Yep, another DO school opening

[medhacker]

Troll? I'm a DO pal, why else would I care if the AOA has their head up their arse?

troll, D.O. ?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[yanky5]

I think all the DO schools are for profit. NYCOM is 35K/yr and going up faster than inflation. Mulitply that by over 300 students each yr and you can open up your own bank.

 

[billydoc]

So where could I get more info on possible Touro (Harlem) site opening. I went to Touro for my undergrad. But CA and NV are not an option for my family. Any insight?
Thanks

 

[rgerwin]

Sorry, but the AOA told me it only has an application, so 2008, at least, maybe later.

So where could I get more info on possible Touro (Harlem) site opening. I went to Touro for my undergrad. But CA and NV are not an option for my family. Any insight?
Thanks

 

[Ypo.]

Well, I know that there are more allopathic residency slots each year than there are new MD and DO graduates. This is why we have so many foreign medical grads. This concerns me because the US can't insure that foreign med grads have obtained the same quality of education that you get at a US school, and secondly, many of the foreign residents don't return home, which seems like a drain to their home countries. Not that I can blame them for not wanting to take a huge pay cut by returning home. But it seems like every foreign grad we gain here is one that is lost for another country.

I don't like the fact that the AOA doesn't take care of its grads by ensuring there are enough specifically osteopathic residencies. BUT, there are more than enough allopathic residencies to go around. From what I understand, these residency programs usually prefer DOs to FMGs.

So, my point is that I don't have a knee jerk reaction to new osteopathic schools open. I was reading an article the other day that projects we will have a serious physician shortage (especially in primary care because the increase in technology has led to an increase in specialization) that we are completely underprepared for. Allopathic schools have increased their admissions numbers, but not even close to the amount they should in order to prevent this shortage. This is why I don't have a problem with new DO schools opening up.

 

[medhacker]

I don't like the fact that the AOA doesn't take care of its grads by ensuring there are enough specifically osteopathic residencies. BUT, there are more than enough allopathic residencies to go around.

I have read this often on these forums, and honestly (no disrepect and I hope you are not too sensitive) but I feel confident none of us on this board has the knowleged/expertise etc of the politics/mechanis of opening up residencies to claim the AOA is not taking care of us. It is not like opening up a corner mom and pop store.

The AOA has been making progress and increasing yearly the number of residencies. Until we don't have all the details and experience in the field of opening up residencies I think it is irresponsible to make judgements about it. My veinte pesos...

 

[Ypo.]

I have read this often on these forums, and honestly (no disrepect and I hope you are not too sensitive) but I feel confident none of us on this board has the knowleged/expertise etc of the politics/mechanis of opening up residencies to claim the AOA is not taking care of us. It is not like opening up a corner mom and pop store.

The AOA has been making progress and increasing yearly the number of residencies. Until we don't have all the details and experience in the field of opening up residencies I think it is irresponsible to make judgements about it. My veinte pesos...

No offense taken. In fact, my opinion has been formed from reading the Gevitz book and from reading the opinions of osteo students and grads on these forums. So I don't think my thoughts are 'irreponsibly formed', though you may not agree with them.

The truth is that there aren't enough osteo residencies for the number of DO grads. The economy is such that hospitals have a hard time staying open, and purely DO hospitals have been hit even harder. I know it is not so simple to open up more osteo residencies. But I have heard many students complain that the AOA is failing to represent certain interests that they feel are important. There was quite a bit of upset when the combined match did not go through, for example. Many felt that since there aren't enough DO residencies to go around, it is hard on the students to go through two match processes and take both the USMLE and COMLEX. I think that the AOA, like any governing body, wants to ensure its own preservation, sometimes at the expense of student interests. Perhaps they saw combining the match as a move towards joining MD and DO schools. But unfortunately until there are enough DO residencies to go around, because of the recent AOA decision most osteo students will have no other choice than to go thru 2 match processes and 2 sets of boards.

 

[CatsandCradles]

I'm not sure why so many people are hooked unto the private "for profit" words. I don't think that was the best of words, but there are other private education osteopathic schools out there as well right?

Look at West Virgina. That's a public school with a price tag of $43K a year for all of us out of stateters.

