Yale surgical residency loses its accreditation

[Wahoo]

Just got an e-mail about this; thought I'd share:

(copied e-mail follows)
---------------------------------------------
Hi Folks,

I confirmed today that the Yale surgical program has LOST its ACGME
accreditation beginning in July 2003 (these things are done a year ahead of
time). Supposedly, poor teaching and excessive work hours were two of the
reasons cited, but no confirmation on that yet.

We were able to get a few reporters to pick up this story, so look out for
an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education soon. This will probably
get picked up by a lot of other papers as well since this is Yale we are
talking about. Its a program that has been losing residents over the past
few years because of poor working conditions. Considering the ACGME doesn't
crack down this hard on virtually anyone, this is really quite a striking
development.

Yale has a chance to redeem themselves by next year, and get their
accreditation back, but all my sources feel its unlikely to happen.
Incredible!
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[Scooby Doo]

Wow....that's wild!!!

So I guess that just hurries my withdrawal from Yale

 

[Cdc28p]

Yup, it's true. The ACGME website confirms this.

 

[UofMNguy]

This is hard to believe... but I imagine if it is true it will quickly make news.... like JHU with the research death... maybe this is a clever way to get people to withdraw... a huge conspiracy... I am a vikings fan.. we have lost 4 superbowls... Bush vs. Gore.... hmmmm....

 

[UofMNguy]

there goes my conspiracy theory... <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> Maybe it is possible the vikings lost 4 superbowls... but the NFC game 1998... the infamous... knee at the end...

 

[johnM]

This was discussed in the Rotations forum a while back... they go in to why it happened and what it means. look for choker's responce, as I believe he is a resident there and knows what this is all about. <a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001736" target="_blank">Yale surgery residency stripped </a>

as for me, this definitely means that I'm withdrawing for Yale. I guess now I just have to narrow it down from HMS, Hopkins, UCSF and Duke. :wink:

 

[Cdc28p]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by johnM:
•This was discussed in the Rotations forum a while back... they go in to why it happened and what it means. look for choker's responce, as I believe he is a resident there and knows what this is all about. <a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001736" target="_blank">Yale surgery residency stripped </a>

as for me, this definitely means that I'm withdrawing for Yale. I guess now I just have to narrow it down from HMS, Hopkins, UCSF and Duke. :wink: •••••Hmm... don't go to HMS. (Some of you know what I mean. :wink: )

 

[Coalboy]

This all makes me feel better about being rejected by Yale.

 

[Premed2003]

does this affect the med school, or just the residency program? <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" />

 

[rxfudd]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Premed2003:
•does this affect the med school, or just the residency program? <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> •••••If it were to go through, it would affect the entire Yale system. Best of luck doing a surgery rotation without residents. And think about how many rotations have surgery as a prereq. Clearly, Yale will have to meet ACGME standards to prevent what will be a catastrophe for their hospital and medical school.

 

[sandflea]

i don't think it means that the current residents there have to find another place to go. they still stay and continue to train. it's just that the program is on probation, i believe, and yale needs to get its act together to regain its accreditation.

i don't think it affects med students. northwestern's general surgery residency is on probation too but no one ever hears about it and i doubt it affected anybody's desire to apply there as a med student.

 

[Street Philosopher]

I thought Yale was gonna be #1 med school in the nation. lol

 

[Wahoo]

•••quote:•••i don't think it affects med students. northwestern's general surgery residency is on probation too but no one ever hears about it and i doubt it affected anybody's desire to apply there as a med student.[/QB]••••I'm not sure what the impact will be on the medical school itself, but the situation is a bit different than what is happening at Northwestern. If you look at the acgme.org website, it lists the Northwestern Gen-Surg department under "Probationary accreditation" whereas Yale's is listed as "Accreditation withdrawn."

 

[sandflea]

from what i understand, northwestern is a step ahead of yale. i think northwestern actually lost their accreditation at one point and is now on probation, which is the next step for yale once they start revising their program.

i'm not 100% sure about the way the process works. i knew that NU and yale weren't in the same situation but as i understood it NU was starting to pull out of the problems that arose a few years ago.

 

[Zulq]

This is what draper, a combined plastics resident at Yale, had to say on the other thread:

•••quote:••• the RRC presented the situation as one in which Yale has one more chance to come up with a package in July 2002 to comply with the RRC demands or it will lose accreditation.

