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Would You Go Into Medicine Again? A Psychiatry Perspective

tbn0055

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I am using a throwaway because some colleagues know of my main account and I would prefer them not to see this. A family friend's son is asking me to speak with him about medicine and psychiatry and if I would recommend it.

I have zero regrets about picking psychiatry as a specialty and am enjoying it. I think it was the best possible specialty choice for me, but I am not 100% sure if I would decide to go to medical school again. I am curious what the rest of you feel, and what insights you have to offer, especially since some of you are more experienced than me (I am still in residency). You see threads similar to these in other sub-forums, but I've never seen any psychiatrists take on the matter.

With that said, I am very thankful and truly do believe we are a happier specialty than most... I'm mostly just curious and would like to hear other POV before I speak with him again. For what it's worth, I pretty much never hear anyone regret picking psych... those who it doesn't fit seem to self-select themselves into something else... I am more curious if you would endure medical school and training again for your career in psychiatry knowing what you know today
 
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tbn0055

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I would do it over again. I actually thought about dropping out of medical school for a while in my first year, but I am glad I stuck with it. I think the career I have now is well worth the sacrifices I had to make through medical school and residency.

I actually considered it as well. I feel better now in comparison, and I'm sure I'll feel even better once my loans are paid off, but I was pretty miserable during the majority of medical school. Mostly the feeling of always being behind created some serious anxiety that made it to where I couldn't enjoy the little downtime I had. I realize this is common, but I feel like I experienced it to a greater degree than my peers. Obviously personality is a big aspect of this, and is something I'll have to bring up to him when we have our discussion

Thanks for sharing!
 
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Psychresy

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What other job can you easily get paid in the 300s to work 40 hours a week (potentially from home if you want) and get to do something where you're actually helping improve other people's lives?

I don't see how any job out there beats psychiatry.
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211

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What other job can you easily get paid in the 300s to work 40 hours a week (potentially from home if you want) and get to do something where you're actually helping improve other people's lives?

I don't see how any job out there beats psychiatry.

dermatology gets paid 600k to work 40 hours a week where you’re actually improving people lives, entrepreneurs can get paid 5 million for working 40 hours a week and improving people’s lives so there’s definitely better things out there but you have to choose what’s reasonable and what you enjoy
 
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TexasPhysician

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I’ve really enjoyed the process of med school, residency, pp, and developing my family. It certainly wasn’t a bad choice.

I’ve wondered how my life would have been different if I had chosen a different path at any number of forks in the road.

I have friends who chose different careers, and their lives certainly seem enticing.

Id recommend doing something you enjoy and trying to do it better than anyone else. Psychiatry is a great choice. If I had to choose again, medicine, law, and real estate would be my top 3 to debate.
 
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Having ended up quite successful beyond reasonable expectations makes me say, of course I'd do it again. But the road required tremendous work, perseverance, entrepreneurial spirit, and a little luck being in the right place at the right time.

Growing up I always dreamed of being the next George Lucas or Ridley Scott. Telling epic stories and making them come to life on the big screen. Being a movie director was a hope. But hey, that's a pipe dream you can't really bank on.

I'd also do it again from how psychiatry develops a person, the great insight it has provided to the human condition. I've stepped into the deepest parts of lives, and have had some effect there, mostly positive I'd like to think. Only psychiatrists get to go there. It's a great privilege that allows you to evolve beyond your myopic self.
 
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Psychresy

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dermatology gets paid 600k to work 40 hours a week where you’re actually improving people lives, entrepreneurs can get paid 5 million for working 40 hours a week and improving people’s lives so there’s definitely better things out there but you have to choose what’s reasonable and what you enjoy

That's true. There are probably a select few jobs in medicine that are better than psych. That said, I was mainly speaking to choosing medicine/psych vs. any other non-medicine or non-MD/DO job.
 
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If in my 20s again, I 100% would do med school again and become a psychiatrist again. Obviously crappy parts of training and our job, but despite the downsides hard pressed to find a career elsewhere where you both genuinely feel are helping people and almost guarantees financial stability outside of extreme edge of bell curve bad luck that could ruin you no matter what profession.
 
