Would you allow clients to sit in on a minor surgical procedure?

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Incis0r

Incis0r

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My cat needs a tooth extraction (his first) and I am scared to death of leaving him alone all day in a cage (my vet is instructing a 7am drop off and 5pm pickup).

I also want to ensure that he is treated with respect and care- you never know what may happen behind closed doors when the owner is gone. I'm not implying that Vets treat pets badly. However, I follow the policy of "Trust but verify."

So, do you think it's reasonable for me to quietly stand in a corner and watch my pet's procedure...start to finish?
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The reason why they want you to leave him is because the procedure will be fit into a block of time schedule between appointments most likely, and a few things need to happen first - he'll be examined to determine whether there are any new anesthetic risk factors, then any pre-anesthetic diagnostics (bloodwork, x-rays, whatever) will be done if they're determined to be necessary and aren't done yet, an anesthetic plan will be made, he'll be premedded and induced and then the procedure will be done, and then he'll have to recover from anesthesia and a plan will be made up for his home care.

Right now, you aren't talking about trusting but verifying - you are being a little bit crazy. If you wanted to watch the procedure out of some scientific interest (are you a dentist or something?) then maybe your vet would be okay with it, but as a layperson and just because you are concerned about how they will treat your cat, it's unlikely. If they accommodated everyone who wanted to do that, people would be standing around the treatment area and it would become a liability pretty quick with all the animals, emergencies that may come in, biohazards, anesthetic gases, radiation, etc. So the long and short of it is that it's probably not feasible unless your vet makes a special exception for some reason. And it's perfectly within their rights to say no.

edit: I have heard of a clinic that has a one-way window on one side of their treatment area though where this would be a more reasonable thing to consider.
 
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Thank you for your response.
 
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Incis0r said:
And it's within my rights, as my pet's guardian, to remove that Vet as my pet's official Vet and find one who will let me watch. If I can't find one locally, I'll pay extra to fly my pet to a hospital in a different state where they allow it (I know certain vets allow it).
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Don't you think that putting your cat through the stress and risk of flying because you are being (imo) overly paranoid is a bit selfish? What happens if your cat needs emergency surgery one day and the clinic will not allow you back? Are you going to possibly risk his/her life by trying to find another one that will? It's the ultimate extreme example for what I think is an extreme stance.

Go to a vet that you feel you can trust. Whether that is through reviews, word of mouth, rec from someone else you trust, what have you. But flying out of state would not be what is best for your cat, it would only be serving you.
 
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Incis0r said:
And it's within my rights, as my pet's guardian, to remove that Vet as my pet's official Vet and find one who will let me watch. If I can't find one locally, I'll pay extra to fly my pet to a hospital in a different state where they allow it (I know certain vets allow it).
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Great. If it's that important for you to watch, and you know there are vets that will let you, why are you posting here? Just go find one of those vets. What are you hoping to accomplish here?

P.S. You're being crazy. If you don't trust your vet, you should be getting another one. Not insisting that you can monitor some procedure when you don't actually have a clue what to watch for to make sure it's done right (Yes - I see you have dental or pre-dental or whatever background. You still don't know how to evaluate whether a feline dental procedure is being done appropriately any more than I would be able to evaluate whether a human dental procedure is being done correctly. Don't fool yourself.)
 
Has your cat been spayed or neutered? If yes then this is not their first "major" medical procedure. And depending on the tooth, I'm not convinced this is overly major.

I wouldn't let a client back because the likelihood is that you won't understand each and every step. And even gentle handling for catheter placement may look not gentle to some. Especially in a client that wants to fly to a different state just to watch a dental.
 
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Incis0r said:
Thank you for your response.



I have the time to wait. No worries.



How? This is the first time my pet has gotten a major surgical procedure, I have heard horror stories of Vets committing abuse, and I just want to ensure that doesn't happen to my pet who is dependent on me.



