Now this is not a public poll so please answer honestly. I'm interested in seeing when the spectre of openly admitting less than altruistic reasons for pursuing medicine is removed, how many of us are actually openly pursuing a paycheck or a lifestyle.

man, where's the "beating a dead horse" smiley when you need one?

Fascinated by the human body was big a few years ago. Thank God the essay writers have become a little more varied.

yes id say the academic challenge needs a place on the poll.

i myself will readily admit that im going into medicine for a combination of all those reasons, the strongest one being the challenge and opportunities for growth (as in research, invention, new ideas techniques, its an ever advancing field, and i need that to hold my interest), and the least being to help others...

You might want to put the old fallback, because my parents wanted me to go. Not on my list of reasons but you never know...

I think the intellectual side of medicine should be on there as well. I put the helping people option but the intellectual side is the reason I'm doing this over, say, a masters in social work. Everything else is just icing on the cake after those two things.

OK, can one of the mods add "Intellectual reasons" and "My parents made me"?

Chicks, money, power, and chicks.

Intellectual challenge/ intellectual curiosity

Versatility

This poll is lacking. There are many reasons one pursues a medical degree including challenge of the field, desire to practice a specific craft (surgeon), degree of independence, intellectual rigor, aspirations for becoming a medical writer or artist. This poll is too limited in scope and captures only the whimsical musings of minors.

Doc Holiday caught my reason pretty well. Of course I want to help others...but that's not really what doctors do directly. They provide a service for a patient and that's that -- though they may develop a relationship over the course of treatment and provide treatment in a warm and friendly manner. If my life was based around helping people, I would have become a social worker.

My personal life philosophy is actually based around overall progression. I love pushing myself to physical and mental limits. That's why being an extreme martial artist in my youth was a goal, and why being a medical doctor(and marathon runner) is the goal that will overshadow my life once I cannot push myself to acrobatic physical limits.

I want to have worked through all the hell medical school students go through, I want to be exposed to the wealth of knowledge they are exposed to, and I wish to disseminate that knowledge as best I can. Medical school and a subsequent career in medicine are certainly goals in our society that you can count on to do just that. Challenge.

So yes, it may be a bit selfish but those are my true reasons. Of course, I'll do my best to help people('cause being nice to people is just downright satisfying, especially when you have the power/status to do so quite easily as a doctor might) by providing treatment in the most kind way I can. Poop.

While my number one reason is helping people, others can play a big factor.

How could you forget easy access to drugs? I know I'm not the only one with that reason as the top choice. ;)

Other: blend of intellectual stimulation and having a tangible impact.

Fascinated by the human body was big a few years ago. Thank God the essay writers have become a little more varied.

:laugh:

After being so heavily involved in the process as an applicant, with such a small part of the overall picture, your viewpoint is so interesting to me. I could sit and listen to admissions reality forever.

I think one of the factors that led me to medicine as a career interest was that I believed it was one thing I would be truly good at and was most interested in. The money, job security, and altruistic reasons definitely played in and narrowed my choice from everything in biology down to medicine. Then, like some stupid little animal distracted by something shiny, I let the Air Force encourage me into entering pilot training. What can I say? It sounded cool at the time.

Now I realize how important it is to make these choices based on what I'm interested in most, what I think I'll be good at (I don't believe I can really know until I'm a doctor, but shadowing, volunteering, and academics have given me the belief that if I work hard I could be a truly good doctor), and what I think will be fulfilling for me.

Does that make any sense?

Oh, and I'm really interested in the human body.

Interesting work, great job security, solid salary, make a diff, versatile degree (MD).

Um, what about constant intellectual stimulation? The main reason I'm going to med school is because I'd rather not do something BORING for the next, oh, 40 years of my life.... seems pretty important.... and also, it affords you endless opportunities to see the world while helpin people out, that's cool too :D

Self-fulfillment. I want a career that will engage me fully, from my intellectual side to my humanity, and where all of my abilities (problem-solving, analysis, communication, kindness + empathy) make a strong impact on individuals' lives.

(right now, I'm thinking of being an oncologist)

The money actually only makes it sort of economically feasible to choose this route for me. My opportunity cost (in my prior career) is $1 mill+ over the time I'm a student. And the lifestyle is a real negative factor (no time with family & friends)...

a_t

Yeah I have no idea why somebody would go into medicine solely for the money. I-banking is the way to go if all you care about is money.

Now this is not a public poll so please answer honestly. I'm interested in seeing when the spectre of openly admitting less than altruistic reasons for pursuing medicine is removed, how many of us are actually openly pursuing a paycheck or a lifestyle.

Man, there are SO many easier, quicker ways to get a much bigger paycheck - why would you be so dumb to waste your time, effort & money? (Not to mention wasting a lot of other people's time, effort and money?) You will be so disappointed when you discover those paychecks aren't what you think they will be today.

Self-fulfillment. I want a career that will engage me fully, from my intellectual side to my humanity, and where all of my abilities (problem-solving, analysis, communication, kindness + empathy) make a strong impact on individuals' lives.

