you call this cheating??? seriously?

[Parthenon89]

ok....so i've never been great at chemistry, i just finished my freshman year and managed to get a B in chem2, now i will be taking O-chem in the fall

I
am
PETRIFIED!

HOWEVER!! I signed up to audit (take a course w/o receiving credit) at a o-chem course at my local CC, so when i take o-chem in the fall, i am so so so very ready for it and so i have a huge chance at Aceing it, i told my friend this and he thinks i'm cheating...WTF, what do u guys think?

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[chessknt]

ok....so i've never been great at chemistry, i just finished my freshman year and managed to get a B in chem2, now i will be taking O-chem in the fall

I
am
PETRIFIED!

HOWEVER!! I signed up to audit (take a course w/o receiving credit) at a o-chem course at my local CC, so when i take o-chem in the fall, i am so so so very ready for it and so i have a huge chance at Aceing it, i told my friend this and he thinks i'm cheating...WTF, what do u guys think?

As long as the audit doesnt appear anywhere on any transcript (including the cc), medical school wont know/care and it is very good practice. Your friend is just worried he/she wont do well and that you are being proactive about your own education--good for you.

 

[Instatewaiter]

not cheating.

 

[In Vino Veritas]

I don't think that's *cheating*, per se, I just don't think it's the best use of your time. Everyone (okay, almost everyone, but me included) is/was terrified of orgo, but I think the best way to ace it is not to take it twice, but instead to make sure you create a schedule for the semester where you can put a LOT of time into orgo. Just take it seriously, stay on top of the work, make sure to get help the MOMENT you don't understand something, and make sure the rest of your courseload and extra-currics are light. Think of it as two science courses in one. Even if you weren't so hot at Chem 2 (btw, a B certainly isn't the end of the world!), you can still do really well at Orgo. Good luck!

 

[UofM527]

Absolutely not...you are just taking advantage of an opportunity you found to better prepare yourself for a class...plenty of people buy books early etc to try to help themselves for a class...and you are not even taking the same class...you are just putting in some extra work, so whatever grade you end up getting, you will clearly deserve it for the effort you put in...basically, your friend just needs to chill out

 

[majik1213]

that's not cheating .. cheating is more of a thing where you convince others that you understand the material through dishonest means, such as copying from someone taking the exam next to you. Learning the material in an audit class before taking the course gives you the same leg up that taking an AP class in high school provides for the corresponding college course, provided you don't take the AP exam or that you don't do well.

 

[whoknows2012]

CHEATING???

First off your friend must be either jealous or extremely competitive because getting a leg up by taking O-chem during the summer at a CC is amazingly ambitious of you. I tried to do the same thing except it was only offered at 9am and for a month waking up at 8am just wasn't worth it to me. In hindsight I would have done it in a second.

So would your friend call buying a textbook for a class and reading some of it before the class starts cheating??? Its ridiculous that someone could have such a skewed view of reality to call this cheating...

 

[flip26]

You do realize that you have to submit transcripts from all colleges, etc., to AMCAS, don't you?

So if you follow through with this lame scheme, and then fail to submit the CC transcript, you are then cheating for sure.

 

[Parthenon89]

You do realize that you have to submit transcripts from all colleges, etc., to AMCAS, don't you?

So if you follow through with this lame scheme, and then fail to submit the CC transcript, you are then cheating for sure.

i am not getting credit for it....it doesnt show up


and i am taking 3 lab courses in the fall which is another reason i am taking this...being better prepareed at organic can let me foucs more on bio3 and physics, i also have other things going on this summer (ems, work, shadowing doctor) so its not like i'm wasting my summer over one course.

 

[HumidBeing]

My personal, right off the bat, no thinking beforehand reaction is that it's not cheating when you're taking something to learn. I wouldn't want it to be cheating. I'd want it to be learning.

