Your opinion and True or False

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by DO/MBA, Apr 7, 2002.

  1. DO/MBA

    DO/MBA Member

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    True or false and your opinion:
    DO's that graduate Sigma Sigma Phi, top 10%, good people skills, and score higher than 250 on steps I & II have little or no chance to get into some high profile allopathic residencies in competitive specialties such as Ortho, Rad, neurosurg, and derm.
     
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  3. Jersey Girl

    Jersey Girl Member

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    I don't know why you would ask a question like this. It almost implies that you think DO's are lesser then MD's. I live in NJ, and with in 10 miles of where I live there is DO who is an orthopedic surgeon. He went to NYCOM. There is also a DO ophthalmologist locally. I have family members who have been treated by a very respected DO oncologist from Jersey Shore Medical Center in Neptune NJ. One of the most respected hospitals in my state. I know of these DO's simply by word of mouth from people who have seen them. I didn't go searching for them. So I don't think it is hard for DO's to get these positions at all.
     
  4. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member

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    Something like 7 or 8 NYCOM students matched into allopathic radiology programs this year. You be the judge.
     
  5. rad

    rad Member

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    It is not that DOs are any less qualified than MDs when applying for residency. The problem is the discrimination and ignorance that pervades allopathic medicine. On the other hand, why should allopathic residencies give the same consideration to osteopathic trained physicians. After all they do have their own residencies and medical schools. When you entered osteopathic school you knew that there would be a disadavantage down the line if you chose to apply to allopathic residencies. Why is it that now you expect to get equal treatment? I know that as a graduate of an allopathic school I would expect unfair treatment from osteopathic residencies. Also as an allopathic graduate I would be concerned about competitive residencies like rads, derm having DOs.
     
  6. whatsup

    whatsup Junior Member

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    Some one from WesternU COMP's 2002 graduate class matched with Kaiser Peramente in Los Angeles with a Radiology/Diagnostic program which means that he has to spend one year for his prelim, and he would advance to the radiology residency program the following year. I know MANY DOs from COMP matched with competative allo programs. WesternU has a very impressive resident matching record. You can contact WesternU for a complete listing of its residency matching for the 2002 class for verification.

    I think my opinion of WesternU's impressive residency matching is objective. FYI, I am not going to COMP. I will be a member of the MSUCOM 2006 class.
     
  7. DO/MBA

    DO/MBA Member

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    rad sees my point. Should we expect to get into these programs? Also, I am not talking about just any Allopathic residencies. I am talking about Yale, Hopkins, MGH, ect. Also, Elaina I am not making a statement of my opinion. I am looking for your response on that statement as it stands. This is a tough topic.
     
  8. Neurogirl

    Neurogirl Resident Extraordinaire

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    Rad,

    Why would you automatically be concerned about a program that had DOs? Not all allopathic PDs are ignorant and discriminatory. If you were a PD, would you rather have a DO with a step I of 240, or an MD with a step I of 210? Although there will always be programs that discriminate, there are also those that could care less about initials and just want to fill with the most qualified applicants. The DOs I know that matched in competitive fields and/or high ranking programs, had kick ass numbers. Simple as that.
     
  9. rad

    rad Member

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    Neurogirl, I think it is likely that there would be enough exceptional MD applicants to fill the positions in a competitive allopathic program. In most cases DOs would not be considered seriously for these positions. I also think that DO grads. are just as qualified and talented as MD grads (I work with some right now in my intern year). That being said, I do not think that they should be considered equally for allopathic residency positions. The osteopathic profession has their own residency programs. I do not expect equal treatment when applying for those no matter what my stats.

    Allopathic grads do become suspicious of programs with heavy concentrations of IMGS and DOs especially in competitive fields. Perhaps they think that the residency could not attract allopaths because of poor quality.
     
  10. Luca45

    Luca45 Junior Member

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    Here's 2 similar questions that this thread made me think about: Do you think those most competitive residencies are easier for a lower tier MD school than a DO school? And second, do these competitive spots go preferentially to ivy med school grads over anyone else? Anybody have any insight?
     
