Would attending an "Unranked" med school eliminate my chances of a top 10 ortho academic residency?

[basophilic]

So for this cycle I had applied very late (submitted secondaries in Nov-Jan), got 2 interviews at a mid-tier and a low-tier. Rejected at mid-tier and waitlisted at low-tier (i.e. 50+ rank based on US News rankings). Recently, though, I got an interview at one of the new "Unranked" med schools (based on US News research rankings).
I feel if I applied early, I would've had some chances at more-established mid-tier schools; I've decent stats: 3.75 GPA from top 30, 518 MCAT (132 physical/123 CARS/131 bio/132 behavioral), couple pubs with 1 first-author, couple national conferences, loads of clinical hours across different departments, EMT, tutoring, etc. (I'm fully aware that the CARS is low, but that's why I'm not aiming top tier.)

So my main question: if I ended up attending said unranked school, would it eliminate my chances at a top academic residency in a competitive specialty like orthopedics? The thing is when I look at residency match list of said school, the only top academic residency slots were in IM, EM, psych, and family med.
From looking at forums, top academic residencies (understandably) favor graduates from top med schools in general, but this is even more true for competitive specialties like orthopedics. Looking at the NREMP and current resident lists of top residencies further confirms this theory. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand there are several factors above med school rank that NREMP cites: Step scores, clinical grades, research, LORs, AOA membership, etc.

My "preliminary" goal in medicine would be to do ortho (I'm fully aware everyone starts off with that goal and very few end up making it; that's why I mention preliminary, I'd be flexible enough to change it depending on any new interests and/or med school performance). Let's say I work my butt off at the unranked med school to get the good Step scores, clinical/preclinical grades, ortho-related research publications (I already have 1 ortho-related first-author and have a good chance of another first-author by end of this year; also have poster at ORS), etc. Would I STILL be unable to match in a top 10 ortho residency? Note: this is obviously a hypothetical scenario, maybe even idealistic; I can definitely end up failing a class or two, do terrible on Steps, or maybe even get depressed or have a nervous breakdown or whatever. I'd just like to know of the possibility of matching in top 10 programs in this best-case scenario.

Thanks for the input! Sorry for long post

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mr Roboto]

You should worry about getting into med school before worrying about getting a "top 10 ortho academic residency."

 

[y123]

Why do you want to get into a "top 10 ortho academic residency"?
Getting into any ortho residency is already hard

 

[tymont12]

Worry about getting into med school. Don't worry about what hypothetical residency in a hypothetical specialty you might be able to get from a hypothetical 'unranked' med school. As long as you are at a US MD school, you have ample opportunity to show your merit and try to match somewhere.

 

[ortnakas]

Worry about getting in first.

 

[Goro]

Only pre-meds and med school deans pay any attention to USNR "rankings".

So for this cycle I had applied very late (submitted secondaries in Nov-Jan), got 2 interviews at a mid-tier and a low-tier. Rejected at mid-tier and waitlisted at low-tier (i.e. 50+ rank based on US News rankings). Recently, though, I got an interview at one of the new "Unranked" med schools (based on US News research rankings).
I feel if I applied early, I would've had some chances at more-established mid-tier schools; I've decent stats: 3.75 GPA from top 30, 518 MCAT (132 physical/123 CARS/131 bio/132 behavioral), couple pubs with 1 first-author, couple national conferences, loads of clinical hours across different departments, EMT, tutoring, etc. (I'm fully aware that the CARS is low, but that's why I'm not aiming top tier.)

So my main question: if I ended up attending said unranked school, would it eliminate my chances at a top academic residency in a competitive specialty like orthopedics? The thing is when I look at residency match list of said school, the only top academic residency slots were in IM, EM, psych, and family med.
From looking at forums, top academic residencies (understandably) favor graduates from top med schools in general, but this is even more true for competitive specialties like orthopedics. Looking at the NREMP and current resident lists of top residencies further confirms this theory. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand there are several factors above med school rank that NREMP cites: Step scores, clinical grades, research, LORs, AOA membership, etc.

My "preliminary" goal in medicine would be to do ortho (I'm fully aware everyone starts off with that goal and very few end up making it; that's why I mention preliminary, I'd be flexible enough to change it depending on any new interests and/or med school performance). Let's say I work my butt off at the unranked med school to get the good Step scores, clinical/preclinical grades, ortho-related research publications (I already have 1 ortho-related first-author and have a good chance of another first-author by end of this year; also have poster at ORS), etc. Would I STILL be unable to match in a top 10 ortho residency? Note: this is obviously a hypothetical scenario, maybe even idealistic; I can definitely end up failing a class or two, do terrible on Steps, or maybe even get depressed or have a nervous breakdown or whatever. I'd just like to know of the possibility of matching in top 10 programs in this best-case scenario.

