you're such an animal!

[alliecat44]

Hi, guys! I'm a class officer at Kansas State's vet school and there's a medical school down the road at KU. Why is this relevant, you ask?

Well, I'm thinking there's probably some mutual curiosity regarding the nature of our respective programs--what each anatomy lab is like, what we're learning, the structure of the program, analogous terms/diseases/etc ("do people get x?" "do dogs have a y?"). Mayhaps it might be fun for us medically-minded folk to get together!

As med students, would you have any interest in a casual get-together and/or "Olympics"-type event and/or attending a speaker on the One Medicine principle (www.onemedicinenc.org)? Just trying to gauge what if any interest you guys have in your veterinary counterparts.
Any thoughts/suggestions/opinions welcome!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gary yoghurt]

If you're female, and hot, then yes, I'm naturally interested in anything that spills from your lips. But if you're unattractive and would like to wax poetic on the beauty of cricket anatomy, then I'm busy.

 

[osli]

 

[TeNa]

LOL, what a response!

 

[alliecat44]

I guess it really is true that vet school is harder to get into than med school...

 

[SomeDoc]

Hi, guys! I'm a class officer at Kansas State's vet school and there's a medical school down the road at KU. Why is this relevant, you ask?

Well, I'm thinking there's probably some mutual curiosity regarding the nature of our respective programs--what each anatomy lab is like, what we're learning, the structure of the program, analogous terms/diseases/etc ("do people get x?" "do dogs have a y?"). Mayhaps it might be fun for us medically-minded folk to get together!

As med students, would you have any interest in a casual get-together and/or "Olympics"-type event and/or attending a speaker on the One Medicine principle (www.onemedicinenc.org)? Just trying to gauge what if any interest you guys have in your veterinary counterparts.
Any thoughts/suggestions/opinions welcome!

Sorry alliecat, for the unsavory responses you have gotten thusfar. While I cannot speak for my colleagues, I think it's a great intellectual concept, but turnout or interest might be low with such an organization/event, primarily due to ill-perceived lack of similarities between the two professions by medical students.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You might want to check out KU's thread in the class threads section of this forum and ask them there. It seems like an invitation specifically directed at them, so you probably won't get the best response here in allo.

Personally I'd like to learn some basic skills like using my stethoscope on my cats to see if they're sick.

 

[alliecat44]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys. I appreciate it. I thought about posting specifically in the KU forum, but decided against it--for now--because I wanted a broader opinion on what might be enticing to them or whatever. The whole "two heads are better than one" principle (or thousands better than a hundred!).

Hmm, learning to auscult your cat--interesting! Comparing locations for ausculting the various valves and whatnot. Do humans have an area of absolute cardiac dullness? I'm such a nerd, but I think it would be fun to learn about ausculting a person, too. (Not that you can be competent until you do it a few hundred times, but still!)

Any other ideas, I'd love to hear 'em. FYI, Oklahoma State has a vet school! No idea how far that is from you...

Thanks!!!

 

[Ashers]

I practiced my using my panoptic ophthalmoscope by shining it in my cat's eyes (after i tried it on my dad, sister and mom). She wasn't too happy with me.

 

[Blade28]

Do humans have an area of absolute cardiac dullness? I'm such a nerd, but I think it would be fun to learn about ausculting a person, too.

I have no idea what area that is - when auscultating a heart, usually we just quickly listen to the four valves. I use the following order (since I'm almost always on the right side of the patient):

(1) RUSB (right upper sternal border), 2nd ICS (intercostal space), aortic valve
(2) LUSB, 2nd ICS, pulmonic valve
(3) LLSB, 5th ICS, tricuspid valve
(4) MCL (mid-clavicular line), 5th ICS, mitral valve

 

[Sean2tall]

I agree that I'm definitely interested in what goes on at the other school situation, although I am nowhere near Kansas, I do have a friend at Ohio State vet school. She was surprised once when I said something about multiparous people delivering their babies real fast and said it was weird to hear of humans being referred to as multiparous or nulliparous. Also, when I take my cats to the vet, it is kind of interesting to see the way things are done. I think the vet was basically using a regular people stethoscope and she said, "Oh well, I can't hear them because they're purring too much," which is something that never occurred to me would be a problem.

