WTF is up with scrambling into Rads???

[CaptKirk]

So I just have to rant and rave a bit. I'm an M3 who is praying I get into Radiology and then I hear about all these f'ing idiots who don't match into their chosen fieleds (ortho, derm, urology) and then scramble into a radiology residency AND GET IN.

I mean, I know I'm a lowly M3 who knows nothing about anything but if I was a PD, I would take someone who is not as competitive but genuinely showed an interest in the field (i.e. applied for it initially, had some EC's that demonstrated interest) rather than take some f'ing TOOL who is only shooting for it because they didn't get their first choice field.

I personally know of 3 individuals at my school and one at another school who have successfully scrambled into Radiology but who applied to programs in different specialties in the match.

WTF WTF WTF!!?!?!?!?!?!

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[poloace]

dude... chill the f bomb out. holy shi.t i mean, are you PMS-ing? if you're a competitive applicant in those other fields, you'd be competitive in radiology as well... go have a drink, meet a girl - do something. just chill.

 

[CaptKirk]

Oh, sorry, my bad. I'm sure nothing ever makes you want to rant and rave. Forgive me for my completely inappropriate choice to vent a bit. You're right, it should not be a big deal to anyone who works hard to go into a field of their choosing to watch other people choose it at the last minute, as a last resort, with clearly no demonstrated interest in the field itself other than as a conduit to a lifestyle. I'm sure they'll do just great.

I'm off to grab a beer and pick up a hooker, wanna join?

 

[poloace]

if people get in, they've demonstrated the capacity to get in. i'm not saying they'll be great radiologists... they very well may not be. at the same time, its absurd to get worked up over something like this. adjustment disorder? and, yeah - what corner are you going to hit up? i'll bring my 40.

 

[footcramp]

i'm sorry you suck at life.

"Losers are always whining about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen"

 

[keithn12345]

I agree with the Captain. I am sure there are many qualified med students that did not match in radiology. Maybe there step 1 score wasn't high enough but they probably did rotations, research etc... to show interest in the field. Now, another med students who has done the same for another specialty slips in at the last second. The whole scramble process is stupid. Programs should take their time and actually interview who they are going to get. Why panic and accept the highest board score that gets submitted. Why not meet the candidates and choose ones that you think are dedicated to the field and who you think will succeed in the program.

 

[poloace]

a lot of programs will have you interview during scramble... furthermore... who is NOT going to display some interest in a field if they're trying to scramble into it? i'm sure you have people in your med school class (we all do) whose performance on their interview got them into medical school and yet who you know will not make great physicians.

 

[CaptKirk]

if people get in, they've demonstrated the capacity to get in. i'm not saying they'll be great radiologists... they very well may not be. at the same time, its absurd to get worked up over something like this. adjustment disorder? and, yeah - what corner are you going to hit up? i'll bring my 40.

Dude, venting here, take a page from your own book and chill. I think most people with a genuine interest in a field would be a little frustrated to see people with little or no interest pursue it instead of pursuing their first choice field because they don't wanna deal with the match again, or because they're not competitive enough to get into their top choice. Seems like the only people this wouldn't bother are those who do it. So, what was your first choice field?

 

[hans19]

Forget the scramble. You shouldn't count on the scramble for anything. Try to do it right the first time. If you have to scramble, the numbers say you won't successfully scramble into rads, regardless of what specialty you are coming from or what your scores were.

Good luck.

 

[p53]

So I just have to rant and rave a bit. I'm an M3 who is praying I get into Radiology and then I hear about all these f'ing idiots who don't match into their chosen fieleds (ortho, derm, urology) and then scramble into a radiology residency AND GET IN.

I mean, I know I'm a lowly M3 who knows nothing about anything but if I was a PD, I would take someone who is not as competitive but genuinely showed an interest in the field (i.e. applied for it initially, had some EC's that demonstrated interest) rather than take some f'ing TOOL who is only shooting for it because they didn't get their first choice field.

I personally know of 3 individuals at my school and one at another school who have successfully scrambled into Radiology but who applied to programs in different specialties in the match.

WTF WTF WTF!!?!?!?!?!?!

There were only 17 open spots (out of 1030+) for scrambling in Radiology this year. They were all undesired places. The best program on the list was University of Kansas-Wichita. This program is not even considered a top 100 radiology residency.