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I am at the same stage (residency) as you, but I've had to do a little extra reflection as I was a career-changer. The one thing I would say to people considering medicine and/or psychiatry is to be brutally honest with yourself about your priorities for your career and life goals. Ask yourself - what do I value in a job and what can I see myself doing every day? If money is king (as it is for many) there are likely easier/better ways to make the same or more money earlier and without being saddled with $300,000+ of debt. I have many friends who started working right out of college or a short grad program, found a field they enjoyed, and have been able to start a family and start saving money before I even got out of medical school. That being said, I am personally very satisfied with my decision and agree with a lot of the other posters about the psychiatry's unique combination of helping others, intellectual engagement, and financial stability.
 
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unique combination of helping others, intellectual engagement, and financial stability.

That's the holy trinity for me and exactly why I choose medicine over other options. I definitely do not think it is specific to psychiatry and many fields of medicine provide those three things. What is unique to us is what Shuffin describes about promoting our understanding of humanity and being able to better to self evolve via our work.

So many jobs are net-zero or frankly sycophantic of society that earn well, it is a real blessing to actually output positive force into the world while still being paid well.
 
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nexus73

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I am at the same stage (residency) as you, but I've had to do a little extra reflection as I was a career-changer. The one thing I would say to people considering medicine and/or psychiatry is to be brutally honest with yourself about your priorities for your career and life goals. Ask yourself - what do I value in a job and what can I see myself doing every day? If money is king (as it is for many) there are likely easier/better ways to make the same or more money earlier and without being saddled with $300,000+ of debt. I have many friends who started working right out of college or a short grad program, found a field they enjoyed, and have been able to start a family and start saving money before I even got out of medical school. That being said, I am personally very satisfied with my decision and agree with a lot of the other posters about the psychiatry's unique combination of helping others, intellectual engagement, and financial stability.

I've heard this said, but don't know if I agree. You can definitely avoid the debt by skipping medical school, but I don't know another career that provides essentially the guarantee of $200K+ per year, as long as you are smart enough and can endure the grueling duration of training (which many are not or cannot). Obviously people make as much and more than psychiatrists without extreme school debt, but I think this is nowhere near as guaranteed. You'll just as likely be stuck in some corporate waste land middle management or computer programming job making low to mid $100K maybe (half what a psychiatrist makes), but then being stuck having to live in a larger metro area with high cost of living, long commute, etc, most likely. And to make more money in business you'll probably need to either be selling something or managing people or both, which is not a requirement at all for being a well paid doctor. And sales and management are two things many people absolutely hate.
 
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When is graduation again?

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I definitely would not redo this. You couldn't pay me to redo medical school. I personally would go into tech, entrepreneurship, or be a chef. I wouldn't mind taking a pay cut tbh, as I plan to live frugally anyway.

Residency has been variable, but overall I like it. Psychiatry was 100% the right decision for me. My hope is that as an attending the increased freedom, autonomy, and flexibility is where this really pays off. Plus with my attending salary and continuing to live like a resident, it will open up other avenues for business and possible politics.
 
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box8psych

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I've heard this said, but don't know if I agree. You can definitely avoid the debt by skipping medical school, but I don't know another career that provides essentially the guarantee of $200K+ per year, as long as you are smart enough and can endure the grueling duration of training (which many are not or cannot). Obviously people make as much and more than psychiatrists without extreme school debt, but I think this is nowhere near as guaranteed. You'll just as likely be stuck in some corporate waste land middle management or computer programming job making low to mid $100K maybe (half what a psychiatrist makes), but then being stuck having to live in a larger metro area with high cost of living, long commute, etc, most likely. And to make more money in business you'll probably need to either be selling something or managing people or both, which is not a requirement at all for being a well paid doctor. And sales and management are two things many people absolutely hate.

I agree if one were to look at the general population, but I think this calculus changes somewhat since we're talking about a self-selected population of people who are intellectually capable and high-achieving enough to be a competitive for medical school. I am certainly biased by my aforementioned friends' paths in life (entrepreneur, lawyer, real estate, etc) but I do wholeheartedly believe that if any of us were to put the amount of time and effort spent on becoming MDs into another field, we would have no issue meeting or even exceeding our projected incomes. Obviously ever field comes with it's own set of drawbacks, and your point is well taken regarding our job and income security. I was really just highlighting this point as a means to stress to younger people that medicine is something one should pursue only if it truly matches your priorities since we become pretty pot-committed by way of the debt we take on (with rare exceptions).
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211

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No, I wouldn't do it again because once is enough :)
Seriously though, medical school and psych residency is less work than any post-college job I've ever had.

med school and residency are less than typical jobs? Ok let’s not start making stuff up..unless you were an investment banker working 70+ hours a week, Med school and residency are likely going to be more difficult than that..
 
