Yale medical students issue demands for diversity

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What you're moving toward is an issue of pedagogy, I believe teachers have a duty to teach. Equity is part of that. And I think we've moved past my original point: the self-perpetuation of poverty w/ education as a major factor, as a major point for this thread in terms of diversity. Also, the "enslavement" hyperbole is a little unnecessary, don't you think?
Teachers are paid to teach. It is their job and profession. It is not a "duty", and equity is not at all a part of their job description to meet all of your social engineering wants. They are not federal employees. That is why I said it's "a form of enslavement" and not just "enslavement", when you treat teachers as commodities who have no say in where they want to be employed.

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What you're moving toward is an issue of pedagogy, I believe teachers have a duty to teach. Equity is part of that. And I think we've moved past my original point: the self-perpetuation of poverty w/ education as a major factor, as a major point for this thread in terms of diversity. Also, the "enslavement" hyperbole is a little unnecessary, don't you think?
The word you want is equality, not equity. It is not equitable to force absolute equality.
 
How do you start a new thread on this site?
 
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A good point. I hope it was her choice. I'm kind of wondering what her husband plans to do. I'm sure they both have options given their history at Yale.
 
The article doesn't identify any particular students, groups, or details. It just says "Students" did this or that. Two pranksters would be "students."
 
The article doesn't identify any particular students, groups, or details. It just says "Students" did this or that. Two pranksters would be "students."

Reading between the lines is a useful skill to have. When I read a news article that says some "teens" beat up a teacher in school, it is pretty obvious who was involved.
 
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Reading between the lines is a useful skill to have. When I read a news article that says some "teens" beat up a teacher in school, it is pretty obvious who was involved.

One person saying something stupid is very different than a mass protest.

"Teens" beating someone up would imply 2, 3, 4 people. 40 students beating someone up would be quite a different headline!
 
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"Teens" beating someone up would imply 2, 3, 4 people. 40 students beating someone up would be quite a different headline!

You missed his point. When stories talk about "teens" beating someone up, for example, it is a clear euphemism for a specific skin color. Psai wasn't commenting on that word's numerical connotation.
 
You missed his point. When stories talk about "teens" beating someone up, for example, it is a clear euphemism for a specific skin color. Psai wasn't commenting on that word's numerical connotation.

And you missed my point: that using the word "students" tells us nothing about the nature of this "demand."
 
I'm still waiting to hear a legitimate microaggression that is an example of INSTITUTIONAL racism. There were some hypotheticals earlier but so far no one here has really said what EXACTLY has happened in real life to warrant all this outrage
Okay so I know we're a little past this but I just made an account literally because I saw honest attempts at conversation and examples among all the trigger finger bull**** in this thread. Full disclosure, I'm doing a prelim year at YSM so I like to believe I see the situation both as a stakeholder but also as a passerby as well.

From what I hear from my undergrad mentees (I am a "grad affiliate" at a residential college) and have read from the YDN, there is a real concern that Yale (and other similar universities) is pretty terrible at retaining diverse faculty, supporting departments that focus on topics related to diversity and race (e.g., cultural studies in particular), and supporting low-income/minority students in their educational/social lives.
There have been a couple of highly publicized (in the YDN, that is) faculty departures in the past couple of years, especially in African American studies, women's/gender studies, and the language departments. Some of these were standard tenure denials while others were like the Asian anthro prof who moved after being promised much more support and grant money there that Yale just wouldn't give her.
On top of this, student demands for more Asian/African-American courses and research opportunities have been ignored while the University continues to pour time and money into the more traditional "WASP-y" areas of study like Western history, philosophy, literature (e.g., the monstrous history department at Yale only has 1 full-time professor who focuses on modern Asian studies despite annual op-eds from students asking for more).
There have been a couple of very prominent black scholars/poets at Yale's large departments of English/philosophy who were denied tenure for inexplicable reasons and subsequently quickly picked up by rival R1 institutions.
At the medical school more specifically, there was a sexual harassment scandal last year around the time I interviewed where a tenured white male cardiologist had a Bill Cosby-like storm of accusations alleged decades of misconduct, but he kept his position and the YSM Dean said he supported the doc completely because of his service to the University and had no reason to doubt him or fire him as such, much to the anger of many students, females, and minorities who do not feel that the school supports them in certain ways that it purports to.
Last year, the cultural centers had many problems with administration and directors who weren't supportive of the center's activities and students but it took the College a long time and many screeching complaints to find them better directors and start restructuring the centers.
One of my mentees is a premed history major and said that until a couple of hears ago, the history undergrad major required 2 courses each in the areas of "the Americas, Europe, and the rest of the world." After years of faculty and student complaints that this perpetuates a Western-centric study of the field and marginalizes the study of non-Western histories, the requirement is now worded as "Asia, Middle East, Oceania." One might argue that this is one of those useless words mincing PC instances that doesn't matter in the face of larger issues, but I think it's a meaningful change.