Let's cut the BS. The chance that 3 individuals from one school scrambled into 3 of the 17 open spots is ZERO.

Ask the program director at your medical school. This was the most competive year since 2003. All of the gunners in medical school are gunning for radiology because of perceived big money and lifestyle. Dermatology is still popular but they make 50% of what a radiologist takes home. The competition for radiology has increased with stronger applicants because of perceived money.

Let's put it this way, the Step 1 average for incoming radiology residents at UCLA was around 255.

One more thing...I will say one last time. Optho is NOT as competitive as people think. The Step 1 average for Radiology has been higher than Optho the last 4 years in a row.

Most competitive specialties are

Plastics>Derm>ENT>Rad Onc>Radiology=Orthopedics > Optho=Urology

 

[nutcancer]

why do you emphasize perceived money?

is it the soon coming cuts?

 

[Hopefulmeds]

Actually I would rank it more like

Plastics>Derm>Rad Onc>Ortho=ENT=Urology>Optho>Rads>>>Anesthesia

 

[p53]

Actually I would rank it more like

Plastics>Derm>Rad Onc>Ortho=ENT=Urology>Optho>Rads>>>Anesthesia

You are absolutely clueless. ENT is much more competitive than Ortho based on Step 1 scores, # applicants/spot, and % of research publications/applicant.

Ortho and Urology is not that competitive because these specialites are for the SF match. People have to commit to these specialites earlier so the best students keep their options open. Optho has never had Step 1 average above 230 and you are saying that it is competitive? I just hate simpletons that post information.

 

[Dr.Bevo]

You are absolutely clueless. ENT is much more competitive than Ortho based on Step 1 scores, # applicants/spot, and % of research publications/applicant.

Ortho and Urology is not that competitive because these specialites are for the SF match. People have to commit to these specialites earlier so the best students keep their options open. Optho has never had Step 1 average above 230 and you are saying that it is competitive? I just hate simpletons that post information.

Ortho is regular match. Urology has its own match separate from the SF match and the regular match. I don't get what you are saying about the best students "keeping their options open." Lots of studs come into school and are shooting for those competitive surgical subspecialties from the get go. Are you saying that all the best applicants don't know what they want to do until the last minute?

 

[cliffhanger]

Although it doesn't have anything to do with the original post, I agree with p53's assessment of the most competitive specialties. Except that I think ortho is a little more competitive than rads.... maybe not so much in terms of board scores, but in terms of how much work you have to do to make yourself competitive (for ortho).

 

[salmonella]

There are some people saying don't go into radiology for money and lifestyle...well, don't listen to them. They are just trolls who try to discourage people on this board, hoping to make rads a little less competitive so they would have a chance of getting in. I talked to a well respected professor, and he said radiology would continue to be golden in the next couple decades. Tons of money will be there (because of new technology and increased reliance on diagnostic imaging) and the lifestyle will get even better (night hawk system, tele radiology, computer assisted image interpretation). If you want money, lifestyle and family time, definitely go into rads. Don't listen to the crap about dooms of radiology.

 

[p53]

You should check out the reimbursement cuts in radiology. The point is that you should go into radiology because you have a true interest in the field. I personally think radiology is the best specialty in medicine. However, I know that people that enter the specialty because of perceived money and/or lifestyle will be miserable.

Why do I care?

Because if you are miserable you will make mistakes and will be a liability for patients. You will also be a horrible future colleague.

My solution is to investigate the field by going to RSNA or read journals such as Radiology. Try to develop a sincere interest in the specialty.

Be careful what you wish for because you might get it. You might become a radiologist and then realize that you wasted (4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, and 5 years of residency = 13 years of your life for something you have no interest in doing for the rest of your life). You will absolutely hate your life because you will feel tied down to your job.

Bottomline: I believe radiology is the best field subspecialty in medicine. I wish all medical students have a chance to investigate the field. Yet, most medical students just chase money and lifestyle without knowing the underlying politics of radiology. Money and lifestyle is transient. Triple ruleouts will force radiologists to do 24/7 CT coverages. Turf-battles will take lucrative procedures away. Radiology knowledge keeps expanding. You have to keep up by learning new modalities. If you don't develop a true interest in radiology, you will fall behind on your readings. You truly have to devote yourself to be a learner for the rest of your life. If you go into radiology (or any other specialty) for the wrong reasons (money, lifestyle, vacation) you will hate yourself for the rest of your life. Furthermore, everyone around you (family, friends, co-workers) will hate being around you because of your miserable outlook of life.

