No, there is a difference between discussing a problem and suggesting solutions and just being a di#k.

No, Obama actually had the gall to call for gun control before the bodies were cold. Before it was discovered to be a terrorist attack. And before the terrorists were killed.

That was classless to the extreme.
 
3 officers dead in baton rouge, will Obama blame guns again like he did in Dallas?
 
Maybe Donald Trump will propose including bullets in the legal definition of speech. But only white bullets.. black, Mexican, and Muslim bullets obviously won't count.

Don't forget gay bullets.
 
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I am curious as to what some of the hardcore 2nd Amendment proponents have to say about the recent violence against police officers. From the shooter's perspective, he might claim he's fighting back against the government.
 
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"."
Good to see that minorities are just beaten more frequently by police vs. being shot. So basically, blame the victim for being dead.

People aren't protesting, rioting, and murdering police over inequities in non-lethal interactions. They are protesting, rioting, and murdering police over a lie that is being repeated again and again and again by the press, our leaders, and the president that innocent black men are being shot and killed by police in a racially inequitable manner.

To make it even worse, when the original narrative is proven to be demonstrably false i.e. "hands up don't shoot," they never come out to admit they were mistaken, they just move on to the next lie.

And yes, if I point a gun at a cop and I get killed by a cop, it is my fault. If you want to call that "victim blaming" then I don't know what to tell you


I think we can appreciate that there is a significant difference between a "database of shootings," and an academic study designed to control for confounding... Especially when the study was designed to show racial disparity in use of lethal force, but supported the opposite argument.
 
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The media has a bias. If it doesn't attract readers like flypaper, it doesn't get published. Just because all the newspaper are full with crap doesn't mean crap is frequent.

As much as I am a libertarian, and I love the first amendment, there should be a law against sensationalist irresponsible journalism, especially when it leads to violence.

I took the same position in my very first post on this thread when I said

...if we honestly believe that random spree/rampage shootings* have become a significant enough problem to address with new restrictions on our constitutionally protected rights, the rights protected by the second amendment aren't the ones we should be focusing on.
 
I am curious as to what some of the hardcore 2nd Amendment proponents have to say about the recent violence against police officers. From the shooter's perspective, he might claim he's fighting back against the government.

opening fire on a simple Terry stop? (may even be an incorrect terry stop, I don't know the open carry laws there) nope...you won't find any support from the maintstream 2nd ammendment crowd on that
 
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opening fire on a simple Terry stop? (may even be an incorrect terry stop, I don't know the open carry laws there) nope...you won't find any support from the maintstream 2nd ammendment crowd on that
No.

Opening fire because of the perception that black people are disproportionately being killed unnecessarily by the police. And therefore fighting back. You know the whole fighting against a tyrannical government thing.
 
I am curious as to what some of the hardcore 2nd Amendment proponents have to say about the recent violence against police officers. From the shooter's perspective, he might claim he's fighting back against the government.

That's ... a pretty silly line of thought, to be honest. I'm really not sure what to make of it. The same basic question has been asked a couple times already in this thread, and I wasn't planning on responding to it at all. But I guess I'll answer since it's come up again.

First, these shootings obviously aren't self defense. We ought to be able to agree that that particular leg of the 2A has zero bearing here.

Second, the targets are essentially random. Call it rage or anger, sure, but don't call it resistance against any kind of oppression. If it was the "government" policy for the police to randomly shoot black people because they're black, you might conceivably put forth a non-dismissible argument that random shootings of government agents (the police) is defense of self or liberty. But it's not, and it isn't. This seems absolutely unequivocally self evident to me, so I'm honestly bewildered why anyone would think random cop shootings are somehow a 2A exercise vs an oppressive government.

This is just murder. Nothing more.


Now, it's entirely possible that these individuals, whose warped world views led them to murder random police officers, think what they're doing is resisting tyranny with their constitutionally protected 2A rights. But that's not any different than the Muslim suicide bomber justifying murderous acts by claiming higher moral standing or purpose based on Quran teachings.

These cop shooters probably have a lot in common with typical terrorists: probably economically disadvantaged, few prospects to better their lives, feelings of humiliation or degradation at the hands of some other group.

None of this has anything to do with the 2nd Amendment.
 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.4134d913e5f1

"
In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But as data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times larger than the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

[Unarmed and black: Police are still killing unarmed black men at higher rates than whites]

Police have shot and killed a young black man (ages 18 to 29) — such as Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. —175 times since January 2015; 24 of them were unarmed. Over that same period, police have shot and killed 172 young white men, 18 of whom were unarmed. Once again, while in raw numbers there were similar totals of white and black victims, blacks were killed at rates disproportionate to their percentage of the U.S. population. Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation’s population.