(right now, I'm thinking of being an oncologist)

The money actually only makes it sort of economically feasible to choose this route for me. My opportunity cost (in my prior career) is $1 mill+ over the time I'm a student. And the lifestyle is a real negative factor (no time with family & friends)...

a_t

I second these sentiments!

Chicks, money, power, and chicks.

But since HMOs have made it virtually impossible to make any real money which directly affects the number of chicks who come sniffin' around and don't ask me what tree they're barkin' up because they're sure as hell not pissin' on mine and as far as power goes, well here I am during my free time letting some thirteen-year old psychology fellow who couldn't cut it in real medicine ask me question about my personal life.

But since HMOs have made it virtually impossible to make any real money which directly affects the number of chicks who come sniffin' around and don't ask me what tree they're barkin' up because they're sure as hell not pissin' on mine and as far as power goes, well here I am during my free time letting some thirteen-year old psychology fellow who couldn't cut it in real medicine ask me question about my personal life.

You don't have to actually make good money to get chicks. You just need a job people THINK makes good money to get the chicks. It's all about perception. :D

I know someone who is going into medicine because "it's as good a job as any."

I worry for their sanity.

I worry for their sanity.

Sanity seems to be a general theme in your threads today. Is this a cry for help?

ha ha I actually thought that as I typed it out...

*sniffle*
*tear*
*sob*

I NEED HELP!!




j/k

Man, there are SO many easier, quicker ways to get a much bigger paycheck - why would you be so dumb to waste your time, effort & money? (Not to mention wasting a lot of other people's time, effort and money?) You will be so disappointed when you discover those paychecks aren't what you think they will be today.

I could see why you are saying it would be a waste of time and effort just for the money, and I completely agree. But to say that there are SO many easier, quicker ways to get a much bigger paycheck.... I don't really agree. Although there is law school, most lawyers don't make as much as someone like lets say a Radiologist. Someone could go into business schoool, but how many jobs are there out there that pay $300,000. Becoming an Entrepeneur is a pretty risky business and also involves capital. I am sure that there are a decent amount of jobs out there that pay big cash, but I just don't see how it would be much easier to attain these jobs, and that the time that you would be able to qualify for some of these jobs would be much less time consuming.

I just don't see it being any "easier". However, let me make it clear that I do not support having a top priority of going into medicine for money. Personally I would say that I want to because of several different factors that are all pretty much equal.

I could see why you are saying it would be a waste of time and effort just for the money, and I completely agree. But to say that there are SO many easier, quicker ways to get a much bigger paycheck.... I don't really agree. Although there is law school, most lawyers don't make as much as someone like lets say a Radiologist. Someone could go into business schoool, but how many jobs are there out there that pay $300,000. Becoming an Entrepeneur is a pretty risky business and also involves capital. I am sure that there are a decent amount of jobs out there that pay big cash, but I just don't see how it would be much easier to attain these jobs, and that the time that you would be able to qualify for some of these jobs would be much less time consuming.

I just don't see it being any "easier". However, let me make it clear that I do not support having a top priority of going into medicine for money. Personally I would say that I want to because of several different factors that are all pretty much equal.

:thumbup:

Yup, I don't know why people think money is so easy to come by. Sure, investment banking makes big bucks, but to get there is a pretty intense weeding process that relies a lot on not only academics, intelligence, and hard work, but also presentation and looks (important in i-banking). Very few people, even motivated, intelligent, good-looking people, actually make it to the big bucks in investment banking. Ditto for consulting. (Plus, no one is in I-banking for job satisfaction...) And the lawyers who make big bucks? Also a much smaller slice than you think.

Being a doctor is really one very sure way of making $100+K a year, much surer than almost any other road out there. Of course, it's a long, difficult, and expensive road, but you'll definitely get there, and a lot of people do who would otherwise not make as much in other professions.

Note that I am not advocating becoming a doctor for the $$$. Just that it really isn't easy or guaranteed to make nearly that much money in other professions.

a_t

I could see why you are saying it would be a waste of time and effort just for the money, and I completely agree. But to say that there are SO many easier, quicker ways to get a much bigger paycheck.... I don't really agree. Although there is law school, most lawyers don't make as much as someone like lets say a Radiologist. Someone could go into business schoool, but how many jobs are there out there that pay $300,000. Becoming an Entrepeneur is a pretty risky business and also involves capital. I am sure that there are a decent amount of jobs out there that pay big cash, but I just don't see how it would be much easier to attain these jobs, and that the time that you would be able to qualify for some of these jobs would be much less time consuming.

I just don't see it being any "easier". However, let me make it clear that I do not support having a top priority of going into medicine for money. Personally I would say that I want to because of several different factors that are all pretty much equal.

