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ZERO TOLERANCE

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by DOPhD student, Apr 15, 1999.

  1. DOPhD student

    DOPhD student Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    145
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    Nov 18, 1998
    somewhere on earth
    With all due respect to posters, I suspect that most of DO students and premeds going into osteopathic medicine, including myself, are really tired of the cliche debate over DO/MD issues and whether or not DOs are better or worse than MDs. Give it a rest. If it is a nonissue with practicing MDs and DOs, why should it be an issue with you PREMEDS? As a junior student, I may occasionally humor a DO vs. MD question if it's taken from a unique and constructive point of view. However, let me share a secret: I suspect that most DO students don't enjoy having to explain anything to you PREMEDS concerning their decision to attend osteopathic schools. I, for one, don't feel the necessity to justify myself or defend my position or convince you of anything. Do what you feel is suitable for yourself. Go to an MD school if you choose or a DO school if the calling is there. I certainly don't think that DO schools are knocking down your doors to recruit you nor are they taking a gun to your heads to force you to take the DO route. Bottom line is, if you want trash, crap, controversy, backtrack and go through the garbage bin to look for past DO vs. MD issues. Otherwise, don't post anymore DO vs. MD issues if they are intended to insinuate that one profession is superior to another. There are several reasons for this: 1) It's been done 2) You haven't got the right to criticize either profession because you haven't spent a day in medical school yet, and so go earn yourself the MD or DO degree before you talk trash 3) We, DO students, just don't care what you PREMEDS have to say although we do get annoyed. Some of us are too nice and fall back on a defensive position, trying to justify ourselves to you who deserve neither our time nor our obligation. I on the other hand will not hesitate to tell you quite frankly that although annoying as you might be, like Jehovah's witness, I do not care what your opinion is whether favorable or not. You're entitled to your opinion but do not come up to my face and confront me with it (and incidentally, posting your opinion in an osteopathic forum is akin to confronting me with it) because I will not back down. Your best bet is to go elsewhere where your opinion my be better appreciated by other premeds, and while you're here in an osteopathic forum, show some respect for osteopathic medicine. Let the guest be respectful of the host and vice versa even if they don't see eye to eye.
     
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  3. Hskermdic

    Hskermdic Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    294
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    Nov 17, 1998
    Kansas
    DOPhD Student,
    If you don't like what the premeds have to say why are you reading the premed board. I admit that I have not been following the DO/MD discussions on this board so maybe what you are saying is justified. I do know that I am a premed that will be attending a DO school next year (KCOM) and am tired of facing my current set of classmates who chose allopathic schools and hearing how manipulation has no business in medicine etc. It is nice to be able to come to this site and enjoy discussions with others who feel that manipulation can play a role in medicine.

    Carrie
     
  4. sean

    sean Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Mar 11, 1999
    San Francisco
    Oh wise DOPHD student. Get a grip. If you don't want to lower yourself to talk us poor unfortunate and misguided pre-meds then don't log on to this site. You know THE PRE-MED SITE. I hope you are not as condescending to your patients. The DO v's MD may be old and tired to you but guess what, it was new to you at some point. While I personally think that the two professions are just different, not better or worse, I do respect other peoples to explore their own ideas. Nobody is forcing you to read any of these postings so if it disturbs you that much just click that mouse of yours and it will all go away. Your posting was one of the rudest that I have read to date, and I will definitly make sure that I do not subject you to a mere pre-meds opinions in the future.
     
  5. sean

    sean Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    141
    0
    Mar 11, 1999
    San Francisco
    Oh wise DOPHD student. Get a grip. If you don't want to lower yourself to talk us poor unfortunate and misguided pre-meds then don't log on to this site. You know THE PRE-MED SITE. I hope you are not as condescending to your patients. The DO v's MD may be old and tired to you but guess what, it was new to you at some point. While I personally think that the two professions are just different, not better or worse, I do respect other peoples to explore their own ideas. Nobody is forcing you to read any of these postings so if it disturbs you that much just click that mouse of yours and it will all go away. Your posting was one of the rudest that I have read to date, and I will definitly make sure that I do not subject you to a mere pre-meds opinions in the future.
     
