Your opinions are so helpful to me.

[nayahrichard]

Hi. I am new to SDN, and have researched these forums relentlessly about my position in the application process. I would like the community to take a glance into my position and give me some brief advice. I'm sure you are busy with your own agenda. Thank you.

Non-traditional student.
Received poor grades first 2 years of school
-accumulated a lot of C's and F's
Just attending a community college without any goals or direction in mind. Numerous W's and let a lot of grades slip into C's and F's out of pure youthful indiscretion and carelessness.(Didn't care to withdraw from classes mostly)

Eventually quit school (In hindsight, it was a great decision) with a 2.48 GPA.


I decided to enroll back into school and graduated with a 3.51 in my last two years of classes (This actually took 3 years). This is all while working 40+ plus hours.

My overall GPA, needless to say, is still low. I brought it up to an institutional 3.07. After calculating my GPA based off of AMCAS guidelines (including all +/-, besides A+, and including all F's, but not W's) my GPAs are: aoGPA: 2.89 BCPM: 2.95 cumGPA: 2.94.

But without the F's, which I hope they would consider due to immaturity and carelessness, are: aoGPA: 2.89 BCPM: 3.35 cumGPA: 3.26. World of a difference, yet still not as competitive as I would like.

Again like I said my last two years I finished off with a 3.51 institutional GPA with some semesters 3.75 and above in upper level Chem and Biology classes. My GPAs are low because of the C's and F's i got from my first two years of schooling at the community college.

MCAT score (PS,VR,BS)= 10,9,11,P

I have over 500 hours volunteering in the orthopedics clinic and ER at a state hospital and have 2 years work experience with a private internal medicine physician approx. 15 hrs/week. Volunteered building houses with my church, and Habitat on several occasions.

Decent LORs: from science faculty, and private physician.

1. Will my grades even be reviewed granted I have less than a 3.0?
2. Will they consider the GPAs w/o the F's when reviewing?
3. Will the SMP consider my GPA without the F's since it was from 5 years ago? Or do I need to conitnue taking post-bacc classes to raise my cumGPA with the F's above a 3.0?

Any suggestions? thanks

Thanks so much for your opinion. My goal is allopathic, although I may consider DO. I believe in both practices, but I'm such a traditionalist. I would rather go allopathic.

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[Charles Darwin]

I believe this should be moved to WAMC.

 

[nayahrichard]

how do i do that after having posted it here? Thanks

 

[music2doc]

OP, the volunteering and so forth looks promising, but unfortunately, I don't think the MD schools would look past your sub-3.0 GPA/30 MCAT. While the MCAT score is certainly admirable (around the 75th percentile), it's not likely to overcome your GPA (below the 10th percentile). My suggestion would be to retake those Fs (as well as any Ds) and get As. Then apply DO, which will ignore the Ds and Fs (if you've retaken the classes). This should bump your GPA up significantly. A 30 on the MCAT is strong for DO, whereas it is only borderline for MD. Best of luck!

As for your questions:

1. Will my grades even be reviewed granted I have less than a 3.0?


Sure, unless the school actually screens (most don't officially). That said, a <3.0 likely won't make it past the first round of weeding the apps.

2. Will they consider the GPAs w/o the F's when reviewing?


Nope. They will absolutely consider every grade. Fs will actually get more (not less) attention if you get to the interview stage. (They will often ask about the individual classes from what I've seen in the interview threads.)

3. Will the SMP consider my GPA without the F's since it was from 5 years ago? Or do I need to conitnue taking post-bacc classes to raise my cumGPA with the F's above a 3.0?

The independent, private SMPs generally look for students they feel are likely to matriculate to medical school as this boosts their numbers (i.e., if you want to boast a "99% success rate," you are best off selecting students you are 99% sure will get in somewhere). As a result, they are likely to evaluate you similarly to how a med school would. The SMPs associated with a med school will also be looking for students they feel can become successful. The result is that they are going to evaluate you as a med school might. Fs won't be ignored. The only way to ignore your Fs is the DO path after retaking those courses.

 

[nayahrichard]

Thanks for the reply. Again, those F's are not at all indicative of my performance. They were purely out of negligence to withdraw from the classes. If I inform adcoms of this, it will surely be looked as differently than your traditional Fs, no? My last two years scores(3.51) are clearly competitve for SMPs. So should i take post bacc classes to raise my cumGPA above a 3.0, just to get by the initial screening of applicants less than 3.0 for both SMP or MD?

