Your experience in IHC of Papillary Ca of the thyroid

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Patho2009

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
178
Reaction score
0
We all know that diagnosis of Papillary thyorid carcinoma PTC mainly depends on the nuclear features (whether on histology or cytology). Sometimes you find yourself spending extensive time evaluating the nuclear features. However, I noticed that IHC in the diagnostic work up of PTC is seldom used, in spite of published studies about novel markers of PTC (cytokeratin 19, galactein-3 and HBME-1). During my training years, I never saw any of my attendings try to use these markers. They all depend on the nuclear features only, even on cytology and cell blocks where the material is minimal and the use of IHC can be reasonable..

I am curious to know your experiences in the use of IHC in PTC and how it influenced your diagnosis.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Current immunostains are useless in the cases you need them the most and worse still can lead you to a wrong conclusion.

Due to the absence of any objective markers I view most diagnoses of "PTC-FV" ,even from individuals who have devoted their careers to thyroid pathology, with skepticism.

The incidence of papillary carcinoma has increased in the last couple of decades ,in large part, due to the diagnosis of "PTC-FV". It will be worth your time to analyze the causes of this phenomenon.
 
That's why this was a good article to read:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20463572

Abstract
A cohort of 1039 consecutive cases of thyroid carcinoma treated at a single institution and followed for an average of 11.9 years or until death included 102 encapsulated well-differentiated follicular-patterned tumors that had been diagnosed as carcinoma because of complete capsular invasion and/or papillary carcinoma-type nuclei. None of these cases were among the 67 patients from the cohort who died as a result of their thyroid carcinoma. The results of this study and a critical review of the pertinent literature indicate that tumors with these features are associated with an extremely favorable outcome and that they do not play a significant role in the fatality rate of thyroid carcinoma.


i.e. maybe they're not really cancer!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
We've sent several thyroids to LiVolsi in the past year. She's requested the block for 2 & ordered HMBE, a stain I've never used (because our vendors don't offer it). I'm guessing there's some utility to it.
 
That's why this was a good article to read:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20463572

Abstract
A cohort of 1039 consecutive cases of thyroid carcinoma treated at a single institution and followed for an average of 11.9 years or until death included 102 encapsulated well-differentiated follicular-patterned tumors that had been diagnosed as carcinoma because of complete capsular invasion and/or papillary carcinoma-type nuclei. None of these cases were among the 67 patients from the cohort who died as a result of their thyroid carcinoma. The results of this study and a critical review of the pertinent literature indicate that tumors with these features are associated with an extremely favorable outcome and that they do not play a significant role in the fatality rate of thyroid carcinoma.


i.e. maybe they're not really cancer!

Great article. I have always that the dogma that papillary carcinoma on FNA implies total thyroidectomy is indicated was crap. This is further proof. And I wouldn't get a completion thryroid or advise a friend to get one if they just had one of these crap little 1cm PTC,FV.

It is the same with that Multilocular Clear Cell Renal Cell Carcinoma. Per the WHO book it has never metastasized. Is it really a carcinoma then or should we recognize it as an in-situ lesion, like TA or DCIS?
 
Multilocular clear cell has the same genetic mutations as other clear cell RCC http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20348877 so yes, it is cancer.

But the thing is, they have defined that entity so carefully that anything that does metastasize I have no doubt some expert would reclassify it as a clear cell RCC. And certainly any case that has problematic features like fat invasion, vein invasion, mets, etc, but still looks like a multilocular cystic RCC would not be called such.
 
Interesting info....good thread.
 
Multilocular clear cell has the same genetic mutations as other clear cell RCC http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20348877 so yes, it is cancer.

But the thing is, they have defined that entity so carefully that anything that does metastasize I have no doubt some expert would reclassify it as a clear cell RCC. And certainly any case that has problematic features like fat invasion, vein invasion, mets, etc, but still looks like a multilocular cystic RCC would not be called such.

But if it has never metastasized how is it a carcinoma. FEA has the same genetic abnormalties as tubular carcinoma, but we don't call it a carcinoma.

I contend that it is a BS classification. We have a carcinoma with no reports of it ever metastasizing but we have reports of oncoytomas and leiomyomas metastasizing.

Sounds like a crock of S to me.

Nevertheless I think people that go straight to total thyroid based on an FNA are stupid. The few times I have seen those stains they just confounded the issue even more. PTC is an H&E diagnosis.
 