Now, any of these hiring stories can simply be explained by a "oh, faculty hiring is more complicated than that," and certainly, it is. It seems that it's the trend though that people are pissed about. The trend, so goes the argument, says something about the decisionmakers and underlying discrimination of who gets to stay/what subjects should be focused on in the curriculum.

These and other similar anecdotes are common themes in the YDN and rather prominent at other top-tier universities as well. From what I understand, these are what the Halloween email (and overtly racist remarks about a "white blonde girls only" party at a frat the same week) reminded students of. I've been to the protests on campus and listened to what students were complaining about, and it is this perceived history of institutional discrimination/racism that students are rebelling against. Yes, the Master thing got out of hand and the behavior in that YouTube video is truly unacceptable. But if you've been on campus listening (or trying to listen as much you can post-call shift...), the conversations taking place are very much related to the examples I've given and have been rather civil. The MS3s I've spoken to on service are not fans of the med student activists; apparently most of the school doesn't care for it but people are dragged to the protests by their friends and yada yada yada.

Just some perspective from my first-hand observations on campus over the past couple of weeks. This generation of kids has their fair share of cry babies and useless social justice warriors crying out for stupid **** and all, but the general perception of students on campus is that there are real problems to be dealt with and there are a couple of good ideas circulating on how to deal with them. I've yet to read a news coverage story that fairly represents the real situation. It's all twisted into some BS about free speech...I don't think they're trying to restrict free speech. They're just saying that so and so speech defends the perception that this institution wasn't made for anyone but white males and calling it out.

Again, I say all this as a rather neutral observant. I don't know much more about the details but felt the need to speak up regarding the examples of institutional discrimination/racism and some perspective of what's happening around Yale. I can try to answer questions if anyone cares lol idk? Maybe when I'm off or another slow call shift.
 
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Here ya go...

 
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dont tax beer.
 
whino school of medicine is now accepting applications and transfers.
 
Okay so I know we're a little past this but I just made an account literally because I saw honest attempts at conversation and examples among all the trigger finger bull**** in this thread. Full disclosure, I'm doing a prelim year at YSM so I like to believe I see the situation both as a stakeholder but also as a passerby as well.

From what I hear from my undergrad mentees (I am a "grad affiliate" at a residential college) and have read from the YDN, there is a real concern that Yale (and other similar universities) is pretty terrible at retaining diverse faculty, supporting departments that focus on topics related to diversity and race (e.g., cultural studies in particular), and supporting low-income/minority students in their educational/social lives.
There have been a couple of highly publicized (in the YDN, that is) faculty departures in the past couple of years, especially in African American studies, women's/gender studies, and the language departments. Some of these were standard tenure denials while others were like the Asian anthro prof who moved after being promised much more support and grant money there that Yale just wouldn't give her.
On top of this, student demands for more Asian/African-American courses and research opportunities have been ignored while the University continues to pour time and money into the more traditional "WASP-y" areas of study like Western history, philosophy, literature (e.g., the monstrous history department at Yale only has 1 full-time professor who focuses on modern Asian studies despite annual op-eds from students asking for more).
There have been a couple of very prominent black scholars/poets at Yale's large departments of English/philosophy who were denied tenure for inexplicable reasons and subsequently quickly picked up by rival R1 institutions.
At the medical school more specifically, there was a sexual harassment scandal last year around the time I interviewed where a tenured white male cardiologist had a Bill Cosby-like storm of accusations alleged decades of misconduct, but he kept his position and the YSM Dean said he supported the doc completely because of his service to the University and had no reason to doubt him or fire him as such, much to the anger of many students, females, and minorities who do not feel that the school supports them in certain ways that it purports to.
Last year, the cultural centers had many problems with administration and directors who weren't supportive of the center's activities and students but it took the College a long time and many screeching complaints to find them better directors and start restructuring the centers.
One of my mentees is a premed history major and said that until a couple of hears ago, the history undergrad major required 2 courses each in the areas of "the Americas, Europe, and the rest of the world." After years of faculty and student complaints that this perpetuates a Western-centric study of the field and marginalizes the study of non-Western histories, the requirement is now worded as "Asia, Middle East, Oceania." One might argue that this is one of those useless words mincing PC instances that doesn't matter in the face of larger issues, but I think it's a meaningful change.