 

[theseeker4]

Thanks for the reply. Again, those F's are not at all indicative of my performance. They were purely out of negligence to withdraw from the classes. If I inform adcoms of this, it will surely be looked as differently than your traditional Fs, no? My last two years scores(3.51) are clearly competitve for SMPs. So should i take post bacc classes to raise my cumGPA above a 3.0, just to get by the initial screening of applicants less than 3.0 for both SMP or MD?

You can tell them whatever you would like, but it doesn't matter that much whether you were negligent in not withdrawing, or negligent in not studying. Either case is not something to highlight. In interviews, sure, the fact that you can actually handle the material will be taken into account, but that is much better demonstrated by re-taking the classes and getting A's than simply stating you should have withdrawn but failed to. Take post-bac classes to get A's in all of your F's and D's. This will both prepare you for DO application and raise your overall MD GPA. If you are set on MD, keep taking post-bac classes in upper-level biology classes and the like to get your GPA up as high as possible. Even though your score is certainly not poor, intensively studying for the MCAT and improving your score there could help as well. If you re-take the F's and D's, you keep both options open, both gaining SMP acceptance, gaining MD acceptance and gaining DO acceptance. DO is probably the most likely, but re-taking the classes help for all three.

 

[nayahrichard]

I understand. I have taken all the classes I have gotten F's in already. And received B and B+.

It would make more sense for me now to take classes that are going to raise my BCPM, since inherently it will help out my cumGPA as well and forget about raising my aoGPA, correct? Or should I take a mixture of BCPM and aoGPA classes?

I calculated my GPA, and with just one semester (16 credit hrs) of post-bacc A's I am able to bring up my BCPM from a 2.95 to 3.07 and my cumGPA from a 2.94 to 3.03. Should I do another semester or is 3.07 and 3.03 good enough for SMP and future MD applications?

 

[Hotshy]

If you get an interview just explain how and why you got the F's you might be fine. On a side note, the Dean of admissions and Mount Sinai always tells the story about how he got a D in physics during undergrad( he also worked often during undergrad). He said he just explained it to the admissions committee and got accepted. If someone can get a D in a prereq and become a dean of admissions downs the road, you have a chance.

 

[music2doc]

OP, I don't want to discourage you, but I've noticed you keep pointing out that your 3.5 on recent coursework is competitive. Unfortunately, you really do need to get As consistently at this point. The average accepted applicant to MD programs has about a 3.7 now (3.68 this past year, I believe, and it has consistently risen about 0.01/yr for the last few years). A 3.5 is average for DO schools at this point. Unfortunately, you're not in either of those spots. If you want to go into medicine, you really need to quit rationalizing and go all-out. Excuses aren't going to fly in med school admissions any more than they fly at the "you're being let go for such-and-such that you did/didn't do for the Xth time this year" meeting with the HR rep and your boss. While you might be able to explain away some of the weak performance in an interview setting, you are assuming you'll actually make it to the interview with such weak performance.

Here are my notes from one school's stats on who gets interviewed (top 3rd school, loves academically strong non-trads):

Applied: ~5000
Offered Secondary: ~3500 (or 70% of applicants)
Interviewed: ~500 (or 10% of applicants)

Accepted: ~250 (or 5% of applicants/50% of interviewees)

Interviewees:
Median MCAT: 34 (10th-90th percentile range: 30-38)
Median GPA: 3.82 (10th-90th percentile range: 3.52-4.00)

 

[nayahrichard]

I was saying that my recent 3.5 GPA was competitive for SMP not for MD applicants. I understand how competitive it is for MD. My questions were concerning whether I should do a smester or two of post-bacc to raise my GPA above a 3.0, or if my current GPA along with my recent academic performance was enough to go ahead and apply for SMPs. Thank you

 

[music2doc]

I was saying that my recent 3.5 GPA was competitive for SMP not for MD applicants. I understand how competitive it is for MD. My questions were concerning whether I should do a smester or two of post-bacc to raise my GPA above a 3.0, or if my current GPA along with my recent academic performance was enough to go ahead and apply for SMPs. Thank you

I understand that, but even then you have got to perform quite a bit more strongly to make an SMP viable. SMPs are typically people's last ditch efforts. Almost everyone is performing at or near a 4.0 at that point. If you end up with a 3.5 in an SMP, you're toast. From what I've read, quite a few people come out with even 3.6s and 3.7s from an SMP and no one will take them despite their primarily A/A-/B+ grades in med school-level courses. So let this be a warning to you that you've got to step up your game from what it is even now.

