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Would doctors let a patient die?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by student12x, May 8, 2008.

  1. student12x

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    It seems shocking to me that the current medical system would let a curable albeit impoverished patient die. I found the following quote on facebook.

    So what do you think? Is this real? Or there are actually legal steps involved in saving her, thus making this a scam?
     
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  3. Isoprop

    Isoprop Fascinating, tell me more
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    1) yes doctors can "let a patient die."
    2) the above is a scam.
     
  4. BoredMD

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    Are you for real? That scam has been going around for years.
     
  5. JA Prufrock

    JA Prufrock Serenity Now!
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    can you actually get a brain tumor from 'repeated beatings'?

    This is a scam obviously, but I'm still curious.
     
  6. student12x

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    Well, it doesn't matter if its a scam. The main point stands clear.
     
  7. Maxprime

    Maxprime Higgs chaser
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    Just wire them some seed money so they can pay off the guards to get the $1m in reserves they have.
     
  8. nonesuchgirl

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    1. Scam.
    2. Economics.
     
  9. HumidBeing

    HumidBeing In Memory of Riley Jane
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  10. kevster2001

    kevster2001 Senior Member
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    wow you are ******ed
     
  11. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    Of course they can stand by as people die. The doctor can volunteer his own services, but who's going to pay the $100,000 ICU bill?
     
  12. RySerr21

    RySerr21 i aint kinda hot Im sauna
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    i can see it now!....


    Hi, my name is Student12x.

    I am X years old, and I have severe lung cancer . I also have a large
    tumour in my brain, from repeated insults from people on SDN like kevster2001. Doctors say I will
    die soon if this isn't fixed, and my family can't pay the bills.
    The Make A Wish Foundation has agreed to donate 7 cents for every time
    This message is sent on.
    For those of you who send this along, I thank you so much, but for
    those who don't send it, what goes around comes around.
    Have a Heart, please send this.
    Please, if you are a kind person, send this on.
    PLEASE HIT FORWARD BUTTON NOT REPLY BUTTON.

    YOUR'S FAITHFULLY,
    Student12x
    [email protected]
     
  13. student12x

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    Well, no one is. Why should someone place a value on human life? If you were in a situation where you are going to die just because you can't afford a surgery, would you go down without a fight?
     
  14. 87138

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    Honestly, what I can't understand is how all of you spoiled premeds can let these poor Nigerian princes watch their huge fortunes fly out the window simply because you won't help them finance their trip to the states.
     
  15. HumidBeing

    HumidBeing In Memory of Riley Jane
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    We need to avoid tossing personal insults on these boards. They are against the Terms of Service that we agree to follow when posting.

    OP, many people are taken in by this sort of email. They are spam.
     
  16. student12x

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    Look, I don't care if its spam. I'm debating a moral issue.
     
  17. MossPoh

    MossPoh Textures intrigue me
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    I'm not sure I understand your question. Would I go down without a fight because I can't afford a surgery? The two aren't mutually exclusive. People die all the time in the US because they can't afford proper medical care. That is why it is considered a huge gamble to go without solid health insurance. There are generally organizations that'll help out for people who TRULY can't pay. The bigger problem is the debt incurred by the people who can pay, but it takes everything to do so.

    People die every day everywhere in the world because they can't even access proper medical care. It sucks, but it happens. Doctors let patients die quite a bit as well. They aren't murdering them. Sometimes it is just the tough decision, but the right one. My great uncle, who was essentially my grand father, just died from leukemia. He could've forked over boatloads more money to keep on trying, but it was a pretty dire situation. He realized the strain it put on the family and just decided to let time take its course. The doctor had to choose the best path to let that patient die. They gave him things to feel comfortable and explained what would happen so it would not freak out the rest of the family.

    Oh, and I may have to hurt someone if anyone EVER thinks these "x cents per forward" emails are true. This crap makes me want to go postal.

    Since when is lung cancer and a brain tumor considered curable? Treatable to some extent, maybe. Last time I checked, we didn't have a "cure" for cancer. There are some very strong key words missing in that to determine how treatable the cancer is even...all the more proof it is written by an idiot to annoy everyone.
     