The reason people going into these other fields will actually be doing better in many cases is because you are neglecting the big kicker -- the time value of money. Law and business schools take fewer years, cost less, and do not obligate one to 3-5 years of low pay training following graduation. Thus someone earning a decent salary, but much lower than a radiologist, will have already banked a lot by the time a radiologist would start earning. And if they invested wisely, they would be way ahead. And also bear in mind that there is no guaranty that you will even get into a competitive field like radiology unless you are in the top of your med school class anyhow (it's not an easy feat - you may find). More likely you will be earning a more modest physicians salary, which is well less than $300k, and the average salary has actually been dropping annually, thanks to HMOs/reimbursements/insurance issues. Thus if you are going into medicine for the money (and I know you said not), you are probably not choosing well. But the salary is certainly comfortable, if you have other more important reasons for choosing such a career.

To get legitimate MD vanity plates for my future car.

I'm not in it for the pay- I'm in it for the lifestyle and the intellectual challenge (I apologize for it not being an option but I was posting this from class and we got surprised with a test as I was finishing this up).

:thumbup:

Yup, I don't know why people think money is so easy to come by. Sure, investment banking makes big bucks, but to get there is a pretty intense weeding process that relies a lot on not only academics, intelligence, and hard work, but also presentation and looks (important in i-banking). Very few people, even motivated, intelligent, good-looking people, actually make it to the big bucks in investment banking. Ditto for consulting. (Plus, no one is in I-banking for job satisfaction...) And the lawyers who make big bucks? Also a much smaller slice than you think.

Being a doctor is really one very sure way of making $100+K a year, much surer than almost any other road out there. Of course, it's a long, difficult, and expensive road, but you'll definitely get there, and a lot of people do who would otherwise not make as much in other professions.

Note that I am not advocating becoming a doctor for the $$$. Just that it really isn't easy or guaranteed to make nearly that much money in other professions.

a_t

Spoken like a couple of people that haven't researched a whole lot of options out there, but go by what the perceptions are, but maybe you're younger. I shouldn't have said a LOT more money, but I think Law2Doc says it better than I did.

Hi there,
I have very little money, no power, no prestige and one fiance who was around before medical school or the interest in medicine. I do LOVE performing surgery and of course, one has to go to medical school to be a surgeon. As long as my Toyota holds out and I can operate, I am totally happy.

I do not expect to make tons of money but I will be able to live indoors. There is little prestige in what I do or will eventually do, that is taking care of dead, diabetic feet and creating hemodialysis fistulas but for me, what I do is a blast every day. I love the fact that I can walk into the ED, open a chest and actually know what to do and fix the problem. No power but exceptionally good training.

To all those people who are looking for a steady paycheck: Forget it. Reimbursements are in the toilet and malpractice premiums are soaring. There are much easier ways to make more money and faster ways to make money. Look at Donald Trump for heaven's sake.

If you are thinking that you can get the Benz, the country-club life, think again. There are very few people making huge amounts of money in medicine these days and by the time most of today's pre-meds finish, the money will be even less. Medicine is very, very difficult to do well and to those who believe that they can do the bare minimum and get by, wrong!

Do medicine because you LOVE what you do and for no other reason. Even if I never earned a paycheck, I would find something else to do so that I could support my surgery habit. ;)

njbmd :)

OK, can one of the mods add "Intellectual reasons" and "My parents made me"?done. :)

I'm with njbmd. I picked my path because I wanted to do something I'd enjoy everyday.

To all those people who are looking for a steady paycheck: Forget it. Reimbursements are in the toilet and malpractice premiums are soaring. There are much easier ways to make more money and faster ways to make money. Look at Donald Trump for heaven's sake.

If you are thinking that you can get the Benz, the country-club life, think again. There are very few people making huge amounts of money in medicine these days and by the time most of today's pre-meds finish, the money will be even less. Medicine is very, very difficult to do well and to those who believe that they can do the bare minimum and get by, wrong!

Do medicine because you LOVE what you do and for no other reason. Even if I never earned a paycheck, I would find something else to do so that I could support my surgery habit. ;)

njbmd :)

Dude. I work much more than 40 hours per week (sometimes I do 24 in a day), risk my life, do constantly shifting shiftwork, am educated, highly-skilled, and constantly tested on that skill, I live in conditions ranging from home (best) to foreign hotels of various qualities to tents in the desert. I make somewhere between 50-80K, much of it tax free due to constant combat zone tax exclusions. I consider that much more than a steady paycheck, yet I will make much more if I get to be a military doctor and civilian doctors (depending of course on specialty) make much more than military docs after residency. How do you not consider a doctor's income "steady"?

The reason people going into these other fields will actually be doing better in many cases is because you are neglecting the big kicker -- the time value of money. Law and business schools take fewer years, cost less, and do not obligate one to 3-5 years of low pay training following graduation. Thus someone earning a decent salary, but much lower than a radiologist, will have already banked a lot by the time a radiologist would start earning. And if they invested wisely, they would be way ahead. And also bear in mind that there is no guaranty that you will even get into a competitive field like radiology unless you are in the top of your med school class anyhow (it's not an easy feat - you may find). More likely you will be earning a more modest physicians salary, which is well less than $300k, and the average salary has actually been dropping annually, thanks to HMOs/reimbursements/insurance issues. Thus if you are going into medicine for the money (and I know you said not), you are probably not choosing well. But the salary is certainly comfortable, if you have other more important reasons for choosing such a career.