 

[nayahrichard]

So should I take more classes to raise both my BCPM and cumGPA past a 3.0? or is my 2.94, with recent good upper level grades good enough to get into a SMP?

And will I bump into issues in the future applying to MD schools because of my 2.94 GPA, if I do well in SMP?

 

[Elpenor]

Retake the F's and apply DO

DO will 100% forgive the old grade and only consider the replacement...

much easier to raise your gpa this way

 

[nayahrichard]

hm..

 

[music2doc]

Retake the F's and apply DO

DO will 100% forgive the old grade and only consider the replacement...

much easier to raise your gpa this way

hm..

I get the feeling this is not the response you wanted, OP, but it really is the best option for you given your stats. To be a viable MD candidate would take MUCH more time AND money. If you want to be a physician, DO is your best bet. You can become a viable DO applicant with another ~12 mos' work and $5-15k and end up with a pretty good chance of getting in somewhere.

The MD route, on the other hand, would be much less likely to be successful even after the $30-50k and 2+ years the SMP would cost you. (From what I've seen, most SMPs only guarantee an interview at a given level of performance, although some will have a linkage program that allows them to say things like "90% of our students with a 3.8 or higher are admitted to XYZ medical school each year" -- it just sucks if you 1) don't make that cut, or 2) are among that unlucky 10% that make the cut despite making the GPA cutoff.)

 

[ozzi22]

OP, i think the best option is to enroll in an SMP program. it is basically taking medical classes with med students for a year i think, however if you do well in the program like have a GPA of 3.7 or above, your chances of getting into med school are increase and some programs may guarantee you acceptance at the home university (medical school). good luck

 

[nayahrichard]

Yea I believe I can produce good grades in an SMP. I managed to get a 3.5 working 50 plus hours, managing and consulting restaurants.I'm more concerned about acceptance into an SMP with my GPA. I should probably take a semester of post bacc to my raise my cum and BCPM GPA so that I can enter a SMP, and so that it doesn't hold me back after I complete the program.

 

[isoquin]

Thanks for the reply. Again, those F's are not at all indicative of my performance. They were purely out of negligence to withdraw from the classes. If I inform adcoms of this, it will surely be looked as differently than your traditional Fs, no?

Your excuse for gettings Fs is laziness, and you think this somehow works in your favor? That sounds like the exact same reason anyone would ever get an F in any class. Not to psychoanalyze too much, but what you are doing is called rationalization. It's a defense mechanism to protect yourself from an otherwise painful truth.

What you need right now is a good dose of reality and a push in the right direction. With that in mind, please forgive my sharp words, but if we can get you to drop the rationalization and move forward with goal-directed accomplishments, you will be in a much better position to apply to med school.

You screwed up. There is no excuse for it (especially bad excuses), but today is your turning point. Right here and now is when you call your past actions immature (instead of defending them) and move forward to prove to any admissions committee that you are dedicated to medicine and have the academic faculties to push hard and succeed. You do not prove this through words, but through relevant actions. Community college will not cut it. Trying to work 40 hours a week while doing this WILL greatly reduce your chances of success. Get yourself into classes that med students take, dedicate yourself to them, and knock them out of the ballpark. This not only proves you can handle them, but also establishes a new higher GPA instead of working hard to deal with the old one.

You can become a doctor, but you need a turning point in which you can say that everything before was bad, and everything since that point is undeniable evidence that you have what it takes.

 

[nayahrichard]

I agree with you. I didn't mean to come off as if I was rationalizing my actions. When I mentioned that I received F's from not withdrawing, it was merely to point out the fact that it wasn't because I was incapable of getting the good grades. Thank you for your opinion, you are absolutely correct. My last two years of undergraduate classes, and hopefully an upcoming SMP program will prove that there has been change.