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Also just a resident but I'd do it again, especially if I knew I'd be going into psych and ending up where I'm at. People have mentioned the perks of the field, but the genuine need for mental health professionals/job security and the flexibility in terms of what one can do are very rare when you take that in consideration with the pay. Even with massive debt, the long term stability at this time makes it an easy decision for me. I also felt that my second year of med school was by far the worst year of this whole process and every year since then has gotten better and better, so may be some bias there.

If not psych I'd probably have done something with accounting. Math comes pretty easy to me and several of my college friends had jobs straight out of college that paid $75K+ with decent opportunity to advance. Have that salary at 22 yo with only $20k in debt is a pretty good deal as well.
 
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Candidate2017

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med school and residency are less than typical jobs? Ok let’s not start making stuff up..unless you were an investment banker working 70+ hours a week, Med school and residency are likely going to be more difficult than that..

I didn't compare med school/psych residency to a "typical job". Just compared to MY post-college jobs.

But if you want to go there, medical school and psych residency is not that demanding even compared to "typical jobs". I estimate I spent 40-60 hrs a week in med school and "work" 40-50 hrs in residency, aside from a handful of months in IM, neuro etc.

There's plenty of down time that's not even "work" such as didactics, no shows, correcting a random stranger on SDN etc.
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211

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I didn't compare med school/psych residency to a "typical job". Just compared to MY post-college jobs.

But if you want to go there, medical school and psych residency is not that demanding even compared to "typical jobs". I estimate I spent 40-60 hrs a week in med school and "work" 40-50 hrs in residency, aside from a handful of months in IM, neuro etc.

There's plenty of down time that's not even "work" such as didactics, no shows, correcting a random stranger on SDN etc.

what you’re saying is misleading for the younger people reading. Expect to work 60 hours per week or more during Med school and residency, if in pgy3/4 you’re working less that’s great but to suggest that Med school and residency are 40 hour per week endeavors like other typical office jobs is just setting oneself up for failure for the average Med student.
 
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Stagg737

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But if you want to go there, medical school and psych residency is not that demanding even compared to "typical jobs".

Eh, I'd strongly disagree about the med school portion other than 4th year. First 3 years were far more work and stress than the few "typical" jobs I held before med school (non-trad). You may have had a different experience, but most med students/residents I know who have graduated in the past 10 years would disagree with you. I do agree with the psych residency part though. For the majority of psych residencies I'd say it's mostly on par with a "typical" job but has the perk of a massive pay raise once complete. Worst part imo is overnight call, but plenty of people work night shifts, so not a huge deal when kept in perspective.

what you’re saying is misleading for the younger people reading. Expect to work 60 hours per week or more during Med school and residency, if in pgy3/4 you’re working less that’s great but to suggest that Med school and residency are 40 hour per week endeavors like other typical office jobs is just setting oneself up for failure for the average Med student.

To the bolded, med school sure. IM and select rotations in psych I had 60+ hour weeks. I'd say most weeks are under 60 hours though even in the first 2 years of residency. To give you an idea, I just checked my hours log and for the second 6 months of my PGY-2 year I averaged 46.5 hours per week. That's also our most difficult year in terms of call as well. I'd say 45-55hrs/week is probably a typical average for psychiatry until PGY-4 when that will likely drop off significantly.
 
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Candidate2017

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Eh, I'd strongly disagree about the med school portion other than 4th year. First 3 years were far more work and stress than the few "typical" jobs I held before med school (non-trad). You may have had a different experience, but most med students/residents I know who have graduated in the past 10 years would disagree with you. I do agree with the psych residency part though. For the majority of psych residencies I'd say it's mostly on par with a "typical" job but has the perk of a massive pay raise once complete. Worst part imo is overnight call, but plenty of people work night shifts, so not a huge deal when kept in perspective.



To the bolded, med school sure. IM and select rotations in psych I had 60+ hour weeks. I'd say most weeks are under 60 hours though even in the first 2 years of residency. To give you an idea, I just checked my hours log and for the second 6 months of my PGY-2 year I averaged 46.5 hours per week. That's also our most difficult year in terms of call as well. I'd say 45-55hrs/week is probably a typical average for psychiatry until PGY-4 when that will likely drop off significantly.