 

[p53]

Ortho is regular match. Urology has its own match separate from the SF match and the regular match. I don't get what you are saying about the best students "keeping their options open." Lots of studs come into school and are shooting for those competitive surgical subspecialties from the get go. Are you saying that all the best applicants don't know what they want to do until the last minute?

People will realize that I meant Optho rather than Ortho. There is only one letter difference. Plus if you read the paragraph you will realize that Optho makes more sense within the context.

 

[exmike]

You are absolutely clueless. ENT is much more competitive than Ortho based on Step 1 scores, # applicants/spot, and % of research publications/applicant.

Ortho and Urology is not that competitive because these specialites are for the SF match. People have to commit to these specialites earlier so the best students keep their options open. Optho has never had Step 1 average above 230 and you are saying that it is competitive? I just hate simpletons that post information.

Actually, for 2007, ophtho's average was 231
and remember that the 231 is for all matched - us seniors + us grads + foreign grads. If you are referring to the AAMC Charting the match outcomes data, you cant get combined step 1 scores - only US Seniors vs Others, which will skew the scores higher obviously.

i'd say it goes
Ultra competitive = Plastics, Derm
Very competitive = Rad/Onc, Rads, Ortho, Ophtho, Uro, ENT, Nsurg
and the rest. EM and Anes are no more competitive in terms of Step 1 than IM, categorical surg.

 

[Docxter]

I agree with exmike. Plastics/derm have been consistently ultracompetitive in the last few years.

 

[Roche]

I would put Rad Onc in the ultra competitive pool. I was on their forum and they take no IMG's, almost no DOs (just one this year) and those who do get in virtually all come from Ivy league schools. This doesn't mean that they're better applicants, but program directors value school pedigree more than board scores or other facets of the application. That makes this field ultra competitive if your not from a top tier med school, for better or for worse.

 

[mig2k]

Having talked to some people that sit on boards and whatnot, Rads ranked #3 in terms of board scores (behind plastics and derm).

 

[Impressions]

I would put Rad Onc in the ultra competitive pool. I was on their forum and they take no IMG's, almost no DOs (just one this year) and those who do get in virtually all come from Ivy league schools. This doesn't mean that they're better applicants, but program directors value school pedigree more than board scores or other facets of the application. That makes this field ultra competitive if your not from a top tier med school, for better or for worse.

Those that get in have publications. To get into Rad-Onc it is Pubs>Pubs>Abstracts>Posters>Presentations>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LOR from Oncologist>Step 1> AOA.

It is not competitive per se, people self select themselves out of it because not many medical students have the time during medical school to get meaningful research out.

I agree with people on here about radiology. It is more competitive than Optho. There are 1000+ spots in Rads yet the Step 1 average is still in the 230's. Think about that. A large sample size and it still has a high Step 1 average. A spot in the top twenty radiology programs have a Step 1 average in the 250's. Just think of all the community radiology programs out there (close to 100+ programs). Now imagine the university programs. Makes you realize the university radiology programs are very, very competitive.

 

[ttumed]

Not that these comments are particularly insightful or meaningful, I did want to comment on rads and income. I believe income will be preserved if, and only if the field continues to push the envelope. Yes there are reimbursement cuts but this is the way I think it will pan out. As CT/MR get faster, better, cheaper and whatnot the payout on those studies will decline just like XR. However with newer imaging modalities like molecular imaging and things we can't begin to imagine, the payout will likely always be high. So the key is innovation and lifelong learning. I love Radiology though only one small piece of the pie being income.

 

[Donkeyman]

Just think of all the community radiology programs out there (close to 100+ programs). Now imagine the university programs. Makes you realize the university radiology programs are very, very competitive.

Please...I think most people would agree that Radiology has a high step one score because there is a high proportion of nerds "bookworms." Don't say Radiology is more competitive than ophtho (I have seen the scramble lists for the past two years and I remember quite a few radiology spots that were unfilled...that does not happen in ophtho, trust me). I agree its competitive, but not more than ophtho.