  6. DOPhD student

    DOPhD student Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    145
    0
    Nov 18, 1998
    somewhere on earth
    Sean, my intention is not to ruffle anyone's feather with my post, and I see nothing rude about stating one's opinion candidly. I have received many e-mails in the past from pre-meds asking me about osteopathic medicine or medicine in general, and I'm always willing to extend a hand to help an aspiring physician when he/she requires information. What I will not entertain however is somebody who yaks in every post about how osteopathic schools are not up to par or that DO students are all blind followers of some erroneous philosophy. Case and point, OldManDave got all excited about being accepted to KCOM, and Dogboy had the audacity to belittle Dave's achievements by saying casually in his post that Dave would gladly abandon ship if an allopathic school gives him a chance. That may or may not be true unto itself, but when one says things such as this, implying osteopathic schools are always the safety net for applicants and that Dave is not good enough to get into an MD program, the falsehood has to be promptly quelled. Dave corrected Dogboy in a follow-up post. Debating on the advantages of attending either school is fine, but when a person flings **** around and calls that debate, I don't buy it. Here I'm referring to Dogboy's bull**** because that's what I've been having to trudge through lately. Case and point, he attacked Greg for posting an ethical issue. He constantly attacked Henry for grammar and spelling even he himself probably needs to do some grammar/spelling check himself. He again mocked osteopathic profession for no reason in the post that discusses whether a physician can be both competent and compassionate. It may be redundant but does not warrant a personal attack, and more importantly the osteopathic profession should not be dragged unto the fray with a mockery of an osteopathic oath. I may not have made myself clear enough to you and Carrie concerning my position in this. I'm more than happy to discuss with anyone things pertaining to osteopathic medicine and even the advantages/disadvantages of attending an osteopathic medical college (and so I've done that in past posts), but I do not want to see trashy posts bashing osteopathic medicine from Dogboy or lala, who should have left when he/she said so sometime back. DO students owe no one, including premeds, any explanation of why we go into osteopathic medicine. That is none of your business but our own, as yours is your own to deal with. I'm sorry if my post got you rattled, but if no one speaks up, the yaking might continue with impunity.
     
  7. I challenge you DOPHD to find one post, just one where I actually ridiculed Henry for grammar or spelling. I once said he makes ridiculous comments but that doesn't mention his command of the english language. I actually think he speaks quite well for someone whose native language is chinese.

    In regards to Greg's comments I think he is going way overboard with saying this guy should be kicked out of school and his spot is wasted. He is too personally involved because it involved his grandparents.

    Now if you hate trudging through all this crap then why do you perpetuate this mindset by posting comments like yours. I can't post any because to you it is crap but then you respond by attacking me and anyone else who frustrates you. Nobody has ever got as inflammatory as you have the past few days.
     
  8. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    1,768
    3
    Feb 26, 1999
    Lafayette, IN
    I have a suggestion for ALL parties involved in what has turned into a verbal foray...let's call a truce and agree that we all dis-agree on some points and leave it at that. This way, we can all return to making constructive informative postings and no longer feel the need to defend ourselves or escalate this ongoing commentary. One thing is for certain, a game of one-up-manship is granted a life of it's own when the participants are as competitive in nature as pre-med and med students.

    Besides, a peaceful resolution is way over-due!

    Thanks

    [​IMG]



    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    KCOM, Class of '03
     
  9. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    181
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    Jan 28, 1999
    Kirksville, MO
    I don't think Gregory was going too far when he said that the guy should be thrown out. A major problem with society is that there is WAY TOO MUCH tolerance of mistakes. We are so stuck on the idea that people make mistakes and people should get a second chance that we forget in too many instances to look at how serious the mistake was.

    If you kill someone, you can still get out of prison after 25 years and start a new life. What kind of justice is that? You take another human being's life but you still get a chance at yours? I believe in an eye for an eye, and in the case of 1st degree murder, your punishment should fit your crime. Not necessarily capital punishment but the rest of your life should be spent in prison. You took a life, now your life as you now know it should be taken from you as well.

    How about DUI or DWI? If you're convicted, you may get your license suspended, receive a fine, and maybe even spend a few days in jail. If it's your first offense, then you'll bascially get just a slap on the wrist. Why? Because we believe that people should get second chances. Enough of this crap! If you commit a serious offense, your punishment, especially for a 1st offense, should be severe. That is the only way that you can be discouraged from doing the same stupid thing in the future. May not work, but it sure will be more of a deterrent than a slap on the wrist.