And, when considering shootings confined within a single race, a black person shot and killed by police is more likely to have been unarmed than a white person. About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people."
 
Now the above article raises the obvious question: Do black Americans commit more crimes?

"http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439

There were angry protests across America this week after a grand jury decided a white police officer should not stand trial for the killing of black teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

FactCheck has already looked at the statistics on killings by law enforcement officials. Though imperfect, the official figures suggest blacks are disproportionately likely to die at the hands of police.

Several people have left comments pointing out that this is not necessarily surprising or unfair, since blacks are also disproportionately likely to be involved in violent crime in the US, thereby putting themselves in the firing line.

One reader, “James”, wrote: “It’s important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in this country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

“So, given this fact, does it make sense that black men are disproportionately involved in shootings with the police? Your graph is appropriately proportionate, when you take into consideration the role that the black population plays in, not just murder, but crime in general.”

“Sean” said: “If one group is more likely to be involved in that then they are more likely to be killed by the police – so they have nothing to complain about if that is the case.”

We thought we’d check these claims out.

The analysis

It’s true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.

And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white. Homicide is a broader category than “murder” but let’s not split hairs.

Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimisation rate was six times higher.

As we found yesterday, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks and 84 per cent of white victims were killed by whites.

Alternative statistics from the FBI are more up to date but include many crimes where the killer’s race is not recorded. These numbers tell a similar story.

In 2013, the FBI has black criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per cent for whites. The offender’s race was “unknown” in 29.1 per cent of cases.

What about violent crime more generally? FBI arrest rates are one way into this. Over the last three years of data – 2011 to 2013 – 38.5 per cent of people arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black.

Clearly, these figures are problematic. We’re talking about arrests not convictions, and high black arrest rates could be taken as evidence that the police are racist.

But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.

This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests.

So why are black offenders – and young black men in particular – over-represented in America’s crime statistics?

Judging from online comments, there is a wide spectrum of views on this, from unapologetic racism to militant refusal to blame the problem on anything but historic white racism.

Some criminologists think we could be simply confusing race for poverty or inequality: black people tend to offend more because they tend to be more disadvantaged, living in poorer urban areas with less access to public services, and so on.

If you control for deprivation, people of different races ought to be similarly predisposed to commit crime. Or that’s the theory, at least.

There is a lot of research in this area, but a lot of it is contradictory.

This study of violent crime in deprived neighbourhoods in Cleveland, Ohio, found that reductions in poverty led to reductions in the crime rate in exactly the same way in predominantly black and white areas, suggesting poverty, not race, is the biggest factor.

Other studies get different results.

All sociologists have suffered from the same basic problem: finding urban white communities that are as disadvantaged as the poorest black neighbourhoods, so that you can get a fair comparison.

Some thinkers play down the importance of poverty in favour of the “violent subculture theory”.

This is the idea that some black communities, for some reason, have developed cultural values that are more tolerant of crime and violence.

Some commentators on the unrest in Ferguson – mostly right-wing, though not all white – seem to favour this idea, but naturally it remains highly controversial.

The verdict

There is evidence in the official police-recorded figures that black Americans are more likely to commit certain types of crime than people of other races.

While it would be naïve to suggest that there is no racism in the US criminal justice system, victim reports don’t support the idea that this is because of mass discrimination.

Higher poverty rates among various urban black communities might explain the difference in crime rates, although the evidence is mixed.

There are few simple answers and links between crime and race are likely to remain the subject of bitter argument."
 
No.

Opening fire because of the perception that black people are disproportionately being killed unnecessarily by the police. And therefore fighting back. You know the whole fighting against a tyrannical government thing.

but that's not a true perception
 
That's ... a pretty silly line of thought, to be honest. I'm really not sure what to make of it. The same basic question has been asked a couple times already in this thread, and I wasn't planning on responding to it at all. But I guess I'll answer since it's come up again.

First, these shootings obviously aren't self defense. We ought to be able to agree that that particular leg of the 2A has zero bearing here.

Second, the targets are essentially random. Call it rage or anger, sure, but don't call it resistance against any kind of oppression. If it was the "government" policy for the police to randomly shoot black people because they're black, you might conceivably put forth a non-dismissible argument that random shootings of government agents (the police) is defense of self or liberty. But it's not, and it isn't. This seems absolutely unequivocally self evident to me, so I'm honestly bewildered why anyone would think random cop shootings are somehow a 2A exercise vs an oppressive government.

This is just murder. Nothing more.


Now, it's entirely possible that these individuals, whose warped world views led them to murder random police officers, think what they're doing is resisting tyranny with their constitutionally protected 2A rights. But that's not any different than the Muslim suicide bomber justifying murderous acts by claiming higher moral standing or purpose based on Quran teachings.

