Would you rather have a UT Southwestern or Baylor student?

[DAdams]

Hi, I had the fortune of being admitted to both these medical schools and am having trouble deciding between the two. The location and cost of both schools are roughly equivalent. The training, however, I heard was focused differently.

Baylor seems to have a more progressive curriculum. I also heard from MS4's on the interview trail that UTSW medical students are more highly regarded when it comes to residencies due to their rigorous training at Parkland when compared to Baylor who has been known to be softer during 3rd/4th years.

I've posted this in the pre-allo and researched in the allo threads, but it's hard to find unbiased opinions on the pre-allo threads where premed students can't stop kissing US News's *** (pardon my French). I'm interested in residents' opinions on this matter. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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[Winged Scapula]

I would say from a strictly reputation POV, UTSW does have a slight edge, especially for surgical specialties but for residency, not for the medical school.

Reputation of course is not usually a significant factor in decisions about residency (ie, your USMLE scores and LORs, evals will be much more important) so you should not choose your school based on "name" factor.

There are a few residents at both places roaming around here, perhaps they will chime in.

 

[roja]

This is going to depend marginally on what specialty you choose. More important is to not pick a school based on name and perception. Both are highly regarded schools. So, pick whatever school 'fit' you best... do not underestimate the importance of your happiness in medical school. If you are happier in medical school---->do better in medical school----->better evals and LOR's------>more competitive residency applicant.

In truth, I would care which school they went to. I would care much more about someone absorbed in the 'name' game (hard to avoid in the pre-allo, realize that it is ridiculously inflated concept)

 

[DAdams]

In truth, I would care which school they went to. I would care much more about someone absorbed in the 'name' game (hard to avoid in the pre-allo, realize that it is ridiculously inflated concept)

Wait you would or would not?

 

[cabruen]

Disclaimer, I am from UTSW.

Both are excellent schools. Your medical education and future residency will depend far far more on your performance in medical school than the difference between these two schools. Therefore, your decision should rest not on the reputation of the schools, but on their 'personalities', and if you would rather live in Dallas or Houston.

 

[johnnywalker]

.

 

[roja]

Wait you would or would not?

I *would* be more concerned about a med student who was really caught up in the name game. What most people want, in the end, in residency is someone who works hard and who is part of a team. Doesn't really matter what specialty. Good people skills are crucial.

So, I would take a smart med student from a less prestigious school who had LOR's etc that showed they were good team workers, etc over a smart med student from a prestigious school who was a name dropping boob.

(Not that the OP is this....just name can help but it is no gaurantee. I have seen horrible med students/residents from 'fancy' med schools and awesome med students/residents from less 'fancy' schools).

 

[roja]

Baylor Medical School is in Houston. Baylor hospital is in Dallas which has some residencies.
Baylor MS has a nontraditional 18 month basic science curricula

UTSW is in Dallas.
UTSW has a more traditional curricula

 

[Winged Scapula]

The very important point Dr. roja is making bears repeating:

- name dropping is rampant amongst pre-meds
- it is not nearly as important to your future residency placement, your residency colleagues or PDs, especially if you are, as she puts it, a "name dropping boob"

We get asked this every year and the answer is always the same, regardless of what the pre-meds continue to blather about. If you were choosing between Harvard and Podunk Medical School that's a different story, but most people aren't. Go to the medical school you think you fit best into.

 

[cabruen]

The history of Baylor and UTSW is a fascinating and is little known outside of Texas.

Baylor University (private Baptist university located in Waco, Texas) founded the University of Dallas Medical Department (precursor to Baylor College of Medicine) in Dallas, TX in 1903.

By the end of WWII, the school was floundering, and a group of super-rich Houston Oil-men offered land and money to Baylor University to move its medical school from Dallas to Houston. The regents of Baylor University accepted the offer, but the Dallas rich socialites and faculty of medical school fought the move bitterly. In late 1943, Baylor University ordered that secretly at night everything be packed up at the medical school and was moved to Houston. This left behind all of the faculty, students, and most importantly the hospital (Baylor University Hospital).