  18. J1515

    J1515 Member
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    Yes, it's 100% real. Forward to everyone you know at least 10 times and make sure you tell them to do the same.
     
  19. CrepesofWrath

    CrepesofWrath They're delicious.
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    Well, there is considerable evidence that head trauma (especially repeated head trauma) puts people at risk for neurodegenerative disorders like ALS, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The prevalence rates for these diseases in older athletes that participated in high contact sports like boxing is much higher than in the general population... crazy.
     
  20. gujuDoc

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    its not about which human life is more valuable, but the fact of the matter is that it costs money to run hospitals and if we took every person who needed surgery for free or every person who needed life saving treatment for free, how would all the healthcare workers put food on the table for their own families?? How would we have the money to even have equipment and other important things for the hospital?

    Its so easy to say this naive idealistic notion but the more you realize how much money it takes to run a hospital even if pay wasn't there for healthcare workers in terms of electricity bills, paying for equipment and technology, other such things, it would come out to quite a bit of money.

    You are naive if you think the way you do. No one is saying that we shouldn't care about others, but sometimes you have to make tough decisions.

    Also, there are some cancer patients at the clinic where I volunteer who are in this position because the medicines cause millions of dollars and can only be obtained through Sloan Kettering affiliated with Cornell. It happens. Its sad, and I feel for the families, but its not like we will be able to save every single person. Our job is to provide comfort and relieve pain as much as possible but there will be moments where either for financial reasons or other reasons we won't be able to do anything. That is reality.
     
  21. student12x

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    First, we are not a third world country. And, I wouldn't go down without a fight. Every person has the right to surival and may obtain it by means. Just because people die all the time, from lack of money or health insurance doesn't give them an excuse to give up.

    And it is murder to a degree because the doctor could actually do something to prevent the death. Its like someone hanging from a cliff, you could take some risks and help, or you could let him fall.

    Look at from another perspective, say I was said patient and that I falsefied financial records in order to receive the life saving surgery, would I have made the wrong choice? you tell me.
     
  22. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    Morally? Yes. It's like a starving child stealing food from the grocery store. It's still theft, and someone still has to pay for that.
     
  23. Steeler7588

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    That's not murder.
     
  24. student12x

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    Suicide is immoral. If I had the option to save myself through theft, but didn't, I would be committing a moral crime.(i.e suicide)
     
  25. JA Prufrock

    JA Prufrock Serenity Now!
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    That makes sense, though I haven't heard of any correlation between repeated head trauma and occurence of tumors/cancer.
     
  26. nonesuchgirl

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    to you, maybe
     
  27. JA Prufrock

    JA Prufrock Serenity Now!
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    suicide is not immoral, where did you get that from?
     
  28. student12x

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    ^^^ are you joking?
     
  29. nonesuchgirl

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    Sweetie, just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone does. It doesn't even mean that you're right.
     
  30. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    This thread is an embarrassment to SDN.
     
  31. student12x

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    Ok, lets argue this logically, theft isn't going to kill anyone. Therefore, if theft can save a life, its right.
     
  32. nonesuchgirl

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  33. JA Prufrock

    JA Prufrock Serenity Now!
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    no. do you know how to set out philosophical arguments? If so, set one out that shows how suicide is immoral.
     
  34. student12x

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    Pinkertinkle, If you can't adduce any logical arguments then don't talk.
     
  35. nonesuchgirl

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    That is not logic.
     
  36. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    If you can't make a thread that doesn't start with a scam so obvious a 12 year old would delete it then don't make new threads.
     
  37. nonesuchgirl

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    [​IMG]
     
  38. student12x

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    Simple, many religions consider it to be so, so if you believe in any one of them, then I'm right. Also, by committing suicide, you bring grief to your loved ones. Furthermore, the individual would be exempt from being immoral if the suicide is used to end excessive and otherwise, recalcitrant pain. However this is not the case.
     
  39. nonesuchgirl

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    And if you don't.

    What if no one cares.

    What.

