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Yet another criminal crap thread...

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AZFutureDoc

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Let me start out by saying this applies to a buddy of mine, and we get into conversations about this every once in a while. I have already applied, and (knock on wood) have no criminal offenses to be reported. However, he has not applied yet, but plans on doing so next year's cycle. He's a non-trad (late 20's, worked out of high school for a while) and he has a few law-related things going against him. He never gives me the whole story cuz I think he just wants to be in ignorant bliss, but I know that in his early 20s, he got a DUI, and in his mid 20's got a domestic violence. He has been charged with these. However, he has been arrested for robbery at some point, providing false information to a police officer, and some other domestic violence thing that got dropped.

My first question is: Do med schools see arrests? I can never find a clear answer, and on old threads, some say they do, some say they don't.

Now recently (you would honestly think he would learn his lesson!) he was arrested for another DUI. He has a lawyer, and pretty good chances he will win in court (the whole lack of probable cause thing). His lawyer says that they can just push back a trial of this until he is in med school, since his lawyer doesn't think arrests can be seen. This is a pretty big problem for him, cuz he had improvement of maturity going for him, being clean the past several years. He has very average numbers (3.5) and has yet to take the MCAT (but he's too lazy to study for it really)

Question 2: Even if he gets a decent MCAT, (let's say low 30's, which is a long shot) are his convictions going to pretty much rule him out of med school acceptance, assuming no arrests show up? He knows the arrest shows up because when he was recently pulled over and a cop asked him about any prior arrests. He left out the robbery, and the cop came back to him from his police car and asked "what about this robbery?"

Question 3: Even IF he gets in, can he get into a residency and legally practice? I know there are some forms of laws describing criminal pasts of physicians.

Thanks for the help. I keep kindly trying to break the news to him that this is probably impossible for him, but he stays unrealistically optimistic. I just wanna see if I am right in saying this.
 

UNMorBUST

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This man is never getting into Med-school. As well as i hope he never becomes a doctor. A mistake is understandable, but if it happens time and time again. Im sorry i have no remorse. He sould NEVER become a physician.
 

zenlike

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You have interesting friends for a guy who was busting Obama on the Ayer's thing.
 

AZFutureDoc

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This man is never getting into Med-school. As well as i hope he never becomes a doctor. A mistake is understandable, but if it happens time and time again. Im sorry i have no remorse. He sould NEVER become a physician.

Sorry, I should have stated, but I totally agree! Obviously, he would make a horrible physician, but he insists on being a surgeon or something that pays well as far as a specialty goes. My question really is, is it really possible?
 

HumidBeing

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This is one of those types of questions that I hope I never need to know the answer to for myself or for any of my friends.

He can pay to have a background check run on himself. If it shows up on that, they will access to the records. Even if they don't, there's also that little part about the necessity to answer questions honestly.
 

zenlike

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DUI/domestic violence <<<<<<<<<<<<< terrorism

I would guess that more people die in the US form DUI/domestic violence than from terrorism.

Furthermore, you are, in effect, saying that you condone drunk driving and domestic violence by associating with said person.
 

UNMorBUST

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Sorry, I should have stated, but I totally agree! Obviously, he would make a horrible physician, but he insists on being a surgeon or something that pays well as far as a specialty goes. My question really is, is it really possible?
From this im guessing he just wants to make good money. From his actions i highly doubt he cares about the wellbeing of another human being.
 
S

suwaifo

I would guess that more people die in the US form DUI/domestic violence than from terrorism.

Furthermore, you are, in effect, saying that you condone drunk driving and domestic violence by associating with said person.
:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:
You can be pro-choice and still be against abortion.
 

AZFutureDoc

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I would guess that more people die in the US form DUI/domestic violence than from terrorism.

Furthermore, you are, in effect, saying that you condone drunk driving and domestic violence by associating with said person.

A) I am not condoning these things at all. I agree that he should not become a physician. I might add that I have recently really started distancing myself from this guy so that I don't get caught up in any of his crap. Your argument here is incorrect because we are talking on the level of individuals. This guy never killed anyone, and the domestic violence was a matter of yelling, not beating. Further, in case you didn't know, AZ DUI laws are the toughest in the country, with 0.000 being the legal limit. No ones lives were endangered by his .002 BAC DUIs. Even further, the DUIs are not malicious. He was not performing an act that attempted to injure/maim/kill anyone. Ayers on the other hand was involed with terrorism which is an act with the sole purpose of causing destruction/injury/death.

B) Obama was running to be leader of the free world, the most powerful man (arguably, of course) on Earth. His ties are much more important than mine. I doubt that all physicians shun friends with any criminal backgrounds.

So you are comparing apples to oranges when you really take a look at what is being said...
 

HumidBeing

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I would guess that more people die in the US form DUI/domestic violence than from terrorism.

Furthermore, you are, in effect, saying that you condone drunk driving and domestic violence by associating with said person.
No. Most of us know people or have casual buddies that have done things we don't condone, whether it's cheating on their girlfriends, driven without their seatbelts, or whatever. Not condoning actions doesn't mean that we have to shun them forever.

Saying that he considers them less bad than terrorism is in no way a declaration that he condones those activities.
 

majestic red

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I think that one of the attendings on here has said that a DUI or domestic violence conviction can be grounds for taking away a practicing physician's license. If that's true, I don't see how any adcom would admit him to medical school with a record like that. Also, I really don't feel like domestic violence can be seen as something "immature" people "grow out of."
 
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AZFutureDoc

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From this im guessing he just wants to make good money. From his actions i highly doubt he cares about the wellbeing of another human being.

As someone who has been around him for a while, I can honestly say that he does not give a rat's @$$ about another human being.


