"Would you do it again?" - nonacademics

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'd add "strong technical skills" to the mix as well, maybe even trumping "knowledge." Without good practicum experiences and strong individualized supervision, many students graduate without the technical skills needed to be quality clinicians (though they may be real knowledgeable about psychology and therapy, they just can't apply that knowledge). That can contribute to poor career advancement and lack of satisfaction.

Great points. I actually started to write more...but I didn't have the time so I just hacked it down to those two. Knowledge definitely falls short without mentorship because the information needs to be understood in context, synthesized, and then applied through various interventions.

I see so many shoot for R1 positions and no one tells them things like you are better off getting more teaching experience because that is what many smaller institutions are more interested in.

I have definitely seen more than a handful of people do "R1 or Bust", and most of them didn't focus on teaching because it got in the way of publishing. It is definitely a different mindset. Sadly, at the best R1s.....research productivity and grant $$ are king, and everything else is somewhat negotiable. I'm at a Top 10 R1, and the faculty members are constantly chasing $'s and trying to meet/exceed the productivity standards because the tenture track is SO competitive. I think only 1-2 of our faculty members actually teach with any regularity, though the responsibilities of med school faculty are a bit different than in a psych dept....so YMMV.

I just don't see many students or early career people in the field who have really done market analysis and know what job prospects and salaries to expect.

*raises hand*

I've been tracking the numbers for the past 5 years, though it was pretty difficult in the beginning to get good data because so few people actually talked about salary...let alone total compensation. It is important to differentiate between salary and total compensation because psychologists often work multiple jobs and have a lot more opportunity for soft money than the typical therapist. I was looking at a position at Virginia (or Virginia Tech?) awhile back, and they actually had a 'compensation calculator' that told you exactly how much your compensation package would be at a given salary and position (staff v. faculty, etc). A $75k position quickly jumped to $110k+ when you factored in healthcare coverage, paid vacation, licensure fees, etc.

...and other who are disappointed in the salaries of their chosen area of the field (mostly those in college counseling centers and those working with children/families in community mental health). Those that chose a path more similar to mine seem happier in the field (VA employees, health psych people, neuropsych people, medical school/center academics).

There are admittedly HUGE gaps in salary (and overall compensation) across job settings within psychology, though "Happier" is a bit of a harder thing to quantify. Everyone would love to make $200k+ & work at a job they love, but the reality is that there will almost always be some compromise...the trick is finding a job where there is a good balance for you.

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[Sanman]

There are admittedly HUGE gaps in salary (and overall compensation) across job settings within psychology, though "Happier" is a bit of a harder thing to quantify. Everyone would love to make $200k+ & work at a job they love, but the reality is that there will almost always be some compromise...the trick is finding a job where there is a good balance for you.

Well, I would say happier in the sense of satisfied with where they are in their career and in life. 200k would be great, but I am talking much smaller numbers. I have talked to colleagues in some other settings and areas I mentioned and they are making, as licensed clinicians, the same or even a bit less than I am making unlicensed and I stand to make a significant salary bump (~20k + benefits) if I stay in my current position after I get licensed. I know someone that took a UCC post-doc for $20k. Another colleague, licensed, is struggling to afford a new car when his old one finally died and had to ask his parents for help. To me $75k to $200k is a spread, but one that at least affords all of those mentioned a living salary, the ability pay back loans and at least be comfortable. I have seen licensed colleagues, first year in practice, start out anywhere from $35k to $90k. That spans huge differentials in regards to being able to even afford the basics.

 

[Pragma]

Well, I would say happier in the sense of satisfied with where they are in their career and in life. 200k would be great, but I am talking much smaller numbers. I have talked to colleagues in some other settings and areas I mentioned and they are making, as licensed clinicians, the same or even a bit less than I am making unlicensed and I stand to make a significant salary bump (~20k + benefits) if I stay in my current position after I get licensed. I know someone that took a UCC post-doc for $20k. Another colleague, licensed, is struggling to afford a new car when his old one finally died and had to ask his parents for help. To me $75k to $200k is a spread, but one that at least affords all of those mentioned a living salary, the ability pay back loans and at least be comfortable. I have seen licensed colleagues, first year in practice, start out anywhere from $35k to $90k. That spans huge differentials in regards to being able to even afford the basics.