    There is no doubt that the medical student made a huge mistake. Part of me wants to forgive him and give him another chance. Maybe he just had finals and was completely stressed out. Maybe he just panicked. After all, everyone makes errors in judgement throughout their lives. Why not give him academic probation and have him do commmunity service or something? Because we are letting him make excuses! It's a shame that he might have to lose his seat in medical school but we already forgive people for too many things. It's time that people started thinking ahead of time about the consequences of their actions.
     
  10. Henry

    Henry Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 30, 1998
    Hey Dogboy,

    Thanks for the comment regarding my english capability. I am getting very well known by all your posting.

    Regarding your comment to give the hit-and-run driver a second chance. I want to ask, who give the victim a second chance for being alive. What if Greg, grandparents are critically injure?

    What if you Dogboy are the victim in this accident, will you forgive the driver and not even thinking about suing him?

    When you are in emergency room, you want a doctor that behave like that to treat you, or your wife, or let him treat your kids?
    We gave criminals too many second chance and ignore the right of the victims.

    How many times do we need to forgive a rapist before we realize we were wrong? Irresponsibility is a disease that is very difficult to be cured. This disease can show up in different form, such as drunk driving, hit-and-run, medical malpractice over-up, corruption, etc, you name it.



    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited April 16, 1999).]
     
  11. sean

    sean Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    141
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    Mar 11, 1999
    San Francisco
    DOPhD. Apology accepted. It was my understsanding that the term "pre-med" as used on this site pefers to both Osteopathic and Allopathic fields. I stand corrected.
     
  12. mevannorden

    mevannorden Member 10+ Year Member

    57
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    Mar 20, 1999
    Des Moines, IA USA
    I agree that this country is WAY to leniant on criminals. I would, however, argue against a blanket statement that the MD student should be tossed out for his actions. Without knowing the exact circumstances surrounding his actions, I don't believe we are in a position to make a judgment on his future. Some might argue that his actions are indicative of an underlying moral deficit. This may be true. My guess (and a guess is all it is)is that the person does have an underlying moral deficit of some sort that precipitated his/her (I must be politically correct, here!) response. If this is true, he/she should probably be expelled. However, my lack of information ultimately disqualifies me (and all others with similar lack of info)from making a judgment in this case. At least that's my opinion! [​IMG]
     
  13. Gregory Gulick

    Gregory Gulick Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Nov 9, 1998
    Largo, Florida (USA)
    I have not been able to log on much recently, and was surprised to find this thread so active, and concerning something I never even said. I just wanted to ask, when did I ever say that the medical student should be thrown out? Certainly, it wouldn't matter if I did voice such an opinion because, after all, it would be my opinion and we all know how strongly certain persons here insist on the protection of their opinions.

    Here's the original text from my message:

    It occurred to me: we have truly have no means to assess the quality of ANY medical school applicant. Undoubtedly, this student must be intelligent and posess good numbers like everyone else. But in my opinion, his seat in that medical school is wasted. His lack of responsibility for his own actions disqualifies him from being responsible for others. It is entirely possible that someday he might possess the knowledge of HOW to practice good medicine, but lack the ethics and values to put that knowledge to proper use.

    I do, however, firmly believe that his spot is wasted. Meaning: he should have been screened out in the application process (the original intent of the discussion). Granted, he may be intelligent and someday may very well possess the knowledge necessary to practice good medicine. But he obviously lacks the ethical and moral foundations necessary to put his medical education to proper use.

    It is not up to me to have him thrown out of school. I am content to let the law and the medical school administration deal with the issue. They know far more about the situation than I. But, if one can be thrown out of medical school for presenting dishonest information on a medical school application, surely it should not seem outrageous to consider expulsion for someone that committed a felony that resulted in the injury of another person.

    And new information has surfaced. To make matters worse, the guy actually filed a false report to the police department saying that someone hit him in the front (!) and then left the accident. So if being involved in a hit-and-run isn't enough, he filed false claims.

    The whole intent of that original posting was not even about the medical student but about the possibility (or impossibility) of assessing someone's ethical grounding. Some people, out of a baseless hatred of me, read what they wanted to read in order to disagree and argue with me... and I expect more of the same sort of shallow, newbie bunk from this posting as well. Feel free to respond accordingly as I assure you that I will ignore those responses with all un-due respect.