When Bridgeport Hospital lost its surgical program 8 years ago, it merged with Yale and therefore created a provisional accreditation which precludes a probation period. Therefore, whereas other programs with full accreditation would probably be placed on probation, Yale cannot.
••••As I understand it, they lost their accreditation for the year 2002-3, and will have one more chance to regain it in July.

 

[Wahoo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by sandflea:
•from what i understand, northwestern is a step ahead of yale. i think northwestern actually lost their accreditation at one point and is now on probation, which is the next step for yale once they start revising their program.

i'm not 100% sure about the way the process works. i knew that NU and yale weren't in the same situation but as i understood it NU was starting to pull out of the problems that arose a few years ago.•••••Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll check with the person who initially sent me the e-mail to ask why his sources all seem to doubt Yale will be able to regain their accreditation, and let you all know.

 

[Cambrian]

Does this mean there will be a massive waitlist movement for Yale come May 15th? Or even now?

 

[CANES2006]

<img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> I'm in shock. Yale is supposed to be one of the best medical schools in the nation or so I thought. This will be very debilitating for its entire institution if the decision still stands by the end of the year. I guess one shouldn't go there if one is planning on doing surgery. Thankfully, many graduates there become researchers and not surgeons. But, still.

 

[Legend]

Good that I didn't complete Yale's secondary.
:wink:

 

[Michelys]

Yale &lt;-------- AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA ON YOUUU! SUCKAS! Whew...that felt good

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•Yale &lt;-------- AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA ON YOUUU! SUCKAS! Whew...that felt good •••••Damn..are you still around? I thought you were a troll that went back under her bridge....

 

[Michelys]

Scoob...get off my ass and find someone else to make stupid pre-K jokes at! Gimme some good cracks at least--I do have a sense of humor!

 

[LizardKing]

Yea Scoob, that's the same person. The troll.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•Yale &lt;-------- AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA ON YOUUU! SUCKAS! Whew...that felt good •••••Damn..are you still around? I thought you were a troll that went back under her bridge....•••••

 

[choker]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by johnM:
• look for choker's responce, as I believe he is a resident there and knows what this is all about.•••••you are confused dude. i neither responded nor am a resident. im a senior in college

 

[brickmanli]

Does every medical school possess a surgery residency program and is each of them accredited except for Yale?

 

[CANES2006]

I think so, brickmanli. Anyone has any info. on this?

 

[maitai]

i've looked all over the acgme website and can't find where this info is posted, even with a search... could someone provide the exact link or direct me there? thanks!

 

[johnM]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by johnM:
• look for choker's responce, as I believe he is a resident there and knows what this is all about.•••••you are confused dude. i neither responded nor am a resident. im a senior in college •••••My bad. You're right, I'm a confused dude. I wrote the wrong screen name.

 

[Mustafa]

<a href="http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/institution/program.asp?programid=7142&masterid=271&stateid=7" target="_blank">http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/institution/program.asp?programid=7142&masterid=271&stateid=7</a>

Yale general surgery residency has lost its accreditation.

 

[locitamd]

Dean Kessler announced to students this morning that he believes the accreditation will be reinstated by the end of summer or October by the latest.

 

[Darwin]

Of course he does...what's he supposed to say? "There's no hope folks...we're going under..." Seems to me that he might just be calming some fears. I hope he's right though...Yale rejected me but it surely wouldn't be good for the entire system if schools like Yale start having problems like this. Or, maybe it will start the ball rolling on changing brutal residency years...

 

[Hopkins2010]

I hope Yale gets its accreditation back too.. but I want them to do it the right way.

I imagine that the temptation must be there to try and get a quick fix without really trying to address the RRC's concerns.

I dont want to accuse Yale of impropriety, but its common knowledge that a lot of hsopitals will circumvent the regulations to try and pass under the radar of the RRC without really changing their programs.

If Yale does this the right way instead of just trying to cheat the system, then it will pay dividends eventually because I imagine many more 4th years will want to go to Yale for surgery residency because the lifestyle should be better than other places as a result of this RRC action.

 

[A-Phi-A]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by baylor21:
•I hope Yale gets its accreditation back too.. but I want them to do it the right way.

I imagine that the temptation must be there to try and get a quick fix without really trying to address the RRC's concerns.

I dont want to accuse Yale of impropriety, but its common knowledge that a lot of hsopitals will circumvent the regulations to try and pass under the radar of the RRC without really changing their programs.

If Yale does this the right way instead of just trying to cheat the system, then it will pay dividends eventually because I imagine many more 4th years will want to go to Yale for surgery residency because the lifestyle should be better than other places as a result of this RRC action.•••••True True.