  11. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member

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    TRUE -
    I think that ideally osteopathic grads should have the same consideration for ACGME spots that the allopathic grads do. If I were a PD, I would want to fill my program with the best individuals regardless of whether they were MDs or DOs. Does this always happen? No. There are and always will be individuals, some of whom are PD's, who feel that DOs are sub-par compared to MDs. Just the way it is. I heard it several times on the interview trail..."Sure, we take DO's, we just keep a closer eye on their progress".
    Now, DO/MBA, if you don't mind me stirring the pot a little....I think that both the COMLEX and all AOA-residencies should be eliminated. You want to practice medicine, well then you have to take the USMLE's and complete an ACGME residency. Any thoughts out there?
     
  12. DO/MBA

    DO/MBA Member

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    migraineboy,
    I didn't think about it like that. I like that different mind set. I am glad I posted this topic.
     
  13. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned
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    Much of what I have heard about Osteopathic Residencies is that they are subpar to Allopathic Residencies.

    Now, I will be starting PCOM in the fall and I know when it does come time for me to apply to residencies, I am going to apply to the spots that offer me the best chance of becoming the type of physician I want to become.

    As far as "DOs having their own residencies"...I agree with that. Maybe when the trend for DO grads to apply more and more to Allopathic residencies and shun the Osteopathic residencies completely, then there will be some improvement in the quality of the Osteopathic programs.

    Now, I am only looking at this from the outside as I have not yet gotten involved in this process.

    As far as a comment someone made...same boards/same residencies. Again, I agree.

    Test me on the same stuff that you test an MD on. Let me learn in the same programs that MDs learn in. Give me the same test and the same chance for residency.

    Will that ever happen? Well, I'm only 4 years away, so I don't think I will be one of the trendsetters.
     
  14. Qafas

    Qafas Jarhead

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    Hi Everyone,
    I, too, will be attending an Osteopathic school this fall. Which one in particular, remains to be seen. And, like many of you, I am now realizing that we will have to travel a different path than our allopathic brethren, unless things change quite a bit ? something not likely in the short term. I am, however, not put off by my prospects at all, and continue to believe that I will have just as many options as an MD will, depending, of course, on how well I perform in school.
    While we cannot deny that there exists a very real difference between what the DOs and the MDs face once they graduate, I do not believe that the situation is as bad as some of us might think. I will have to agree that, in general, DO schools (my main concern here is the lack of research opportunities) and DO residencies leave much to be desired, when compared to some MD schools and residencies. However, no one can claim in good conscience that all 125 or so MD schools are better than all 19 DO schools, nor that all MD graduates are more qualified than DO grads. It would be utterly ridiculous to even entertain that notion. Is there still a preference for MDs at MD residencies? Perhaps. But, that has to be a reflection on the PD and not on the program. I seriously doubt that a wise PD would rather put out sub-par MDs than better qualified DOs.
    I am only now beginning to understand how the whole concept of residency works, so forgive me if I am mistaken in some assumptions. However, I keep reading that every year several residency spots, especially in the competitive ones, go unfilled because many of the applicants just are not sufficiently qualified. If that is true, it is good news, and I say that because it means that PDs really want to see qualified candidates filling their spots, and are not willing to lower the standards just to fill those spots. I doubt such programs would deny spots to qualified DOs simply because they are DOs.
    I am interested in a surgical career, as I am sure many of you are. But, I would really rather not go to an MD school over all DO schools, simply because it is an MD school. I will readily concede that many MD schools are better than many DO schools, but I will add that such an assessment of quality is relative. In other words, the high tier schools are better than the low tier ones, but the low tier schools are still very good schools, and will provide each of us with quality education. Ultimately, then, how well each one of us does in school is what will determine the options that are available to us once we graduate.
    Good luck to all!
     
  15. rad

    rad Member

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    qafas, regarding some of your statements:

    "continue to believe that I will have just as many options as an MD will, depending, of course, on how well I perform in school."

    Not true at all. You will be limited to non-competitive allopathic fields in mostly non-competitive academic centers, although there are some exceptions. find the discussion on this forum about pags, a highly qualified osteopath and his struggle to obtain a radiology residency.

    "I keep reading that every year several residency spots, especially in the competitive ones, go unfilled because many of the applicants just are not sufficiently qualified"

    residency spots in competitive fields go unfilled not because there are not enough qualified applicants. Usually it is because the program did not place enough applicants on the rank list or did not interview enough people.

    "I doubt such programs would deny spots to qualified DOs simply because they are DOs."