Thanks for the input! Sorry for long post

 

[ScottTenorman54]

Your post just oozes an unhealthy obsession with rankings. But there's a difference between "unranked" and "rank not published". From what I understand, unranked just means the school didn't submit anything to USNR. "Rank Not Published", on the other hand, is the dreaded low-rank of your nightmares. So depending on the school, you might not need to worry about this. Some very good schools are unranked.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

If you've managed to get into an MD institution in US and you're considering passing it up because maybe you can't match Ortho top 10, then your priorities are not straight and you need to reevaluate your life.

I know kids in HS and undergrad keep getting fed this prestige stuff, but once you go out into the world, nobody cares because it doesn't matter. The sooner you learn this lesson, the better it'll be for your future. More important than a rank a magazine creates is to be in a place where you are treated well, with coworkers you get along with and in an area that makes you happy.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No but declining an acceptance and getting subsequently blackballed by schools in future cycles and never becoming a doctor will be a huge stumbling block in getting into a "top 10 ortho academic residency."

 

[1forrest1]

your stats sound similar to what my goal is.. if thats not good enough to get into med school then im in trouble lol


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Say]

To answer your question, yes it will be more difficult matching into a top 10 academic institution for a competitive residency coming from a non-academic focused institution. Is it impossible? No. Score well and do well on away rotations at these places and it can happen.

But c'mon, this is just common sense.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Don't be this guy.

 

[Brorthopedic]

lmao

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

I think the biggest hindrance to your matching will be that no ortho residents want to work a 24 hr shift with your high-strung self.

 

[HereWeGo21]

My "preliminary" goal in medicine would be to do ortho (I'm fully aware everyone starts off with that goal and very few end up making it; that's why I mention preliminary, I'd be flexible enough to change it depending on any new interests and/or med school performance).

Give this guy a f*cking break. He gets it's all hypothetical and he needs to get in first.

Only pre-meds and med school deans pay any attention to USNR "rankings".

False. Everyone does. MS3 here, plenty of the 4th years have talked about the rankings of the programs they're interviewing at. Rankings matter, and they continue to do so.

That said, I would never turn down an acceptance to a US MD med school to try to get something better next year

 

[Goro]

There are rankings in terms of the perceptions of people who count, and then there's USNWR.

False. Everyone does. MS3 here, plenty of the 4th years have talked about the rankings of the programs they're interviewing at. Rankings matter, and they continue to do so.

That said, I would never turn down an acceptance to a US MD med school to try to get something better next year

 

[WedgeDawg]

There are rankings in terms of the perceptions of people who count, and then there's USNWR.

Yes, but they generally correlate pretty well (at least for med school rankings, no idea about doximity)

 

[efle]

There are rankings in terms of the perceptions of people who count, and then there's USNWR.

Yes, but they generally correlate pretty well (at least for med school rankings, no idea about doximity)

It's crazy how close they correlate. I wonder why? Doesn't make much sense that more research funds at a certain place would make for better residents

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

Your odds are near enough zero either way.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's crazy how close they correlate. I wonder why? Doesn't make much sense that more research funds at a certain place would make for better residents

Did you make this graph?

 

[efle]

Did you make this graph?

Yeah I figure it's OK to post since it lacks names or scales on axes

 

[Whyamionhere]

It's crazy how close they correlate. I wonder why? Doesn't make much sense that more research funds at a certain place would make for better residents

Could be because a smaller part of the "research" ranking is made up of factors like residency director score, GPA/MCAT, maybe even peer rank, I forget what else. So that would explain the high correlation, since one of the variables is actually used in the calculation of the other one (research ranking)

I'm tired and might not have explained that well

 

[efle]

Could be because a smaller part of the "research" ranking is made up of factors like residency director score, GPA/MCAT, maybe even peer rank, I forget what else. So that would explain the high correlation, since one of the variables is actually used in the calculation of the other one (research ranking)

I'm tired and might not have explained that well

I think they are together worth 0.4 , so there must be a lot more at play to keep the overall R^2 at 0.9

 

[Whyamionhere]

I think they are together worth 0.4 , so there must be a lot more at play to keep the overall R^2 at 0.9

Very interesting.....yeah that's ridiculously strong

 

[Lucca]

It's crazy how close they correlate. I wonder why? Doesn't make much sense that more research funds at a certain place would make for better residents

A more informative way to raise this question is: "What about places with more research money makes them better places to obtain clinical training?". "Research funds" is probably a proxy for many variables which contribute to PD and Peer score.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

A more informative way to raise this question is: "What about places with more research money makes them better places to obtain clinical training?". "Research funds" is probably a proxy for many variables which contribute to PD and Peer score.