It's true that a doctor's training period and tuition expenses are far higher than a lawyer or business school'ers. So I decided to put together a little spreadsheet to model law and medical school student net worth over the years. My assumptions:

$35K tuition/year for med school, $20K/year for law school.
3 years law school, 4 years med school.
Average beginning lawyer's salary: $80K, linearly progressing to $140K over 30 years (from salary.com, Attorney I -> Attorney III)
Residency Salaries (MD): $40K, $44K, $48K (3 year residency)
Post Residency Salary: $140K FIXED (no increases ever)
Future cash discount value: 7% (so debts accrue interest, positive net worth is invested)
Law students make $15K a summer between years of law school.

From these, I calculated net worth per year. The results? Of course, the lawyer is ahead initially, but they break even at year 23 (e.g. if starting grad school at age 22, at age 45), and the doctor pulls ahead thereafter.

Note that I chose a physician salary that is on the low end ($140K), with absolutely no increase (or even adjusting for inflation). If I change the fixed physician salary to $160K (probably a little better average), the physician beats the lawyer by year 15 (e.g. age 37), and pulls away thereafter.

Conclusion? Even with higher costs of tuition, more years of school, and low-paid training years, the vast majority of doctors do better than lawyers, who are already some of the highest paid professionals in the country. Note that this is simply looking at the situation financially, with no accounting for the costs of # of hours of effort put in, friends/family time sacrificed, etc..

If anyone wants the spreadsheet, let me know.

Spoken like a couple of people that haven't researched a whole lot of options out there, but go by what the perceptions are, but maybe you're younger. I shouldn't have said a LOT more money, but I think Law2Doc says it better than I did.

Care to give some examples of options? Sounds like you know lots of them...

OP -- sorry for hijacking the post... :o

a_t

Hi there,
I have very little money, no power, no prestige and one fiance who was around before medical school or the interest in medicine. I do LOVE performing surgery and of course, one has to go to medical school to be a surgeon. As long as my Toyota holds out and I can operate, I am totally happy.

I do not expect to make tons of money but I will be able to live indoors. There is little prestige in what I do or will eventually do, that is taking care of dead, diabetic feet and creating hemodialysis fistulas but for me, what I do is a blast every day. I love the fact that I can walk into the ED, open a chest and actually know what to do and fix the problem. No power but exceptionally good training.

To all those people who are looking for a steady paycheck: Forget it. Reimbursements are in the toilet and malpractice premiums are soaring. There are much easier ways to make more money and faster ways to make money. Look at Donald Trump for heaven's sake.

Er... Donald Trump?? How many Donald Trumps do you know of out there? vs. how many are trying to be like him?

Point being, pointing to Donald Trump as an example of an easier and faster way to make money is like pointing to some schmoe who won the lottery and saying,"See?? See?? There are better and faster ways to make money!" Even putting aside skepticism about how much the Trump is REALLY worth, the chances of anyone duplicating his feats and making tons of money is really really low. On the other hand, what are the chances you will be making $140K+ on a steady basis for many years after getting into medical school? Pretty good. Your EXPECTED income is far higher as a doctor than as a real estate speculator and developer (EXPECTED income = sum of all (probability of income * amt of income)).

If you are thinking that you can get the Benz, the country-club life, think again. There are very few people making huge amounts of money in medicine these days and by the time most of today's pre-meds finish, the money will be even less. Medicine is very, very difficult to do well and to those who believe that they can do the bare minimum and get by, wrong!

Do medicine because you LOVE what you do and for no other reason. Even if I never earned a paycheck, I would find something else to do so that I could support my surgery habit. ;)

njbmd :)

Agreed about doing medicine if that is what you love. :thumbup: There's too much sacrifice involved in life, relationships, and time to do this simply for the money.

But, njbmd, I doubt in 10 years you'll still be driving that Toyota out of necessity rather than choice. :laugh:

Cheers,

a_t

But, njbmd, I doubt in 10 years you'll still be driving that Toyota out of necessity rather than choice. :laugh:

Cheers,

a_t

I'd guess that unless you have some unusual expenses (a ton of kids, supporting parents) you could buy a new car your first year out of residency. In cash if you decided. What would it be like to jump from 30-40K to 100-200K in a year? :laugh:

It's true that a doctor's training period and tuition expenses are far higher than a lawyer or business school'ers. So I decided to put together a little spreadsheet to model law and medical school student net worth over the years. My assumptions:

$35K tuition/year for med school, $20K/year for law school.
3 years law school, 4 years med school.
Average beginning lawyer's salary: $80K, linearly progressing to $140K over 30 years (from salary.com, Attorney I -> Attorney III)
Residency Salaries (MD): $40K, $44K, $48K (3 year residency)
Post Residency Salary: $140K FIXED (no increases ever)
Future cash discount value: 7% (so debts accrue interest, positive net worth is invested)
Law students make $15K a summer between years of law school.