Sorry guys, let me just restate this. Yes, he would be a terrible doctor, and it would be regrettable if he ever became one. I am against the majority of this guys actions. My questions relate to possibilities. I do not think he should become a doctor, for a ton of reasons. I am just curious about chances, and your guys's feed back on him wanting to be a physician.
 

AZFutureDoc

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No. Most of us know people or have casual buddies that have done things we don't condone, whether it's cheating on their girlfriends, driven without their seatbelts, or whatever. Not condoning actions doesn't mean that we have to shun them forever.

Saying that he considers them less bad than terrorism is in no way a declaration that he condones those activities.

Thank you Humid, you understand where I am coming from. We can all get concerned when this guy is such a good friend, he's practically my brother. He's just a guy I met back in my pre med prereq days, and we stay in touch/go out every once in a while. I see him around campus a couple times a week.
 

UNMorBUST

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I just don't thinks its possible. I see him getting tossed on his ***** by a background check.
 

AZFutureDoc

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I just don't thinks its possible. I see him getting tossed on his ***** by a background check.

Ya. He just keeps insisting on A) his opinion that his offenses were all relatively minor (not something I agree with). B) How at some point, some of this stuff will be removed or invisible from his record. And C) his arrests not being seen.

It all depends on the specific level of CBC... I know some exist that will pull up everything there is, while others will not.
 

zenlike

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No. Most of us know people or have casual buddies that have done things we don't condone, whether it's cheating on their girlfriends, driven without their seatbelts, or whatever. Not condoning actions doesn't mean that we have to shun them forever.
Right. I was just trying to point out what I felt was a logical inconsistency.
 

AZFutureDoc

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Right. I was just trying to point out what I felt was a logical inconsistency.

President of the US being buddies with a known terrorist =/= premed student being acquaintance with someone w/ DUIs and domestic violence. Anyone who just dismisses the Obama and Ayers thing without even a second thought scares me. Not making any political statement about who I endorse/d.
 

HumidBeing

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I doubt that either Obama or Ayers will have any say in whether this guy makes it to med school. So, let's keep them out of this conversation. The Socio-Political forum is the place to kick politicians and get kicked back by other members, not the pre-allo forum. ;)

I think the best answer came from GoSpursGo:
Sounds like something that will never really come into play because he'll get an 18 on his MCAT :/
 

PseudomonasPAO1

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Ya. He just keeps insisting on A) his opinion that his offenses were all relatively minor (not something I agree with). B) How at some point, some of this stuff will be removed or invisible from his record. And C) his arrests not being seen.

It all depends on the specific level of CBC... I know some exist that will pull up everything there is, while others will not.

Your friend is essentially wrong on all three. DUIs and DVs may be minor in the criminal justice system, but they are very serious in the real world (job apps). People can excuse one time mistakes, but multiple offenses become problematic.

As for concealing his record, he can have his record sealed/expunged (varies by state). The problem is there are usually exceptions (teachers, police, public office) that allow employers/schools to see the full extent of his records. In addition, the FBI always has full access, and I'm sure most med schools submit a standard name check to be done. It will be an uphill battle.
 
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JeetKuneDo

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He probably won't get in. There's more to med school than numbers.
 

Bacchus

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A) I am not condoning these things at all. I agree that he should not become a physician. I might add that I have recently really started distancing myself from this guy so that I don't get caught up in any of his crap. Your argument here is incorrect because we are talking on the level of individuals. This guy never killed anyone, and the domestic violence was a matter of yelling, not beating. Further, in case you didn't know, AZ DUI laws are the toughest in the country, with 0.000 being the legal limit. No ones lives were endangered by his .002 BAC DUIs. Even further, the DUIs are not malicious. He was not performing an act that attempted to injure/maim/kill anyone. Ayers on the other hand was involed with terrorism which is an act with the sole purpose of causing destruction/injury/death.

B) Obama was running to be leader of the free world, the most powerful man (arguably, of course) on Earth. His ties are much more important than mine. I doubt that all physicians shun friends with any criminal backgrounds.

So you are comparing apples to oranges when you really take a look at what is being said...
No one deserves to be screamed at/harassed regardless of situation. If the offense was of domestic violence then it was serious enough for him to be convicted. Don't try to write it off.
 

pianola

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IMHO, there are very few crimes that warrant the label "This person should never under any circumstances be admitted to any medical school of any type."

But my personal feelings are that domestic violence is one of them.

I have no doubt people will disagree with me, and that's fine. It will have to be an "agree to disagree" situation.
 

goldenwest

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For both your sakes I hope he doesn't find this thread because he may get another spot on his record and you might not live 'til med school.
 

Crazyday

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Sounds like something that will never really come into play because he'll get an 18 on his MCAT :/

Exactly what I was thinking.

If he doesn't even want to study for the MCAT, then he's probably not going to do well on it.

Sounds like he wouldn't make it in medical school very long with that kind of attitude anyhow.
 

Bacchus

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IMHO, there are very few crimes that warrant the label "This person should never under any circumstances be admitted to any medical school of any type."

But my personal feelings are that domestic violence is one of them.

I have no doubt people will disagree with me, and that's fine. It will have to be an "agree to disagree" situation.
This is probably one of the few times you can say, "You won't make a good doctor."
 

MedicalSonata

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Uh...well...

I suppose everyone deserves a chance....but...was it ARMED robbery? Then I'd say no...

And domestic violence...I can't imagine him working with female patients, he apparantly doesn't respect women.
 

messenger634

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Considering how hard it is to get in even if you have a clean record, I would think it would be nearly impossible for any admissions commiittee to approve the acceptance of someone with that history.

At least he's not in jail. If he's a smart guy then I'm sure he can find his way into a satisfying career. Med school isnt everything.
 

AZFutureDoc

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LOL, well hopefully he doesn't kill me... Thanks the the input so far.
 
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