I think Lake Erie is substantially cheaper than that - and Lake Erie isn't a public school.

 

[scpod]

Well, I know that there are more allopathic residency slots each year than there are new MD and DO graduates. This is why we have so many foreign medical grads. This concerns me because the US can't insure that foreign med grads have obtained the same quality of education that you get at a US school...

No, but they still have to take the USMLE's like everyone else. A good score on those indicates competency, in my opinion. Further, most states require FMG's to have at least three years of residency before they can be licensed. Just be glad that they can't apply for osteopathic residencies.

 

[heech]

The truth is that there aren't enough osteo residencies for the number of DO grads. The economy is such that hospitals have a hard time staying open, and purely DO hospitals have been hit even harder.

That's really not the case.

There are a *ton* of unfilled AOA-approved osteo residencies every year. Go here for the current 2006 list:
http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_match06res

If you were graduating in 2006 and you were too lazy to participate in the match, and let's say you wanted to specialize in:

- Emergency Medicine: 30 unmatched slots nationally.
- Surgery: 6 slots.
- OB/Gyn: 23 slots.

... and that doesn't include the huge quantity of slots available in traditional primary care: peds, medicine, and especially family practice (150). The real problem is the lack of slots in desirable areas, and the relative lack of desirable specialties. Most of these vacancies are clustered at a couple sites in a few states (MI, PA, OH, NY).

There was quite a bit of upset when the combined match did not go through, for example. Many felt that since there aren't enough DO residencies to go around, it is hard on the students to go through two match processes and take both the USMLE and COMLEX.

The real reason DO students want the combined match isn't because there aren't enough residencies.. it's really about wanting more option+flexibility.

Under the current system, in effect any DO programs that you rank are automatically ranked above all alleopathic residencies. (It's actually two separate matches, but the "effect" is the same.)

The purpose of a combined match would be to allow a DO student to rank both DO and MD programs. For example: #1 a DO program, #2 a MD program, #3 a DO program, etc, etc.

 

[Ypo.]

No, but they still have to take the USMLE's like everyone else. A good score on those indicates competency, in my opinion. Further, most states require FMG's to have at least three years of residency before they can be licensed. Just be glad that they can't apply for osteopathic residencies.

I agree that passing the USMLE is probably more important than what school they went to, as your true clinical education doesn't really kick in until residency. However, (depending on the country), many of them don't have to get a 4 year undergrad degree before they enter medical school. I think a well rounded education is important, but hey, thats just me.

At any rate, I am more concerned about the potential loss to the foreign health care systems than the quality of pre-residency medical education in foreign countries.

 

[Ypo.]

Under the current system, in effect any DO programs that you rank are automatically ranked above all alleopathic residencies. (It's actually two separate matches, but the "effect" is the same.)

The purpose of a combined match would be to allow a DO student to rank both DO and MD programs. For example: #1 a DO program, #2 a MD program, #3 a DO program, etc, etc.

So, if you really want an MD residency, you would need to apply only through the allo match, and hope you can get in competing against all those MDs? (or else don't apply to any osteo residency you wouldn't be happy attending).

 

[heech]

So, if you really want an MD residency, you would need to apply only through the allo match, and hope you can get in competing against all those MDs? (or else don't apply to any osteo residency you wouldn't be happy attending).

Yep, basically. Right now, a DO student wouldn't rank any DO program that wasn't superior to *all* of the MD options available. That's a pretty tall order, and it means plenty of acceptable DO residencies are discarded by ambitious DO students.

 

[Plinko]

I recently had a long conversation with my preceptor who is pretty high up in the scheme of things in the AOA, ACOI, and various other organizations. Here's the scoop he gave me.