 

[alliecat44]

Funny--for some reason, hearing about "multiparous" humans really is kind of weird/icky (for want of a better term).

When ausculting a cat who's purring, you can either a) hold an alcohol-soaked gauze pad under their nose, or b) turn on a faucet (no idea why this last one works). The same doesn't work they're actually growling and hissing at you, of course.

The area of absolute cardiac dullness arises I suppose just because their ribcage is oriented horizontally. It's where the pericardium contacts the thoracic wall. On the left, it's up to about the level of the costochondral junction in IC spaces 4 and 5 and a bit less dorsal in 6. On the right, it can be heard 1-2cm dorsal to the sternum in spaces 4-5. Makes sense that people don't have one, but wanted to check!

Normal auscultation sites for dog/cat:
Pulmonary--intermediate level, ICS 3 on L
Aortic--high in 4th space, L
Mitral--low 5th space, L
Tricuspid--low 4th space, R

Thoracocetesis is usually done in the 7th-8th space, though in cats you're safer with the more caudal option, as their heart sits just a bit more caudal.

And as an extra bonus interesting fact, spinal taps are done under general anesthesia (duh) and don't seem to cause them any pain whatsoever. (Our clients always worry about this, but it's true!) We think it's because of the horizontal orientation of the spinal canal, but I haven't heard a good anatomical explanation.

P.S. There really aren't any veterinary stethoscopes, though some who do avians/exotics or see a lot of kittens have both a pediatric and a regular head. Myself, I enjoy my Littman Master Cardio III.

 

[StealthDog]

Perhaps a "why vets shouldn't practice on humans, and MDs shouldn't practice veterinary medicine" talk would be helpful. I think a comparative pharmacology talk would be great, considering how many times I've heard stories of MDs giving their dogs ibuprofen (oh please don't do that!), or vets taking horse medicine that induces immune-mediated thrombocytopenia in humans (oh please don't do that either!).

 

[alliecat44]

LOL, StealthDog...you're too right. I know fabulous MDs who are clients, and pain-in-the-neck MDs who think they have a DVM. (I'm sure they experience the same with us, but for my part, I'm always just really interested in anything they're doing/how they're doing it--and jealous that their patients don't bite or scratch them!).

Would love to hear any more ideas...

 

[drlisa0318]

Any other ideas, I'd love to hear 'em. FYI, Oklahoma State has a vet school! No idea how far that is from you...

Thanks!!!

OSUCOM is in Tulsa. OSU Vet School is in Stillwater, about 1.5 hours west of Tulsa. OU Med School is in Oklahoma City, about 2 hours SW of Tulsa and about the same distance from Stillwater (I think......I"m rarely in the OKC area, so I don't know it as well.)

 

[Doctor Bagel]

OSUCOM is in Tulsa. OSU Vet School is in Stillwater, about 1.5 hours west of Tulsa. OU Med School is in Oklahoma City, about 2 hours SW of Tulsa and about the same distance from Stillwater (I think......I"m rarely in the OKC area, so I don't know it as well.)

Stillwater native here. OU's med school is about 50 minutes from Stillwater, and Tulsa's a little more than hour away (maybe an hour and 10 minutes). Hmm, Stillwater would be a somewhat convenient meeting spot for both schools.

Does anybody know any OSU vet students?

 

[drlisa0318]

Stillwater native here. OU's med school is about 50 minutes from Stillwater, and Tulsa's a little more than hour away (maybe an hour and 10 minutes). Hmm, Stillwater would be a somewhat convenient meeting spot for both schools.

Does anybody know any OSU vet students?