Now, any of these hiring stories can simply be explained by a "oh, faculty hiring is more complicated than that," and certainly, it is. It seems that it's the trend though that people are pissed about. The trend, so goes the argument, says something about the decisionmakers and underlying discrimination of who gets to stay/what subjects should be focused on in the curriculum.

These and other similar anecdotes are common themes in the YDN and rather prominent at other top-tier universities as well. From what I understand, these are what the Halloween email (and overtly racist remarks about a "white blonde girls only" party at a frat the same week) reminded students of. I've been to the protests on campus and listened to what students were complaining about, and it is this perceived history of institutional discrimination/racism that students are rebelling against. Yes, the Master thing got out of hand and the behavior in that YouTube video is truly unacceptable. But if you've been on campus listening (or trying to listen as much you can post-call shift...), the conversations taking place are very much related to the examples I've given and have been rather civil. The MS3s I've spoken to on service are not fans of the med student activists; apparently most of the school doesn't care for it but people are dragged to the protests by their friends and yada yada yada.

Just some perspective from my first-hand observations on campus over the past couple of weeks. This generation of kids has their fair share of cry babies and useless social justice warriors crying out for stupid **** and all, but the general perception of students on campus is that there are real problems to be dealt with and there are a couple of good ideas circulating on how to deal with them. I've yet to read a news coverage story that fairly represents the real situation. It's all twisted into some BS about free speech...I don't think they're trying to restrict free speech. They're just saying that so and so speech defends the perception that this institution wasn't made for anyone but white males and calling it out.

Again, I say all this as a rather neutral observant. I don't know much more about the details but felt the need to speak up regarding the examples of institutional discrimination/racism and some perspective of what's happening around Yale. I can try to answer questions if anyone cares lol idk? Maybe when I'm off or another slow call shift.

So, do you agree with Christakis' choice to resign? Do you think that people crying over hurt feelings and the right not to be offended are hurting a deeper, more important message, or do you think some Halloween costumes should be banned, along with their other demands for diversity initiatives?
 
once an idiot ... always an idiot ...
 
Okay so I know we're a little past this but I just made an account literally because I saw honest attempts at conversation and examples among all the trigger finger bull**** in this thread. Full disclosure, I'm doing a prelim year at YSM so I like to believe I see the situation both as a stakeholder but also as a passerby as well.

