Yale? Harvard? Etc....

[LadyLuck]

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Does anyone know what these *bigshot* ivy leagues look for in their med school applicants (like avg. gpa and mcat etc.) I'm guessing that they look for experiences such as running the health care system of an underdeveloped country and stuff like that to get in...... Just seeing what I can do to beef up my portfolio while I still have lots of time.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

damn girl,
You would be my new hero if you actually ran a clinic or something in an underdeveloped country.

About the stats: I suggest you do a search on a person called "Pocwana" on SDN. He/She has a website that has a bunch of stats for different schools.

 

[GATC]

I am attending Yale Med this year and I did not organize health care in an underdeveloped country. I think they look for well rounded individuals (especially Yale) with various strengths. GPA and MCAT scores vary.

 

[Diogenes]

A friend of a friend built an artificial heart and implanted it in a dog when he was 12. The dog lived for months. He got in.

 

[lady bug]

Originally posted by Diogenes
A friend of a friend built an artificial heart and implanted it in a dog when he was 12. The dog lived for months. He got in.

Are you for real?

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by lady bug


Are you for real?

Well, I am certain that my friend did not embellish what he had been told. Supposedly he knows this guy whose dad is a cardiologist and the guy said when he was a kid he built an artificial heart and they put it into a dog and the dog lived for months. And the guy ended up at some med school back east -- I don't know which one.

 

[Sonya]

They report their avarage GPAs (in books like MSAR) to be around 3.80. Some schools look more at stats then others. But, we did an analysis on student that gotten into top 15 medical schools. While the average for a school might be 3.75, most of the students tend to be 3.87+ (all number here very approximate). and then, t here was a group of student that were significantly lower GPA (3.4-3.5). Without creating to much controversy, I am GUESSING these are minority student or people who made a significant come back from freshman year.

Sonya

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by Sonya
They report their avarage GPAs (in books like MSAR) to be around 3.80. Some schools look more at stats then others. But, we did an analysis on student that gotten into top 15 medical schools. While the average for a school might be 3.75, most of the students tend to be 3.87+ (all number here very approximate). and then, t here was a group of student that were significantly lower GPA (3.4-3.5). Without creating to much controversy, I am GUESSING these are minority student or people who made a significant come back from freshman year.

Sonya

Interesting. Can you give more info on your study design? Do you have the raw data?

 

[LadyLuck]

Thanks for all the info guys! You're so sweet! My husband wants to go to law school and apparently Yale has like ten times the opportunities for judicial clerkships than most other schools. So that is why I am interested. I am just afraid that because I am only a sophomore, my classes are going to continue to get waaayyy harder and I will see my gpa plummet. How are you supposed to find time to volunteer and shadow and do research all while trying to maintain a 4.0???? I guess I'm just paranoid Thanks guys!

 

[Mutterkuchen]

The dog story is obviously BS. The kid maybe help out his cardiologist dad a little, but was not the main researcher. If he was, there are some serious ethical concerns regarding animal rights.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by JBJ
The dog story is obviously BS. The kid maybe help out his cardiologist dad a little, but was not the main researcher. If he was, there are some serious ethical concerns regarding animal rights.

I second that. This strikes me as another fictional med school legend.

 

[loomis]

the people I know who went to Yale/HMS from my college came from a variety of flavors but I did notice 2 general trends among my group of friends there . 1. my friends who went straight from undergrad had heavyweight GPAs (3.7+) and MCATs (35+) and good but no "cardiologly revolutionizing" activites (with the exception of two). 2. my friends who took several years off had much more modest GPAs (3.5-3.6) and MCATs (low 30s) but had a lot more "life experiences" (cool jobs, etc). Again, nothing that'll get them the nobel prize but I guess adcoms like the maturity that the older students bring into the mix. Then again, I am an alum of one of the aforementioned schools so I don't know if the school was showing some preference (that's a whole 'nother thread!).
Hope that helps!

 

[MacGyver]

Yeah, the artificial heart thing is an urban legend.

The only scenario I see as viable, is that the cardiologist worked with a company (who actually built the device) and the cardiologist simply implanted the device and monitored the animal.

A cardiologist would not be able to design and build an artifical heart on his/her own. The engineering challenges are enormous; having detailed knowledge of heart anatomy/physiology is necessary, but not nearly sufficient for such a task.