    Now this is something to believe in. Having DOs in a program is very unappealing for program directors as many allopaths try to stear clear of DO/IMG dependent residencies.

    qafas, I just want to give you an honest opinion. I am an allopathic graduate finishing up my first year of residency. I am starting my radiology residency in july. I know that there is tremendous discrimination out there against DO/IMG. Please try your best to get into any MD school, it will make your life so much easier.
     
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  17. jhug

    jhug 1K Member

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    azcom had three go to mayo this year-- pretty dang impressive if you ask me!!!
     
  18. rad

    rad Member

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    Although Mayo has one of the biggest names in medicine, it is not necessarily the best place to train and therefore its residency programs are not as competitive as you would think. For one thing it is located in rochester, MN (enough said). Also most of the patients are private, wealthy, white. Not good for a resident. You will spend a lot of your time watching and have minimal autonomy. US News and World Report ranks hospitals from a patient's perspective.
     
  19. Neurogirl

    Neurogirl Resident Extraordinaire

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    Rad,

    No one ever said there wasn't discrimination, but you really are exaggerating. As a DO who got my first choice allopathic residency and know MANY others who did as well (Yale (Anesth), Cleveland Clinic (Path), SLU (Anesth), UAB (radiology), USC (OB-GYN), UF (Surg), UT-SW (Neuro)), I know whereof I speak. I could name others (in even more high profile positions)...those are just the people I PERSONALLY know. To say that they are just the "exceptions" is just absurd. Also, we certainly don't face the same problems/discrimination as IMGs. Please do a little research and stop relying on rumor and anecdotal evidence.
     
  20. Luca45

    Luca45 Junior Member

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    Forgive me if this is a stupid question: What is so important about getting a "top quality" residency? Lets say there are two med school graduates (MD or DO) who get ortho residencies. One at the Hospital for special surgery in NY and one at south dakota county medical center. Both ultimately become surgeons in the field they wanted. Other than the prestige and convenience of a certain location, are there any long term benefits to being in a top quality site? Down the road if they both decide to go into private practice, does it matter where they did a residency?
     
  21. Docgeorge

    Docgeorge Bent Over and Violated

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    For what it's worth, I am a Wanna be DO (class of 2007). I am a Clinical Research Assistant at the University of California, Davis Medical Center. (Im pretty sure it's high up there in the prestiege field.) We have a lot of DO's who are residents in the Hospital: Anesthesiology, EM, IM, Radiology, and last year's Chief Resident of Neurosurgery was a DO.
    I have had a chance to talk to the PD of EM and various other clinical professors (who did not know my interest in becoming a DO) about how they view DO's when it comes time for residency, and they have said that they don't see any differences between the two. One attending even went on to say that one of the best residents he had seen for a long time in EM was a DO.

    just m $0.02.
     
  22. Arch Guillotti

    Arch Guillotti Senior Member
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  23. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rad:
    <strong>Although Mayo has one of the biggest names in medicine, it is not necessarily the best place to train and therefore its residency programs are not as competitive as you would think. You will spend a lot of your time watching and have minimal autonomy. US News and World Report ranks hospitals from a patient's perspective.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you nuts? You've got to be kidding? Mayo is an extraordinary place to train! The residents and fellows *DO NOT* just stand around and watch, rather they are given a lot of autonomy in patient care. The education in terms of didactics, board prep, research, and clinical care is outstanding. It's true that the patient population is not very diverse, but people fly from all over the world to go to the Mayo Clinic. You will see more rare diseases in people from far reaches of the globe at Mayo than anywhere else. I did a rotation there as a student and will do my residency there in PM&R. I know what I'm talking about...

    By the way, getting a Mayo residency is far, far, far from a cake walk. Most of the programs are very competitive because they are tops in their respective fields: Orthopedics, neurology, radiology, internal medicine, rehab, surgery, etc. Also, because the Mayo Foundation is huge and funds the residency slots, these programs are under no economic pressure to "fill their slots." If the program directors do not feel you are Mayo material you are simply not ranked.

    Just an FYI: I am writing this post from a research conference in Baltimore (American Federation of Clinical Research)

    <a href="http://www.afmr.org/" target="_blank">http://www.afmr.org/</a>

    where I'm presenting some data on OMT and I'm surrounded by folks from Hopkins, Mayo, Harvard, Penn, WashU, etc. You can find me on the program by clicking on "meetings" and "final program."

    Everyone here is clearly "on top of their game" and the folks from Mayo enjoy an excellent reputation...
     
  24. rad

    rad Member

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    clearly no bias in your post Dr. Russo
     

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