The schools around me don't allow a student to take a class for credit that he has previously audited unless it's a special accommodation for disability purposes. It gives them an "unfair" advantage in grades. (If it's at the same school, there's a good chance the student would already have been exposed to the tests and exams and their answers. So, that makes sense.) That indicates that a school may consider it cheating. Seems to me that the priority is grade integrity.

 

[flip26]

i am not getting credit for it....it doesnt show up

Are you an enrolled student at the CC? Or are you just sitting in on the class, surreptitiously?

The fact that it is an audit is irrelevant - the CC will have a transcript for you indicating this, and per AMCAS rules, you must submit all transcripts of college, and CC, even those taken during high school.

Read the AMCAS PDF, or better yet, call them and ask about this situation and then report back to us what they said.

 

[Parthenon89]

My personal, right off the bat, no thinking beforehand reaction is that it's not cheating when you're taking something to learn. I wouldn't want it to be cheating. I'd want it to be learning.

The schools around me don't allow a student to take a class for credit that he has previously audited unless it's a special accommodation for disability purposes. It gives them an "unfair" advantage in grades. (If it's at the same school, there's a good chance the student would already have been exposed to the tests and exams and their answers. So, that makes sense.) That indicates that a school may consider it cheating. Seems to me that the priority is grade integrity.

noo i'm auditing at a CC and taking the course again for credit at my 4 year university which means completely different tests, different labs, etc.

 

[flip26]

My personal, right off the bat, no thinking beforehand reaction is that it's not cheating when you're taking something to learn. I wouldn't want it to be cheating. I'd want it to be learning.

The schools around me don't allow a student to take a class for credit that he has previously audited unless it's a special accommodation for disability purposes. It gives them an "unfair" advantage in grades. (If it's at the same school, there's a good chance the student would already have been exposed to the tests and exams and their answers. So, that makes sense.) That indicates that a school may consider it cheating. Seems to me that the priority is grade integrity.

This makes sense to me, so OP, why don't you run your scheme by your college registrar, too, while you are talking to AMCAS?

 

[mk8]

you could just get an MCAT book and work through the Physical Sciences section... if i had a summer to burn i'd probably spend it this way. and you don't run into the trouble of reporting that you took Orgo twice to medschools.

frankly, i think you are being neurotic; suck it up and take orgo in the fall, do something interesting this summer.

edit: Humid is right, orgo is in BS not PS... it's been 2.5 years

 

[HumidBeing]

noo i'm auditing at a CC and taking the course again for credit at my 4 year university which means completely different tests, different labs, etc.

I knew that. I was just mentioning one of the reasons that schools might not allow taking a class for credit after auditing. That's why it was in parenthesis.

 

[Parthenon89]

This makes sense to me, so OP, why don't you run your scheme by your college registrar, too, while you are talking to AMCAS?

my "scheme"....wow flipper

...thats the most tasteful thing i've read in a while, thank you for that.

way to be an complete a$$

 

[HumidBeing]

you could just get an MCAT book and work through the Physical Sciences section... if i had a summer to burn i'd probably spend it this way. and you don't run into the trouble of reporting that you took Orgo twice to medschools.

frankly, i think you are being neurotic; suck it up and take orgo in the fall, do something interesting this summer.

Better to work through the Bio science section - that's where ochem is tested.

 

[flip26]

my "scheme"....wow flipper

...thats the most tasteful thing i've read in a while, thank you for that.

way to be an complete a$$

You are welcome

Always glad to be of help to people on SDN who have lost their way.

 

[Law2Doc]

My personal, right off the bat, no thinking beforehand reaction is that it's not cheating when you're taking something to learn. I wouldn't want it to be cheating. I'd want it to be learning.

The schools around me don't allow a student to take a class for credit that he has previously audited unless it's a special accommodation for disability purposes. It gives them an "unfair" advantage in grades. (If it's at the same school, there's a good chance the student would already have been exposed to the tests and exams and their answers. So, that makes sense.) That indicates that a school may consider it cheating. Seems to me that the priority is grade integrity.

