Yeshiva Clinical PSYD or St. Elizabeth University Counseling PSYD

[woeifj]

Hi all! Currently deciding between Yeshiva (clinical program, 5 years, has in house clinic, 150K debt post-scholarship, in NY, APA accredited) and St. Elizabeth (counseling program, 4 years, need to match externships through NYNJADOT, whole program is under 80K, in NJ, APA accredited on contingency).

Questions are:

1. Thoughts between clinical and counseling psychologist titles? Would counseling programs have a harder time securing APA internships compared to clinical programs?

2. Reservations on "APA accredited on contingency" status?



TLDR: The 80K tuition for St. Elizabeth is extremely appealing but unsure whether 1. accreditation status and 2. securing an APA internship from a counseling program will be issues.



Thanks in advance everyone!

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[WisNeuro]

Either is still an incredible amount of debt.

1.) For some internship sites, yes, but generally speaking, counseling PhDs do pretty similarly overall to clinical PhDs in match %.

2.) It's probably safe for St. Elizabeth.

 

[woeifj]

Either is still an incredible amount of debt.

1.) For some internship sites, yes, but generally speaking, counseling PhDs do pretty similarly overall to clinical PhDs in match %.

2.) It's probably safe for St. Elizabeth.

Thanks so much! I should have clarified in the original post that both of these would be PsyD programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thanks so much! I should have clarified in the original post that both of these would be PsyD programs.

One of the programs is well known, and the debt load was another giveaway. So, no need to clarify. People may wonder if you also applied to fully funded PhDs/PsyDs though.

 

[R. Matey]

OP, curious if you've thought about Teacher's College if you want to do counseling psych. They, at least, have some partial assistance for tuition and related costs.

 

[summerbabe]

Agreed that both have huge debt loads and encourage you to do tons of research if you are seriously considering this path (e.g., interest accruing during school, multiple repayment pathways with estimated monhtly payment vs future life goal costs, modal incomes for psychologists, accurate estimates of living expenses/bills while in grad school, etc).

1. When I applied to internship 6 years ago, I noticed a very small minority of sites (usually academic medical centers) that explicitly said only students from clinical psychology programs should apply. If you're interested in that type of career, having a counseling degree could potentially create some disadvantages but is still very achievable with the right set of experiences.
.
Regardless, there may be other match related biases. If a site had bad experiences with students from a particular program (e.g., they were unprepared, unprofessional, etc), future applicants may be downgraded even if they are perfectly competent. Some sites may also preference one degree over another based on overall experiences with interns (e.g., PhD over PsyD).

2. Without knowing anything about St. Elizabeth's, if I had to attend an accreditated on contigency program, my top preference would be a public research university that is just now launching a funded doctoral program with a secondary preference for an established non-profit university like St. E.

 

[woeifj]

OP, curious if you've thought about Teacher's College if you want to do counseling psych. They, at least, have some partial assistance for tuition and related costs.

Hi there! Great question. I've applied to APA accredited PsyDs only so that unfortunately doesn't include Teacher's college. Trying to see what makes the most sense between those 2 options since they meet my clinical needs the best. Thanks so much!

 

[R. Matey]

Hi there! Great question. I've applied to APA accredited PsyDs only so that unfortunately doesn't include Teacher's college. Trying to see what makes the most sense between those 2 options since they meet my clinical needs the best. Thanks so much!

Why? Any APA-accredited Ph.D. program can train you to be a clinician.

 

[woeifj]

Agreed that both have huge debt loads and encourage you to do tons of research if you are seriously considering this path (e.g., interest accruing during school, multiple repayment pathways with estimated monhtly payment vs future life goal costs, modal incomes for psychologists, accurate estimates of living expenses/bills while in grad school, etc).

1. When I applied to internship 6 years ago, I noticed a very small minority of sites (usually academic medical centers) that explicitly said only students from clinical psychology programs should apply. If you're interested in that type of career, having a counseling degree could potentially create some disadvantages but is still very achievable with the right set of experiences.
.
Regardless, there may be other match related biases. If a site had bad experiences with students from a particular program (e.g., they were unprepared, unprofessional, etc), future applicants may be downgraded even if they are perfectly competent. Some sites may also preference one degree over another based on overall experiences with interns (e.g., PhD over PsyD).

2. Without knowing anything about St. Elizabeth's, if I had to attend an accreditated on contigency program, my top preference would be a public research university that is just now launching a funded doctoral program with a secondary preference for an established non-profit university like St. E.

Why? Any APA-accredited Ph.D. program can train you to be a clinician.