 

[Donkeyman]

If I recall correctly, the step 1 score of rads was similar to that of derm and nobody thinks rads is more competitive than derm just b/c of its high step 1.

 

[nutcancer]

look, the reason why people suggest optho/ent/ortho are more competitive than rads is because there are twice as many rads spots as each of those fields. having said this, its relatively easy to match at the worst rads program; easier than trying to match at the worst ENT program. however, to match at one of the big guns in rads is JUST as hard as matching into the top places of any other competitive speciality (plas, uro, ent, optho, ortho).

since rads has 2x the number of spots as these other fields, if you take rads top half and then compare to other specialities, rads would be equal, if not harder, than ent/ophtho.

 

[nutcancer]

and who wants to do ophtho anyway? its for girls

 

[Donkeyman]

look, the reason why people suggest optho/ent/ortho are more competitive than rads is because there are twice as many rads spots as each of those fields. having said this, its relatively easy to match at the worst rads program; easier than trying to match at the worst ENT program. however, to match at one of the big guns in rads is JUST as hard as matching into the top places of any other competitive speciality (plas, uro, ent, optho, ortho).

since rads has 2x the number of spots as these other fields, if you take rads top half and then compare to other specialities, rads would be equal, if not harder, than ent/ophtho.

I agree. Plus, I like the fact that there are girls in ophtho (some are pretty hot too ).

 

[medgator]

Most competitive specialties are

Plastics>Derm>ENT>Rad Onc>Radiology=Orthopedics > Optho=Urology

I would put plastics at the top and Rad Onc just a little behind Derm. There's no way that ENT is more competitive than ortho, urology or Rad onc (especially rad onc). Ortho is known for its love of AOAs and high Step 1 scores. Rad onc (at ~!20-130) has the least number of spots of any specialty in the country (Uro has 200+, Derm has 200+, Rads has 1000+) Optho is probably the least competitive out of all of the surgical specialties right now, from what I can tell.

 

[Frumps]

I applied to both ophtho and rads, and I can tell personally that I got twice the number of interviews in rads as ophtho. I would also agree that ENT is more competitive than ortho. I had a friend who matched in ortho with a step 1 score of 206 (not AOA either). This is definitely not the norm, but I don't think he would have even got interviews in some of the other specialties listed.

Medgator...please don't comment until you have gone through the match process and have compared with your fellow classmates.

 

[GuP]

I don't want to start a pissing contest but a lot of info in this thread is wrong. I urge you guys to thoroughly explore all aspects of a field before you label it as less or more competitive. Yes, you can look at the numbers but they are not the whole ballgame - as Frumps said above, you need to either have gone through it or have info from people who have been through it. If you go solely by numbers, in 2005, the mean Step 1 for Rad Onc was only 228. However, Rad onc is tremedously competitive. Same goes for Ophtho and ENT. Ophtho is considerably more competitive than rads and ENT more so than ortho. Ask around MS4s who applied in both fields, if you can find such a candidate. The numbers are not the be-all-end-all. Anyways, competitiveness of a field should not hinder nor encourage one from applying. If you truly like something, I say you go after it like an animal. If you don't get it at first, be persistent and try again. Remember, where there is a will, there is a way!!

 

[Long Dong]

I agree. Plus, I like the fact that there are girls in ophtho (some are pretty hot too ).

I think derm has the hotest girls.

 

[GuP]

I think derm has the hotest girls.

I agree! I have been to Derm grand rounds a few times and the chicks are hot! I have heard similar stories about the AAD meetings.

 

[medgator]

I applied to both ophtho and rads, and I can tell personally that I got twice the number of interviews in rads as ophtho. I would also agree that ENT is more competitive than ortho. I had a friend who matched in ortho with a step 1 score of 206 (not AOA either). This is definitely not the norm, but I don't think he would have even got interviews in some of the other specialties listed.

Medgator...please don't comment until you have gone through the match process and have compared with your fellow classmates.