Can't really measure the quality of clinical training though. I mean, med students, residents, etc can make general assessments i.e. "this school will prepare you well for residency" or "this school is meh," but that's as far as it goes*

*Not factoring the impact of research opportunities, networking, etc.

 

[efle]

A more informative way to raise this question is: "What about places with more research money makes them better places to obtain clinical training?". "Research funds" is probably a proxy for many variables which contribute to PD and Peer score.

Any ideas? I can't think of anything that explains both very easily. There are top schools (by reputation) in all sorts of locations, with huge capture areas vs next door to multiple other uni hospitals, with some big differences in the type of students they admit, some ancient and others established pretty recently, different sizes, associated and not associated with other divisions of higher ed, etc.

 

[aldol16]

A more informative way to raise this question is: "What about places with more research money makes them better places to obtain clinical training?". "Research funds" is probably a proxy for many variables which contribute to PD and Peer score.

Any ideas? I can't think of anything that explains both very easily. There are top schools (by reputation) in all sorts of locations, with huge capture areas vs next door to multiple other uni hospitals, with some big differences in the type of students they admit, some ancient and others established pretty recently, different sizes, associated and not associated with other divisions of higher ed, etc.

Didn't want to read the whole damn thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but isn't a lot of "clinical training" tied to research? Many, if not most, residency programs have built in time for research projects. Prospective residents would therefore want to go places with great research, which all starts from having a lot of research funding.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Didn't want to read the whole damn thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but isn't a lot of "clinical training" tied to research? Many, if not most, residency programs have built in time for research projects. Prospective residents would therefore want to go places with great research, which all starts from having a lot of research funding.

No. Most people differentiate "clinical" training - e.g. in the OR, in the clinic, in the ER getting autonomy - vs research opportunities which are largely academic. Want to launch an academic career and join a university-based department? Then research is a must. But for most practicing orthopedic surgeons out in the community research isn't exactly on the front of their minds - their time is better spent (and better compensated) doing procedures.

Often, large academic centers with lots of funding will have a large array of post-residency fellows rotating around as well which may incredibly hamper autonomy of the residents - this is a concern in several fields.

 

[BombsAway]

Just curious,

You've been on SDN long enough to know you should be applying next cycle, not this one (nov-now), so what drove your decision making process? Seems like waiting a few more months till June would have you looking at top tiers, rather than hoping for bottom tier.

If you get an acceptance, great, you're going to be a physician! If you don't get an acceptance, great, you'll get in somewhere you'd rather be next cycle!

 

[mw18]

Any ideas? I can't think of anything that explains both very easily. There are top schools (by reputation) in all sorts of locations, with huge capture areas vs next door to multiple other uni hospitals, with some big differences in the type of students they admit, some ancient and others established pretty recently, different sizes, associated and not associated with other divisions of higher ed, etc.

I would think money plays a big part. Schools that get a lot of research dollars also get donations from benefactors and that money can go into other areas (strengthening rotations, skills and sim lab time, etc). I think an environment that is committed to academia at every level plays a role as well. When every attending at a location puts an emphasis on teaching as well as research, then that would result the same. The money plays a role in that as well, in that attendings who are interested in having academic careers are interested in their careers being at top research hospitals. They have big names in their fields, and people see them as a proxy for the clinical training.

 

[aprilfools]

My "preliminary" goal in medicine would be to do ortho (I'm fully aware everyone starts off with that goal and very few end up making it; that's why I mention preliminary, I'd be flexible enough to change it depending on any new interests and/or med school performance).

No.

 

[hubbsbubbs]

Yeah I figure it's OK to post since it lacks names or scales on axes

Nice pun there

 

[mimelim]

Didn't want to read the whole damn thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but isn't a lot of "clinical training" tied to research? Many, if not most, residency programs have built in time for research projects. Prospective residents would therefore want to go places with great research, which all starts from having a lot of research funding.