From what I hear from my undergrad mentees (I am a "grad affiliate" at a residential college) and have read from the YDN, there is a real concern that Yale (and other similar universities) is pretty terrible at retaining diverse faculty, supporting departments that focus on topics related to diversity and race (e.g., cultural studies in particular), and supporting low-income/minority students in their educational/social lives.
There have been a couple of highly publicized (in the YDN, that is) faculty departures in the past couple of years, especially in African American studies, women's/gender studies, and the language departments. Some of these were standard tenure denials while others were like the Asian anthro prof who moved after being promised much more support and grant money there that Yale just wouldn't give her.
On top of this, student demands for more Asian/African-American courses and research opportunities have been ignored while the University continues to pour time and money into the more traditional "WASP-y" areas of study like Western history, philosophy, literature (e.g., the monstrous history department at Yale only has 1 full-time professor who focuses on modern Asian studies despite annual op-eds from students asking for more).
There have been a couple of very prominent black scholars/poets at Yale's large departments of English/philosophy who were denied tenure for inexplicable reasons and subsequently quickly picked up by rival R1 institutions.
At the medical school more specifically, there was a sexual harassment scandal last year around the time I interviewed where a tenured white male cardiologist had a Bill Cosby-like storm of accusations alleged decades of misconduct, but he kept his position and the YSM Dean said he supported the doc completely because of his service to the University and had no reason to doubt him or fire him as such, much to the anger of many students, females, and minorities who do not feel that the school supports them in certain ways that it purports to.
Last year, the cultural centers had many problems with administration and directors who weren't supportive of the center's activities and students but it took the College a long time and many screeching complaints to find them better directors and start restructuring the centers.
One of my mentees is a premed history major and said that until a couple of hears ago, the history undergrad major required 2 courses each in the areas of "the Americas, Europe, and the rest of the world." After years of faculty and student complaints that this perpetuates a Western-centric study of the field and marginalizes the study of non-Western histories, the requirement is now worded as "Asia, Middle East, Oceania." One might argue that this is one of those useless words mincing PC instances that doesn't matter in the face of larger issues, but I think it's a meaningful change.

Now, any of these hiring stories can simply be explained by a "oh, faculty hiring is more complicated than that," and certainly, it is. It seems that it's the trend though that people are pissed about. The trend, so goes the argument, says something about the decisionmakers and underlying discrimination of who gets to stay/what subjects should be focused on in the curriculum.

These and other similar anecdotes are common themes in the YDN and rather prominent at other top-tier universities as well. From what I understand, these are what the Halloween email (and overtly racist remarks about a "white blonde girls only" party at a frat the same week) reminded students of. I've been to the protests on campus and listened to what students were complaining about, and it is this perceived history of institutional discrimination/racism that students are rebelling against. Yes, the Master thing got out of hand and the behavior in that YouTube video is truly unacceptable. But if you've been on campus listening (or trying to listen as much you can post-call shift...), the conversations taking place are very much related to the examples I've given and have been rather civil. The MS3s I've spoken to on service are not fans of the med student activists; apparently most of the school doesn't care for it but people are dragged to the protests by their friends and yada yada yada.

Just some perspective from my first-hand observations on campus over the past couple of weeks. This generation of kids has their fair share of cry babies and useless social justice warriors crying out for stupid **** and all, but the general perception of students on campus is that there are real problems to be dealt with and there are a couple of good ideas circulating on how to deal with them. I've yet to read a news coverage story that fairly represents the real situation. It's all twisted into some BS about free speech...I don't think they're trying to restrict free speech. They're just saying that so and so speech defends the perception that this institution wasn't made for anyone but white males and calling it out.

Again, I say all this as a rather neutral observant. I don't know much more about the details but felt the need to speak up regarding the examples of institutional discrimination/racism and some perspective of what's happening around Yale. I can try to answer questions if anyone cares lol idk? Maybe when I'm off or another slow call shift.

That's all legitimate but what does any of this have to do with the medical school? I have no idea about what goes on in the undergraduate campus at my school.
 
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Okay so I know we're a little past this but I just made an account literally because I saw honest attempts at conversation and examples among all the trigger finger bull**** in this thread. Full disclosure, I'm doing a prelim year at YSM so I like to believe I see the situation both as a stakeholder but also as a passerby as well.