Apparently, within the next five years there are going to be 32 DO schools in the US--this includes the so-called branch campuses of PCOM, Touro, etc. The school in Colorado is "for profit" which is why their parent institution (aka sponsor) is a medical school in the Dominican Republic. No accredited US university would be allowed such status. It is not just the students, etc. that are up in arms about this thing. He assured me that the higher ups in the AOA find this to be a travesty as well. Here's the kicker: from a legal standpoint the AOA cannot simply deny accreditation to whatever school it chooses. So long as any school meets the minimum requirements set by the AOA it has legal standing to sue the AOA for discrimination. The process is not as arbitrary as people think it is. The AOA cannot simply say I don't like the idea of a "for profit" school and throw the application out. They would be opening themselves up to assured litigation. Think of it as a sort of Civil Rights Ammendment for med school accreditation. The allopathic schools don't have this problem because the LCME has set the standard so high to get a school accredited--major teaching hospital affiliation with X number of beds, X amount of teaching faculty, 30 milliions dollars in escrow, etc--that it involves a major university, government involvement, etc to get things rolling. Some might argue that the AOA should do the same, but if they did then many of the established DO schools without major teaching hospitals, lower dollar amounts in escrow, etc. would have to close. The AOA would end up with something like ten or eleven schools (mostly the state supported ones as well as the more established ones like PCOM, KCOM, and KCUMB). As long as the standards are so low we, as well as those at the AOA, are going to have to deal with this problem and try to make the best of it.

I, like most others on this forum, think this too is a travesty. I worked hard to get into and through medical school. The standards (admissions and in medical school itself) are inherently going to be lowered from this point onward which I believe will greatly diminish the value of my degree. The COMLEX is graded on a bell curve, which means that the fail rate will continue to be the same but the difficulty of passing it will be lessened should ten more schools open up with lower admissions standards (which I believe is inevitable). I should say that I am not against the expansion of the DO profession, so long as its done right: e.g. reputable parent institution as the university affiliate, not for profit status, truly underserved community (e.g. Alaska, Idaho, Montana), etc. Not these diploma mills that are apparently driven solely by money making vulchers. Just my personal opinion, but I think things are going to get so bad in the next decade that they are going to boil over to the point that certain DO schools that are more well-established (particularly the state-supported schools) are going to seek accreditation from another governing body (e.g. the LCME). There is alreadly some noise being made about such a move at my school.

 

[DragonWell]

I recently had a long conversation with my preceptor who is pretty high up in the scheme of things in the AOA, ACOI, and various other organizations....

Very interesting post. I kind of figured there was more to the story...

Why 32 DO schools? I wonder if these are all in the pipe, or if there is some kind of capacity based on residency, physician supply and demand, etc. that is being factored into the equation. Doesn't it seems that at a certain point, the AMA or LCME or whoever, is going to begin to see this unchecked expansion as a threat and either actively fight it or maybe try to assimilate it? Either way, I think the not too distant future holds many changes...

I'm trying to keep all the schools straight - anybody know any corrections or additions to the list below?

1. ATSU
2. AZCOM
3. CCOM
4. DMU-COM
5. KCUMB
6. LECOM
7. LECOM -B
8. MSUCOM
9. NSUCOM
10. NYCOM
11. OSUCOM
12. OUCOM
13. PCOM
14. PCOM-GA
15. PCSOM
16. TUCOM-MI
17. TUCOM- NV
18. UMDNJ
17.UNECOM
18. TCOM
19. VCOM
20. COMP
21. WVSOM
-------------
22. ATSU - Phoenix, AZ
23. LMU - Harrogate, TN
24. Touro? - Harlem, NY
25. Rocky Vista University COM - Denver, CO
26. Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences - Yakima, WA
27.?
28.?
29.?
30.?
31.?
32.?

 

[NonTradMed]

I agree that passing the USMLE is probably more important than what school they went to, as your true clinical education doesn't really kick in until residency. However, (depending on the country), many of them don't have to get a 4 year undergrad degree before they enter medical school. I think a well rounded education is important, but hey, thats just me.

Well, to be fair, many countries have their medical education program as part of their undergraduate program

England, Ireland have their medical school at the undergrad, so does China, Japan and I believe South Korea. Think of it as a six year program where all you do is your pre-reqs and then you go straight into the medical school classes. In effect, that's what the kids in the US go through. The only difference is that the kids from these six year programs don't focus on any other degree except for medicine. Think of it as a biology degree that overlaps with a medical program.

When these students graduate, they are doctors, but not post-doctoral students since the study of medicine is an undergraduate program. In Europe, they are given MBBS I think (which translates to MD in the US). MDs in England are medical researchers, not clinicians. I've had two family members study in Chinese universities for their medical degree and I can't say they are missing anything in the basic sciences.