 

[Thewonderer]

It is amazing to see how people on this board just turn their thumbs up and thumbs down on a school so fast. A few months ago, people who got the interviews from Yale (or didn't) started raving about Yale System. A few months later, people who get waitlisted and rejected (or accepted) start putting thumbs down after this news.

I for one am not awed by Yale. I think that Yale is an excellent school. But its admission brochure and image it tries to paint are deceptive. Their students are great but not so different from those at other excellent schools across the country. I tried to point that out in another thread but Scooby Doo basically told me that I am a bitter Yale reject. No. My point is to have a "balanced" perspective on a school. That's very important because that applies to many things in life.

So now that people are leaning the other way and rejecting Yale, I would say that don't let this accredition thing influence your view too much. You are going to the med school. You won't even rotate through surgery 2 years later. I am sure that Yale will get their accredition back ASAP. I am sure that Yale is simply unlucky and get caught with its horrendous hour for surgery residents. But I can assure you that happens everywhere. Seriously, sometimes on the wards even you go over your 80+ hour limit, you just have to stay because no one else can be responsible for your patients. The one-day per week off rule is easier to enforce. And at my school, interns don't get to see surgeries. Second years rotate through SICU, ER, etc. and don't see much surgery time either.

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Thewonderer:
•I for one am not awed by Yale. I think that Yale is an excellent school. But its admission brochure and image it tries to paint are deceptive. Their students are great but not so different from those at other excellent schools across the country. I tried to point that out in another thread but Scooby Doo basically told me that I am a bitter Yale reject. No. My point is to have a "balanced" perspective on a school. •••••Hey now, It wasn't just me...and there was reason to make it seem that way b/c you were ranting and posting your stats and saying that if you couldn't get in with that...then no one could get in....
I think most people agreed with me on your rants...

But, I do agree Yale is only a system for certain people.

 

[Thewonderer]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
•

b/c you were ranting and posting your stats and saying that if you couldn't get in with that...then no one could get in....
I think most people agreed with me on your rants...

But, I do agree Yale is only a system for certain people.•••••I was not ranting about not getting in. It was bad that I used myself as an example but I really don't know someone else who has gone to Columbia and vaccinate the whole village so I could not use that! My whole point was that using whatever unique "stories" Yale used in its article, it was misleading everyone thinking that this uniqueness permeates Yale med (i.e. apply to almost every student). And I was just pointing out that my "uniqueness" (residence in 4 countries over three continents and speaking a couple languages, etc.) did not get in and yet someone graduated from Harvard or Yale with exceptional GPA (my two friends who got into Yale had near 4.0) and MCAT, and yet a laundry list of EC's probably still got in instead that year. And I was serious when I said 3.85 is not good enough. But I guess people just don't believe me!

You were the one fixating on my GPA and MCAT.

 

[LizardKing]

I think Thewonderer has a strong point between what Yale says it looks for and the students it actually has. I mean, Yale accepts its fair share of gunners, no doubt. I think they go too far in promoting their Yale System as a haven for compassionate, friendly, relaxed, etc. people who like to think outside the box--when the reality is that students at Yale are very similar to schools elsewhere. And as far as favoring Ivy League undergrads, Yale does it more than many other schools. This is not to say Yale is a bad place to be...but I think the school misleads people by claiming they are so different.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Thewonderer:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
•

b/c you were ranting and posting your stats and saying that if you couldn't get in with that...then no one could get in....
I think most people agreed with me on your rants...

But, I do agree Yale is only a system for certain people.•••••I was not ranting about not getting in. It was bad that I used myself as an example but I really don't know someone else who has gone to Columbia and vaccinate the whole village so I could not use that! My whole point was that using whatever unique "stories" Yale used in its article, it was misleading everyone thinking that this uniqueness permeates Yale med (i.e. apply to almost every student). And I was just pointing out that my "uniqueness" (residence in 4 countries over three continents and speaking a couple languages, etc.) did not get in and yet someone graduated from Harvard or Yale with exceptional GPA (my two friends who got into Yale had near 4.0) and MCAT, and yet a laundry list of EC's probably still got in instead that year. And I was serious when I said 3.85 is not good enough. But I guess people just don't believe me!

You were the one fixating on my GPA and MCAT.•••••

 

[droliver]

Yale's surgery program's problems with the RRC were much more than getting spanked over work hours. Rigid limiting of work hours to some arbitrary # of hours per week in and of itself is at this point a tertiary concern to many on the RRC board for surgery (indeed many are philosophically opposed to it).