From what I hear from my undergrad mentees (I am a "grad affiliate" at a residential college) and have read from the YDN, there is a real concern that Yale (and other similar universities) is pretty terrible at retaining diverse faculty, supporting departments that focus on topics related to diversity and race (e.g., cultural studies in particular), and supporting low-income/minority students in their educational/social lives.
There have been a couple of highly publicized (in the YDN, that is) faculty departures in the past couple of years, especially in African American studies, women's/gender studies, and the language departments. Some of these were standard tenure denials while others were like the Asian anthro prof who moved after being promised much more support and grant money there that Yale just wouldn't give her.
On top of this, student demands for more Asian/African-American courses and research opportunities have been ignored while the University continues to pour time and money into the more traditional "WASP-y" areas of study like Western history, philosophy, literature (e.g., the monstrous history department at Yale only has 1 full-time professor who focuses on modern Asian studies despite annual op-eds from students asking for more).
There have been a couple of very prominent black scholars/poets at Yale's large departments of English/philosophy who were denied tenure for inexplicable reasons and subsequently quickly picked up by rival R1 institutions.
At the medical school more specifically, there was a sexual harassment scandal last year around the time I interviewed where a tenured white male cardiologist had a Bill Cosby-like storm of accusations alleged decades of misconduct, but he kept his position and the YSM Dean said he supported the doc completely because of his service to the University and had no reason to doubt him or fire him as such, much to the anger of many students, females, and minorities who do not feel that the school supports them in certain ways that it purports to.
Last year, the cultural centers had many problems with administration and directors who weren't supportive of the center's activities and students but it took the College a long time and many screeching complaints to find them better directors and start restructuring the centers.
One of my mentees is a premed history major and said that until a couple of hears ago, the history undergrad major required 2 courses each in the areas of "the Americas, Europe, and the rest of the world." After years of faculty and student complaints that this perpetuates a Western-centric study of the field and marginalizes the study of non-Western histories, the requirement is now worded as "Asia, Middle East, Oceania." One might argue that this is one of those useless words mincing PC instances that doesn't matter in the face of larger issues, but I think it's a meaningful change.

Now, any of these hiring stories can simply be explained by a "oh, faculty hiring is more complicated than that," and certainly, it is. It seems that it's the trend though that people are pissed about. The trend, so goes the argument, says something about the decisionmakers and underlying discrimination of who gets to stay/what subjects should be focused on in the curriculum.

These and other similar anecdotes are common themes in the YDN and rather prominent at other top-tier universities as well. From what I understand, these are what the Halloween email (and overtly racist remarks about a "white blonde girls only" party at a frat the same week) reminded students of. I've been to the protests on campus and listened to what students were complaining about, and it is this perceived history of institutional discrimination/racism that students are rebelling against. Yes, the Master thing got out of hand and the behavior in that YouTube video is truly unacceptable. But if you've been on campus listening (or trying to listen as much you can post-call shift...), the conversations taking place are very much related to the examples I've given and have been rather civil. The MS3s I've spoken to on service are not fans of the med student activists; apparently most of the school doesn't care for it but people are dragged to the protests by their friends and yada yada yada.

Just some perspective from my first-hand observations on campus over the past couple of weeks. This generation of kids has their fair share of cry babies and useless social justice warriors crying out for stupid **** and all, but the general perception of students on campus is that there are real problems to be dealt with and there are a couple of good ideas circulating on how to deal with them. I've yet to read a news coverage story that fairly represents the real situation. It's all twisted into some BS about free speech...I don't think they're trying to restrict free speech. They're just saying that so and so speech defends the perception that this institution wasn't made for anyone but white males and calling it out.

Again, I say all this as a rather neutral observant. I don't know much more about the details but felt the need to speak up regarding the examples of institutional discrimination/racism and some perspective of what's happening around Yale. I can try to answer questions if anyone cares lol idk? Maybe when I'm off or another slow call shift.

It sounds like there is a lack of communication from the top down. I imagine institutions like Yale would tend to 'entrench' rather than change due to their status and prestige. If these issues truly are based in a racist ideology, then that's awful.

However, I think students (employees too, for that matter) tend to oversimplify issues as there is a lot of politics involved in everything you have mentioned. Just because students ask for something doesn't mean it's going to happen. There's definitely more going on behind-the-scenes like funding or budgeting issues when it comes to new courses and faculty. Also, I'm not sure of the 'tenure rate' for most places but I imagine people get denied all the time and there never is an explanation, because they're not going to say they denied someone because they were an a-hole or because they weren't a good professor. Then again, I'm not at Yale.
 