 

[gowdah]

loomis,

I am in a post bac program that links with a few med schools (GWU, Tulane, SUNY-Stonybrook) and I am debating whether to buckle down, work super hard, and go for the big "name" schools (Harvard, ofcourse being my first choice) or just link with one of the aforementioned schools.

I went to Georgetown and graduated with a 3.72 Gpa in Finance and Intl Business, and worked on Wall Street as an investment banker and trader for the last four years. I did not do much volunteering the last four years since my schedule was extremely busy however I did volunteer in college and was on the Division I Track Team. I think excluding my lack of clinical experience I am a decent candidate (especially if I can crank through these science classes and ace the Mcat).

I am in quite a quandary since I need to make my decision about linking in a month and once I am given a conditional offer (which I heard is given to everyone; conditions are 3.5 post bac Gpa and 27 Mcat), I will have to go to the link school.

What do you feel are my chances to get into the top schools and what do you think I need to do to ensure such an acceptance?

The way I look at it is that it really does not matter (residency-wise) where I go (as long as I excel) but personally and I guess, illogically, I want to go to Harvard (had a brother go there and look at it as a great achievement). So to me it is a choice between linking and Harvard. What do you advise?

Thanks for bearing with me on this terrible long email.

HG

 

[loomis]

gowdah
i went to college not med school at harvard so i certainly am not qualified to say what your chances are to get into the med school. as my "phd from hell" thread alludes to, I am probably going to be applying myself in the coming year. that said, your stats seem good (similar to my friends who applied years after college) but who knows with the whole process. I can understand the "illogical" feeling of going to a name brand school, after all I fell for the same trap when I started college. Ultimately I think you'll have to ask yourself if the uncertainty of applying to the general cycle outweighs the lock that you'll have in joining a linkage program. You could always do your residency/fellowship at HMS. Tons of hospitals and most people are akin to believe residency is really what shapes the physican anyways. Good luck!
Loomis

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Sonya
They report their avarage GPAs (in books like MSAR) to be around 3.80. Some schools look more at stats then others. But, we did an analysis on student that gotten into top 15 medical schools. While the average for a school might be 3.75, most of the students tend to be 3.87+ (all number here very approximate). and then, t here was a group of student that were significantly lower GPA (3.4-3.5). Without creating to much controversy, I am GUESSING these are minority student or people who made a significant come back from freshman year.

Sonya

I tend to agree with Sonya and loomis.

You don't need to be all-around. In fact, I don't think being well rounded helps. 3.7, 34 MCAT + little bit of research and life experiences do not bode too well.

Instead, among my friends who get into top 10 schools, they tend to have 3.85+ GPA and 37+ MCAT (with the exception of one person with 33). They all went straight from the college though.

And then there is another group with decent-good stats (3.5 and maybe around 30-33 MCAT) but have EXCELLENT life experience (and I don't mean volunteering in student health clinic for 4 years and be a peer sex ed advisor; that really don't help your application much), OR kick-ass research (like at least a couple first-authorships and not 2nd author OR URM status. However, I personally feel that the latter group with excellent life experience are becoming more and more of a minority at these top 10 med schools. Instead, they are more and more replaced by gunners who you see around you in undergrad all the time.

These are my personal opinions. You should always try to aim high and apply to as many schools as you can.

 

[rajneel1]

being well rounded definitely helps. just because these people have high numbers doesn't mean that they don't have good or great experiences. and you don't need first authorship or to run a student clinic (are you being sarcastic wonderer?). just be involved in things that you care about. and go beyond those experiences by taking on leadership, trying to get published, knowing faculty, etc.
top 10's love excellent life experiences but they also expect you to have high numbers. they are in demand and get into the top schools! most med schools will tell you that they don't want gunners....just good people with good experiences and passion for the work (as long as they can pass STEP).
i think i'm an example.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Diogenes
A friend of a friend built an artificial heart and implanted it in a dog when he was 12. The dog lived for months. He got in.

WOW!!

 

[Bonds756]

Originally posted by gowdah
loomis,

worked on Wall Street as an investment banker and trader for the last four years.

What do you feel are my chances to get into the top schools and :

There are a couple of people in my Penn Med entering class that left NYC and Wall Street to come to West Philly.

 

[Diogenes]

Wow guys, I'm SO impressed you sniffed out the fake story. So smart you all are...

 

[CaNEM]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Wow guys, I'm SO impressed you sniffed out the fake story. So smart you all are...

So why make it up?