Any disparity in quality of a foreign education would probably be in the clinical years as residency US style is not shared the world over. I would concur that Chinese doctors are not trained to nearly the same quality as US doctors during their clinical years before becoming full attending.

However, that bears little on the US since all foreign doctors who want to practice here have to pass their USMLE boards and then do (redo?) a residency. So I do not begrudge the medical education of foreign doctors. Besides, you know those snotty Europeans will remind us Americans that their med school's been around longer than ours.

At any rate, I am more concerned about the potential loss to the foreign health care systems than the quality of pre-residency medical education in foreign countries.

Yeah, you should read up on the medical brain drain in the Philippines....so many doctors are leaving the country for greener pasture...very sad.



Now....the DO opening thing....well, I think the more the merrier but the fast rate that schools are opening makes me question the quality. As previously stated, clinical education is what (IMHO) makes a US doc stand out among many others the world over. And I have my doubts that the new schools are able to ensure their kids will get good clinical education or adequate residencies. Also, 'for profit' just reeks of something unpleasant.

"For profit" means the school is beholden to stockholders and they will maximize profits, not necessarily maximize the educational experience. Money made is not shovelled back to the school unless it can make more money, rather it is shoved into the pockets of it's owners and shareholders. Nonprofit at least means any profit will be put back into the school for research, student education or professorships. So I'm not sure the 'for profit' image is something DOs want to portray, after all, the only other for profit med schools the US medical establishment is familiar with is in the Caribbeans.

 

[medhacker]

What a load of rumor histeria

2 main ideas to steer away from it:

1)They all have to pass the boards

2)For profit or not they will not function unregulated - same standars for both



In a good 10 years if SDN still exists I will resurrect this thread and see if all this ominous ballyhoo took place...my opinion? it will not...

 

[CatsandCradles]

I recently had a long conversation with my preceptor who is pretty high up in the scheme of things in the AOA, ACOI, and various other organizations. Here's the scoop he gave me.

Apparently, within the next five years there are going to be 32 DO schools in the US--this includes the so-called branch campuses of PCOM, Touro, etc. The school in Colorado is "for profit" which is why their parent institution (aka sponsor) is a medical school in the Dominican Republic. No accredited US university would be allowed such status.

Ok, I think that is a completely wrong. The parent school is in the Dominican Republic?

That makes we worry a great deal. I felt bad when I read that.

 

[osler]

ok, so if AOA continues to allow DO schools to open up at this pace...
as a future DO, i would think that it's good for the profession, because the percentage of DOs would rise compare to MDs.

how about the quality of physicians who are coming out of these new programs? Some schools will have good curriculums and good administrators and may produce excellent physicians, but what about the rest?

Unless there is a significant increase in the number of applications to medical schools (especially DO schools), then more DO schools will likely result in students being admitted with lower GPAs, lower MCATs, less overall accomplishment...etc.

If that's the case, how will that benefit our profession by admitting under-qualified individuals? DO pass rate for USMLE recently dropped from 74% to 70%. quite interesting numbers considering that DO students are not required to take this exam, hence presumably only the most determined would choose to take it (again, i do not presume to know the motivation of DO students taking USMLE). USMLE step 1 covers the majority of what we learn in DO schools, thus is a potentially valid tool to assess basic medical knowledge. COMLEX-USA traditionally failed the bottom 8%~10% of test-takers, hence is not quite as useful when attempting to gauge the evolving quality of DO med students.

 

[DragonWell]

Unless there is a significant increase in the number of applications to medical schools (especially DO schools), then more DO schools will likely result in students being admitted with lower GPAs, lower MCATs, less overall accomplishment...etc.

I would say 20% is a rather sizeable increase in applications.

The available data doesn't appear to support the notion that more DO schools leads to acceptance of less qualified students - in fact, mean MCAT scores have increased and GPAs have remained the same. I suspect there are plenty of highly qualified students out there who might consider osteopathic medicine instead of engineering simply due to the fact that a new DO school opens nearby. The stereotype that going DO meant you had to spend four years in a cornfield in the midwest is becoming a relic of the past and it seems quite possible that new schools may actually end up attracting stronger candidates to osteopathic medicine and raising the bar for all DO schools.