Frumps, I am just speaking from my observations throughout the years. I graduated from med school a couple years ago and am now completing a rad onc residency. Just sharing what I've seen in my class and others. Everyone who matched in ortho my year was AOA and/or was ranked in the top 1/4. I should have clarified my previous statement and mention that from what Ive seen, optho is the least competitive out of the surgical specialties (i.e. ENT, Uro and ortho are more difficult to get into). As for rads vs. optho, I would think optho is more competitive, just based on rads having so many more spots. Getting back to the topic of rads, I think its competitive at the higher ranked programs, but due to the sheer number of spots, it probably isnt as bad as many of these other fields.

 

[Frumps]

Sorry medgator, thought you were still in med school. My bad.

 

[Frumps]

I'm shocked he got any interviews in Ortho.

BTW, that's a terrible rationale for why ENT is more competitive than Ortho.

I'm basing this on talking to people over the past couple of years who have applied to both + more spots for ortho. I dont know for sure which is, nor does anybody else probably (just basing this on personal experience).

 

[Long Dong]

Let's put it this way, the Step 1 average for incoming radiology residents at UCLA was around 255.

I didn't know they rolled like that down in the basement.

 

[deleted113029]

There were only 17 open spots (out of 1030+) for scrambling in Radiology this year. They were all undesired places. The best program on the list was University of Kansas-Wichita. This program is not even considered a top 100 radiology residency.

Let's cut the BS. The chance that 3 individuals from one school scrambled into 3 of the 17 open spots is ZERO.

Ask the program director at your medical school. This was the most competive year since 2003. All of the gunners in medical school are gunning for radiology because of perceived big money and lifestyle. Dermatology is still popular but they make 50% of what a radiologist takes home. The competition for radiology has increased with stronger applicants because of perceived money.

Let's put it this way, the Step 1 average for incoming radiology residents at UCLA was around 255.

One more thing...I will say one last time. Optho is NOT as competitive as people think. The Step 1 average for Radiology has been higher than Optho the last 4 years in a row.

Most competitive specialties are

Plastics>Derm>ENT>Rad Onc>Radiology=Orthopedics > Optho=Urology

do some research before you speak.

what one medical profession allows a doctor to make tons of money without working additional hours? you guessed right...derm. Why? a little thing called a cosmetic store that can easily double or triple their salary. That is a major reason it's ubercompetitive. with that in mind, dermatologists live larger by far.

 

[Long Dong]

do some research before you speak.

what one medical profession allows a doctor to make tons of money without working additional hours? you guessed right...derm. Why? a little thing called a cosmetic store that can easily double or triple their salary. That is a major reason it's ubercompetitive. with that in mind, dermatologists live larger by far.

Ya know those derms from pro active pulled 500 million net last year.

Selling active ingredients that can be bought for less then 5 bucks for 60+ dollars.

Oh yeah I read once about some dermpath guy at ucsf pulled like 1.5 mil a year.

Oh yeah did I also mention that derm has the hotest hotties.

 

[nutcancer]

Ya know those derms from pro active pulled 500 million net last year.

Selling active ingredients that can be bought for less then 5 bucks for 60+ dollars.

Oh yeah I read once about some dermpath guy at ucsf pulled like 1.5 mil a year.

Oh yeah did I also mention that derm has the hotest hotties.

derm doesn't make more than rads, don't be silly; same with optho and ent.

straight from allied health (an admittedly inflated resource, but comparing two fields makes it somewhat valid)

derm (years 1-2 195k, >3 years 308k, max 452k)
radiology (years 1-2 201k, >3 years 354k, max 911k)

of course reimbursement cuts will hurt rads in particular, the way things are now derm is not close. go to auntminnie and see some of the job offerings in radiology. what other field gives you the option to make atleast 300k, 9-5, no weekends, call 1 night a month that ends at 10 PM, and the sweetest cherry of them all: >10 weeks vacation.

 

[nimbus]

Ya know those derms from pro active pulled 500 million net last year.

Selling active ingredients that can be bought for less then 5 bucks for 60+ dollars.

Oh yeah I read once about some dermpath guy at ucsf pulled like 1.5 mil a year.

Oh yeah did I also mention that derm has the hotest hotties.