PTC is a cytologic diagnosis. If you are a good cytopathologist you are virtually always right if you call it PTC outright. There are some "suspicious" cases which usually don't proceed to total thyroidectomy off of the FNA, unless there are other reasons to do so.

I don't know why certain things are called carcinoma and certain things aren't. Oncocytoma has been reported to metastasize, but most of those reports were probably misclassified cases. Low grade papillary urothelial CA is not really a cancer either. And some benign tumors can kill patients by continuously growing or recurring. But terminology is what it is. The reason multilocular cystic rcc is called a cancer is that it has features of cancer and has similar molecular changes, thus it has the potential to behave in a malignant fashion. The fact that it doesn't may simply be a reflection of the strict definition than the tumor itself.
 
Medicine has never really been renowned for its consistent, precise, logical, and widely understandable naming practices. We can't take much credit for that in a lot of fields, but we certainly can for neoplasias.
 
PTC is a cytologic diagnosis. If you are a good cytopathologist you are virtually always right if you call it PTC outright. There are some "suspicious" cases which usually don't proceed to total thyroidectomy off of the FNA, unless there are other reasons to do so.
Indeed. Obvious cases are obvious (papillary architecture, nuclear inclusions, nuclear crowding with grooves, etc.). As for the challenging cases, there have been a few studies that even extend these impox PTC studies to cytology cases; although due to low case numbers, the question still remains as to the universal applicability of these immunomarkers.

Thyroids can be frustrating in that histology is deemed the gold standard. The malignancy risk stratification scheme, especially laid out in the Bethesda System book, is based on numerous studies from a variety of institutions. Unfortunately, the gold standard is not perfect as there is disagreement even amongst surgical pathologists especially when it comes down to what can be called a follicular variant of PTC versus an adenomatoid nodule, for example. Some pathologists are very conservative in calling follicular-patterned nodules FV-PTCs whereas others seem to call every dominant nodule a FV-PTC. As FV-PTCs usually don't kill people anyway, I imply from this that calling something an FV-PTC or a benign nodule are low-risk diagnoses anyway. Cynically speaking, in this culture of medical malpractice and pathologists covering your own arse, there are isolated cases where a FV-PTC metastasis is discovered years after the surgery only to discover that the initial thyroidectomy specimen had been diagnosed previously as benign. Maybe this is why some overcall FV-PTCs?

Again, if there is so much variation in how follicular-patterned lesions are called FV-PTC, is this really a good gold standard? There is increased appreciation of using molecular studies to stratify thyroid nodules. If detecting RET-PTC rearrangements, B-Raf mutations, etc are considered to be synonymous with malignancy, so be it...maybe molecular studies should be the gold standard and should be done for every thyroid nodule. Problem is, these studies would not be expected to pick up mutations and rearrangements in every cancer case (of course, that depends on the definition of "cancer" by whatever "gold standard"). So it begs the question of what is the negative predictive value.

Hence, if the gold standard is frought with interobserver variability and imprecision, how does this affect thyroid cytology? Already, there is quite a range in malignancy risk percentages associated with a given category of cytologic thyroid FNA interpretations (e.g., atypical, follicular neoplasm, and Hurthle cell neoplasm). Anything short of "suspicious for PTC" or "PTC" diagnoses...the risk stratification lines are blurry. I suspect that this could represent increased "noise" in the system due to the variability in the gold standard.

Simply put, I wonder if the blind are leading the blind.
 
Last edited:
Personally, I think most people overcall FV-PTCs because they know that there is a chance someone will request it to be sent out to one of several "international experts" who will call everything FV PTC. And you can't disagree with the "international expert" without looking like an ignorant stooge or a confrontationalist.

Despite the fact that it would reduce my paycheck somewhat, I would hope that someday we will have a nice molecular test (chip?) for triaging thyroid aspirates. We can say it should be limited to difficult FNAs, that would only take out 10% of total FNAs or so. Classic PTC doesn't need it. Goiters don't need it.

It would also be helpful if all the experts could get together and agree to stop being so inconsistent. Despite the fact that it would be annoying for patients and surgeons, the best course may be to just call them all "atypical follicular lesions" (i.e. not cancer) and establish a follow-up schedule. But no one likes an "atypical" diagnosis, because it means you're a wuss who can't commit.

I would say that pathology needs fewer alpha male types who have to call everything either CANCER or NOT CANCER, but since a lot of the problem in thyroid path includes female experts, that probably isn't the issue!
 