 

[gowdah]

Bonds,

Could you give me more details of your wallstreet friends at UPENN. I am really interested in seeing how med schools look at business types returning to med school. I notice most of the non traditional med students were involved in health care in their years out of school. What about the non-health people.

Thanks

Gowdah

 

[dr kevin40]

godwah,

i'm curious y u want to go to med school after working on wall street already and making money?

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by CaNEM


So why make it up?

S-A-R-C-A-S-M.

And the ladybug asks "are you for real?" so of course I rolled with it.

 

[CoffeeCat]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Wow guys, I'm SO impressed you sniffed out the fake story. So smart you all are...

I wish I could find the puking graemlin.

 

[dr kevin40]

why are life experiences so important to get into top schools?
is it because top schools can't accept all ppl with high stats b/c then the class will be too competitive. instead, they accept ppl with good life experiences to fill the middle and bottom of the scale, but they'll have these good stories to tell their classmates to keep them entertained during the four years?

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
why are life experiences so important to get into top schools?
is it because top schools can't accept all ppl with high stats b/c then the class will be too competitive. instead, they accept ppl with good life experiences to fill the middle and bottom of the scale, but they'll have these good stories to tell their classmates to keep them entertained during the four years?

I think it is because high stats are not necessarily indicative of potential for becoming a great doctor or scientist, which is probably the admissions committee's goal -- to pick people that will succeed greatly.

 

[Street Philosopher]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
why are life experiences so important to get into top schools?
is it because top schools can't accept all ppl with high stats b/c then the class will be too competitive. instead, they accept ppl with good life experiences to fill the middle and bottom of the scale, but they'll have these good stories to tell their classmates to keep them entertained during the four years?

yes, the people with lower stats fill the role of class entertainers.

 

[CoffeeCat]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
why are life experiences so important to get into top schools?
is it because top schools can't accept all ppl with high stats b/c then the class will be too competitive. instead, they accept ppl with good life experiences to fill the middle and bottom of the scale, but they'll have these good stories to tell their classmates to keep them entertained during the four years?

Because who wants doctors who are book smart but can't relate to people? Not that they are mutually exclusive but people who have done some amazing things are more likely to be able to connect with other people, which is what being a doctor is all about. Knowledge is important but so is communication.

 

[gowdah]

drkevin40,

I want to go into medicine bc/ I feel that helping people is the only way I can truly enjoy life... pretty selfish, right. But what can you expect from a businessman. haha.

Eventhough it is much easier to make money in business, you really miss out on doing something, in my opinion, valuable. I realized sitting at a computer making money is not the best way for me to experience life. In contrast, helping a person seems a lot more interesting.

I was premed until early college, but I realize I was not ready for that at that time... however, with the experiences I have now I feel that medicine is the way to go.

gowdah

 

[Sonya]

Originally posted by Adcadet


Interesting. Can you give more info on your study design? Do you have the raw data?

The raw data is at the WashU premed office. We saw some data there, and we thought we'd look into it in more detail, and help the premed office. That data is not allowed outside of the premed office (we brought our laptop there). The undergrad schools get the data from AMCAS I believe. Yes, i have the raw data, but I should no give it out(because, techically, it's not supposed to go out of the school offices). E-mail me sometime, and I can send you the excel files (some analysis) I made from it. Or, maybe, i'll upload it to my webpage, and p ost a link here.


But the data is each student who applied (I think these were students starting medschool in either '99 or '00) from WashU school of Arts and Science, their GPA, Their MCAT, and what school they got accepted at, rejected from, and matriculated at. And there was stuff on residency, and some other stuff.
Sonya
[email protected]

 

[DarkChild]

hahaha - he/she probably just got fired.
there have been a huge round of layoffs on the street - and it will likely continue.
lots of people are "finding" themselves again.

Originally posted by dr kevin40
godwah,

i'm curious y u want to go to med school after working on wall street already and making money?

 

[TroutBum]

Gowdah--I'm not familiar with the type of program you are in, so are you guaranteed to link (with the conditions you set forth) or do you have to go through some sort of application process for that too? In my opinion, if you already have a spot waiting at GW or Tulane or wherever, then TAKE IT! Why go through all the bs and stress and worry that everybody else here is going through if you can avoid it? Also, do you have to link now? Or if you do link, can you decide later to apply at other schools? I'm guessing not, but if so then why not link and then apply elsewhere later? You can probably tell that I have no clue what sort of gig you have going, but if you're already locked into a slot at possibly several different med schools, then why squander that? Who knows, with how random this whole thing is, you might not get in anywhere on the regular application round (I've known some good people, with good stats, who had to apply twice, and some never made it in). Just my thoughts, but for me it would be a no-brainer. . .