From these, I calculated net worth per year. The results? Of course, the lawyer is ahead initially, but they break even at year 23 (e.g. if starting grad school at age 22, at age 45), and the doctor pulls ahead thereafter.

Note that I chose a physician salary that is on the low end ($140K), with absolutely no increase (or even adjusting for inflation). If I change the fixed physician salary to $160K (probably a little better average), the physician beats the lawyer by year 15 (e.g. age 37), and pulls away thereafter.

Conclusion? Even with higher costs of tuition, more years of school, and low-paid training years, the vast majority of doctors do better than lawyers, who are already some of the highest paid professionals in the country. Note that this is simply looking at the situation financially, with no accounting for the costs of # of hours of effort put in, friends/family time sacrificed, etc..

If anyone wants the spreadsheet, let me know.



Care to give some examples of options? Sounds like you know lots of them...

OP -- sorry for hijacking the post... :o

a_t

The flaw in your theory is that the people who have grades equivalent to that required to get into med school get into top 25 law schools. Those people in turn have an average starting salary much higher than you list, and in my experience will get to a much much higher maximum law salary than $140k. In fact, those that go to work for big firms in big cities will START at about $140k, and may max out at anywhere from 3-10 times that. (Most of my peers who did the big firm route (in a second tier city) started at over $125k and that was quite a few years back). Most raises in law tend to be in the 10% range annually (assuming no special performance, no major cases, no partnership, small book of business), so you can do the math and see where someone very average would end up over time getting step increases. There are also annual bonuses at most places but we can probably ignore those and still prove my point. Thus I suspect even being conservative with those numbers (i.e. having them start at $125k and max out over the course of their career at $350k-$400k, a more realistic but quite conservative number for a top school candidate), you will end up with the doctor never catching up. So sure, if you compare the AVERAGE lawyer (floundering in college with a B-) to doctor (coming out of college with a B+) the doctor will eventually catch up -- law schools take people with much lower GPAs and credentials because there are so many law schools compared to med schools, and the number of students in a typical law school is greater than med school, and a lot end up not passing the bar, taking low salary jobs as a result, pulling down the average. It's a different kind of profession as schools let the bar exam be the gate keeper, while med schools, which hardly ever fail anybody out, generally try to make their cuts prior to admission. But if you compare the person with the GPA high enough that he/she truly has the option to do either career, I think you will find that that person has more lucrative options outside of medicine. (Not that that person necessarilly is skilled at some of the things that make one eg a good lawyer, but coming from better schools with higher scores already gets you the job that is above average, and much of any profession is having a good brain). This exact point (that the caliber of person going to med school would tend to be smart enough to do much better in law or other fields) was raised in a recent (last year) article in the New Yorker by Atul Gawande on medical salaries -- you might be able to find it floating around on SDN if you are interested. He too focused on the fact that someone with med school caliber credentials would not be average in these other professions. So I stand by my hypothesis -- that person who has the option of and grades/scores necessary to go to med school or law school can certainly make more $ in law if that is his desire.

It's the ONLY way to be a pathologist and find a cure for a cancer at the same time! ;)

to summarize/add law2doc:

1) median salary for lawyers would be higher for students who could get into the top 25 (the top 14 wouldnt be too difficult either which ALL start off with a ~125k salary)

2) Also, some students take out a judicial clerkship (paid like a residency). And afterwards, they get paid even more (depending on who you clerked for).

In other words, the top 25 pay at a median of ~90k with benefits (health/dental/etc which arent taken into account when people post salary info). If you have the numbers for med school, choosing a law school would give you a higher salary and faster.

Anyone do a TVM and future value of doing a MD/PhD vs. MD?

That is my project for the upcoming break.

Brett do you know where I could find info on the income of academic affiliated docs? I have never seen that data.

Some sort of 2d or 3d plot would work better for such a poll. One where we could give each reason its percentage and the java would plot the point. It's futile to assume a single reason for pursuing medicine.

Brett do you know where I could find info on the income of academic affiliated docs? I have never seen that data.
Im sure you could look for some job listings.

I was talking about how the economics work out for doing MD/PhD vs. MD and where the break even point would come.

I have to say that all of those reasons are good reasons to be in the medical field, as a combination of some or all and not just about money. But there isn't one pre-med or medical student who isn't comforted by the fact that some day, they will have a nice cushion of money with which to take care of thier families!