No. Some people would make an argument that they are inversely correlated. There are several top research oriented residencies in general surgery, IM and others that I would consider to give sub-par clinical experience. As in their graduates are not well prepared for clinical practice and for all practical purposes need to or feel like they need to do fellowships. Personally, I think that there is simply a poor correlation in either direction. They are simply unrelated.

What many also fail to realize is that few people actually want to do research. They think they do, or they feel pressured for 'prestige' reasons, but they truly don't enjoy it and since the vast majority of physicians will not do research as a part of their daily practice it is completely irrelevant. Private groups could not care less about your research endeavors. Sure, an impressive CV is great, but when looking to hire you, few jobs see it as a big plus.

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[aldol16]

What many also fail to realize is that few people actually want to do research. They think they do, or they feel pressured for 'prestige' reasons, but they truly don't enjoy it and since the vast majority of physicians will not do research as a part of their daily practice it is completely irrelevant. Private groups could not care less about your research endeavors. Sure, an impressive CV is great, but when looking to hire you, few jobs see it as a big plus.

You mean except posts at academic teaching hospitals?

 

[efle]

You mean except posts at academic teaching hospitals?

Wouldn't those be the posts for the few that actually enjoy research? If it's true that the vast majority of people don't care to do research during their career, then the vast majority aren't going to need that CV?

 

[flapjack3d]

No but it'll make it a lot harder

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

Just be happy with what you get and do your best.

On my interviews last year, you couldn't have paid me enough to attend *some* of the ranked programs I visited.

 

[flapjack3d]

)0)

Just be happy with what you get and do your best.

On my interviews last year, you couldn't have paid me enough to attend *some* of the ranked programs I visited.

truth. Ask yourswlf why you actually want to go to a ranked school.

 

[mimelim]

You mean except posts at academic teaching hospitals?

I don't understand what you are asking. Very few physicians work at academic teaching hospitals. Yes, that is where the majority if physicians that do research cluster.

 

[aldol16]

I don't understand what you are asking. Very few physicians work at academic teaching hospitals. Yes, that is where the majority if physicians that do research cluster.

I'm asking about the relative importance of research on your CV when you're interested in a career in academic medicine.

 

[flapjack3d]

I'm asking about the relative importance of research on your CV when you're interested in a career in academic medicine.

then yes academics are important if you want to be an academic lol

 

[aldol16]

then yes academics are important if you want to be an academic lol

I'm wondering more of what the balance is between research and clinical training if you want to be in academic medicine. Obviously you can't be a ****ty doctor, but do programs care more about your publications or about whether you trained somewhere well-known for its clinical medicine as well?

 

[flapjack3d]

I'm wondering more of what the balance is between research and clinical training if you want to be in academic medicine. Obviously you can't be a ****ty doctor, but do programs care more about your publications or about whether you trained somewhere well-known for its clinical medicine as well?

therell always be exceptions but if youre choosing between such competitive applicants, therell usually be plenty of people who have both. Im sure its field dependent tho. My PI is a top dog in surgery but he trained at a low tier med school and residenxy. If youre talrnted, youll do well. Might not be dept chair at mgh but who cares

 

[Med Ed]

Let's say I work my butt off at the unranked med school to get the good Step scores, clinical/preclinical grades, ortho-related research publications (I already have 1 ortho-related first-author and have a good chance of another first-author by end of this year; also have poster at ORS), etc. Would I STILL be unable to match in a top 10 ortho residency?

Possible but extremely difficult. I would go ahead and attend a highly ranked medical school if I were you. Top 15 would be ideal, but maybe you could reach down to 25 and still be okay.

 

[flapjack3d]

Possible but extremely difficult. I would go ahead and attend a highly ranked medical school if I were you. Top 15 would be ideal, but maybe you could reach down to 25 and still be okay.

OP go ask the ortho forum. Theyd know way bettet than preallo lmao

 

[piii]

Lmao you want to top residency but you couldn't even manage to throw your app together in a reasonable time

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Let's say I work my butt off at the unranked med school to get the good Step scores, clinical/preclinical grades, ortho-related research publications (I already have 1 ortho-related first-author and have a good chance of another first-author by end of this year; also have poster at ORS), etc. Would I STILL be unable to match in a top 10 ortho residency?

Not sure how one can come up with a list of "top 10 ortho residency programs" but you could google some of the bigger names like HSS, Wash U, NYU-HJD, Rush, Jefferson, Duke, Vanderbilt, etc to see which med schools their residents attended.