 

[gowdah]

Troutbum,

I am tending to agree with you however, I strongly feel I have a very good chance at a top school. However, trust me I am leaning towards linking but I am sure you can understand that I want to consider all options. Especially if I believe that if I crank I can get into a great school.

gowdah


Darkchild,

I was not fired... though it is true many people were laid off from wall street. I am sure this will increase the number of applicants to medical schools in the present and in the future (infact, in my post bac program, we have a Harvard girl from Morgan Stanley). The bad thing is that only the top 5% of college students (top colleges, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc) get a job on wall street. This combined with the fact that wall street only makes people more competitive and achievement-oriented will make it much harder for everyone else applying to med school. Harder especially for students who have very limited life experiences and are going into medicine for only the money or bc/ their parents want them to. I hope you are in neither of these categories.

Gowdah

 

[mvervaine]

Originally posted by gowdah
Troutbum,

The bad thing is that only the top 5% of college students (top colleges, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc) get a job on wall street.
Gowdah

you forgot princeton, which, last time i checked, was number ONE.

sorry. i'll shut up now.

 

[gowdah]

I wonder where mvervain went???

 

[Bonds756]

Originally posted by gowdah
Bonds,

Could you give me more details of your wallstreet friends at UPENN. I am really interested in seeing how med schools look at business types returning to med school. I notice most of the non traditional med students were involved in health care in their years out of school. What about the non-health people.

Thanks

Gowdah

We just started a week ago, and I don't know the two kids so well, but both seemed to say they made the switch because they did not want to deal with the long days, stress, and bs. Funny how the perseption is people in business work long hours (80hr/week or whatever) yet these kids will have longer hours during residencies.
The entire class was surprised when they told us the average age was only 22.7. While I did not go around asking people for their stats, I have a feeling that the trend already mentioned is correct (right out of college with higher stats, a couple years out and amazing experiences and still very high stats). Most people taking time off did research or a postbac or something medically related, but at our orientation the faculty seemed to like to say that we have so many published authors, so many this and that, and so many people from wall street. It can't hurt is basically what I am trying to say.

 

[larkyn2]

is not bs. i think the name of the guy who did it was judah folkman ..or something like that. i think he got into harvard.

 

[DarkChild]

Originally posted by gowdah


Darkchild,
Harder especially for students who have very limited life experiences and are
going into medicine for only the money or bc/ their parents want them
to. I hope you are in neither of these categories.

Gowdah

no gowdah - I'm in another category - the one that includes Ivy-league
Biochemists working at an Investment Bank.
buddy - it would serve you right to get off your high horse. call me when you've
taken your pre-med requirements and crushed the MCATs. I mean this
sincerely - dont forget there is always someone bigger and better out there than
you.
so relax with the attitude.
btw - dont pontificate on the chances of getting into med school
you're a newbie. shut your mouth - open your ears and listen to what
those who have gone before you have to say.

 

[gowdah]

Darkchild,

Damn take it easy boy... It looks like someone has a small penis complex.

 

[gowdah]

Darkchild,

By the way... what's up with "newbie"... I guess you are the chief resident over here... Ok boss, I will listen to all your intelligent pre-medical advice... hahahah

 

[gowdah]

Darkchild,

Oh, here's my last one:

Ivy-league biochemist + Investment Banker + Crushed Mcat + Great GPA + super arrogance = No ass, no girl, no life....


I wish I were you!!!

 

[Bonds756]

Wow.
That was a little too strong of a comeback, or two, or three. Take it easy and listen to people's comments- most are trying to help.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by rajneel1
being well rounded definitely helps. just because these people have high numbers doesn't mean that they don't have good or great experiences. and you don't need first authorship or to run a student clinic (are you being sarcastic wonderer?). just be involved in things that you care about. and go beyond those experiences by taking on leadership, trying to get published, knowing faculty, etc.
top 10's love excellent life experiences but they also expect you to have high numbers. they are in demand and get into the top schools! most med schools will tell you that they don't want gunners....just good people with good experiences and passion for the work (as long as they can pass STEP).
i think i'm an example.

No, I was not being sarcastic. I just feel that people tend to overestimiate their achievements.