The flaw in your theory is that the people who have grades equivalent to that required to get into med school get into top 25 law schools. Those people in turn have an average starting salary much higher than you list, and in my experience will get to a much much higher maximum law salary than $140k. In fact, those that go to work for big firms in big cities will START at about $140k, and may max out at anywhere from 3-10 times that. (Most of my peers who did the big firm route (in a second tier city) started at over $125k and that was quite a few years back). Most raises in law tend to be in the 10% range annually (assuming no special performance, no major cases, no partnership, small book of business), so you can do the math and see where someone very average would end up over time getting step increases. There are also annual bonuses at most places but we can probably ignore those and still prove my point. Thus I suspect even being conservative with those numbers (i.e. having them start at $125k and max out over the course of their career at $350k-$400k, a more realistic but quite conservative number for a top school candidate), you will end up with the doctor never catching up. So sure, if you compare the AVERAGE lawyer (floundering in college with a B-) to doctor (coming out of college with a B+) the doctor will eventually catch up -- law schools take people with much lower GPAs and credentials because there are so many law schools compared to med schools, and the number of students in a typical law school is greater than med school, and a lot end up not passing the bar, taking low salary jobs as a result, pulling down the average. It's a different kind of profession as schools let the bar exam be the gate keeper, while med schools, which hardly ever fail anybody out, generally try to make their cuts prior to admission. But if you compare the person with the GPA high enough that he/she truly has the option to do either career, I think you will find that that person has more lucrative options outside of medicine. (Not that that person necessarilly is skilled at some of the things that make one eg a good lawyer, but coming from better schools with higher scores already gets you the job that is above average, and much of any profession is having a good brain). This exact point (that the caliber of person going to med school would tend to be smart enough to do much better in law or other fields) was raised in a recent (last year) article in the New Yorker by Atul Gawande on medical salaries -- you might be able to find it floating around on SDN if you are interested. He too focused on the fact that someone with med school caliber credentials would not be average in these other professions. So I stand by my hypothesis -- that person who has the option of and grades/scores necessary to go to med school or law school can certainly make more $ in law if that is his desire.


I think the above comments are true, and if money were my number one priority, I probably would pursue law or maybe something in business or finance. Problem is, I just can't get excited about those fields. On the other hand, I love learning about medicine and watching it in action. Hopefully I'll enjoy doing it too. Also, I'll probably never be rich, but back-of-the-envelope calculations (actually Excel spreadsheet calculations) suggest that, in the long run (say, 15 years), I'll be better off than I would be if I just stayed in my current career.

x

I wanna slap the people who are doing it because their parents made them

If they are that fearfully compliant of their parents wishes, they probably have been slapped a few times already while growing up.

It's true that a doctor's training period and tuition expenses are far higher than a lawyer or business school'ers.

Care to give some examples of options? Sounds like you know lots of them...



Sure, I will do a little homework for you.
Firstly, a person can work in any (not every, but many) companies for long enough and be making way more than the average physician, and this person may not have even gone to college, so there was very little time & expense to get to that point.
Secondly, if a person has any type of talent in the entertainment field, or sports, we all know the kind of money these people make, from a very early age, and again, a college degree is not even required much of the time.
Example, the starting salary for a major US Orchestra is around $100k. Usually getting into an orchestra requires a certain amount of training, say, 4 years of undergrad, but if a person has enough talent, not even that.

- computer programmer
- computer programmer (consultant) - they are making $120+ a year
- PA can potentially make more then a general physician simply because there is less time/expense in getting there. Don't laugh - research it. And by that I mean more than a google search.
- Having a landscaping business - I was quoted $1800 just to cut down 2 trees and trim 2 others
- Having a construction business
- Most trades like plumbing, electrician, etc.
- Law (already discussed)

Look, the point is if a person is under some illusion that they are going to make a ton of money and that is their motivation for becoming a doctor, they are going to be sorely disappointed when they get there. My suggestion still is that if that is the case for someone, they consider that there are far easier ways to accomplish the goal of making a ton of money - that was it.

Sure, I will do a little homework for you.
Firstly, a person can work in any (not every, but many) companies for long enough and be making way more than the average physician, and this person may not have even gone to college, so there was very little time & expense to get to that point.
Secondly, if a person has any type of talent in the entertainment field, or sports, we all know the kind of money these people make, from a very early age, and again, a college degree is not even required much of the time.
Example, the starting salary for a major US Orchestra is around $100k. Usually getting into an orchestra requires a certain amount of training, say, 4 years of undergrad, but if a person has enough talent, not even that.

- computer programmer
- computer programmer (consultant) - they are making $120+ a year
- PA can potentially make more then a general physician simply because there is less time/expense in getting there. Don't laugh - research it. And by that I mean more than a google search.
- Having a landscaping business - I was quoted $1800 just to cut down 2 trees and trim 2 others
- Having a construction business
- Most trades like plumbing, electrician, etc.
- Law (already discussed)

Look, the point is if a person is under some illusion that they are going to make a ton of money and that is their motivation for becoming a doctor, they are going to be sorely disappointed when they get there. My suggestion still is that if that is the case for someone, they consider that there are far easier ways to accomplish the goal of making a ton of money - that was it.