Most "typical" jobs can be full of stress (uncertainty, competition, layoffs, demanding bosses). I had a neighbor who has a family of 4, who works 2 jobs nights and weekends as a janitor cleaning hospitals and nursing homes.

Prior to med school/residency, I worked about 6 days a week. Med school was a nice break and not that demanding to me, but I can see how it may be anxiety provoking to some who go straight from college or have never had a career type job. In pre-clinicals I was in control over my schedule and had a regular study schedule. I did envy some of my classmates who took off for vacations mid-semester, and some others crammed. In 3rd year, OB-GYN and surgery were a bit demanding. So maybe 2 somewhat demanding months, maybe anatomy too. Overall, I now work way less than my family members who have "typical" jobs, and it's been great.
 
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Devil's advocate: what if said person does not like psychiatry? Medicine on the whole is terrible.

I cannot recommend EM, primary care, Ob-Gyn, or Surgery to anyone. IM is full of boring lifeless dweebs.

It’s true; I’ve never been around a more boring group of people than in med school. Sure they’re smart and have done interesting things, but medicine seems to self select baseline dull personalities and then somehow make them even more so.
 
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It’s true; I’ve never been around a more boring group of people than in med school. Sure they’re smart and have done interesting things, but medicine seems to self select baseline dull personalities and then somehow make them even more so.
YES YES YES. I spend time with some of the music grad students on the humanities side of our campus and I'm always shocked at how much more fun and vibrant they are.

I cannot recommend EM, primary care, Ob-Gyn, or Surgery to anyone. IM is full of boring lifeless dweebs.
I distinctly remember a practice question (Lange?) where the prompt was something like, "A medical student fails to match into his desired specialty and tells his friends that those people are boring nerds anyways. What defense mechanism?" I chuckled seeing it come up again here.
 
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TexasPhysician

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It’s true; I’ve never been around a more boring group of people than in med school. Sure they’re smart and have done interesting things, but medicine seems to self select baseline dull personalities and then somehow make them even more so.

Your N is too small. I had a blast with no shortage of entertaining stories.
 
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YES YES YES. I spend time with some of the music grad students on the humanities side of our campus and I'm always shocked at how much more fun and vibrant they are.


I distinctly remember a practice question (Lange?) where the prompt was something like, "A medical student fails to match into his desired specialty and tells his friends that those people are boring nerds anyways. What defense mechanism?" I chuckled seeing it come up again here.

Sour grapes
 
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calvnandhobbs68

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med school and residency are less than typical jobs? Ok let’s not start making stuff up..unless you were an investment banker working 70+ hours a week, Med school and residency are likely going to be more difficult than that..

Psych residency is a joke compared to most other residency programs. 3rd and 4th years barely break 40 hours a week in most programs (and that’s including lectures and academic stuff) and 4th year is basically a throwaway year in the vast majority of programs where you just sit around doing electives and reading in your office half the day. No need to pretend you did a gen surg residency. It’s a benefit not a drawback.

Go ask the guys working at an amazon warehouse for 17 bucks an hour what their days are like and then compare it to your typical residency (or even med school) day. I see several of them in clinic...so I know very well what their day is like. It’s definitely harder than mine.
 
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dermatology gets paid 600k to work 40 hours a week where you’re actually improving people lives, entrepreneurs can get paid 5 million for working 40 hours a week and improving people’s lives so there’s definitely better things out there but you have to choose what’s reasonable and what you enjoy
At my place my attendings make 450 working 40hrs/ week. I’d rather do 40 hours of inpatient psychiatry stabilizing people in crisis then gruelingly doing procedures. But to each there own. And just lol at this stupid argument that’s touted around here about CEOs making tons of money in business comparing it to medicine. I’m not attacking you personally, it’s repeated a lot all over SDN. I hate to break it to you kids but 99% of doctors don’t have what it takes the be a CEO/entrepreneur. It was never an option for you. Lmao, MFers can’t even run a single clinic.
 
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I don't know if I could see my life having gone differently. I was pretty set on medicine. With retrospective goggles, I might have been an even better fit in tech. But I like where I landed. We'll see how I like a more consistent outpatient grind with my first attending job starting next week.
 