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So, do you agree with Christakis' choice to resign? Do you think that people crying over hurt feelings and the right not to be offended are hurting a deeper, more important message, or do you think some Halloween costumes should be banned, along with their other demands for diversity initiatives?
Neither of the Christakises resigned. Erika Christakis (the wife) just said she's not interested in teaching anymore but will remain Associate Master by way of her husband's appointment and the reality of her, er, living with the family in the college (Masters live with students in the college full-time). Technically she can be removed but that would be a whole other level of awkward since it involves kicking her out of Silliman College. Also, I'm not sure on the Halloween details but no costumes were banned at any point in time, nor were students asking for outright bans; they were just arguing for non-overtly caricature costumes. I personally think there's just too fine a line between costume play and poking fun at certain stereotypes, as Goro pointed out, for mass judgments to be made. I would be against stuff that has been historically used in a racist manner (e.g., blackface, yellowface) and would have to judge other examples by how the wearer conducted him/herself. For example I am part-Indian and I'm ok with a bhangra costume but if you start mimicking accents or the IT stereotype then I would be pissed. Again, nothing on campus had to do with Halloween specifically. It just reminded people of many examples of constant marginalization they felt. As someone who went to an elite undergrad and med school as well, I am sympathetic to their motives but not so much with some of the actions these kids have taken.
 
That's all legitimate but what does any of this have to do with the medical school? I have no idea about what goes on in the undergraduate campus at my school.
It doesn't. I just saw that the conversation turned towards the Yale protests/debate at large with the posting of the YouTube video. The med school thing has not garnered any traction that I can tell (but again, as a resident I am not as immersed). All the activity is about the core undergraduate issues. I haven't read the student list of demands and don't care to, but in the short conversations I've had with MS3s in the past month, they tell me that maybe 20-30% of the statement makes sense and points out ways in which medical teaching doesn't serve minorities properly (? again, not sure on details but anyone >MS4 can come up with examples...my guess is that they are unhappy with interpersonal communication, more incentives to do primary care, it's definitely something the field should work on more). Then apparently the rest of it is BS and nobody likes it lol?

Also I also just really wanted to respond to @The Knife & Gun Club 's call for examples because the poor guy wasn't getting any and that kinda sucked for the thread
 
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It sounds like there is a lack of communication from the top down. I imagine institutions like Yale would tend to 'entrench' rather than change due to their status and prestige. If these issues truly are based in a racist ideology, then that's awful.

However, I think students (employees too, for that matter) tend to oversimplify issues as there is a lot of politics involved in everything you have mentioned. Just because students ask for something doesn't mean it's going to happen. There's definitely more going on behind-the-scenes like funding or budgeting issues when it comes to new courses and faculty. Also, I'm not sure of the 'tenure rate' for most places but I imagine people get denied all the time and there never is an explanation, because they're not going to say they denied someone because they were an a-hole or because they weren't a good professor. Then again, I'm not at Yale.
Yeah that's definitely true and it was what I first thought as well, but it seems like these issues have been constantly discussed and brought up and the trends students are pointing out stretch back 10+ years and they don't feel anything is being done at all. The counterargument against the "oh it's more complicated" is always to point to other Western-centric initiatives being supported while other similar ones are not. e.g., European history expanding/getting more resources while nothing else is moving. Again, I think that's the evidence to support the arguments for an institutional bias. The other common theme (both here and where I did undergrad) is the "well you can't say s/he sucked at their research, otherwise a similar rival institution wouldn't have barreled through their tenure request and given it to them so quickly unless you're saying Yale is just so much more prestigious/high criteria than, say, Princeton/Stanford"

And I don't think people are overtly racist. That's the point with institutional discrimination...no one is doing it purposefully or holding meetings where they say "Damn Korean studies, we shall never allow!" But when it comes time to divvy up resources and hire people at the margin, the decisions typically favor white males, Western-centric, old school boys type stuff. I had a friend in med school who did medical anthro and he read a bunch of stuff all the time detailing how more diverse, non-white faculty are more prone to exploring issues related to minorities and elucidating trends that matter to the community. e.g., the profs who started sociology in inner cities about the crime and unemployment stuff? Yah they weren't white, shocker right. I think that's what people are getting at. @The Knife & Gun Club more discussion for you
 
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I am, which is remarkable given how much experience on the inside of government agencies!
Actually its expected, since those who work in the federal govt get better benefits than those in the private sector, since they tend to be unionized. I'm not surprised they think the solution for the rest of us who love our private insurance, is for me to give it up and have the govt to be my health insurance company.
 