The elites of Dallas were furious, and quickly moved to formed another medical, known as Southwestern Medical College out of handful of abandoned military barracks. By 1949, it became part of the The University of Texas System, and today is UTSW. It quickly developed close relation with Parkland hospital and gradually loosened ties the Baylor University Hospital.

In 1963, Baylor University divested itself from Baylor College of Medicine.

So today you have:

Baylor University Medical Center (Dallas, TX) -- large private hospital, running one of the largest health care plans in Texas. Has always considered itself an academic center, given its history. It was several residency programs, and but is only a peripheral site for UTSW medical students.

Baylor College of Medicine (Houston, TX) -- Premier medical school part of the Texas Medical Center, but has no legal ties the other Baylor institutions. Not part of the University of Texas System.

Baylor University (Waco, TX) -- a top university in Texas, but also not associated with either the Medical School, the University Hospital, or the Health Plan.

Baylor Health Care System (Multiple) -- Multi-site hospital system and health care plan.

 

[TexPre-Med]

As a TX resident, Baylor wins hands down. I would say UTSW and UTMB would be tied for second. UTSW has better residency programs, but Baylor has the better medical school.

 

[Danbo1957]

Over the years I have had dozens of residents from both schools work for me - there is no real difference or advantage in education over the other. SW has a much more distinguished post graduate program though. And as mentioned above, surgery is highlighted at SW.

But, Baylor puts out primary care talent every year. And, Baylor is building a new hospital and medical campus in 2011.

It gets down to the oldest of questions for Texans, do you want to live in Dallas or Houston?

 

[DAdams]

As a TX resident, Baylor wins hands down. I would say UTSW and UTMB would be tied for second. UTSW has better residency programs, but Baylor has the better medical school.

What aspects are you considering in your assessment? And, no offense, but I was hoping to get opinions from residents or attendings who have gone through the match process. I've had enough of the pre-allo mentality on this subject.

Over the years I have had dozens of residents from both schools work for me - there is no real difference or advantage in education over the other. SW has a much more distinguished post graduate program though. And as mentioned above, surgery is highlighted at SW.

But, Baylor puts out primary care talent every year. And, Baylor is building a new hospital and medical campus in 1011.

It gets down to the oldest of questions for Texans, do you want to live in Dallas or Houston?

I guess my question is - does going to a school that has those good post graduate programs give me an advantage over a school that doesn't? Or to put it more bluntly, if you had two applicants with nearly identical credentials except one trained at UTSW and the other at Baylor, which one would you perceive to be the stronger applicant?

 

[TexPre-Med]

What aspects are you considering in your assessment? And, no offense, but I was hoping to get opinions from residents or attendings who have gone through the match process. I've had enough of the pre-allo mentality on this subject.




I guess my question is - does going to a school that has those good post graduate programs give me an advantage over a school that doesn't? Or to put it more bluntly, if you had two applicants with nearly identical credentials except one trained at UTSW and the other at Baylor, which one would you perceive to be the stronger applicant?

With identical credentials, it won't matter. Baylor gets my nod because IMO they have a better match list and they have higher Step scores.

 

[Danbo1957]

Baylor has the med school advantage over UTSW. If all other things are considered equal, I'd give an edge to the Baylor med school grad for Medicine residency.

 

[RTrain]

I guess my question is - does going to a school that has those good post graduate programs give me an advantage over a school that doesn't? Or to put it more bluntly, if you had two applicants with nearly identical credentials except one trained at UTSW and the other at Baylor, which one would you perceive to be the stronger applicant?

I think what everyone is getting at (and I echo) is that at the heart of it, you will not be getting enough of a prestige boost from one or the other to really matter. I would let go of the minutiae of which is incrementally "better" and pick the one that you like best. I can tell you this - I went to a med school with an innovative curriculum similar to the one in place at Baylor, and I LOVED it. Given the opportunity to go back, I'd still choose my school again and again.