JAOA • Vol 106 • No 2 • February 2006 • 51-57

"All 20 COMs experienced an increase in the number of applications for the 2004–2005 academic year, representing an overall increase in applications of 19.8% from the 2003–2004 academic year...Mean scores of Medical College Admission Tests (MCAT) for these first-year students were as follows: biological sciences, 8.53; physical sciences, 7.89; and verbal reasoning, 8.24 (Figure 3). The mean MCAT scores of osteopathic medical students entering the 2004–2005 academic year were greater than the MCAT means of the previous academic year in the verbal reasoning, physical sciences, and biological sciences sections of the test (Figure 3). The mean GPA for 2004–2005 (3.43) was equivalent to that reported in the 2001–2002 and 2002–2003 academic years."

 

[drusso]

I should say that I am not against the expansion of the DO profession, so long as its done right: e.g. reputable parent institution as the university affiliate, not for profit status, truly underserved community (e.g. Alaska, Idaho, Montana), etc. Not these diploma mills that are apparently driven solely by money making vulchers. Just my personal opinion, but I think things are going to get so bad in the next decade that they are going to boil over to the point that certain DO schools that are more well-established (particularly the state-supported schools) are going to seek accreditation from another governing body (e.g. the LCME). There is alreadly some noise being made about such a move at my school.

So....Get SOMA, COSGP, (Council of Osteopathic Student Government Presidents), NUFA, State societies, specialty colleges, etc to sponsor AOA House of Delegate Resolutions calling for review of the current COCA procedures and standards. Develop task forces, blue ribbon committees, and pay outside consultants to assist the AOA in changing their COCA procedures so *quality* is emphasized over *quantity.* Remember, this is OUR profession. The AOA exists to serve us, not for us to serve them. Get involved, get engaged, and keep the eye on the prize! Students comprise a large and vocal stake holder in the profession. Look at the profession's "population pyramid." The old guard is dying and we will inherit any last minute messes they create that will impact us 30 years hence. You are not as powerless as you perceive!

 

[DeLaughterDO]

So....Get SOMA, COSGP, (Council of Osteopathic Student Government Presidents), NUFA, State societies, specialty colleges, etc to sponsor AOA House of Delegate Resolutions calling for review of the current COCA procedures and standards. Develop task forces, blue ribbon committees, and pay outside consultants to assist the AOA in changing their COCA procedures so *quality* is emphasized over *quantity.* Remember, this is OUR profession. The AOA exists to serve us, not for us to serve them. Get involved, get engaged, and keep the eye on the prize! Students comprise a large and vocal stake holder in the profession. Look at the profession's "population pyramid." The old guard is dying and we will inherit any last minute messes they create that will impact us 30 years hence. You are not as powerless as you perceive!

I only wish this were actually true. In name, perhaps the AOA serves us, but not in practice. Why else would they have voted against the joint match when so many students were for it. Why wouldn't voting for the president and the rest of the council be a democratic process if they were there to serve us instead of their own self-serving agenda?

Answer me those questions, and maybe I'll think about it.

jd

 

[osler]

I would say 20% is a rather sizeable increase in applications.

JAOA • Vol 106 • No 2 • February 2006 • 51-57

"All 20 COMs experienced an increase in the number of applications for the 2004–2005 academic year, representing an overall increase in applications of 19.8% from the 2003–2004 academic year...Mean scores of Medical College Admission Tests (MCAT) for these first-year students were as follows: biological sciences, 8.53; physical sciences, 7.89; and verbal reasoning, 8.24 (Figure 3). The mean MCAT scores of osteopathic medical students entering the 2004–2005 academic year were greater than the MCAT means of the previous academic year in the verbal reasoning, physical sciences, and biological sciences sections of the test (Figure 3). The mean GPA for 2004–2005 (3.43) was equivalent to that reported in the 2001–2002 and 2002–2003 academic years."

i would be suspicious of these numbers. But, let's assume it's in fact, entirely true.
point #1,
how long can DO schools continue to maintain the growth of applications to its schools given the fact that more MD schools are now aggressively increasing their spots as well.

