Yikes, this forum is quite discouraging!

[Pewl]

Reading through some of the threads in the rad onc site is making me feel quite inadequate. Every single person has a 230+ board score, publications, tons of research experience, or is an MD/PhD or something.

I got interested in rad onc through grad school and I did a lot of work in the field, but this forum is making it sound like something that's darn near impossible to get unless you're like the most scholarly of scholarly. =P

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[stephew]

and yet notice the median usmle of the successfull radonc applicant is much lower. you do need to be a top student nowadays. but work hard in getting where you want to go as early as is possible and you might find you do very well for yourself.

 

[Pewl]

and yet notice the median usmle of the successfull radonc applicant is much lower. you do need to be a top student nowadays. but work hard in getting where you want to go as early as is possible and you might find you do very well for yourself.

I tend to be one of those students that typically flirts with the honors/pass border. I always do my absolute best but it's often really tough to get into that honors category. Will residencies at least see that i'm close to the top in most of my courses? There also isn't a rad onc residency program at my school. There's a rad onc department here and they DO have a cyber knife (which is pretty cool to a medphysics guy like me) but it kinda sucks that there isn't a residency program here. I know for sure that I will be doing some away rotations for rad onc. But, since I'm in my first year is there anything else I could be doing to help myself out (aside from obviously doing my best in my classes)? I know research is a good thing but there's like absolutely no time right now to really get into any really meaningful projects. I did do some projects and a full year's worth of treatment planning for veterinary radiation oncology in grad school, so I'm hoping I can use some of this when applying.

 

[stephew]

well your treatment planning expereince is a good background. dont sacrifice your schooling with extracurricular activities, however time management is the cornerstone to med school success.

 

[napoleondynamite]

Reading through some of the threads in the rad onc site is making me feel quite inadequate. Every single person has a 230+ board score, publications, tons of research experience, or is an MD/PhD or something.

I got interested in rad onc through grad school and I did a lot of work in the field, but this forum is making it sound like something that's darn near impossible to get unless you're like the most scholarly of scholarly. =P

I'm a 4th year with a mediocre step I score, so take this for what it's worth.

If you aren't AOA with a 560 on step I, I tend to think it's still quite possible to match into radonc (I guess I'll find out in March!)

The secret formula seems to be this: publication in radonc + letter from a big name in radonc + decent academic performance. Grades and board scores will help, but are not enough to get anyone in. Far more important seems to be WHO writes your letters and your research experience.

With no home radonc dept, your strategy of doing aways is a good one. I would consider 1-2 rotations at big name places. Maybe a month of clinical at one institution and a month of research at another. Then maybe another rotation or even two more at places you have a chance of matching.

Best of luck to you & definitely don't give up if this is what you want to do.

 

[stephew]

the whole "big name" in radonc; its certainly nice but remember: everyone goes for the chairman's letter etc. there's only so many ways a "big name" can write a sexy letter. What happens is we see DOZENS of letters from Dr. Big Name each cycle and each letter looks exactly the same. And many are damned by faint praise- easy to do when your letter writer is getting a hand cramp from the 15 others he wrote that week. Try to get a good letter from someone who you worked with well. A big name is nice but an unenthusiastic big name can hurt you too.

 

[ronmexico]

you are a first year. consider going away, not just a fourth year rotation, to do some research during your summer break. would take some checking into on your part, but this is one of the advantages you have by knowing what you want to do early on. i am sure there are any number of people who would be willing to let you give his/her project legs this summer?

 

[Pewl]

you are a first year. consider going away, not just a fourth year rotation, to do some research during your summer break. would take some checking into on your part, but this is one of the advantages you have by knowing what you want to do early on. i am sure there are any number of people who would be willing to let you give his/her project legs this summer?

See that's the thing. Few people are willing to let you work on a project if they know you may not be able to commit for a very long period of time. Unless I can get some sort of incredible project opportunity at Mallinckrodt across town this summer, I plan on returning to LA and enjoying most of my last summer ever! =P

 

[CNphair]

You can definitely get a clinical project started over a summer break. It doesn't have to be at a top rad onc institution. I got 2 papers out of a "little" oncology project...of course, it required follow-up throughout the school year.