And it's within my rights, as my pet's guardian, to remove that Vet as my pet's official Vet and find one who will let me watch. If I can't find one locally, I'll pay extra to fly my pet to a hospital in a different state where they allow it (I know certain vets allow it).
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You would really put your cat through the stress of flying somewhere just to allay your worries about what will happen in a surgical suite? I think you have your priorities confused.

Some vets will let you watch, but I suspect most won't. It depends on the facilities, the individual vet, and the client. Many clinics don't have "a quiet corner" for someone to sit and watch. Many vets may not believe that you will just sit quietly and watch. Many vets may not someone who has admitted they don't trust them to be staring at them from a corner --- it's very different to have an observer who is watching for his/her genuine interest, and an observer who is watching and listening to every move and word spoken for something that might not seem right to their untrained ears.

Most hospitals do not allow a parent to watch their child's (or even their baby's) surgery, even if they allow them to be with the child until anesthetized.
 
Where I work, we do allow owners to stay and watch on request. But in a million years, I would never recommend it to an owner, for most of the reasons that have already been mentioned. And owners that do stay, agree to abide by our safety rules.

The pet is still brought in first thing in the morning for exam, bloodwork, and anything else that needs to be done before hand. We do explain what we are doing as we do it, but owners are warned that injections may sting/catheters do require shaving and needle pokes/animals can't always understand what we are doing/etc, and we do our best to mitigate unnecessary force or fear. I also discuss with owners that surgery of any kind can be very bloody, and the way their pet is manipulated during surgery may not look the nicest, but is done with the upmost care possible with the most up to date methods available.

If you are adamant about watching the procedure, find a vet you trust that allows it, and go for it. But also realize that you might not recognize proper treatment vs. abuse when it comes to the procedure itself. Even well done and appropriately done procedures can look barbaric to an outsider.


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I think watching a surgical procedure for a non-surgeon will increase your stress and not be of benefit to you. Even my girlfriend can't watch more than a few seconds of Gray's Anatomy during the surgery parts because they are particularly upsetting. She doesn't know the details of pre-medication, IV catheter placement, intubation, general anesthesia or the different responses of a creature to different chemicals. For someone who doesn't understand or who isn't familiar with all these aspects of medicine, it can be very stressful. Heck, some people freak out when their cat is scruffed or wrapped in a towel for a blood draw because the animal is acting quite aggressively and won't hold still; that doesn't make it abuse. I have seen people get light-headed and nearly faint from merely seeing a vaccination injection. If you are at all squeamish, please don't put yourself in a position to become more distraught. Pets can sense an owner's stress and will often ramp up their anxiety in response.

I agree with the other comments that you would be better served by finding a vet that will allow you to take a tour of their hospital and treatment areas and explain everything to you in detail before the procedure. Also, keep in mind that human surgeons also rarely allow family members to watch the happenings of a treatment area. I think all medical professionals try to focus as best they can on their patients but having a guardian nearby watching can be distracting to the staff and doctors, which is not something you want during the care of a living, breathing creature.
 
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LetItSnow said:
P.S. You're being crazy. If you don't trust your vet, you should be getting another one.
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That's what it boils down to for me. A client insisting on watching is saying. "I don't trust you." And if you don't trust me, go elsewhere. It's fine to say, "Do you mind if I watch?" and my answer will probably be no, and as long as the owner accepts that, we're cool.
 
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Questions are great -- I encourage questions, and want clients to be comfortable. Even take down a written list of questions if you like.
 
dyachei said:
Questions are always good. Make sure you're comfortable with what will happen. You want the cat intubated with an IV catheter, fwiw
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DVMDream said:
And you want dental radiographs... to evaluate all of the teeth appropriately.
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CalliopeDVM said:
Questions are great -- I encourage questions, and want clients to be comfortable. Even take down a written list of questions if you like.
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I wish one of you practiced in my region. You are all terrific. Thank you so much.
 