These cop shooters probably have a lot in common with typical terrorists: probably economically disadvantaged, few prospects to better their lives, feelings of humiliation or degradation at the hands of some other group.

None of this has anything to do with the 2nd Amendment.

Agree with you 100% that it is murder. But some may say that the police also has committed murder in some instances. It may be your opinion that this is not resistance against the government. But I'm willing to bet these guys killing cops think differently.

Also, just so my words are not confused. I'm definitely not condoning these actions of killing cops. But rather playing devil's advocate.
 
You're wrong about this.

No I'm not.

The other issues are ancillary to the core catalyst, black men being killed by police/ non-blacks. If it weren't for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, and Freddie Gray, and the narrative that has been built around them, there would be no Black Lives Matter, no protests, no riots, no police being murdered. Certainly other issues of racial inequity are being included in the protest, but in and of themselves are not sufficient to cause what we have seen recently.

From the Black Lives Matter site on the agenda of BLM
those demands include swift and transparent legal investigation of all police shootings of black people; official governmental tracking of the number of citizens killed by police, disaggregated by race; the demilitarization of local police forces; and community accountability mechanisms for rogue police officers.

There is only token mention of other racial inequity in police interaction.


The Dallas police shooter specifically said
he was upset about the recent police shootings.

The Ferguson Riots happened AFTER the shooting of Michael Brown and were a response to this.

The Baltimore riots happened AFTER the death of Freddie Gray and were in response to this.

The Million March protests happened AFTER the grand jury decision in the Eric Garner death.

I'm not sure how many examples you need, but I repeat the other racial inequity issues are ancillary. The protests, riots, and police killings would not be happening if not for the deaths.

- bsd
 
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I post a proper academic study out of Harvard and in response I get a Washington Post database and a Channel 4 "factcheck" in response?

Give me a f'n break.

-bsd

We could just stick with FOX news since they are a reliable source millions of people follow.
 
The methodology of the WaPo database:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c52238-43ad-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html


You can go through the raw data of the WaPo database here:

https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings

https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings/blob/master/fatal-police-shootings-data.csv


Feel free to argue with the FactCheck link and the Justice and FBI sources they cite...even though it supports the point you've been making.


And FYI, you posted a working paper by a Harvard economist, not a "proper academic study." It even says in the first page that it's not peer-reviewed and not subject to the NBER Board of Directors review like their official papers. Perhaps you need to get off your high horse and actually read what you post.
 
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People aren't protesting, rioting, and murdering police over inequities in non-lethal interactions. They are protesting, rioting, and murdering police over a lie that is being repeated again and again and again by the press, our leaders, and the president that innocent black men are being shot and killed by police in a racially inequitable manner.
A lot of white people, including rural living white people, seem to be real good at interpreting "misdirected" anger of urban black people. They could be right. Or, maybe a lot of black people feel they've been stopped for no reason, questioned on the street for no reason, experienced police violence, detained for questionable reasons, etc... In which case it's not a stretch for them to think they're treated unfairly, and maybe even killed with a little less compunction.

I'll grant that a lot of cops are d1cks and will push around anyone, given the chance. And if your black, you'll think it's racism instead of just misanthropy. And black people may on average live in more high crime areas. None of that means innocent people shouldn't make some noise when they don't like the way they're treated.

I think a lot of people who complain about the way they've been treated probably did ask for it. A lot of punks, innocent or not, fight tooth-n-nail with the police and then act incredulous that they were manhandled. But I think a lot of people have been treated very unfairly, and they know other people who they believe were treated unfairly. We weren't there so our interpretation of the interaction doesn't mean sh1t. And if somebody has been wronged and you tell them they haven't, or you tell them they're just not smart enough to see they're being manipulated, then you better believe your dismissal of their experiences is only going to make things much, much worse.
 
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No I'm not.

The other issues are ancillary to the core catalyst, black men being killed by police/ non-blacks. If it weren't for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, and Freddie Gray, and the narrative that has been built around them, there would be no Black Lives Matter, no protests, no riots, no police being murdered. Certainly other issues of racial inequity are being included in the protest, but in and of themselves are not sufficient to cause what we have seen recently.

From the Black Lives Matter site on the agenda of BLM


There is only token mention of other racial inequity in police interaction.


The Dallas police shooter specifically said


The Ferguson Riots happened AFTER the shooting of Michael Brown and were a response to this.

The Baltimore riots happened AFTER the death of Freddie Gray and were in response to this.

The Million March protests happened AFTER the grand jury decision in the Eric Garner death.