#2, there is a trend of inflation in numbers for most MD schools, feel free to peruse the website of AAMC and look at their data. The rate of inflation in numbers (MCAT and GPA) is probably similar for both DO and MD schools, therefore, i would be cautious in assuming that the quality of applicants to DO schools have gone up.

 

[DrMom]

I only wish this were actually true. In name, perhaps the AOA serves us, but not in practice. Why else would they have voted against the joint match when so many students were for it. Why wouldn't voting for the president and the rest of the council be a democratic process if they were there to serve us instead of their own self-serving agenda?

Answer me those questions, and maybe I'll think about it.

jd

There were some true concerns & logistical issues regarding the combined match. Keep in mind that I'm a big proponent...but I still saw some of the problems that could be involved. I do acknowledge, however, that some of the AOA response (at least from the top levels) was old-school thought. At this point, IMO, the best thing for this particular issue is to keep it up front & under review until the time it is well-received by those "in charge."

Keep in mind that just because lots of people want something doesn't mean that it really is in the best interest of everyone (or even those who want it)...so just because students wanted something doesn't mean that they *have* to vote in favor of it. I never got the feeling from the AOA folks that I worked with that they were trying to stick it to the students in any way, shape, manner, or form. They were making decisions based on what they truly felt was beneficial to everyone, including the students.

All that said, I'm with drusso: get involved. Get on committees (local, state, national), write (polite & well-informed) letters, go to the meetings, etc. If you want things to be different in the future you're gonna have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

 

[medhacker]

I only wish this were actually true. In name, perhaps the AOA serves us, but not in practice. Why else would they have voted against the joint match when so many students were for it. Why wouldn't voting for the president and the rest of the council be a democratic process if they were there to serve us instead of their own self-serving agenda?

Answer me those questions, and maybe I'll think about it.

jd

In addition to what has been said, and as unbelieavable as it may sound - there are indeed a remnant of students and DOs who oppose the joint match. Not everyone is 100% go on this issue.

 

[NRAI2001]

In addition to what has been said, and as unbelieavable as it may sound - there are indeed a remnant of students and DOs who oppose the joint match. Not everyone is 100% go on this issue.

I m not so clear on what the joint match is exactly. Would it allow MDs to do DO residencies? If so, i dont see how that would benefit DOs?

 

[medhacker]

I m not so clear on what the joint match is exactly. Would it allow MDs to do DO residencies? If so, i dont see how that would benefit DOs?

hi NRAI2001

Not exactly. Let me share with you some sources which may be able to give you the scoop on it:

Pro joint-match
Click here

Against joint-match
Click here

You will need MS powerpoint to see the above.

And if you are feeling really studious you may see this PDF I am attaching which was prepared by the ACOFP I believe...

 

[Medicfletch]

The AOA is not the only ones trying to increase school numbers without ensuring residency spots apparently. Here is an article from the Miami Hearld about 2 proposed allopathic schools. Whats really interesting is the last paragraph.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14170522.htm

Posted on Thu, Mar. 23, 2006
State board gives FIU approval for medical school
BY NOAHBIERMAN

TALLAHASSEE - Florida International University won state permission Thursday to build a medical school, a hard-fought achievement that caps a remarkable period of growth for the 34-year-old public commuter school.
The vote, after a lengthy debate, was 15-1.

While approval by the state's Board of Governors was the major hurdle, it does not automatically assure the new med school will be built. FIU leaders now must persuade legislators to spend $250 million over the next dozen years and then more than $20 million a year after that to build and maintain the school.

The University of Central Florida also won the board's approval for a medical school, meaning the projected price tag facing lawmakers will double. FIU's and UCF's presidents will begin seeking money next year. Skeptical presidents of other universities have said those expense estimates may be low.

Because of their expense and concerns by some medical associations that new med schools would flood the market with doctors, only one other medical school - at Florida State University - has been approved in the last 25 years. And that approval came through strong-arm politics involving House Speaker John Thrasher, an FSU alumni, during the 2000 legislative session.

FIU, which began lobbying for its school two and a half years ago, hopes to enroll its first class of 36 students in 2008.

FIU President Modesto "Mitch" Maidique said no achievement since the school's founding has been more significant.