However... last year about this time a student who worked at the hospital where I'm training had a similar happy dilemma - he was accepted to med school at two outstanding schools, one of which had a slightly bigger "name" than the other but which were really equivalent in terms of education. He asked around to all the residents and attendings, and everyone said the same thing that you're hearing here: that he should pick the place that he'd be happiest. Over time it became clear that he wasn't really asking for advice - he was angling to hear that he should go to the bigger name school. That's what he really wanted and what mattered to him, and he was looking for someone to back up the decision he really had already made.

So if you're wanting to be told that you should go to UTSW (not that this is what you're doing necessarily, but the second asking of the same question seems a little loaded...), then by all means go there. Yes, it does have a little bit more prestige associated with it, but as others have noted, that prestige is more from its residency training than the medical school itself. But if you perceive that it is better, and that better-ness is what will make you happy with your choice, then that is the choice you should make. We just are pointing you toward another way of thinking about it.

 

[Danbo1957]

The best of both worlds: go to Baylor for med school and residency at Parkland. That is the Texas equivalent of the East Coast: Johns Hopkins for med school and Beth Israel Deaconess for residency.

Obviously the Baylor/Parkland duo is rare, maybe one or two matches a year?

 

[DAdams]

I think what everyone is getting at (and I echo) is that at the heart of it, you will not be getting enough of a prestige boost from one or the other to really matter. I would let go of the minutiae of which is incrementally "better" and pick the one that you like best. I can tell you this - I went to a med school with an innovative curriculum similar to the one in place at Baylor, and I LOVED it. Given the opportunity to go back, I'd still choose my school again and again.

However... last year about this time a student who worked at the hospital where I'm training had a similar happy dilemma - he was accepted to med school at two outstanding schools, one of which had a slightly bigger "name" than the other but which were really equivalent in terms of education. He asked around to all the residents and attendings, and everyone said the same thing that you're hearing here: that he should pick the place that he'd be happiest. Over time it became clear that he wasn't really asking for advice - he was angling to hear that he should go to the bigger name school. That's what he really wanted and what mattered to him, and he was looking for someone to back up the decision he really had already made.

So if you're wanting to be told that you should go to UTSW (not that this is what you're doing necessarily, but the second asking of the same question seems a little loaded...), then by all means go there. Yes, it does have a little bit more prestige associated with it, but as others have noted, that prestige is more from its residency training than the medical school itself. But if you perceive that it is better, and that better-ness is what will make you happy with your choice, then that is the choice you should make. We just are pointing you toward another way of thinking about it.

Thanks for all of your feedbacks, I guess I was trying to confirm an impression that I got from some medical students (outside of Texas) that Southwestern students were favored on the interview trail because of their sloggin during clinical years. Some students were saying that outside of Texas, program directors and attendings love to have Southwestern grads because of their strong clinical training. I of course will admit that Baylor's curriculum is innovative and more laid back, but at the end of the day I just want to be sure that all that laid-backness won't hurt me.

 

[RTrain]

Thanks for all of your feedbacks, I guess I was trying to confirm an impression that I got from some medical students (outside of Texas) that Southwestern students were favored on the interview trail because of their sloggin during clinical years. Some students were saying that outside of Texas, program directors and attendings love to have Southwestern grads because of their strong clinical training. I of course will admit that Baylor's curriculum is innovative and more laid back, but at the end of the day I just want to be sure that all that laid-backness won't hurt me.

Ah, I see. No, I don't really think it would hurt you - I don't know anyone who identifies Baylor as "laid-back" in a bad way. It's definitely a good and respected institution.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I don't think Baylor's innovativeness will hurt you as long as you do well in whatever curriculum you choose.