Agree with your personal view and disagree with the school policies you describe. If you audit it for no credit, how is it cheating. You aren't getting answers to use on tests, you are getting knowledge. That is the point of taking a course. If you take it twice, but only once for credit, what is the negative -- you shouldn't be penalized for actually doing the extra effort you need to learn the subject. Grade integrity is actually HELPED if students who do well actually have learned the subject (however they manage it). Cheating is when they don't know the subject, yet do well by taking an unethical shortcut. Auditing isn't a shortcut, it is a long cut. It is pre-learning, which, though not always the best use of your time, certainly isn't against the rules. Or shouldn't be. By that same logic, studying should also be cheating then.

 

[Isoprop]

when in doubt about academic integrity, it's always best to ask someone like a prof or registrar first. don't assume it's not cheating because something like humidbeing said makes sense.

a better idea to prepare yourself for ochem is to grab klein's organic chemistry as a second language and read a few of the chapters, especially the one on acid-bases and resonance. perusing that book will probably be more high-yield.

and ochem is seriously not that bad.

 

[flip26]

Agree with your personal view and disagree with the school policies you describe. If you audit it for no credit, how is it cheating. You aren't getting answers to use on tests, you are getting knowledge. That is the point of taking a course. If you take it twice, but only once for credit, what is the negative -- you shouldn't be penalized for actually doing the extra effort you need to learn the subject. Grade integrity is actually HELPED if students who do well actually have learned the subject (however they manage it). Cheating is when they don't know the subject, yet do well by taking an unethical shortcut. Auditing isn't a shortcut, it is a long cut. It is pre-learning, which, though not always the best use of your time, certainly isn't against the rules. Or shouldn't be. By that same logic, studying should also be cheating then.

What about the issue of not submitting transcripts from the CC to AMCAS? To me that is where the real "cheating" comes into play.

If there is nothing wrong with this "scheme" then both his college and AMCAS should be happy to sign off on it, right?

 

[Isoprop]

Agree with your personal view and disagree with the school policies you describe. If you audit it for no credit, how is it cheating. You aren't getting answers to use on tests, you are getting knowledge. That is the point of taking a course. If you take it twice, but only once for credit, what is the negative -- you shouldn't be penalized for actually doing the extra effort you need to learn the subject. Grade integrity is actually HELPED if students who do well actually have learned the subject (however they manage it). Cheating is when they don't know the subject, yet do well by taking an unethical shortcut. Auditing isn't a shortcut, it is a long cut. It is pre-learning, which, though not always the best use of your time, certainly isn't against the rules. Or shouldn't be. By that same logic, studying should also be cheating then.

i've been accused of academic dishonest for using an older edition of a lab manual. OP should definitely read the fine print on the student code of conduct on academic dishonest. even still, if there is a shred of doubt, he should confirm with a professor or registrar. i agree with you: i don't think it's cheating. but it's better find out beforehand than trying to explain yourself afterwards to the students ethics committee.

 

[beachblonde]

I would clear it with your registrar and AMCAS first, but otherwise, go for it. I don't see it as dramatically different than reading an orgo book on your own time or otherwise prepping for the class. Cheating implies an unfair advantage; this is a bit extreme but hardly cheating. It can't really be compared to stealing copies of the test early, using notecards during exams, or looking off your neighbor's test.

Frankly, I don't think the key to acing orgo is exposure to the material multiple times but actually learning HOW to learn the material the right way, the first time. But that's just me. I would rather spend my summer on the beach...or in a lab, volunteering, or something.

 

[TigerSoup]

I wouldn't call it cheating, though I thought that even audited courses would show up on a transcript. I do agree with those who are saying that it's not the best use of your time or money. You might as well review from the same text that your own college will use. If you're saying to yourself "Oh no, I'll never be motivated enough for that...", guess what? You probably won't be motivated enough to really work in your summer class either, given that you're not getting any credit for it and it's just a run through before the real thing.