Ditto and that is the range I have witnessed as I have searched for jobs after I finish my postdoc myself. It is quite the range, and I made more than the lower extreme with my BA in Psychology.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ditto and that is the range I have witnessed as I have searched for jobs after I finish my postdoc myself. It is quite the range, and I made more than the lower extreme with my BA in Psychology.

That is a very fair point. I haven't spent nearly as much time looking at CCs, CMHCs, and/or more therapy related settings...so my numbers are probably not reflective of them.

It is scary to see $50k's in places like NYC...yet there is a job doing psych evals for the police dept. that is being advertised in that range. I knew I'd have a certain amount of debt coming from a Psy.D., so I did a lot of research up front about the different job options because working at a CMHC for $48k/yr* isn't going to cut it for me to enjoy a certain lifestyle and pay off my loans. I make in the $40s now as a fellow, and I can't imagine trying to raise a family on it.

*completely made up salary.

 

[Pragma]

That is a very fair point. I haven't spent nearly as much time looking at CCs, CMHCs, and/or more therapy related settings...so my numbers are probably not reflective of them.

It is scary to see $50k's in places like NYC...yet there is a job doing psych evals for the police dept. that is being advertised in that range. I knew I'd have a certain amount of debt coming from a Psy.D., so I did a lot of research up front about the different job options because working at a CMHC for $48k/yr* isn't going to cut it for me to enjoy a certain lifestyle and pay off my loans. I make in the $40s now as a fellow, and I can't imagine trying to raise a family on it.

*completely made up salary.

Some of us neuropsych fellows have to moonlight as an adjunct instructor (for multiple courses per year) in order to hit the low 40's

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some of us neuropsych fellows have to moonlight as an adjunct instructor (for multiple courses per year) in order to hit the low 40's

We aren't allowed to work outside of the fellowship. Of course...it isn't like I'd have time to anyway. I have more free time now, but the first year and a half was pretty slammed.

 

[Pragma]

We aren't allowed to work outside of the fellowship. Of course...it isn't like I'd have time to anyway. I have more free time now, but the first year and a half was pretty slammed.

Yeah mine took a lot of negotiation! I'd say we are slammed, but most of the heavier days are predictable which has allowed me to selectively teach (with approval of course). The postdoc itself probably averages 55-60 hours per week (a 40 or 70 hour week happens on occasion), and as long as I keep grading to the weekends at home, my boss is satisfied.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

We were averaging 60+ (sometimes 70) the first year or so, but I also crammed in regular neurology didactics 3x wk, patho, seizure clinic, and at least a couple of case seminars a week. Now I just hit the really interesting talks and enjoy my time.

 

[Sanman]

You two are making me feel better that I went and got a job. I almost feel like a slacker pulling 50 hr weeks.

 

[positivepsych]

From Monster's Top 30 Fastest Growing Jobs by 2020:
http://www.boston.com/bostonworks/galleries/fastest_growing_jobs_2020?pg=4

Replacing clinical psychologists:

28. Mental health counselors

Projected increase in 2020: 36.3 percent
Number employed in 2010: 120,300
Median pay in 2010: $38,150
Education/training: Master's degree. Some states require public school counselors to have both counseling and teaching certificates and to have had some teaching experience.
Job outlook: Under managed care systems, insurance companies increasingly are providing for reimbursement of counselors as a less costly alternative to psychiatrists and psychologists.

Replacing health psychologists:

24. Health educators

Projected increase in 2020: 36.5 percent
Number employed in 2010: 63,400
Median pay in 2010: $45,830
Education/training: Entry-level health educator positions generally require a bachelor's degree from a health education program.
Job outlook: As health care costs continue to rise, health educators provide cost-effective ways to teach people how to live healthy lives.