If you want to look seriously at Rad Onc, I would recommend reconsidering a summer project. It will definitely take some time to find a good mentor, but it is only October...

 

[Pewl]

You can definitely get a clinical project started over a summer break. It doesn't have to be at a top rad onc institution. I got 2 papers out of a "little" oncology project...of course, it required follow-up throughout the school year.

If you want to look seriously at Rad Onc, I would recommend reconsidering a summer project. It will definitely take some time to find a good mentor, but it is only October...

How did you first go about finding a mentor or someone to do a project with? Keeping in mind that there isn't a rad onc residency at my school. I mean I could always randomly contact people but it's tough to break through.

 

[kp99]

While there may not be a residency program at your school, it's still an academic institution with academic-minded rad onc attendings. I was able to do a combination of clinical research with chart reviewing and shadowing/helping with basic stuff in the clinic during the summer after first year. It's a great way to get some research done and get to know the people in the department better. I would just drop an email to the chair or another attending who may specialize in a specific treatment area you're interested in , or just call and set up an appointment to meet with them. Explain your interest and I'm sure someone is sitting on a small project that they haven't had time to work on themselves.

 

[CNphair]

How did you first go about finding a mentor or someone to do a project with? Keeping in mind that there isn't a rad onc residency at my school. I mean I could always randomly contact people but it's tough to break through.

I did not have any rad onc department to speak of at my school...just a large private practice with little to no research. So, I put my efforts into a heme-onc project. I contacted the research director at my school for any names of attendings who had worked with students in the past. I then emailed and later met with 3 people...and chose the project I felt would most likely let me publish - quickly. I was also able to get a small grant from my school to help ease the pain of working through the summer.

 

[Pewl]

I did not have any rad onc department to speak of at my school...just a large private practice with little to no research. So, I put my efforts into a heme-onc project. I contacted the research director at my school for any names of attendings who had worked with students in the past. I then emailed and later met with 3 people...and chose the project I felt would most likely let me publish - quickly. I was also able to get a small grant from my school to help ease the pain of working through the summer.

nice! How did you figure out which project would allow you to publish more quickly, though?

 

[deleted4401]

I know my posts haven't made it seem possible for the average woman/man, nor do the stats posted by others, but normal people match.

Basic tips:
-be enthusiastic about every part of patient care
-be excited about learning oncology from every aspect (XRT, chemo, surgery)
-be nice, and assertive in a non-pushy way
-do not kiss a** or be overly friendly
-do a presentation about management of a oncologic disease
-impress on all that you meet that you are rad-onc or bust
-start a project, complete a project
-apply widely, rank every program you interview at
-ask everyone you can about advice, take it all with a grain of salt
-get great letters

This board overly projects the overachievers. Many who match are 'normal', whatever that means. You will get it if you try. It is an infuriating process with no real algorithm for success. The factors that some say are important (#s, AOA, publications) are proxies for a successful academic career. The factors that others say matter (interviews) become justifications for ranking people higher than 'merit' may deem. What matters most is stick-tuitiveness. You'll get it if you want it, just keep trying and building on all of the above. I have heard of many people who kept trying and got it. I am one of them.

-Simul

 

[Pewl]

I know my posts haven't made it seem possible for the average woman/man, nor do the stats posted by others, but normal people match.

Basic tips:
-be enthusiastic about every part of patient care
-be excited about learning oncology from every aspect (XRT, chemo, surgery)
-be nice, and assertive in a non-pushy way
-do not kiss a** or be overly friendly
-do a presentation about management of a oncologic disease
-impress on all that you meet that you are rad-onc or bust
-start a project, complete a project
-apply widely, rank every program you interview at
-ask everyone you can about advice, take it all with a grain of salt
-get great letters

This board overly projects the overachievers. Many who match are 'normal', whatever that means. You will get it if you try. It is an infuriating process with no real algorithm for success. The factors that some say are important (#s, AOA, publications) are proxies for a successful academic career. The factors that others say matter (interviews) become justifications for ranking people higher than 'merit' may deem. What matters most is stick-tuitiveness. You'll get it if you want it, just keep trying and building on all of the above. I have heard of many people who kept trying and got it. I am one of them.