    Rinse, repeat.
     
  40. LadyWolverine

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    The scenario that you put forth would not constitute suicide. It is not suicide if the natural progression of the situation would lead to your death - a situation that you did not willingly put yourself in. Suicide occurs when you willingly put yourself in a situation where death will be the outcome. For example, people refuse medical treatment all the time, even if they have access to/can afford it, which leads ultimately to their death. This is not suicide.

    Furthermore, I find your comments and perspective to be alarmingly naive. If doctors were expected to "save" every person with a brain tumor or other potentially terminal/devastating illness who came in to their office/hospital and couldn't pay, the system would collapse. This is not the way the world works. People should realize this before they go to medical school, because they are in for a rude awakening if they don't.

    PS nonesuch, I think I just peed my pants laughing.

    Edit: Why am I wasting my time arguing with someone who started a ridiculous thread based on facebook chain mail? I must really be trying to procrastinate.
     
  41. student12x

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    Strawman fallacy? Pinkertinkle. Whatever, just keep your mouth shut. You have either proved your point or disproved mine.
     
  42. smq123

    smq123 John William Waterhouse
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    * If she wants and needs treatment, a lack of finances should not stop her from getting it. The social worker will work with the financial department of the hospital, and either get the patient a reduced rate (by tapping into government resources that are available for the uninsured), or work out a long-term payment plan. In any case, money will not prevent doctors from treating her.

    I mean - let's be realistic here. If you become a third year medical student, you WILL be taking care of illegal immigrants - none of whom are exactly rolling in cash, either. A lack of money, heck a lack of a valid social security number, isn't enough to keep them from getting treated. (I'm being serious here - I've already taken care of, at least, half-a-dozen illegal immigrants - it'd be more if I were in NY or Texas.)

    Don't get suckered into the spam.

    * Would doctors "let" a patient die? YES - we do it all the time. It's technically called "making a patient DNR/DNI," which means "Do Not Resuscitate/Do Not Intubate." Some patients know that they have a disease that will kill them, but they are ready to die...and will request that no measures be done to save them if they were to stop breathing, or if their heart were to stop beating. As a doctor, you will have to respect their wishes.

    You're turning spam into a moral issue? :confused:

    As far as I know, no, you can't get a brain tumor that way.

    Which, looking at the average thread on SDN, is REALLY saying something. ;)
     
  43. nonesuchgirl

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    [​IMG]
     
  44. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    I'm going to drop adduce in a bit.
     
  45. JA Prufrock

    JA Prufrock Serenity Now!
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    that's not a coherent argument. that many religions have their own set of morals doesn't mean anything. morals exist independent of religion, though there is some overlap. That you are causing grief to people you care about shows irresponsibility, but that does not make it immoral. If your parents don't want you to go to med school, but you decide to go anyway and cause them grief, does that make going to med school immoral? What about people who have no loved ones? Is suicide moral for them because they are not causing grief to anyone?

    Why is it okay for a person to kill themselves if they are in intense pain? Aren't they still causing grief to their loved ones, and since that's one of your criteria for morality, that still makes it immoral.

    I'm not trying to be a jackass, but honestly dude, you're pretty bad at this stuff.
     
  46. endocardium

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    Unbelievable. It's hard to comprehend that one might be so sheltered and/or naive...

    Yes, avoidable death happens. Is it cool? Nope, but it is a reality; just look around you, for goodness sake. Leave morality out of it, since it just introduces what is inherently arguable and probably not resolvable. What is NOT arguable is that, while your scenario is fake, there are tens of millions of people in the US that don't have access to adequate health care, which probably results in avoidable death and/or illness.
     
  47. student12x

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    My bad, I meant neither.

    "You have neither proved your point or disproved mine."
     
  48. student12x

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    How about this guys? Disprove this statement.

    "If theft can save a life, then it should be done."
     
  49. nonesuchgirl

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    whose life
    why theft
     
  50. student12x

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    Go all the way and disprove it.
     
  51. endocardium

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    Actually, it isn't necessary to disprove it. You have the burden of proof, if you want to make it your point.
     

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