I second the plumber option -- having recently dealt with one, I have to say they charge at least as much, if not more, per hour than many attorneys. You might also add to your list luxury car mechanics and real estate developers.

Sure, I will do a little homework for you.
Firstly, a person can work in any (not every, but many) companies for long enough and be making way more than the average physician, and this person may not have even gone to college, so there was very little time & expense to get to that point.
Secondly, if a person has any type of talent in the entertainment field, or sports, we all know the kind of money these people make, from a very early age, and again, a college degree is not even required much of the time.
Example, the starting salary for a major US Orchestra is around $100k. Usually getting into an orchestra requires a certain amount of training, say, 4 years of undergrad, but if a person has enough talent, not even that.

- computer programmer
- computer programmer (consultant) - they are making $120+ a year
- PA can potentially make more then a general physician simply because there is less time/expense in getting there. Don't laugh - research it. And by that I mean more than a google search.
- Having a landscaping business - I was quoted $1800 just to cut down 2 trees and trim 2 others
- Having a construction business
- Most trades like plumbing, electrician, etc.
- Law (already discussed)

Look, the point is if a person is under some illusion that they are going to make a ton of money and that is their motivation for becoming a doctor, they are going to be sorely disappointed when they get there. My suggestion still is that if that is the case for someone, they consider that there are far easier ways to accomplish the goal of making a ton of money - that was it.

hmmm, if you are trying to call the salaries/earning potentials of these vocations on your list, similar to a doctor's, I have a qualm or two.

Computer programming? In my experience you will be lucky to make over 40k when you start. You think plumbers, electricians, etc... make comparable wealth?

Doctors are always in demand, and are highly skilled. They will always make their "fair share" of dough. Their salaries will always be competitive.

hmmm, if you are trying to call the salaries/earning potentials of these vocations on your list, similar to a doctor's, I have a qualm or two.

Computer programming? In my experience you will be lucky to make over 40k when you start. You think plumbers, electricians, etc... make comparable wealth?

Doctors are always in demand, and are highly skilled. They will always make their "fair share" of dough. Their salaries will always be competitive.

No you are missing the point. You don't need to receive a comparable salary to do better if you start earning 7-10 years earlier, don't assume $100k+ in debt, and invest in a steady return investment. Thus a plumber who owns his own business and pulls in a decent salary right out of high school can often certainly net more over a lifetime than the average doc. Sounds wrong, I know. But you can do the math.

No you are missing the point. You don't need to receive a comparable salary to do better if you start earning 7-10 years earlier, don't assume $100k+ in debt, and invest in a steady return investment. Thus a plumber who owns his own business and pulls in a decent salary right out of high school can often certainly net more over a lifetime than the average doc. Sounds wrong, I know. But you can do the math.

Ever tried? It doesn't work that way. You don't open a business and magically bring home $50,000 that same year. You also have to have an income before you can get any financing to startup a business. Even the SBA won't finance just a business plan.

Also, it can take a sole proprietor years upon years to grow his business large enough to make his TAKE HOME $50,000.

I've worked in these vocational fields, so I have a pretty good idea what goes on.

Anyone who thinks a plumber makes more than a doctor over his lifetime is out of touch with reality.

Your cumulative wealth also doesn't matter as much as your buying power. Guy A who makes $1,000,000 over the course of 50 years cannot buy as much as Guy B who makes $1,000,000 over the course of 10.

It's a crude example that does not consider pay increases, but when you finance stuff, you're essentially financing your personal cash flow against outstanding liabilities (debt to income). Ergo, a $100,000 income can buy a hell of alot more than a $20,000 one.

To be honest, though, the best money is in adult entertainment. Yes, I was in this industry for awhile (not as a performer!) and the money is crazy. I helped a friend get started back in 2002 and he already makes more than any primary care doc ($165,000 last year). Do that if you want easy money.

Ever tried? It doesn't work that way. You don't open a business and magically bring home $50,000 a year. It can take a sole proprietor years upon years to grow his business large enough to make his TAKE HOME $50,000.

I've worked in these vocational fields, so I have a pretty good idea what goes on.

Anyone who thinks a plumber makes more than a doctor over his lifetime is out of touch with reality.

FYI yes I've run my own business. And as an attorney I've done work for a number of mom & pop plumbing businesses which certainly generate more income than I expect to see as a physician. Not saying it isn't hard. Just saying it has certainly been done.

Ever tried? It doesn't work that way. You don't open a business and magically bring home $50,000 that same year. It can take a sole proprietor years upon years to grow his business large enough to make his TAKE HOME $50,000.

I've worked in these vocational fields, so I have a pretty good idea what goes on.

Anyone who thinks a plumber makes more than a doctor over his lifetime is out of touch with reality.

Your cumulative wealth also doesn't matter as much as your buying power. Guy A who makes $1,000,000 over the course of 50 years cannot buy as much as Guy B who makes $1,000,000 over the course of 10.

It's a crude example that does not consider pay increases, but when you finance stuff, you're essentially financing your personal cash flow against outstanding liabilities (debt to income). Ergo, a $100,000 income can buy a hell of alot more than a $20,000 one.