Actually its expected, since those who work in the federal govt get better benefits than those in the private sector, since they tend to be unionized. I'm not surprised they think the solution for the rest of us who love our private insurance, is for me to give it up and have the govt to be my health insurance company.

I didn't work for the feds. My benefits were pretty decent, but my salary was much lower than I could have gotten in the private sector. I only stuck around because I wanted the job security while I finished up my degree and whatnot. I had private insurance, though it was something like 80% employer-paid. The government wasn't my health insurance company.
 
Given the tradition of cost effectiveness and efficiency at which our govt operates and implements its various agencies, what it the rationale behind having them as the single payer (other than universal "coverage")?
 
Given the tradition of cost effectiveness and efficiency at which our govt operates and implements its various agencies, what it the rationale behind having them as the single payer (other than universal "coverage")?

That's enough rationale by itself. Millions of people without health care is unacceptable in this country in 2016.
 
Given the tradition of cost effectiveness and efficiency at which our govt operates and implements its various agencies, what it the rationale behind having them as the single payer (other than universal "coverage")?
That is the sole rationale. It's a moral imperative. Cost effectiveness and efficiency don't factor in.
 
That's enough rationale by itself. Millions of people without health care is unacceptable in this country in 2016.

Fair enough, but given the progressive movement towards idealistic solutions and the implication that the govt is suboptimal with cost effectiveness and efficiency, what would be a better way to achieve universal coverage without the waste or socialization of healthcare?
 
what would be a better way to achieve universal coverage without the waste or socialization of healthcare?

I honestly can't think of one. Medicaid on the low end with some sort of sliding scale assistance and tax-penalty madate just doesn't seem to work all that well.

And really, the industry we have now is so astonishingly suboptimal it's unbelievable. How many individual insurance companies, all with their own billing departments and executives and contracts and pay structures and datacenters and etc etc etc? How many different hospitals and providers and offices, each interfacing with dozens of different billing departments working under different laws and regulations with different standards and software and APIs and practices? Why would we automatically think this is better somehow?
 
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I honestly can't think of one. Medicaid on the low end with some sort of sliding scale assistance and tax-penalty madate just doesn't seem to work all that well.

And really, the industry we have now is so astonishingly suboptimal it's unbelievable. How many individual insurance companies, all with their own billing departments and executives and contracts and pay structures and datacenters and etc etc etc? How many different hospitals and providers and offices, each interfacing with dozens of different billing departments working under different laws and regulations with different standards and software and APIs and practices? Why would we automatically think this is better somehow?
I very much love my private health insurance and the availability of highly qualified, well credentialed doctors in network. You wanting to take that away from me, just so you can sleep better at night, is offensive.
 
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I very much love my private health insurance and the availability of highly qualified, well credentialed doctors in network. You wanting to take that away from me, just so you can sleep better at night, is offensive.

Those same highly-qualified, well-credentialed doctors will still be there.

But reality is that we can't continue the way we are. Health care costs are soaring and have been for a long time. Something needs to give.
 
Those same highly-qualified, well-credentialed doctors will still be there.

But reality is that we can't continue the way we are. Health care costs are soaring and have been for a long time. Something needs to give.
Healthcare Costs are soaring, let's switch to single payer!

Lol.
 
Those same highly-qualified, well-credentialed doctors will still be there.

But reality is that we can't continue the way we are. Health care costs are soaring and have been for a long time. Something needs to give.
That doesn't help me when they refuse to take new government insurance patients and I have to then be put on a waiting list because someone thinks what I need is elective.
 
You can pay for it yourself if you disagree, I guess.
Now you're just being a jerk for no reason. You would be ok trapping someone in a system in which there is only 1 health insurance option, and then being smug enough to tell them if they want healthcare to pay even more out of pocket? That is beyond low.
 
Now you're just being a jerk for no reason. You would be ok trapping someone in a system in which there is only 1 health insurance option, and then being smug enough to tell them if they want healthcare to pay even more out of pocket? That is beyond low.

If the insurance company determines it's elective, then yes. If the government-run single-payer insurance determines it's elective, then yes. It's not like that situation applies only to single-payer.
 