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nexus73

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At my place my attendings make 450 working 40hrs/ week. I’d rather do 40 hours of inpatient psychiatry stabilizing people in crisis then gruelingly doing procedures. But to each there own. And just lol at this stupid argument that’s touted around here about CEOs making tons of money in business comparing it to medicine. I’m not attacking you personally, it’s repeated a lot all over SDN. I hate to break it to you kids but 99% of doctors don’t have what it takes the be a CEO/entrepreneur. It was never an option for you. Lmao, MFers can’t even run a single clinic.
Is the 450 based on RVUs or salary, and how many patients a day are they seeing?
 
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It’s true; I’ve never been around a more boring group of people than in med school. Sure they’re smart and have done interesting things, but medicine seems to self select baseline dull personalities and then somehow make them even more so.

Your N is too small. I had a blast with no shortage of entertaining stories.

Gonna have to agree with @TexasPhysician. I actually find that with people going into art/music, the variance is much higher. There is a large contingent there of people who have "issues" (i.e. ADHD, substance abuse) such that they aren't cognitively "with it" enough to follow conversations, which makes it difficult to engage. Personality-wise they also lean unreliable, which makes it hard to follow through and develop a relationship, especially if you are a parent. Problem with MDs is mainly similar for problems with other people with consumptively high demand jobs: it's difficult for them to talk about anything outside of work, since there is little outside of work. However, if you explain something in a clear way, they usually have enough cognitive ability to follow and engage with the conversation. They also tend to be highly reliable: if you make a date, they rarely flake on you, which is an aspect I really appreciate.

I don't know if I could see my life having gone differently. I was pretty set on medicine. With retrospective goggles, I might have been an even better fit in tech. But I like where I landed. We'll see how I like a more consistent outpatient grind with my first attending job starting next week.

1. Tech career starting at undergrad level is pretty tough, IMO not a very good job. 2. You can still play around with tech stuff now...that's definitely a growing area.
 
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To me, people are dull not because they are unpredictable, but because they lack *depth*.
I’m going to have to agree with @Old&InTheWay. The quoted describes the majority of my med school classmates and seems to be applicable to a fair number of attendings and residents I’ve encountered throughout med school and residency. What really gets me the blandness in sense of humor, taking everything literally, and being completely oblivious to sarcasm.
 
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sluox

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I’m going to have to agree with @Old&InTheWay. The quoted describes the majority of my med school classmates and seems to be applicable to a fair number of attendings and residents I’ve encountered throughout med school and residency. What really gets me the blandness in sense of humor, taking everything literally, and being completely oblivious to sarcasm.

I suppose as I get older the conversational tit-for-tat becomes less interesting to me. To a certain extent, I think what you are seeing is people don't have time to engage with games of judgment. Maybe what you are seeing is that people don't *care enough* to acknowledge your sarcasm. You probably also think that people in senior management are boring, but the reality is that they are just interested in different things than you are.
 
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Having ended up quite successful beyond reasonable expectations makes me say, of course I'd do it again. But the road required tremendous work, perseverance, entrepreneurial spirit, and a little luck being in the right place at the right time.

Growing up I always dreamed of being the next George Lucas or Ridley Scott. Telling epic stories and making them come to life on the big screen. Being a movie director was a hope. But hey, that's a pipe dream you can't really bank on.

I'd also do it again from how psychiatry develops a person, the great insight it has provided to the human condition. I've stepped into the deepest parts of lives, and have had some effect there, mostly positive I'd like to think. Only psychiatrists get to go there. It's a great privilege that allows you to evolve beyond your myopic self.

I love film as well and the less rational side of me thought of doing it as a career. I spent a lot of time in college with my camera shooting music videos and the like. Once I pay off all of my loans I actually hope to take some time and pursue filmmaking as a serious side hobby... I'll start with the local film festivals and see what happens from there
 
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I would definitely do it again. Agree that the combination that helping others, intellectual stimulation, and extreme financial stability are important to me. I also had a pretty cohesive medical school and residency program which made the training that much more enjoyable.

I don't think that choosing medicine necessarily negates that other career paths may resulted in an equal amount of satisfaction. I think a false dichotomy exists here. An analogy would be asking myself, "Would I be more satisfied with sushi or with pasta for dinner?" Probably both, in different ways.
 