 

[Parthenon89]

the prereq for the o-chem at the CC was chem2, i had to show either a transcript or permission slip from my chemistry professor showing that i took chem2, i emailed him telling him that i'm auditing and why i'm doing it, he happily faxed me the permission slip without objection.

 

[GoldShadow]

Is this cheating? I don't believe it is, unless the AMCAS/transcript issues being discussed above deem it cheating.

Is it stupid? Yes. There is no need to waste your time auditing a required class you're just going to take later for real. If you're a good student, you'll be able to do what everybody else does: take it once and pass. Orgo might be hard, but I would never recommend somebody do this to prepare for it. The best preparation for orgo is to be ready to work hard, that's all. There are better ways to spend your time.

 

[nu2004]

HOWEVER!! I signed up to audit (take a course w/o receiving credit) at a o-chem course at my local CC, so when i take o-chem in the fall, i am so so so very ready for it and so i have a huge chance at Aceing it, i told my friend this and he thinks i'm cheating...WTF, what do u guys think?

not cheating. this is a good idea. o-chem is very hard for some.

 

[Isoprop]

What about the issue of not submitting transcripts from the CC to AMCAS? To me that is where the real "cheating" comes into play.

If there is nothing wrong with this "scheme" then both his college and AMCAS should be happy to sign off on it, right?

if OP officially audits the class, then it will probably show on a transcript and he's ethically obligated to send a transcript from the CC even if there isn't a grade (just the audited class). amcas explicitly requires applicants to forward transcripts from all colleges and universities attended.

 

[HumidBeing]

when in doubt about academic integrity, it's always best to ask someone like a prof or registrar first. don't assume it's not cheating because something like humidbeing said makes sense.

That was my crudely made point. I don't think that SHOULD be considered cheating, but the school might.

It's not cheating to take MCAT prep courses, but someone who thought everyone was expected to walk in and take them cold, might wish it were.

 

[Hurricane95]

Of course it's not cheating...how would that be any different from, say, you buying the textbook ahead of time and reading/doing problems before the course starting? I mean, you're not even auditing the course with the SAME professor even (assuming he used th same exact tests every semester). Do it if you think it would help and tell your friend to mind his/her own business.

 

[umean2tellme]

I wish I had thought of that it would've saved me a poor Ochem grade. If you have time for it then I see no problem with it.

 

[Isoprop]

Of course it's not cheating...how would that be any different from, say, you buying the textbook ahead of time and reading/doing problems before the course starting? I mean, you're not even auditing the course with the SAME professor even (assuming he used th same exact tests every semester). Do it if you think it would help and tell your friend to mind his/her own business.

this is dangerous advice. i agree that my gut says that this is not cheating. but what humidbeing said earlier MAKES SENSE. the wisest choice is to ask the professor or registrar if this is okay. i mean, there's no harm in asking.

i sincerely urge anybody who has a shred of doubt or concern about academic integrity issues is to FIRST ASK SOMEONE WITH AUTHORITY in your college.

a personal antedote: i was accused of cheating because i used an older edition of a lab manual (from a previous quarter i got from my roommate). i had no idea it was considered "cheating" and would still argue that there's nothing morally wrong. but the student code of conduct spelled out that older editions can't be used without permission from the instructor. moral of the story: some non-obvious things can be considered academic "dishonesty."

 

[taponthecloud]

re: your "friend"...Beware the Zealots!

 

[Parthenon89]

..i dunno if any one read earlier what i sed but i asked my chem2 prof for a permission slip saying i fully completed chem2 for teh audit course, i told him why i was doing it, he did not object

 

[Isoprop]

does your chemistry prof know that you plan to audit at cc and then take it again at your university for credit?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

OK - here's from the old guy. No, it's not cheating. You could probably save yourself some time by buying an Orgo text early and taking a look at it. Orgo is not easy, but it tends to be one of those things - either you get it or you don't. The people who don't "get it" - struggle. The people who do "get it" - well, it takes a lot of work but it's not as painful as it is for the people who don't get it. It may have something to do with how well you can do three dimensional spatial perceptions in your mind - if you can't, buy the silly-looking Tinkertoy model kit - it can help.