I applied in previous cycles and hadn't gotten in, probably due to the research component

 

[discolemonade]

Just FYI, even though Yeshiva has an in-house clinic you still have to participate in the externship process as well. Most of the NYC schools have some sort of in house training which is for one year of practicum but then you all end up applying for externships too.

 

[R. Matey]

I applied in previous cycles and hadn't gotten in, probably due to the research component

I would suggest a master's degree in social work over an unfunded Psy.D., especially if your main vocational outcome is clinical work.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

I would suggest a master's degree in social work over an unfunded Psy.D., especially if your main vocational outcome is clinical work.

what if someone doesn't want to be a mid-level provider?

 

[psych.meout]

what if someone doesn't want to be a mid-level provider?

What does it matter if you're doing most or all of the same work? I'd rather do clinical work and improve my business skills to increase my income.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

What does it matter if you're doing most or all of the same work? I'd rather do clinical work and improve my business skills to increase my income.

The level of expertise?

 

[WisNeuro]

The level of expertise?

The level of expertise between a diploma mill PsyD and a midlevel are pretty much the same.

 

[R. Matey]

The level of expertise between a diploma mill PsyD and a midlevel are pretty much the same.

Can confirm. There are two big diploma mills in my locale, many of them end up doing the same jobs as mid-levels. Also, mid-levels can do post-degree training in niche areas to gain specialization for a fraction of the cost of an unfunded Psy.D.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

The level of expertise between a diploma mill PsyD and a midlevel are pretty much the same.

sorry if I'm still a little skeptical in this. so don't take my responses argumentative but I do I do appreciate anyone helping educate me.

I know that the number of mentors per student has a much worse ratio, but there's still an overall knowledge let's say from textbooks from classes that they have to take (half of the LCSW classes in my state are questionably related to actual clinical practice). and I can only assume that the doctorate level boards are significantly more challenging.

for someone who's planning to do military or PLSF et cetera, And they just want to go to school without the extreme competition, it seems like there should be some schools good schools available?

 

[WisNeuro]

sorry if I'm still a little skeptical in this. so don't take my responses argumentative but I do I do appreciate anyone helping educate me.

I know that the number of mentors per student has a much worse ratio, but there's still an overall knowledge let's say from textbooks from classes that they have to take (half of the LCSW classes in my state are questionably related to actual clinical practice). and I can only assume that the doctorate level boards are significantly more challenging.

for someone who's planning to do military or PLSF et cetera, And they just want to go to school without the extreme competition, it seems like there should be some schools good schools available?

after more than a decade working and being exposed to diploma millers and midlevels in the workplace, and reviewing countless thousands of pages of documentation in legal cases, I'm pretty confident in this assertion. And, I would not assume that the EPPP is harder than SW boards given the pass rates and how diploma mills fare in those pass rates.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I also have no idea how the EPPP may stack up to any masters-level licensed exams. I imagine there are folks on this board who've taken both and could provide some insight.

I think perhaps the biggest issue with some of the large-cohort, for-profit training programs is the variability in training quality.

 

[chicandtoughness]

there's still an overall knowledge let's say from textbooks from classes that they have to take

If you want more overall knowledge, buy those textbooks and learn. Get certifications. Go to CEUs and trainings. Seek out supervision.

Diploma mill PsyD classes are literally "talk about your feelings in this online discussion board" and "take this multiple choice test you could probably Google". I was very briefly in a diploma mill PsyD program myself and quit within the first semester, and this is the trend across several programs amongst my friend/colleague group.

 

[Mama Bear]

If you want more overall knowledge, buy those textbooks and learn. Get certifications. Go to CEUs and trainings. Seek out supervision.

Diploma mill PsyD classes are literally "talk about your feelings in this online discussion board" and "take this multiple choice test you could probably Google". I was very briefly in a diploma mill PsyD program myself and quit within the first semester, and this is the trend across several programs amongst my friend/colleague group.

I would really enjoy a discussion in which people share specific diploma mill stories. If anyone is willing to spill some tea, I will gladly listen.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Im currently attending a program that is accredited on contingency, Felician University PsyD. I am incredibly pleased as it is well established within the local psych community and has students in good internships and externships. Even though we are not funded, I concur with being skeptical of programs that cost >100k. I also know of St. Elizebeth and from what I hear they are a solid counseling program. Accreditation on contingency really does not mean much, all programs have been there at one time or another. All Felician has to do is provide the outcome data of students who have graduated. Ultimately, only you can answer the question. I had the same reservations as you do but it seems to be working out well.