I've seen papillary IHC done twice. Once when I was on the receiving end of a consult as a fellow (the head and neck attending refused to even look at the outside IHC stains- he didn't care). The next time was as an attending- we had a smallish papillary lesion- looked pretty good, but not 'perfect' for it so we were like 'what the hll lets do the stains'- they worked picture perfect. Not sure what we would have done if they didn't work...

There are a lot of 'what do you do with this stain' in pathology. Smoothelin is a new marker used to help differentiate MP from LP in bladder biopsies. It actually can work pretty good, but if you aren't convinced histologically there is MP, is a single smoothelin stain gonna push you over the edge and make a call of MP invasion that can get the bladder removed?

It also depends on how you define your definitions. In papillary CA, it is still really a cytologic style diagnosis. Contrast that with some heme diagnosis (MDS with blah blah translocation) which are defined entirely by molecular results.

Expert pathologists in the field can just say it's so, and it is. The problem is us mere mortals have to follow the 'experts' and what they say goes. I personally think that IHC is somewhat useful in thryoid pathology- but only in certain select cases.

Oh and sooooommme places do have an 'uncertain malignant potential' category for thryoids- follicular neoplasm of uncertain malignant potential...which doesnt fly with most ENTs since they are surgeons and that category isnt on their little thryoid algorithm...
 
It sounds that no one is very impressed with the published studies about the IHC of PTC, like this one:
http://www.nature.com/modpathol/journal/v18/n1/full/3800235a.html

In spite of the critical nature of such a diagnosis, any ancillary study that helps clench the diagnosis would be expected to be very widespread in use.. but it is not the case in IHC of PTC, which still heavily relies on the morphological features (mainly nuclear) both cytologically and histologically...and many pathologists are reluctatnt to use IHC even in the equivocal cases!!. Very strange.
 
Last edited:
Well, our lab has a lot of immunostains but we don't have any of those. They aren't really useful for anything else.
 
Juan Rosai gave a really great talk at USCAP 2009 about the history and evolution of the classification of papillary lesions of the thyroid. He started with the idea in the 50's that papillary lesions were adenomas, then we decided they were carcinomas, then people started noticing the nuclear features of PTC, then people realized that some follicular pattern lesions had PTC nuclear features and thus the FV-PTC was born. Now FV-PTC seems to be overdiagnosed by some pathologists. The way Rosai walked everyone through the history of thyroid pathology was really cool.
 
Personally, I think most people overcall FV-PTCs because they know that there is a chance someone will request it to be sent out to one of several "international experts" who will call everything FV PTC. And you can't disagree with the "international expert" without looking like an ignorant stooge or a confrontationalist.
Yeah, this happens within institutions too. My friend trained at a place where people signed out benign nodules with hesitation because every thyroid case was discussed at a tumor board conference. All slides were therefore seen by the head thyroid surgical pathologist; he ran the pathology side of the conference. Quite a few benign nodules were overturned and reclassified as FV-PTCs, presumably based on seeing few nuclear grooves or a questionable nuclear pseudoinclusions. The joke was "it seems every thyroid nodule is a PTC until proven otherwise and every thyroid specimen has a papillary microcarcinoma." Depending on the attending, if the diagnostic impression was benign, it would have to be "blessed" before final signout. This goes the other way too. Another colleague with whom I trained is now at an institution where FV-PTCs are called much more seldomly. Hence, if an attending thinks it is an FV-PTC, that is usually shown around to confirm or deny it.
 
"it seems every thyroid nodule is a PTC until proven otherwise and every thyroid specimen has a papillary microcarcinoma."


Well said. This is was the default in the place where I did my fellowship. I still remember a case of thyroid nodule which the attending insisted that it was a FV-PTC. He showed it in a departmental conference and nobody agreed with him. He was obsessed with occasional grooving. Eventually, he signed it out as he wanted from the beginning...FV-PTC

Since this is the case, I have been wondering why people don't order the IHC. I think becuase if they do the IHC and turns out to be negative, they cannot call it with what they want..i.e. FV-PTC!!
 
Since this is the case, I have been wondering why people don't order the IHC. I think becuase if they do the IHC and turns out to be negative, they cannot call it with what they want..i.e. FV-PTC!!

Or they will still call it what they wanted to call it (FV-PTC) in the first place, and just comment that the IHC was non-contributory!
 
Top