"I have done extensive research over the past two summers with 2 publications." (well, unless it is first authorship, I don't think it will help you much because other people have that too). "I have had extensive volunteer activities, being the peer health advisor for the past 4 years and am a resident advisor for my dorm." (well, unless it is to the extent of being in the peace corp in the last two years, those listed are not very impressive). "I have been involved in intramural sports for the past 3 straight years and I work out every other day religiously. Plus, I played piano for 12+ years before coming to college" (well, if it ain't varsity sports or concert tour, it ain't gonna make you stand out). "I have very good numbers, 3.7 and 33 on the MCAT" (sorry, buddy, plenty of other applicants [at least more than enough to fill that school's entering spots] have 3.9 and 38).

This is not meant to discourage people from applying, because you never know. But one should always expect the worst and downplay his or her achievement.

For many of the people who think that they get in by being well-rounded, it is most likely that they have excellent numbers with some decent extracurrcular activities. In the end, it is their numbers that get them in, not their outside activities/experience.





I have also seen something similar to what Sonya saw in her premed office. The top of these sheets give you the name of the med school. Then they list the applicants (of course, no names) who got accepted to that med school. Beside each applicant, it indicates his or her science + overall GPA and MCAT scores, state of residency, and whether they accept or decline the offer. These sheets definitely do not contain any info on applicants' EC's.

And I swear, just by looking at their numbers, you already know which schools they also get accepted to (you can check which applicant get into what schools by cross-referencing their numbers across various sheets on different med schools.). It is scary. And no, I did not do my premed at Wash U in St. Louis.

 

[CaNEM]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
why are life experiences so important to get into top schools?
is it because top schools can't accept all ppl with high stats b/c then the class will be too competitive. instead, they accept ppl with good life experiences to fill the middle and bottom of the scale, but they'll have these good stories to tell their classmates to keep them entertained during the four years?

I agree, it's ridiculous. Personality and personability have nothing to do with being a great doctor. It's all about stats and numbers. In fact, every time I have to visit a physician, the first thing I ask is his or her MCAT score. If it is not at least a 40, like dr kevin's, I'm outta there.

 

[Curci]

Originally posted by larkyn2
the dog story is not bs. i think the name of the guy who did it was judah folkman ..or something like that. i think he got into harvard.

Yeah. And I THINK I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[INeedAdvice]

Originally posted by LadyLuck
Does anyone know what these *bigshot* ivy leagues look for in their med school applicants (like avg. gpa and mcat etc.) I'm guessing that they look for experiences such as running the health care system of an underdeveloped country and stuff like that to get in...... Just seeing what I can do to beef up my portfolio while I still have lots of time.

Hey! Not all of the *bigshot* schools are ivy league, ya know. There are U. of Chicago, Stanford, and Duke ... which are the Harvards of the Midwest, West, and South.

 

[Bonds756]

I think a lot of people do overestimate the ECs of others, as you said. Working in a lab for 2 or 3 years as an undergrad sounds impressive. And you need the experience, but what did many of these people really get accomplished during that time.
That said, I still think ECs do have a substantial role in applications. The top schools that everyone is asking about can easily all fill their classes with 3.9 and 38+, but their averages are more like 3.8 and 36. Sure they have cutoffs, but once you are above those cutoffs, they look at who you are and what you have done in addition to how their US New rankings will change by letting you in.

 

[malusport]

where are you doing your post bac?

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Bonds756
The top schools that everyone is asking about can easily all fill their classes with 3.9 and 38+, but their averages are more like 3.8 and 36. Sure they have cutoffs, but once you are above those cutoffs, they look at who you are and what you have done in addition to how their US New rankings will change by letting you in.

I can understand what you are saying. I used to think like you. But I have turned into a huge, MASSIVE cynic after being in med school for a couple years. You will be surprised how many gunners with little or no EC's get into med schools nowadays, even @ the top schools that claim they look @ the "whole" applicants. And some of these people' personalities are so anti-social that I wondered why they "wanted" to become doctors in the first place.

To me, I am sick of the official med school propaganda. In the end, I feel that number rules, because for a tool with 3.9 and 38 from an Ivy-caliber school but little or no EC's, no problem. If Hopkins, Stanford or Baylor does not want you, Yale or Duke would be drooling over you (and if you are from Yale or Harvard undergrad, Columbia would be the one drooling).

Just my personal opinion