In your auditing course, if you "get it" right off the bat, you'll probably start wishing you were taking the course for credit. If you don't "get it", you may build your anxiety to unneccessary levels before you take it for credit.

Most people find a way through Orgo one way or another without taking such extreme measures.

 

[TheRealMD]

Usually when you audit, aren't you not allowed to take tests anyway?

 

[Law2Doc]

if OP officially audits the class, then it will probably show on a transcript and he's ethically obligated to send a transcript from the CC even if there isn't a grade (just the audited class). amcas explicitly requires applicants to forward transcripts from all colleges and universities attended.

So send the transcript. Med schools are only going to care about the ultimate grade. It will only look bad if you audited and then took the class and still did poorly.

 

[HumidBeing]

the prereq for the o-chem at the CC was chem2, i had to show either a transcript or permission slip from my chemistry professor showing that i took chem2, i emailed him telling him that i'm auditing and why i'm doing it, he happily faxed me the permission slip without objection.

If I were part of an honor court, and someone like your friend filed a complaint that landed you in front of it, I'd come down on your side.

If you decide to audit that class, do ACE the one at your uni. It would look really lame to have a transcript from the CC show that you audited and then wound up with C- in the real thing. (BTW, despite what everyone said ahead of time, ochem wound up being one of my favorite courses - not bad at all, as long as you keep up with it, and easier for me than chem.)
G'luck!

 

[disorder]

Regardless, if you are OFFICIALLY auditing the class, then it will appear on the community college's official transcript.

Thus, you must submit this transcript to AMCAS.

And, I am not sure how AMCAS will view this. I am getting pissed about this whole submitting ANY AND EVERY single class you ever took at any college. I took two community college courses in high school, got B's in both and it brings down my AMCAS cumulative GPA even though both grades are not on my official transcript from the University I attended. Moral of the story, be honest.

 

[Parthenon89]

If I were part of an honor court, and someone like your friend filed a complaint that landed you in front of it, I'd come down on your side.

If you decide to audit that class, do ACE the one at your uni. It would look really lame to have a transcript from the CC show that you audited and then wound up with C- in the real thing. (BTW, despite what everyone said ahead of time, ochem wound up being one of my favorite courses - not bad at all, as long as you keep up with it, and easier for me than chem.)
G'luck!

hahah if Shhit ever hits the fan, i'm calling you

 

[scarletgirl777]

ok....so i've never been great at chemistry, i just finished my freshman year and managed to get a B in chem2, now i will be taking O-chem in the fall

I
am
PETRIFIED!

HOWEVER!! I signed up to audit (take a course w/o receiving credit) at a o-chem course at my local CC, so when i take o-chem in the fall, i am so so so very ready for it and so i have a huge chance at Aceing it, i told my friend this and he thinks i'm cheating...WTF, what do u guys think?

A lot of people I know did this, and I don't think they realized then that they had to send in every transcript from everywhere.

REGARDLESS of whether or not you get credit, if it's an official audit (hint: are you PAYING for this opportunity?) then you will have a transcript. And you will have to submit this transcript when you go to medical school. Is this cheating? Absolutely not. But there will be a transcript out there that you will have to submit. Now, some people take o-chem in high school, so I don't think adcoms are going to think that this is automatically going to make your college grade meaningless. But if you pay for this audit, you will get a transcript that med schools will know about.

Edit: Oh, and I can understand why it makes people upset. This class was ridiculously hard and ridiculously curved so if there's a large group of people who are taking the course for the second time it can be annoying. But there's nothing immoral about it; if you have the money (actually, most people I know audited it at state universities) and are ok with having that extra transcript, then go for it.