Ahhhh...I was basing the distance to Stillwater from where I live, not the school. And I had no idea that OU med school was so close to Stillwater...jeez, you'd think after living here for 18 years I'd know that

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Ahhhh...I was basing the distance to Stillwater from where I live, not the school. And I had no idea that OU med school was so close to Stillwater...jeez, you'd think after living here for 18 years I'd know that

I just know it because I make the drive pretty frequently. Of course, I'm usually going a little over the speed limit.

 

[deleted77919]

(I'm sure they experience the same with us, but for my part, I'm always just really interested in anything they're doing/how they're doing it--and jealous that their patients don't bite or scratch them!).

Would love to hear any more ideas...

I'm only a medical student and I have had more than one pt attempt to bite and or scratch me. None successfully fortunately.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

I'm only a medical student and I have had more than one pt attempt to bite and or scratch me. None successfully fortunately.

Yeah, but you can blue-juice your patients if they get out of hand as a vet.

The more important question about the OP's endeavor:

Why are trying to build rapport with KU!??!? BLASPHEMY!! ROCK-CHALK CHICKEN-HAWK...

 

[Sean2tall]

I've heard stories of MDs giving their dogs ibuprofen (oh please don't do that!)

What does that do?

 

[StealthDog]

Here's the story we got in Physiology last year:

Why you shouldn't give dogs Ibuprofen:

History: An owner (an M.D.) noticed that his two year old Borzoi was acting a little arthritic, so he decided to give her some Ibuprofen. He extrapolated the dog's dose from the human dose, and gave it to her for three days. One the third day, they came into the hospital, and the dog was flat-out, with blood coming out of her mouth and nose, extremely dehydrated, unresponsive.

What happened: Ibuprofen is what's known as a COX inhibitor. COX is an enzyme that makes prostaglandins, the molecules responsible for causing fever and pain. So, if you inhibit COX, you stop pain and fever. However, there are two kinds of COX (COX-1 and COX-2). COX-2 is the one responsible for pain and fever, while COX-1 makes prostaglandins that keep your body running normally. In particular, they help to protect your stomach lining from the acid that your stomach secretes. Ibuprofin inhibits both of those COX enzymes, so while it releives pain, it also lowers your body's protective stomach lining (which is why long-term, heavy usage of Ibuprofin in humans can lead to stomach ulcers). The MD gave his dog a much higher dose of Ibuprofin than a dog can handle, so within three days, his dog had large, bleeding ulcers in her stomach.

The outcome: After three days of Ibuprofen, the dog spent three weeks in the Intensive Care Unit at the hospital. The options to treat the bleeding ulcers were either to treat them medically and hope they'd heal, or go in and surgically remove them. They decieded to treat medically. She did ultimately make a full recovery. The cost? $117,700. The lesson? Pay attention to species differences in physiology!!! Animal pain relievers (i.e. Metacam) selectively inhibit COX-2, without inhibiting COX-1.

 

[Sean2tall]

Here's the story we got in Physiology last year:

Why you shouldn't give dogs Ibuprofen:

History: An owner (an M.D.) noticed that his two year old Borzoi was acting a little arthritic, so he decided to give her some Ibuprofen. He extrapolated the dog's dose from the human dose, and gave it to her for three days. One the third day, they came into the hospital, and the dog was flat-out, with blood coming out of her mouth and nose, extremely dehydrated, unresponsive.

What happened: Ibuprofen is what's known as a COX inhibitor. COX is an enzyme that makes prostaglandins, the molecules responsible for causing fever and pain. So, if you inhibit COX, you stop pain and fever. However, there are two kinds of COX (COX-1 and COX-2). COX-2 is the one responsible for pain and fever, while COX-1 makes prostaglandins that keep your body running normally. In particular, they help to protect your stomach lining from the acid that your stomach secretes. Ibuprofin inhibits both of those COX enzymes, so while it releives pain, it also lowers your body's protective stomach lining (which is why long-term, heavy usage of Ibuprofin in humans can lead to stomach ulcers). The MD gave his dog a much higher dose of Ibuprofin than a dog can handle, so within three days, his dog had large, bleeding ulcers in her stomach.