Bear in mind that faculty impressions of programs are generally based on personal experience and hearsay. Outside of the state of Texas you will find few people who really know the difference between the programs (except in surgery, especially PRS, where PRS is a powerhouse and recognized as such, as I noted above).

Go whereever you are comfortable. I will not make a significant difference.

 

[roja]

It gets down to the oldest of questions for Texans, do you want to live in Dallas or Houston?

*dies laughing* this is so true. When I applied to school in texas, I believed (and after many years, still do) that all the med schools put out good students and the occasional not so great. It really comes down to where you want to live.

I was accepted at Baylor and UTHSCSA (my first choice, rebelliously above UTSW). I really didn't want to live in houston so I ended up at UTHSCSA and I haven't regretted it a day.

I have one friend who picked UTSW for name alone, despite really hating dallas. He was miserable for four years and it showed in his performance.

 

[cabruen]

It gets down to the oldest of questions for Texans, do you want to live in Dallas or Houston?

I thought the oldest question for Texans was Aggie or Longhorn?

I personally think that if there is hell on Earth, it is Harris county. But others might feel differently.

Either way though, I'd rather lay on the dirt in Texas, than on a velvet couch somewhere else.

 

[Blade28]

Go whereever you are comfortable. I will not make a significant difference.

Exactly. I agree.

In the end, for schools like these that are similar, it really only matters how well the STUDENT performs - rock Step 1, do well on your MS-III rotations, get good letters of recommendation, etc.

Pre-meds tend to compare schools' names, Match lists, Step 1 scores, US News rankings, etc. as if there were a way to "figure out" which one was "better."

Go where you fit in the best - the school that has the most characteristics/qualities that you're looking for. No need to try and predict the future (e.g. "When I apply to Texas residencies in 4 years, which will look better?").

 

[DAdams]

Thanks for everyone's advice! I'm going to the 2nd look for one of the schools and planning on sitting in a class for the other to try to get the best feel of what life at those schools will be like. Hopefully that will help me reach a final decision. On another note, I can't believe it's almost May...I've been dealing with this decision for a month and a half now...I'm such a wuss.

 

[roja]

Here's an old test that I have heard others do and it sums up best how to make this decision (aka how to go with your gut).


Take a coin, assign each place a side, throw high in the air, catch and cover. Whichever school you were hoping for most to be the winner while it was spinning in the air is the school you should pick.

(insert same for residency choice)

 

[drfunktacular]

Just go to UTMB.

Beaches, 5 minute bike-ride to the hospital, excellent community feeling and social life, good residents/faculty/students, and my class' average step 1 score was ~230's.

Also some pretty decent residency matches this year, including PRS at Parkland: http://wahoo.utmb.edu/PDFs/MatchDay2008.pdf

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

UTMB does do well with the PRS match.

The other real upside about Galveston is you can take care of you very own prisoners. Huge turn off for me with residency interviews. But anyway just a small aside.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Pardon my ignorance of things Texan, but if Baylor is a private medical college, and UTSW is part of the UT system, is there a tuition differential?
Because if there is, I just want to chime in on my favorite subject--MINIMIZE YOUR DEBT!!!

 

[drfunktacular]

UTMB does do well with the PRS match.

The other real upside about Galveston is you can take care of you very own prisoners. Huge turn off for me with residency interviews. But anyway just a small aside.

Actually, as most/everyone here will tell you, working in the TDCJ (prison) hospital is one of the best educational experiences we get here; it serves ~100,000 Texas prisoners, and they have some CRAZY pathologies that you would probably rarely/never see otherwise. In addition, the social/economic/staffing realities are such that residents are given large amounts of autonomy over their patients there (so in that sense, yes, they are "your very own"). It's an underrated experience.

 

[Dr Serenity]

Pardon my ignorance of things Texan, but if Baylor is a private medical college, and UTSW is part of the UT system, is there a tuition differential?
Because if there is, I just want to chime in on my favorite subject--MINIMIZE YOUR DEBT!!!