 

[MichaelG17]

And, I am not sure how AMCAS will view this. I am getting pissed about this whole submitting ANY AND EVERY single class you ever took at any college. I took two community college courses in high school, got B's in both and it brings down my AMCAS cumulative GPA even though both grades are not on my official transcript from the University I attended. Moral of the story, be honest.

So to review your point: we have to submit the transcript of any community college classes we took to AMCAS?? Like you I took a CC in high school, I don't even remember what I got in it. It was macroeconomics.

 

[disorder]

So to review your point: we have to submit the transcript of any community college classes we took to AMCAS?? Like you I took a CC in high school, I don't even remember what I got in it. It was macroeconomics.

That is absolutely correct.

This is straight from the AMCAS Instruction Manual.

When entering course work, you must include information and
corresponding grades for every course you have ever enrolled in at
any U.S., U.S. Territorial or Canadian post-secondary institution,
regardless of whether credit was earned, and including any courses
removed from your transcripts or GPA as a result of academic
bankruptcy, forgiveness, or similar institutional policies.


This includes, but is not limited to:
• Courses from which you withdrew.
• Courses for which you received a grade of "Incomplete" and for
which no final grade has been assigned.
• Courses that have been repeated.
• Courses that you failed, regardless of whether they have been
repeated.
• Courses in which you are currently enrolled or expect to enroll in
prior to entering medical school.
• Remedial/developmental courses.
• College-level courses you took while in high school even if they
were not counted toward a degree by any college.
• Courses taken at an American college overseas.
• Courses removed from your transcripts or GPA as a result of
academic bankruptcy,orgiveness, or similar institutional
policies.

 

[Law2Doc]

So to review your point: we have to submit the transcript of any community college classes we took to AMCAS?? Like you I took a CC in high school, I don't even remember what I got in it. It was macroeconomics.

Absolutely. Which is why if you think you might be premed, you probably aren't doing yourself a service taking college classes while in high school. Looks good for getting into college, but kills your GPA sometimes when continuing on to the next level.

 

[Law2Doc]

Regardless, if you are OFFICIALLY auditing the class, then it will appear on the community college's official transcript.

Thus, you must submit this transcript to AMCAS.

And, I am not sure how AMCAS will view this. I am getting pissed about this whole submitting ANY AND EVERY single class you ever took at any college. I took two community college courses in high school, got B's in both and it brings down my AMCAS cumulative GPA even though both grades are not on my official transcript from the University I attended. Moral of the story, be honest.

AMCAS doesn't view this. They just want you to report. The question is how med schools will view this. And the answer is, they won't care, so long as you ultimately end up with an A.

 

[david594]

So to review your point: we have to submit the transcript of any community college classes we took to AMCAS?? Like you I took a CC in high school, I don't even remember what I got in it. It was macroeconomics.

Are you willing to risk not sending it?

I got turned down from a job after undergrad because I failed to list a job scooping ice cream for a month some 5 years earlier on the background check.

Does auditing courses really work for people? Without being required to turn in homeworks or prepare for exams, how well are you really going work at learning o-chem?

 

[ADeadLois]

It's not cheating; it's just an incredible waste of time.

 

[premedrod]

ok....so i've never been great at chemistry, i just finished my freshman year and managed to get a B in chem2, now i will be taking O-chem in the fall

I
am
PETRIFIED!

HOWEVER!! I signed up to audit (take a course w/o receiving credit) at a o-chem course at my local CC, so when i take o-chem in the fall, i am so so so very ready for it and so i have a huge chance at Aceing it, i told my friend this and he thinks i'm cheating...WTF, what do u guys think?

no its not cheating. it just shows you're a scuuurrrrdy cat that cant handle the course work....BURNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

 

[45408]

It's not cheating; it's just an incredible waste of time.

yup