I'm not sure how many examples you need, but I repeat the other racial inequity issues are ancillary. The protests, riots, and police killings would not be happening if not for the deaths.

- bsd

I'm not sure what to say to you if you think BLM is simply a result of the some of the examples you mention above and frankly, it shows that your a little out of touch with what has been happening in black communities for years.

It is the result of years of alleged police brutality that has festered to the point of the recent violence against police. Only difference now is that everyone has a phone to record these instances.

From BLM home page:

"Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes."
 
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I'm not sure what to say to you if you think BLM is simply a result of the some of the examples you mention above and frankly, it shows that your a little out of touch with what has been happening in black communities for years.

It is the result of years of alleged police brutality that has festered to the recent violence against police. Only difference now is that everyone has a phone to record these instances.

From BLM home page:

"Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes."
unfortunately there is little interest in the truth as often the witnesses, even with video evidence, still lay the blame on officers

there have been some truly egregious straight up murders by officers, but not remotely all the ones claimed to be so
 
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A lot of white people, including rural living white people, seem to be real good at interpreting "misdirected" anger of urban black people. They could be right. Or, maybe a lot of black people feel they've been stopped for no reason, questioned on the street for no reason, experienced police violence, detained for questionable reasons, etc... In which case it's not a stretch for them to think they're treated unfairly, and maybe even killed with a little less compunction.

I'll grant that a lot of cops are d1cks and will push around anyone, given the chance. And if your black, you'll think it's racism instead of just misanthropy. And black people may on average live in more high crime areas. None of that means innocent people shouldn't make some noise when they don't like the way they're treated.

I think a lot of people who complain about the way they've been treated probably did ask for it. A lot of punks, innocent or not, fight tooth-n-nail with the police and then act incredulous that they were manhandled. But I think a lot of people have been treated very unfairly, and they know other people who they believe were treated unfairly. We weren't there so our interpretation of the interaction doesn't mean sh1t. And if somebody has been wronged and you tell them they haven't, or you tell them they're just not smart enough to see they're being manipulated, then you better believe your dismissal of their experiences is only going to make things much, much worse.

Spot on! It makes people angry when you assume you know their own personal experience.
 
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Agree with you 100% that it is murder. But some may say that the police also has committed murder in some instances.

Probably true.

It may be your opinion that this is not resistance against the government. But I'm willing to bet these guys killing cops think differently.

Also, just so my words are not confused. I'm definitely not condoning these actions of killing cops. But rather playing devil's advocate.

Well ... let's back up a little, as long as we're just advocating for the devil.

The actual people who have been shooting cops recently haven't really said much themselves, so I won't pretend to know their minds. But one thing they haven't done is bring up the 2nd Amendment and this notion that their cop shooting is Founding Father sanctioned resistance of a tyrannical government.

The Baton Rouge dingus said "I want to let ya'll, if anything happens with me ... don't affiliate me with nothing ... I'm affiliate with the spirit of justice, nothing more nothing less." I don't know how he personally defined "justice" in his head, but vengeance or punishment are probably reasonable interpretations.

The Dallas dingus said even less, but apparently liked some Facebook group that posted "It is time to visit Louisiana and hold a barbeque. The highlight of our occasion will be to sprinkle Pigs Blood!" That sounds like a vendetta.

The only people who are trying to draw parallels between these murderers and some weird, strained 2A-based theoretical government resistance are devil's advocates ... and anti-2A crusaders who'll seize any kind of violent crime with any kind of gun under any kind of circumstance and try to make it about the 2nd Amendment.


All that is not to say that crazy people out there won't do stupid, violent, criminal things and then spout off about their 2nd Amendment rights. It wasn't long ago that the Branch Dildonians were occupying a wildlife refuge and doing just that. But sensible people recognize them to be stupid, violent criminals, not principled revolutionaries.


So how do you tell the difference between a crazy loner or a small deluded group of criminals who violently resist what they imagine to be a tyrannical government, and a group of patriots who're watering the tree of liberty with actual tyrant blood?

It's easy. Not to be too glib, but the difference is:
1) the number of people behind the cause
2) the government is actually tyrannical
3) the patriots win, write the history books, and history refers to them as patriots

So, 0 for 3:
1) These two cop-shooting dinguses are loners, with no significant support or allies, anywhere.
2) The government doesn't actually have a "cops will kill black people for no reason" policy.
3) They lost.
 

"In uniform I get nasty hateful looks and out of uniform some consider me a threat."

I don't see where the cartoon of Obama placing a target on a police officers back correlates with anything he said in the post.

Please don't turn another sad situation into a political tirade and twisted idealogy that somehow the president is involved in these shootings. Are you even a physician?
 
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