Competing with psychologists:

18. Marriage and family therapists

Projected increase in 2020: 41.2 percent
Number employed in 2010: 36,000
Median pay in 2010: $45,720
Education/training: A master's degree usually is required to be licensed or certified as a counselor.
Job outlook: Good, as it is more common for people to seek help for their marital and family problems than it was in the past.

 

[deadweight]

Would i do this again? Of course!

I just pass my Psychology license in California and is currently working for the county.

Look, going i to this field if you are looking for money, then this field isn't for you.

My journey: I got my bachelor in business. I end up working in an entry level mental health position because I am bilingual in english and korean.

I went back to school to get my masters in MFT. So my schedule was hectic. I worked full time, had class three days a week, and had practicum. Life was busy. I wasn't making a lot at my full time job, but it was enough to survive in LA county. Furthermore, I hustled for those two years. After my MFT, i felt I didn't "learn" enough. I wanted more. So while working as an MFT intern (paid master level job) to get my hours for MFT license, I was going for my post-masters Psy. D (3 year program). It is not APA approved.
In psy. d program, I was working full time as an MFT intern, getting my 800 hours of slavey for Psy. D, and going to school full time. I was looking at an 80 hour work/school week. I was doing my 1500 hours pre-doc, working full time, and studying for the MFT license.

The way I see this field is, you never stop learning. Having your own practice is networking and getting your name out there. It is a referral business. It has countless opportunity such as EAP and QME as a license psychologist. You just have to network and learn. You can create and innovate your own job. You can write and sell products. You have a higher chance to get governmenr funding for a non-profit with a psy.d or phd behind your name. Be creative...we are psychologist, so thinj outside the box. Use the process of change and pre comtemplate and work through the process.

In regards to student loans, I got $120k student loan for bachelor/masters/psyd total. I got half of it knocked off because I applied for scholarshops. Cal reach, mental assumption repayment loans, phillip scholarship for mft. There is alot of money out there. You just have to take the time between your dissertation to do this. Money is money.

This field has given me a lot more the. It has taken. I am satisfied and happy. Be authentic and warm with your clients and people in your network. You will go father than most people in this field.

 

[ikibah]

Thanks for bringing back this thread....I just spend a loong time going through it and I am now even happier with my choice of going the MSW route! WORST CASE two years spent building incredible skills.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This thread is/was a great read…I just skimmed through it again.

FWIW…it's 2.5 years later from my posts and I'm still pretty positive (though realistic) about working in the field. One of the most important aspects of my day-to-day work is being able to have flexibility in my schedule and the ability to work (and earn) more/less based on the amount of time I put in. This can be difficult to find in certain settings, but there are jobs out there that allow for this approach. Admittedly, the level of flexibility I require wasn't an easy sell at any of the AMCs that were recruiting me, though it was something I knew was important to me so I don't burn out or get bored. Now if I could only get them to pay for my country club membership….

 

[LAPsyGuy]

My beloved professor said repeatedly that a career in psychology can provide for a happy life as long as you take the oath of poverty. It's obviously an overstatement, but he is right is noting that helping others through providing services, increasing scientific knowledge, and training other clinicians is very satisfying. I'm career changer, so I'm happy to be on somewhat unknown path. Thank you for a wonderful thread. It's very helpful as I prepare to officially enter the field of practice.

 

[erg923]

My beloved professor said repeatedly that a career in psychology can provide for a happy life as long as you take the oath of poverty.

You dont think that advice creates self-fulfilling prophecies, apathy about salary supression and reimbursment cuts, and insults the busines aspect of this profession? Why on earth would you condone this?

You aren't being ordained when you take the licensing exam. You are a professional who should fight for the monetary worth of his/her profession and his/her work. I would emplore you not to spread/promote such nonsense. You can take a povery vow if you wish, but dont tell me I need to too. There is nothing about service to other that requires the servicer to be underpaid and undervalued.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

You dont think that advice creates self-fulfilling prophecies, apathy about salary supression and reimbursment cuts, and insults the busines aspect of this profession? Why on earth would you condone this?