''It is compelling community support that is driving our endeavor,'' Maidique told the board before Thursday's vote.

Students, faculty, administrators and donors who made the trip from Miami to Tallahassee for Thursday's long-anticipated vote were planning a celebration with UCF's boosters.

''FIU is such a benefit to the community and I think having a medical school is going to link us that much more to the community,'' said Alex Prado, FIU's student body president and one of several students who spent part of spring break witnessing the vote in a windowless Tallahassee conference room.
Once a two-year finishing school for community college graduates, FIU now boasts a law school, an architectural school and doctoral programs across the spectrum for 37,000 part-time and full-time students. It continues to linger at the bottom tier of the US News & World Report's quality rankings, the most popular guide to colleges.

But medical schools garner research dollars and prestige like no other program. More than 60 percent of the $1 billion in private donations pledged to UM in its current campaign is directed to the university's med school.

FIU and UCF join three other public medical schools in the state: University of Florida, University of South Florida and Florida State University.

South Florida also has the traditional private medical school at UM and one at Nova Southeastern in Davie that trains osteopathic doctors. Lake Erie College has a branch osteopathic medical campus in Bradenton. UM has also begun training some doctors in Boca Raton as part of a joint program with Florida Atlantic University.

FIU plans to affiliate with Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami Beach as its primary teaching hospital. It will also link with Miami Childrens and will likely establish residencies at Mercy and, possibly Baptist. By 2015, the school plans to enroll 480 students, with 120 graduates per year.

To win approval, FIU emphasized economic impact and a doctor shortage predicted by some national organizations.

''We really see the FIU program and the tax dollars it generates being another log on an already burning fire in South Florida,'' said Paul Umbach, a consultant hired by FIU to conduct an economic impact study.

Some members of the board of governors - which oversees the state's 11 public universities - have questioned the economic impact numbers and some economists say such studies are too theoretical to trust.

Money ''does not follow a medical school,'' said Dr. Zachariah Zachariah, a member of the board and a trustee at Nova. ``It follows scientists.''

Zachariah suggested the same money spent on existing public med schools would return greater impact because they have established reputations.

The doctor shortage has also been part of the debate. A study produced for the board in 2004 said the state would keep more doctors by establishing new post-graduate residency programs than new medical schools. Med school advocates argue that it's harder to create new quality residency programs without more medical schools.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

In addition to what has been said, and as unbelieavable as it may sound - there are indeed a remnant of students and DOs who oppose the joint match. Not everyone is 100% go on this issue.

See, the thing is, I'm in favor of completely opening the match - making all residencies either dually accredited or ACGME only. I also support allowing MDs to enter the "AOA" residencies. Maybe if the process is truly open market, the quality will either improve or the weaker programs would close down. Good riddance, I say. Some of the programs out there are pathetic.

 

[heech]

I know the popular belief is that the AOA "hasn't been increasing # of residencies"... but the numbers suggests otherwise. From the recent issue of JAOA:

Total number of AOA-approved residency positions:

2003 4683
2004 4979
2005 5216

The greatest growth in these 3 years comes from:

- anesthiology, from 48 to 70 positions.
- dermatology, from 73 to 95.
- emergency, from 559 to 640.
- medicine, from 593 to 735.
- orthopedic surgery, from 279 to 316.

AOA residencies are actually growing by 300+ per year, which suggests there's plenty of room for additional DO school growth. Opening another school only adds ~150 DO graduates, of whom only 50% go through the AOA match... but you know, I wonder if this isn't "funny" math.

Is there another step in between the AOA "approving" a residency, and a slot actually being offered through the match? Does an institution need to find funding from some other source...?

 

[DragonWell]

i would be suspicious of these numbers. But, let's assume it's in fact, entirely true.
point #1, how long can DO schools continue to maintain the growth of applications to its schools given the fact that more MD schools are now aggressively increasing their spots as well.
#2, there is a trend of inflation in numbers for most MD schools, feel free to peruse the website of AAMC and look at their data. The rate of inflation in numbers (MCAT and GPA) is probably similar for both DO and MD schools, therefore, i would be cautious in assuming that the quality of applicants to DO schools have gone up.
#3, a physical science score of 7.89 according to the above thread is pathetic. if i remember correctly the mean score for all test-takers of MCAT is about 8+ (just a little for 8), then 7.89 is below the mean! Remember, i mean all Test-TAKERS, anyone who bothered to show up for the exam.