    [​IMG]

    P.S.
    Kenny, got that bucket ready?

    P.P.S.
    Thanks, everyone, for the kind words concerning my grandmother. As of now, there has been no change in her condition.

    [This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited April 17, 1999).]
     
  14. lala

    lala Junior Member

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    Feb 27, 1999
    gregory,
    first of all, you used the example as a means of demonstrating your point that we should be able to screen applicants that have no moral character. if you use an example, it should be to support your argument. this example was pulled apart by others because you did not have the full information at the time but still made a value judgement about this person. like said before, it could have been his friend or he may have just panicked. nonetheless, you still made a value judgement on something that you did not fully know. thus, the claim that there are reasons to screen applicants based on ethical value is unsupported because you have not validated an instance where a med student is definitively unethical and immoral.(i'm not saying that there aren't instances, just that your example did not prove so)

    second, you also demonstrated why we should not judge other peoples ethics and morals. you made a value judgement on something that you did not have full information about. there are many instances when people have committed "unethical" acts for good reason, eg: buying marijuana (for cancer victims), etc.

    in addition to this, who's morals are we trying to screen for? that of the admissions commitee's or that of the applicant's culture? an example: the US vs. Sonny Nicholas. this is a case where a young gypsy man was sentenced to six months in prison because he used his nephews social security number to buy a car. sharing "american" identities is a common gypsy tradition but is illegal practice in the US. even though this young man was very moral (he returned the car as soon as he was questionned and may his car payments faithfully), he was deemed immoral by federal law. not only did he go to jail, he also had to face the threat of being "unclean" as he had to eat food prepared by the hands of non-gypsies. thus, not only was he punished for somehting that he did not consider immoral, he was also forced to become unclean by his cultural standards.
     
  15. Henry

    Henry Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 30, 1998
    Iala

    I do not fully agree with your example.

    We should respect Gypsies's culture but the gypsies have to follow the law of this country too. If every culture is going to use cultural practice as an excuse not to be judge by the law, sooner, it will legal to discriminate women.

    In Japan, man and women are being treated differently, men are always on the top of companies and corporations, and female need to serve tea to male colleagues. (Even if the male and female are counterpart to each other)

    However, in this country, such a practice is illegal.
     
  16. danny

    danny Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 3, 1998
    Selden, New York USA
    One quick word about second chances. Many people out there were in fact given a second chance because they didn't have perfect grades, perfect MCAT. Second chances are why you can prove yourself in Grad School or why you can take the MCAT twice. To the people who are dead set against second chances, the only way you can make it is if NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE IN JUDGEMENT. If you do screw up, are you prepared to suffer the consequences or will you become a hypocrite? Pretty tall order. You have to give each situation a separate judgement. It obviously depends on the specific case on hand.
     
  17. spat

    spat Junior Member

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    Jan 2, 1999
    What is the big deal with Gregory's statements. They are opinion just like yours and mine. He formed it with the information he had (which is what you as a doctor will do) and moved on. I am sure that his opinion has even changed some with the new information. It is not a published article. On a different subject (I posted this story in kevorkian but I thought it might apply here too) here is an issue to look at. At a hospital a patient was seen in the ER with a stab wound to the belly. He was seen by the doctor, stitched up, and sent home. (It was thought to be a superficial wound) The patient later returned to the hospital coding and died. (The wound was internal and the patient bled out into his belly) It was a flat mistake made by the doctor. This mistake killed someone. Should the doctor lose their licence to practice and/or be placed in jail. Someone with a problem that easily could have been fixed came in plenty of time to correct it. This patient was 15yrs old and was not terminally ill. The reality is that we are all human and mistakes can be made. One day (I hope not) this could be me or you. What do you guys think?
     
  18. Henry

    Henry Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 30, 1998
    Hi Danny,

    I understand your point of view. However, getting a bad grades can not be compared with a medical malpractice. As we all know, one medical malpractice may destroy a doctor entire career. I don't think I can afford that lost.

    No matter I am ready for the consequence or not, I have to face the reality of medical errors. In that situation, being given a second chance is a "grace", not a "must".


     

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