The outcome: After three days of Ibuprofen, the dog spent three weeks in the Intensive Care Unit at the hospital. The options to treat the bleeding ulcers were either to treat them medically and hope they'd heal, or go in and surgically remove them. They decieded to treat medically. She did ultimately make a full recovery. The cost? $117,700. The lesson? Pay attention to species differences in physiology!!! Animal pain relievers (i.e. Metacam) selectively inhibit COX-2, without inhibiting COX-1.

Hmm. . . That actually sounds pretty much the same as humans, with the exception being that a dog is much more sensitive to smaller amounts. Cox2 inhibitors have also been used in humans (Celebrex, Vioxx etc.) but of course there is all kinds of controversy regarding that, heart disease risk and so-on. I guess I was imagining some totally crazy and different reason why dogs can't take ibuprofen, "Well Sean, you see, dogs have an accessory spleen which concentrates the ibuprofen and then causes them to explode into a million pieces."

Which reminds me, what's the deal with this whole "dogs can't have chocolate thing"? Anything interesting, or just irritates the stomach with all the caffeine and such?

 

[alliecat44]

Actually, Sean, some dogs DO have accessory spleens. I've also heard them called ectopic splenic tissue or daughter spleens--they can be as big as a quarter, and sometimes there are multiple daughter spleens! They only occur in the omentum and the thinking is that some cells were left over from the ___ embryologically and then differentiated in the wrong place (I should know this, since my embryology midterm was this morning, but I don't! ack!). In any case, they're harmless. Funny you should mention it...

Dogs do, however, have a storage or reserve spleen, whereas humans have a defensive spleen. (more lymphoid tissue). Basically, dogs/cats/horses have a lot more smooth muscle in their spleen, and so can hold a great deal more blood (that whole fight or flght/prey/hunter response thing). When splenic contraction occurs due to sympathetic discharge, their hematocrit can go up by like 10%! It's pretty cool.

As for chocolate and dogs, there's a chemical in chocolate that's actually toxic. However, the misconception lies in how much a dog needs to eat before it's actually toxic. Milk chocolate has the least concentration of this chemical, so a lab would have to eat something like 20 Hershey bars (don't quote me on that exact amount--I'm too lazy to look up a table right now) to be harmful. Semisweet chocolate is higher in the chemical, and baker's chocolate is the most lethal (of which only a small amount is needed to cause severe problems). Obvoiusly, toxic amounts depend on a dog's body weight.

Now back to stressing about my cat's weight loss and sudden grade III/VI heart murmur....c'mon, T4 results....

 

[Sean2tall]

Actually, Sean, some dogs DO have accessory spleens. I've also heard them called ectopic splenic tissue or daughter spleens--they can be as big as a quarter, and sometimes there are multiple daughter spleens! They only occur in the omentum and the thinking is that some cells were left over from the ___ embryologically and then differentiated in the wrong place (I should know this, since my embryology midterm was this morning, but I don't! ack!). In any case, they're harmless. Funny you should mention it...

Yeah that's pretty much the same in humans, I was just joking around. I have actually seen it once so far on autopsy. Pretty nifty.

Dogs do, however, have a storage or reserve spleen, whereas humans have a defensive spleen. (more lymphoid tissue). Basically, dogs/cats/horses have a lot more smooth muscle in their spleen, and so can hold a great deal more blood (that whole fight or flght/prey/hunter response thing). When splenic contraction occurs due to sympathetic discharge, their hematocrit can go up by like 10%! It's pretty cool.

That's wild, I did not know that. If a human had that, it would be like a super power.

As for chocolate and dogs, there's a chemical in chocolate that's actually toxic. However, the misconception lies in how much a dog needs to eat before it's actually toxic. Milk chocolate has the least concentration of this chemical, so a lab would have to eat something like 20 Hershey bars (don't quote me on that exact amount--I'm too lazy to look up a table right now) to be harmful. Semisweet chocolate is higher in the chemical, and baker's chocolate is the most lethal (of which only a small amount is needed to cause severe problems). Obvoiusly, toxic amounts depend on a dog's body weight.