@Incis0r - another reason that having clients sit in on surgical procedures is a bad idea for everyone involved (and I don't mean to worry you by saying this - dentals are very low-risk procedures overall) is if something goes wrong. If something happens under anesthesia and we need to re-stabilize the patient in an emergency situation, the last thing a team needs is an emotional owner who doesn't understand what is going on and is starting to freak out. We need to be able to focus on the patient and need a calm, professional environment to do so. Having the owner around only makes a tense situation worse and can even affect the outcome if we cannot focus where we need to.

I also agree with everyone else that questions are wonderful and definitely ask anything you want to. I know putting a pet under anesthesia, even for something like a dental, can be very stressful. When my own dog was in surgery to remove a liver mass earlier this year, I was a wreck - and heck, I'm even a professional who knows all the risks! :) It's normal and natural to be worried, and to want to know as much as possible. A good vet will sit down with you and explain everything.

Additionally, as others have mentioned, having the owner around can actually be MORE distressing for certain pets. When my dog was in ICU recovering from her surgery, as much as I wanted to go visit her, I knew that if I did it would only ramp her up and she would start turning on the waterworks as soon as I came in. As much as I wanted to be there, I had to swallow my own worry and just let her snooze and recover.

But more importantly....given your location in your profile....you had better not be Alliance scum ;) Lok'tar ogar.
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
@Incis0r - another reason that having clients sit in on surgical procedures is a bad idea for everyone involved (and I don't mean to worry you by saying this - dentals are very low-risk procedures overall) is if something goes wrong. If something happens under anesthesia and we need to re-stabilize the patient in an emergency situation, the last thing a team needs is an emotional owner who doesn't understand what is going on and is starting to freak out. We need to be able to focus on the patient and need a calm, professional environment to do so. Having the owner around only makes a tense situation worse and can even affect the outcome if we cannot focus where we need to.

I also agree with everyone else that questions are wonderful and definitely ask anything you want to. I know putting a pet under anesthesia, even for something like a dental, can be very stressful. When my own dog was in surgery to remove a liver mass earlier this year, I was a wreck - and heck, I'm even a professional who knows all the risks! :) It's normal and natural to be worried, and to want to know as much as possible. A good vet will sit down with you and explain everything.

Additionally, as others have mentioned, having the owner around can actually be MORE distressing for certain pets. When my dog was in ICU recovering from her surgery, as much as I wanted to go visit her, I knew that if I did it would only ramp her up and she would start turning on the waterworks as soon as I came in. As much as I wanted to be there, I had to swallow my own worry and just let her snooze and recover.

But more importantly....given your location in your profile....you had better not be Alliance scum ;) Lok'tar ogar.
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Best post ever, except for the last paragraph. I fight for the Glory of Gnomeregan and General Stormpike. In light of your excellent post, I can forgive your tragic mistake in choosing the wrong side. Haha you play?

Seriously, thank you for taking the time to write that post. You made me feel 100x better, and when I think back to this day, it's your post that I'm going to remember.
 
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How did this turn into a WoW discussion.

I'm Alliance through and through myself. Just never could get comfortable on my horde alts.


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katryn said:
How did this turn into a WoW discussion.

I'm Alliance through and through myself. Just never could get comfortable on my horde alts.


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This is SDN- stranger things have happened xD

I knew I liked you. Those...orcs and undead just don't get it.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
I got full Glad gear, come at me bro!
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So do I! And I have the gnome racial (nimble fingers = increased haste) + escape artist ready to go.

I suggest you become friends with your spirit healer because you'll be spending a lot of time at the graveyard.

This just got real.
 
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kcoughli said:
it would probably be a bad idea for me to restart my subscription... but this talk is making me want to
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Restarted mine yesterday... Already level 52 with my new hunter. Just in time for boards!
 
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Incis0r said:
Alliance?
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Horde. Always used to be Alliance but now I'm playing with the boyfriend and he only plays Horde. I haven't played in SUCH a long time, everything is so different!
 
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Rwwilliams said:
Horde. Always used to be Alliance but now I'm playing with the boyfriend and he only plays Horde. I haven't played in SUCH a long time, everything is so different!
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I feel you there. I just restarted after a 3.5ish year break. I missed two whole expansions....