I'd be curious to hear about some of the reasons why you are suspicious of the numbers, but that might be more appropriate in a different thread.

I think I understand your points and their logic - to me it boils down to a simple question. To use the old barrel analogy, if there is a limited number of DO applicants, and the number of available seats increases, by neccesity, schools will dig deeper to fill their classes, and sooner or later scrape the proverbial "bottom of the barrel".

The possibility that I am suggesting is that the width of the barrel is in fact expanding, due to greater interest in medical careers from previously under represented populations (ie women, minorities), as well as increased visibility of the osteopathic profession itself, partially as a result of the new DO schools. (And definitely not as a result of Newsweek.) If the barrel of applicants grows, schools can continue skimming the cream off the top.

We can speculate about whether the glass is half full or half empty, but in the end, I think only time can truly show us the dimensions and depth of the "barrel" we're in. Comforting, eh?

 

[drusso]

I only wish this were actually true. In name, perhaps the AOA serves us, but not in practice. Why else would they have voted against the joint match when so many students were for it. Why wouldn't voting for the president and the rest of the council be a democratic process if they were there to serve us instead of their own self-serving agenda?

Answer me those questions, and maybe I'll think about it.

jd

Because the proponents didn't have the votes to make it happen that's why. How many bills get shot down in congress and state legislatures on the first try? Most. Democracy doesn't mean always getting what you want. What is obvious to you is contentious to others. There are multiple points of view and stake holders in any significant decision.

Also, organizations like the AOA, AMA, etc are set up to be deliberative bodies. It's like trying to steer a tanker. You've got to plan ahead. It requires grass roots organization, planning, and strategy to turn things in the right direction. Overcoming the momentum is the hardest part, but if you're not engaged in the process and not sitting at the table you can be certain that *NOTHING* will happen. Physicians have historically been lazy about engaging the political process. You can't sit, fume and whine about the big, bad AOA, but if you want it to change, you have to be a part of making it change. Young DO's (including students) need to be proactively involved and not walk away from the process if they ultimately want to get what they think that they deserve.

 

[docbill]

Because the proponents didn't have the votes to make it happen that's why. How many bills get shot down in congress and state legislatures on the first try? Most. Democracy doesn't mean always getting what you want. What is obvious to you is contentious to others. There are multiple points of view and stake holders in any significant decision.

Also, organizations like the AOA, AMA, etc are set up to be deliberative bodies. It's like trying to steer a tanker. You've got to plan ahead. It requires grass roots organization, planning, and strategy to turn things in the right direction. Overcoming the momentum is the hardest part, but if you're not engaged in the process and not sitting at the table you can be certain that *NOTHING* will happen. Physicians have historically been lazy about engaging the political process. You can't sit, fume and whine about the big, bad AOA, but if you want it to change, you have to be a part of making it change. Young DO's (including students) need to be proactively involved and not walk away from the process if they ultimately want to get what they think that they deserve.

100% agree.. GET ACTIVE IF YOU WANT CHANGE.

but BE READY to COMPROMIZE and negotiate

 

[NRAI2001]

I know the popular belief is that the AOA "hasn't been increasing # of residencies"... but the numbers suggests otherwise. From the recent issue of JAOA:

Total number of AOA-approved residency positions:

2003 4683
2004 4979
2005 5216

The greatest growth in these 3 years comes from:

- anesthiology, from 48 to 70 positions.
- dermatology, from 73 to 95.
- emergency, from 559 to 640.
- medicine, from 593 to 735.
- orthopedic surgery, from 279 to 316.

AOA residencies are actually growing by 300+ per year, which suggests there's plenty of room for additional DO school growth. Opening another school only adds ~150 DO graduates, of whom only 50% go through the AOA match... but you know, I wonder if this isn't "funny" math.

Is there another step in between the AOA "approving" a residency, and a slot actually being offered through the match? Does an institution need to find funding from some other source...?

Thats a lot of ortho and derm programs