More like $1.8mil for Leboit and McCalmont.

http://sfgate.com/c/a/2006/11/09/UCchart.html

 

[Long Dong]

derm doesn't make more than rads, don't be silly; same with optho and ent.

straight from allied health (an admittedly inflated resource, but comparing two fields makes it somewhat valid)

derm (years 1-2 195k, >3 years 308k, max 452k)
radiology (years 1-2 201k, >3 years 354k, max 911k)

of course reimbursement cuts will hurt rads in particular, the way things are now derm is not close. go to auntminnie and see some of the job offerings in radiology. what other field gives you the option to make atleast 300k, 9-5, no weekends, call 1 night a month that ends at 10 PM, and the sweetest cherry of them all: >10 weeks vacation.

Yeah I know in general medical derms doesn't make more then rads. I was just pointin out that some derms can make mad chedda if they go into cosmetics and med spa type stuff.

But did I mention that derm has the hottest hotties.

 

[deleted113029]

derm doesn't make more than rads, don't be silly; same with optho and ent.

straight from allied health (an admittedly inflated resource, but comparing two fields makes it somewhat valid)

derm (years 1-2 195k, >3 years 308k, max 452k)
radiology (years 1-2 201k, >3 years 354k, max 911k)

of course reimbursement cuts will hurt rads in particular, the way things are now derm is not close. go to auntminnie and see some of the job offerings in radiology. what other field gives you the option to make atleast 300k, 9-5, no weekends, call 1 night a month that ends at 10 PM, and the sweetest cherry of them all: >10 weeks vacation.

again, derms have cosmetic stores that more than makes up the difference and more. please understand the power of anti-aging products in our society. in the end, derms make more and work considerably less.

 

[nutcancer]

Yeah I know in general medical derms doesn't make more then rads. I was just pointin out that some derms can make mad chedda if they go into cosmetics and med spa type stuff.

But did I mention that derm has the hottest hotties.

derm girls are hotties. i saw a derm 2 years ago for something and the resident was gorgeous -- very classy pretty.

no offense to the rads biddies. they're excellent as well. too bad they end up marrying surgeons.

 

[RedRubberCath]

Let's put it this way, the Step 1 average for incoming radiology residents at UCLA was around 255.

Holy cow, 255 average
Where did you find this out p53? Is there a site that lists these things?

 

[adismo]

"rant and rave"

"im just venting"

"wtf?! wtf?! wtf?!" (were you jumping up and down when you typed this?)

Dude, do you have highlights or frosted tips? Anyways I'm just a nobody DO from a hollywood upstairs medical school, but if someone has enough qual to scramble into any leftover Rad spot thats theyre perogative.

Hard work and maturity on my part should be what secures a residency spot, so do your part. But all that doesnt really matter because what really gets you in is membership in Elite Hunting (think "Hostel"). Too few people know this.

IMO, Rad's is no.1 on the ROAD to happiness, but I can never stay awake when the lights go dim. Good luck.

 

[exmike]

"rant and rave"

"im just venting"

"wtf?! wtf?! wtf?!" (were you jumping up and down when you typed this?)

Dude, do you have highlights or frosted tips? Anyways I'm just a nobody DO from a hollywood upstairs medical school, but if someone has enough qual to scramble into any leftover Rad spot thats theyre perogative.

Hard work and maturity on my part should be what secures a residency spot, so do your part. But all that doesnt really matter because what really gets you in is membership in Elite Hunting (think "Hostel"). Too few people know this.

IMO, Rad's is no.1 on the ROAD to happiness, but I can never stay awake when the lights go dim. Good luck.

my head hurts

 

[CaptKirk]

"rant and rave"

"im just venting"

"wtf?! wtf?! wtf?!" (were you jumping up and down when you typed this?)

Dude, do you have highlights or frosted tips? Anyways I'm just a nobody DO from a hollywood upstairs medical school, but if someone has enough qual to scramble into any leftover Rad spot thats theyre perogative.

Hard work and maturity on my part should be what secures a residency spot, so do your part. But all that doesnt really matter because what really gets you in is membership in Elite Hunting (think "Hostel"). Too few people know this.

IMO, Rad's is no.1 on the ROAD to happiness, but I can never stay awake when the lights go dim. Good luck.

If you've got nothing better to do than lay into me for saying what I want in a manner that harms no one, I have just one word for you. Tool.

 

[adismo]

in your world TOOLs seem to get your coveted Rad spots. thanks but no thanks, im more of a ER kind of guy.

but good luck to ya, Captain