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I haven't done much exploring with the garrison on my max level character (used the free auto 100 bump). And my alts are all still in outlands.

Right now I'm just trying to relearn my class mechanics and fight the hubs over who gets to heal vs. dps.


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katryn said:
I haven't done much exploring with the garrison on my max level character (used the free auto 100 bump). And my alts are all still in outlands.

Right now I'm just trying to relearn my class mechanics and fight the hubs over who gets to heal vs. dps.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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What is this nonsense?

I remember the good old days when you had to bribe your pets to stay with you with fish or cheese or what have you and had to buy quivers and arrows in order to shoot with a bow. Grumble grumble.

But now I want a free lvl 100 character...
 
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katryn said:
I haven't done much exploring with the garrison on my max level character (used the free auto 100 bump). And my alts are all still in outlands.

Right now I'm just trying to relearn my class mechanics and fight the hubs over who gets to heal vs. dps.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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Roll a gnome rogue with full heirloom gear (total set costs you about 6K from the heirloom vendor IronForge and from a guild vendor).

You'll thank me later.
 
kcoughli said:
What is this nonsense?

I remember the good old days when you had to bribe your pets to stay with you with fish or cheese or what have you and had to buy quivers and arrows in order to shoot with a bow. Grumble grumble.

But now I want a free lvl 100 character...
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WoW's target player base has gotten older, and in order to maintain them, they have made the game easier to get into and advance in. Already they have mounts available at level 20 (instead of first mount at 40).

Plus it is super easy to make gold now....I know some people sitting with 998K on their toons. I hear Blizzard will curb this inflation with Legion, though.
 
kcoughli said:
What is this nonsense?

I remember the good old days when you had to bribe your pets to stay with you with fish or cheese or what have you and had to buy quivers and arrows in order to shoot with a bow. Grumble grumble.

But now I want a free lvl 100 character...
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And back when surv was a viable hunter spec :bigtears:
 
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Legion looks like it has a lot of interesting things in it...though I'm still grumpy that they took out old-style challenge modes. Though on the plus side indont really know how I'll find time to raid with my west coast guild this time around...:confused:

And space goats are by far the best. Blue ftw!
 
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flameshock said:
Legion looks like it has a lot of interesting things in it...though I'm still grumpy that they took out old-style challenge modes. Though on the plus side indont really know how I'll find time to raid with my west coast guild this time around...:confused:

And space goats are by far the best. Blue ftw!
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Guess who is helping TA first year anatomy.

And guess whose quizzes will mysteriously go missing.

FOR THE HORDE.
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
And guess whose quizzes will mysteriously go missing.

FOR THE HORDE.
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Guess whose flag will be ninja'd while he is busy making others quizzes disappear?

FOR THE ALLIANCE.
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
Guess who is helping TA first year anatomy.

And guess whose quizzes will mysteriously go missing.

FOR THE HORDE.
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Gotta find me first!

(Do we even have quizzes? I thought it was just midterm/final)

Maybe I'll dig out some of my horde clothing to throw you off the trail...:whistle: /alliancespy
 
kcoughli said:
But now I want a free lvl 100 character...
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If you pre-order the expansion before it releases, you can upgrade one character to level 100 for free. It works best if you use it on an already fairly high level character. So my old main that was already 80 got the upgrade.



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Also, I now really want to try organizing an SDN guild somewhere so I have more people to play with.


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katryn said:
If you pre-order the expansion before it releases, you can upgrade one character to level 100 for free. It works best if you use it on an already fairly high level character. So my old main that was already 80 got the upgrade.



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And now I have to figure out what expansion we're on now and whether or not I can justify doing that...
 
kcoughli said:
And now I have to figure out what expansion we're on now and whether or not I can justify doing that...
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The newest expansion is Legion (45$). And all of the old content is free to play for the normal monthly account fee.

(Not that I'm trying to enable people to come back to the game....)


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