You aren't being ordained when you take the licensing exam. You are a professional who should fight for the monetary worth of his/her profession and his/her work. I would emplore you not to spread/promote such nonsense. You can take a povery vow if you wish, but dont tell me I need to too. There is nothing about service to other that requires the servicer to be underpaid and undervalued.

Like I said, it was an overstatement, and I think what he was trying to say was you won't get rich doing it. It was more of a reflection of his own values (being of service) and of the prevailing societal attitudes towards psychology (relatively low wages when training is accounted for). He worked at the VA and was a PTSD researcher of some note. I think he saw his service in the military the same way.

So, no, I don't think the folk wisdom of a retired professor and humanitarian will result in your over the top concerns. Deep breaths.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

My beloved professor said repeatedly that a career in psychology can provide for a happy life as long as you take the oath of poverty. It's obviously an overstatement, but he is right is noting that helping others through providing services, increasing scientific knowledge, and training other clinicians is very satisfying. I'm career changer, so I'm happy to be on somewhat unknown path. Thank you for a wonderful thread. It's very helpful as I prepare to officially enter the field of practice.

The earning aspect is mostly a function of a person's willingness and ability to pursue more lucrative opportunities. Academia is a tough slog at most places because only the top people (tenured faculty, administrators, and sometimes associate faculty) are making decent money. The APA and gov't workforce data offers good illustrations of the drop off in pay. That being said, academic medicine can be a more financially viable gig…if you don't get crushed by the RVU requirements. Some hospitals have very reasonable RVU requirements, while other places are not worth the hassle. The devil is in the details.

As a second career person, I didn't want to take it on the chin after going through 8yrs of additional schooling, so spent a good deal of time learning the in's and out's of RVUs, trends in the industry, etc. to ensure I didn't get screwed. It isn't a panacea, but there are opportunities to make $100k-$150k/yr and have a nice work/life balance if a person chooses a good speciality area and can negotiate a decent/good package.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Like T4C, just to check back in--I've only been in a "real" job for a little while now (relative to the time spent in training), but as of this moment, I'd definitely do it again, yes. I enjoy my work, my salary and benefits are nothing to sneeze at, I get relatively staggering amounts of autonomy and professional freedom, I get along well with my multidisciplinary colleagues (and they at least appear to value what I do), I'm able to participate in training as much as is desired, and I was able to find a job in a part of the country in which I actually wanted to live. The only downside to where I currently am is that research isn't as continuously-ongoing as it was at my fellowship site, but I'm hoping to change that as I get more integrated.

So now we'll see where things are in another 2 years.

 

[Stannis]

This is my favorite thread, by far. Thanks for the honesty and its resurrection. Is there a similar one for academics?

 

[bburr]

Oy this is one hell of a thread...and good timing to read this right before interviews

Seriously though, I am really appreciative of everyone's responses to help me to be even more in the know and for me to have all these different experiences to read about. I'm also especially grateful I did not apply right out of undergrad, because I would have been in for a rude awakening

 

[Rivi]

I am not really sure. I go back and forth on this a lot. I can't tell you how many times I have ALMOST dropped out, went the med school route, the PA route, etc.

The most rewarding, interesting, and memorable experiences I have had in my career have been side jobs (psychiatric inpatient hospital work) that are completely unrelated to my Ph.D. Those experiences are what made the last couple of years memorable and rewarding, not data crunching, counseling privileged college kids, or helping to publish articles that no one reads or cares about.

I made the above post when I was in grad school, and thought that I would follow-up seeing as this thread got resurrected.

I am a licensed psychologist now, and I will say that I am glad that I chose this path. I like my job (the pay, the work) and the flexibility (research, clinical work, etc.). Psychologists are valuable, and it is very interesting work. I am proud of our profession, and earn a decent living. So all in all, I am glad that I chose this path.