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I've heard this said, but don't know if I agree. You can definitely avoid the debt by skipping medical school, but I don't know another career that provides essentially the guarantee of $200K+ per year, as long as you are smart enough and can endure the grueling duration of training (which many are not or cannot). Obviously people make as much and more than psychiatrists without extreme school debt, but I think this is nowhere near as guaranteed. You'll just as likely be stuck in some corporate waste land middle management or computer programming job making low to mid $100K maybe (half what a psychiatrist makes), but then being stuck having to live in a larger metro area with high cost of living, long commute, etc, most likely. And to make more money in business you'll probably need to either be selling something or managing people or both, which is not a requirement at all for being a well paid doctor. And sales and management are two things many people absolutely hate.

The actual salary part is not as important as you think. When you take into account the amount of compound interest you miss out during school and paying back loans it takes a long time to catch up unless you're in the upper echelon of physician incomes. Obviously you will still come out ahead of most, but you have to compare yourself the others who were similar to you in college and are diligent about their investing. For those with mid 100k salaries, you might not come out ahead until you're about 50... which is about the age people start lowering their spending anyways. I do agree though, it is definitely the more risk-averse option.

The biggest advantage to being a psychiatrist imo is stability (pretty much always jobs available), location (can live pretty much wherever), meaningful work, and longevity... meaning even though it takes a long time to catch up, you can do this job well into old age part-time. You won't get fired at 60 like most other professionals do
 
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tbn0055

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I didn't compare med school/psych residency to a "typical job". Just compared to MY post-college jobs.

But if you want to go there, medical school and psych residency is not that demanding even compared to "typical jobs". I estimate I spent 40-60 hrs a week in med school and "work" 40-50 hrs in residency, aside from a handful of months in IM, neuro etc.

There's plenty of down time that's not even "work" such as didactics, no shows, correcting a random stranger on SDN etc.

That's interesting. What were your post-college jobs? You may not agree, but medical school was very draining for me. I might have spent a similar amount of time studying as I would've been working... but I think there's a difference spending 10 hours with your brain having to be completely 'on' memorizing things the whole time, than there is spending 10 hours doing tasks you already know how to do.. The first required more brain power and more rest time to recuperate. Of course in my previous office job I had to be 'on' sometimes, but there were a lot of tasks I could have complete sleepy or hungover. That's my experience. Thanks for sharing
 
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tbn0055

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Devil's advocate: what if said person does not like psychiatry? Medicine on the whole is terrible.

I cannot recommend EM, primary care, Ob-Gyn, or Surgery to anyone. IM is full of boring lifeless dweebs.

I feel like most people who wouldn't like psych seem to self-select themselves for something else. Since psych patients are so different I think most people that apply really enjoy the patient population... then there's a lot of different avenues for psych that accommodate different personalities within the field. Because of that I think psych is one of the happier fields of medicine

Because of that, I'll probably recommend that he gets a summer job as a tech or something at a local behavior hospital to see if he can get along with the patient population. It's hard to shadow psych otherwise.
 
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tbn0055

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It’s true; I’ve never been around a more boring group of people than in med school. Sure they’re smart and have done interesting things, but medicine seems to self select baseline dull personalities and then somehow make them even more so.

I hate to admit it but I agree. The group I hung around before med school was very interesting and active. I still made good friends in med school but at the end of the day the majority of them defined themselves around the fact that they were med students and didn't have much anything else to show for it. I will say though, psych (in my experience), is one of the better ones though
 
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tbn0055

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Psych residency is a joke compared to most other residency programs. 3rd and 4th years barely break 40 hours a week in most programs (and that’s including lectures and academic stuff) and 4th year is basically a throwaway year in the vast majority of programs where you just sit around doing electives and reading in your office half the day. No need to pretend you did a gen surg residency. It’s a benefit not a drawback.

Go ask the guys working at an amazon warehouse for 17 bucks an hour what their days are like and then compare it to your typical residency (or even med school) day. I see several of them in clinic...so I know very well what their day is like. It’s definitely harder than mine.

To be fair, there's a huge difference in physical and mental difficulty... One of my closest buddies worked at the UPS warehouse in college. His work was physically tough, but he was always mentally drained after studying for physics and could barely stand it. He ended up changing his major because it was so difficult for him, but he kept his UPS job...

For someone who was really really smart, the UPS job might've been harder... but for him it wasn't
 
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