-Simul

What does it mean to "rank every program you interview at?"

 

[RLMD]

What does it mean to "rank every program you interview at?"

If you interview at a place, put them on your final rank order list. even if you didnt like the place all that much. the name of the game is to match.... somewhere, anywhere.

 

[Pewl]

If you interview at a place, put them on your final rank order list. even if you didnt like the place all that much. the name of the game is to match.... somewhere, anywhere.

I figured aren't you SUPPOSED to rank every place you interview at? Is there a limit to the number of places you can rank? And are you even suppose to rank a place if you didn't interview there? I mean, isn't it kinda pointless to rank a place if you didn't receive an interview there?

 

[deleted4401]

Um, I think it's simpler than that. It's just that people will interview at places, get choosy about where they want to go, not rank enough and possibly not match.

-Simul

 

[Pewl]

Um, I think it's simpler than that. It's just that people will interview at places, get choosy about where they want to go, not rank enough and possibly not match.

-Simul

Intriguing. I figure you'd rank every place you interviewed at. It's pointless not to isn't it?

 

[Thaiger75]

Intriguing. I figure you'd rank every place you interviewed at. It's pointless not to isn't it?

Actually, alot of people don't rank every place. Some are of the opinion that if you go see a place and you ABSOLUTELY hate it and would be miserable there, then don't rank it. Of course the risk of not matching will be weighed against not ranking every program. It's a preference call.

 

[stephew]

I figured aren't you SUPPOSED to rank every place you interview at? Is there a limit to the number of places you can rank? And are you even suppose to rank a place if you didn't interview there? I mean, isn't it kinda pointless to rank a place if you didn't receive an interview there?

only rank a place that you would be happy to go to if you get it. the caveat being of course you may not rank at all particuarly if you get selective. you cant or rather shouldnt rank a place you didnt interview at. they will not be interested even if eras somehow permits it.

 

[Pewl]

only rank a place that you would be happy to go to if you get it. the caveat being of course you may not rank at all particuarly if you get selective. you cant or rather shouldnt rank a place you didnt interview at. they will not be interested even if eras somehow permits it.

Well, of course. That's like considering you're in contention to a med school even if you didn't get an interview. =P

Just wondering, when you rank residencies do all of places you apply to see those rankings? Or is it only the application service guys that see it?

 

[Gfunk6]

Only you and ERAS know exactly the order you ranked. Nobody else knows. However, if a program ranked you they will know where you ended up (but they still won't know where your ranked it).

 

[XRTMM]

Pewl,
You're way ahead of the game compared to where I was. I didn't decide to go Rad-Onc until almost 4th-year! Try getting meaningful research in in that time. Of course, here I am writing on this forum as a rad-onc resident.

I think the key is to get involved early. As a first-year medical student, you're already on the right track. In my deprtment, I'm already seeing undergrad volunteers showing up who are interested in Rad-onc. As for getting honors, when it comes to clinicals, enthusiasm beats book knowledge every time.

If you are really gung-ho for getting research experience, you could apply for the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. Basically, you spend a whole year (between 2nd and 3rd yr) at the NCI in Bethesda doing research. I started the application process, but ultimately didn't apply because I didn't want to "waste" a year. As it turns out, I ended up having to apply second time to get into Rad-onc and ended up wasting the year anyway.

Also, don't get scared if your experience at Mallinckrodt is less than a "fun" experience. It does carry the reputation as being a "malignant" program.

As for residency application process, apply to as many programs as you can reasonably afford, making sure you aren't applying to places that don't have an open spot for the year you are applying. Make sure you have a good mix of "big-name" places and "small-name" places. Several programs still do the paper application process; definitely spend the time applying to those as they will generally have a smaller applicant pool. Rank every place you get an interview. I learned the hard way what happens when you don't follow the above advice, at least I was still able to get in on the second try...