Interesting, so it's not the caffeine then, it's something else?

 

[StealthDog]

so it's not the caffeine then, it's something else?

Right, it's an alkaloid called theobromine.

Cats have a defective glucuronide conjugation pathway, so they are often unable to metabolize some drugs at all, and metabolize others very slowly. The toxic dose of ibuprofen for a cat is about half that for a dog, and acetominophen can cause toxicity in cats in doses as low as 10 mg/kg. Not quite an accessory spleen, but more interesting than just an increased sensitivity, right?

We got to see the lung of a dog who suffered a complete lung torsion in path lab yesterday. Does that ever happen in humans? I've never heard of it. It looked exceedingly painful.

 

[norky]

The reason that dogs and cats in particular are sensitive to ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin etc.. is that they have a decreased glucuronyl-conjugating capacity because they have deficient glucuronyl transferase. So, during metabolism of the drug the Phase II detox. pathway becomes saturated, as a result there is an increase in reactive electrophillic compounds which leads to hepatic cell death and eventually liver failure. Dogs are able to tolerate small doses, but cats must never be given ibuprofen, aspirin, or acetaminophen because they have very low levels of glucuronyl transferase. However, dogs should never be given sulphonamides because they no acetylation.

 

[Sean2tall]

We got to see the lung of a dog who suffered a complete lung torsion in path lab yesterday. Does that ever happen in humans? I've never heard of it. It looked exceedingly painful.

Wow, I have never heard of such a thing in humans, although searching on it just now, it seems like it has happened but very rarely! That's crazy. So in this case you saw, the lung was rotated or kinked at the hilum or something? Definitely not something they mention to us in med school.

Also thanks for the explanations of the other stuff to all.

And also, nice bunny avatar! That's funny.

 

[LawCash]

This thread reminds me of this article I read awhile back:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=32EA05AC-E7F2-99DF-3B28FBBB0352D1C3&sc=I100322

I thought the last paragraph was the most interesting. It's about how cats may be getting diabetes because cat food producers put too much carbohydrates in their food while poor kitties might not be able to digest it as readily (or at all) as us.

 

[StealthDog]

It's about how cats may be getting diabetes because cat food producers put too much carbohydrates in their food while poor kitties might not be able to digest it as readily (or at all) as us.

You're very right. Carbs are cheaper to put in food than protein, but while dogs can utilize them for energy, cats can't. Because cats don't have glucokinase, they can't utilize large amounts of carbohydrates, so when a cat eats a high-carb diet, most of the carbs pass right on through. This is one factor in chronic diarrhea, which is a relatively frequent complaint in cats. High carb diets have also been implicated in obesity and diabetes.

Lots of cat people (and vets) are starting to promote low-carb, high-protein diets like EVO or Instinct for cats. The problem is that cats are usually very picky about their food and can easily become "carb addicts"... so it can be really hard to switch them to a high-protein food even though it would be healthier for them.

 

[StealthDog]

nice bunny avatar! That's funny.

Thanks! That's my bunny Pipkin, who's currently trying to recover from the bunny version of vestibular disease. Poor boy, he's all tippy.

So in this case you saw, the lung was rotated or kinked at the hilum or something?

Yeah, it had rotated around the hilum. They said it probably happened secondary to a hemothorax, but the dog must have been anatomically predisposed to it because he had to have a "lung lobe-ectomy" six months prior on a lobe in the opposite lung.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

And the better cat food costs a lot more, which makes it hard for poor medical students to buy for their kitties.

 

[StealthDog]

And the better cat food costs a lot more, which makes it hard for poor medical students to buy for their kitties.

We get free food from several companies while we're in school... but once we're out we have to pay for it like everyone else. :/

If you have any vet school friends, talk to them! I could theoretically get food from Hills, Purina, Iams/Eukaneuba, and Natura for free or cheap once a month... That adds up to a lot of food.