Just looked it up...there is in fact minimal, if any, tuition differential between the two schools. Even though Baylor is private, they charge differently for in-state vs out-of-state students, just like the public colleges.

That being said, minimizing your debt is a good thing.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Actually, as most/everyone here will tell you, working in the TDCJ (prison) hospital is one of the best educational experiences we get here; it serves ~100,000 Texas prisoners, and they have some CRAZY pathologies that you would probably rarely/never see otherwise. In addition, the social/economic/staffing realities are such that residents are given large amounts of autonomy over their patients there (so in that sense, yes, they are "your very own"). It's an underrated experience.

So I heard... I just didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling about working on cons. I'm sure I take care of them some as it is but just not my idea of a good time. I'll just have to miss some of the pathology.

Don't hear me talking down about Galveston. Friend of mine went there and lived in one of the med school frat houses. Seemed to enjoy that a lot. It is a well thought of hospital. Just didn't really work for me when I interviewed, that's all.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I thought the question in Texas was Ribeye or T-Bone?

Forget Dallas or Houston... I wouldn't choose to live in either.

I'd look MUCH harder at all the other schools... like UTSA, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, or UTMB at the top of my lists.

If none of them accepted you, I would probably take Dallas over Houston as much of the greater Dallas area is clean/new and probably just a touch cheaper to live than Houston. I would shoot myself if I had to go to the Houston med center every day for the next 4 years! Parkland would suck, but not nearly as bad as Houston.

Of course in Lubbock, I had a brick home <2 miles from the hospital and parked within a couple hundred feet of the doorway on the level (no parking garage). Priceless IMHO...

 

[DocPsychosis]

You all seem to be leaving out the best of the lot, UT-Houston . Ideal placement in the TMC without private medical school asshat-ery. Plus, UTSW kids are all contemplating suicide by the end of the first semester, and Baylorites can't clinical skills themselves out of a paper bag.

And EM_Rebuilder, there's no way rent/property in Dallas is cheaper than Houston. I'm no fan boy, but I have to admit that's the one thing it has going for it. And the Medical Center is a thing of glory.

 

[orientedtoself]

neither. as they say in full metal jacket. . .

 

[drfunktacular]

neither. as they say in full metal jacket. . .

Yes, but remember what happened to the guy that said it...

 

[flumazenil]

Granted I am only a medical student, but if i had to pick, i would want any student that WANTS to be there ( aka hospital/work). I value enthusiasm, commitment to learn, and sincerity to medicine far more than the name of the school that appears on the students white coat.

 

[roja]

Granted I am only a medical student, but if i had to pick, i would want any student that WANTS to be there ( aka hospital/work). I value enthusiasm, commitment to learn, and sincerity to medicine far more than the name of the school that appears on the students white coat.

wise beyond your years.

 

[agdoc04]

I'm At UTMB currently.
I couldn't imagine a better place to do med school. you get a very interesting patient population. TDC, homeless, drugs, indigent. It's big city problems in a town of 40,000. 45 minutes from downtown houston. I jog on seawall every morning. Cheap golf within 30 minutes. You will know almost your whole class well.
UTMB tends to attract very smart (board scores >230) but very down to earth students.

I interviewed all over the country, and i heard 5 times that i can think of, someone raving about an old UTMB graduate resident who was "the nicest person i ever met"

With the self pumping of UTMB over......
As a med student your goal is to learn how to manage 4-5 patients at a time, and to learn the pathologies, system, processes, patient care, teamwork, etc.
You should get that at both schools. Look at tuition.

 

[drtx]

Disclaimer: I am a UTSW grad. Went into Surgery-am in the middle of my training.

I LOVED that school. I had an incredible hands on experience during the last 2 yrs. The curriculum was solid and all the BS about suicidal students is a total load. We all got along, partied, studied together. I would recommend that school to anyone, hand down- a good choice.