 

[Pewl]

At this point there is absolutely no way I am going to take a year off to do research. Even if I end up having to reapply, I do not plan on willingly "losing" a year right now. I do plan to find a project over the summer though. I'm banking right now that my master's in medical physics and large amount of exposure to veterinary rad onc will help somewhat as far as interest in the field. Heh heh.

Pewl,
You're way ahead of the game compared to where I was. I didn't decide to go Rad-Onc until almost 4th-year! Try getting meaningful research in in that time. Of course, here I am writing on this forum as a rad-onc resident.

I think the key is to get involved early. As a first-year medical student, you're already on the right track. In my deprtment, I'm already seeing undergrad volunteers showing up who are interested in Rad-onc. As for getting honors, when it comes to clinicals, enthusiasm beats book knowledge every time.

If you are really gung-ho for getting research experience, you could apply for the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. Basically, you spend a whole year (between 2nd and 3rd yr) at the NCI in Bethesda doing research. I started the application process, but ultimately didn't apply because I didn't want to "waste" a year. As it turns out, I ended up having to apply second time to get into Rad-onc and ended up wasting the year anyway.

Also, don't get scared if your experience at Mallinckrodt is less than a "fun" experience. It does carry the reputation as being a "malignant" program.

As for residency application process, apply to as many programs as you can reasonably afford, making sure you aren't applying to places that don't have an open spot for the year you are applying. Make sure you have a good mix of "big-name" places and "small-name" places. Several programs still do the paper application process; definitely spend the time applying to those as they will generally have a smaller applicant pool. Rank every place you get an interview. I learned the hard way what happens when you don't follow the above advice, at least I was still able to get in on the second try...

 

[Thaiger75]

At this point there is absolutely no way I am going to take a year off to do research. Even if I end up having to reapply, I do not plan on willingly "losing" a year right now. I do plan to find a project over the summer though. I'm banking right now that my master's in medical physics and large amount of exposure to veterinary rad onc will help somewhat as far as interest in the field. Heh heh.

If you reapply, what will you do if your year "off" since the match is 2 years ahead of time?

 

[Pewl]

I will definitely find something productive to do. What do most people in that situation do, anyway? I'm certainly not going to proceed right now with an assumption that I will fail the first time around. I will do my best and remain optimistic.

If you reapply, what will you do if your year "off" since the match is 2 years ahead of time?

 

[deleted4401]

That's just not a great mindset to have. I had that mindset, and I had a pretty rough go afterwards. Turns out, scramble isn't the bangin' house party that you'd imagine it would be. It's more of a soul-sucking, desperate 'worst-day-of-your-life' sort of thing. I'd say have a pretty good game plan in place. You don't just 'pick up' a research job that pays and provides you an opportunity for publication on whim. You don't just end up in an internship that allows you to interview all December and January.

Had I not had the attitude 'I'm an optimist, so I won't worry about it...', I'd have saved myself a lot of stress over the course of last year.

Just keep it in the back of your mind, and have an idea of what your next step will be.

-S

 

[Pewl]

That's just not a great mindset to have. I had that mindset, and I had a pretty rough go afterwards. Turns out, scramble isn't the bangin' house party that you'd imagine it would be. It's more of a soul-sucking, desperate 'worst-day-of-your-life' sort of thing. I'd say have a pretty good game plan in place. You don't just 'pick up' a research job that pays and provides you an opportunity for publication on whim. You don't just end up in an internship that allows you to interview all December and January.

Had I not had the attitude 'I'm an optimist, so I won't worry about it...', I'd have saved myself a lot of stress over the course of last year.

Just keep it in the back of your mind, and have an idea of what your next step will be.

-S

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I do have a gameplan. However, my plan just doesn't involve taking a year off to do research. If that one thing prevents me from doing rad onc then I will find another field that I am passionate about. I'm just optimistic that I can get where I want to go without taking a year off from school.