Now you're just being a jerk for no reason. You would be ok trapping someone in a system in which there is only 1 health insurance option, and then being smug enough to tell them if they want healthcare to pay even more out of pocket? That is beyond low.
If the insurance company determines it's elective, then yes. If the government-run single-payer insurance determines it's elective, then yes. It's not like that situation applies only to single-payer.
That's the problem with single payer utopian dreamland, it doesn't reflect reality.
If your procedure is completely elective, it's elective. They shouldn't pay anything at all for it, it's all on you.
If it's necessary and non urgent, and literature supports its non urgent nature, it goes on a wait list and gets done when time permits. Maybe in a month, maybe a year. And maybe you need a sizable copay as well?
The current system incentivizes effort. Elective and non urgent things get done as quickly as possible. People work late and on weekends for financial reward. My wife had an MRI, she got it the same day it was ordered. The center stays open until midnight.
If a surgeon has a guaranteed base salary of 250, but can work harder and make 450+ by working until 6 every day instead of 3:30, what do you think he's adding all those cases on for. Low paying single payer or fixed income state physicians destroys that.
If you minimize or remove financial incentives for universal coverage, expect long wait times for all elective procedures and triaged non urgent procedures.
Nobody will be working after 3:30 except for the skeleton crew doing truly urgent or emergent cases.
 
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I honestly can't think of one. Medicaid on the low end with some sort of sliding scale assistance and tax-penalty madate just doesn't seem to work all that well.

And really, the industry we have now is so astonishingly suboptimal it's unbelievable. How many individual insurance companies, all with their own billing departments and executives and contracts and pay structures and datacenters and etc etc etc? How many different hospitals and providers and offices, each interfacing with dozens of different billing departments working under different laws and regulations with different standards and software and APIs and practices? Why would we automatically think this is better somehow?

I don't think anyone would argue that the current system is "better somehow." The question is whether the alternative would be.
 
That's the problem with single payer utopian dreamland, it doesn't reflect reality.
If your procedure is completely elective, it's elective. They shouldn't pay anything at all.
If it's necessary and non urgent, and literature supports its non urgent nature, it goes on a wait list and gets done when time permits. Maybe in a month, maybe a year. And maybe you need a sizable copay as well?
The current system incentivizes effort. Elective and non urgent things get done as quickly as possible. People work late and on weekends for financial reward. My wife had an MRI, she got it the same day it was ordered. The center stays open until midnight.
If a surgeon has a guaranteed base salary of 250, but can work harder and make 450+ by working until 6 instead of 3:30, what do you think he's adding all those cases on for.
If you minimize or remove financial incentives for universal coverage, expect long wait times for all elective procedures and triaged non urgent procedures.
Nobody will be working after 3:30 except for the skeleton crew doing truly urgent or emergent cases.

Agree with most of this.

On a much smaller scale, we see the same thing in my residency program. Residents have no financial incentive to do more than what's expected at baseline. There is absolutely no incentive on our part to work an extra patient in for a skin tag removal or something of that nature. Truthfully, there's no incentive to work in a patient who thinks they have a melanoma; however, most of the time there's at least a small voice in the back of your head suggesting it's the neighborly thing to do.

But as it stands now, if you're my patient and you call in requesting to have a bunch of seborrheic keratoses treated with liquid nitrogen, or want to have a bunch of skin tags snipped off, you will be waiting ~8 months, and you will be paying out of pocket. It makes no difference to me or my colleagues, we are still going to get paid the same whether we add you on to the end of our day, or see you in a regularly booked appointment in half a year. And since most of us value our time otherwise, it's going to be the latter.
 
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If a surgeon has a guaranteed base salary of 250, but can work harder and make 450+ by working until 6 every day instead of 3:30, what do you think he's adding all those cases on for. Low paying single payer or fixed income state physicians destroys that.
If you minimize or remove financial incentives for universal coverage, expect long wait times for all elective procedures and triaged non urgent procedures.
Nobody will be working after 3:30 except for the skeleton crew doing truly urgent or emergent cases.

Why would single-payer necessarily eliminate the ability of a physician to make more money by working more cases?
 
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