I don't follow your cumulative wealth vs buying power argument. Someone who starts investing money in year one will have more money in year 10 then someone who starts earning in year 10. Thus the first guy has more buying power. Money is fungible and can be made to grow over time.

I don't follow your cumulative wealth vs buying power argument. Someone who starts investing money in year one will have more money in year 10 then someone who starts earning in year 10. Thus the first guy has more buying power. Money is fungible and can be made to grow over time.


A) Not if the income difference is substantial enough. It depends upon how much the lower-income person invests. Someone with a low income cannot feasibly afford to invest a lot of money, probably not of a sufficient amount to overcome the future income/investments of a physician.

B) Most people making $30k-$40k probably do not invest a whole lot of money.

FYI yes I've run my own business. And as an attorney I've done work for a number of mom & pop plumbing businesses which certainly generate more income than I expect to see as a physician

Income or profit?

Income or profit?

Both. (actually your distinction should have been revenue versus profit -- the term income is usually a net - or at least thats how I've been using it).

A) Not if the income difference is substantial enough. It depends upon how much the lower-income person invests. Someone with a low income cannot feasibly afford to invest a lot of money, probably not of a sufficient amount to overcome the future income/investments of a physician.

B) Most people making $30k-$40k probably do not invest a whole lot of money.

I don't think we were talking about people earning $30-40k. At least I wasn't. The discussion was about people earning decent money. I agree with you that if someone is earning less than 6 digits, an MD will ultimately catch up. Another poster raised plumber/electrician, and I certainly know a number who earn a ton. Not all do. But lots of professions (including some blue collar ones) provide opportunities for folks to get to this level significantly early enough that an MD wouldn't catch up.

I don't think we were talking about people earning $30-40k. At least I wasn't. The discussion was about people earning decent money. I agree with you that if someone is earning less than 6 digits, an MD will ultimately catch up. Another poster raised plumber/electrician, and I certainly know a number who earn a ton. Not all do. But lots of professions (including some blue collar ones) provide opportunities for folks to get to this level significantly early enough that an MD wouldn't catch up.

Yeah it happens, just like my porn example. My first week in "the biz" I made $500. I was up to $4000 a mo before I got out of college. As I said, my friend who kept going when I was on a hiatus is now making six-figures. Had I stayed in, I would be up there with him -- no primary care doc would ever catch up.

However, your example isn't the norm, which I believe it what most refer to.

Yeah it happens, just like my porn example. My first week in "the biz" I made $500. I was up to $4000 a mo before I got out of college. As I said, my friend who kept going when I was on a hiatus is now making six-figures. Had I stayed in, I would be up there with him -- no primary care doc would ever catch up.

However, your example isn't the norm, which I believe it what most refer to.

Fair enough. But the point has been made that if one is going into medicine for the money, he/she is missing the boat.

Fair enough. But the point has been made that if one is going into medicine for the money, he/she is missing the boat.

I would say if one is going into medicine ONLY for the money....

If you're going into medicine because medicine turns you on AND you want to make a good living (relatively high, steady income), then medicine is a good choice.

Fair enough. But the point has been made that if one is going into medicine for the money, he/she is missing the boat.

Yes, that is the point, thanks for the reminder and useful perspectives.
I think they are more effective than mine.
I'm just trying to say that a lot of younger people go into medicine not really understanding that the money is not what they think it is going to be. And not to just brush those comments aside like they won't apply to you. Find out before you make a mistake - that is, IF you are chasing wealth. If not, then it doesn't matter to you anyway!

Yes, that is the point, thanks for the reminder and useful perspectives.
I think they are more effective than mine.
I'm just trying to say that a lot of younger people go into medicine not really understanding that the money is not what they think it is going to be. And not to just brush those comments aside like they won't apply to you. Find out before you make a mistake - that is, IF you are chasing wealth. If not, then it doesn't matter to you anyway!

I already know I'm taking a pay cut to go this route. You are preaching to the converted.

I already know I'm taking a pay cut to go this route. You are preaching to the converted.

Yup - I can tell! By the way, why are so many lawyers miserable with their choice to become lawyers? Just curious to hear an insider's point of view.

Yup - I can tell! By the way, why are so many lawyers miserable with their choice to become lawyers? Just curious to hear an insider's point of view.

Lots of lawyers I know are actually happy with their lot. Some of the big firm types suffer burn out though.

No you are missing the point. You don't need to receive a comparable salary to do better if you start earning 7-10 years earlier, don't assume $100k+ in debt, and invest in a steady return investment. Thus a plumber who owns his own business and pulls in a decent salary right out of high school can often certainly net more over a lifetime than the average doc. Sounds wrong, I know. But you can do the math.

Much easier said than done bro. Sure you can become rich if you have luck and smarts on your side, but few plumbers live like doctors do, period. As JDK pointed out, you can make hella $$$ doing almost anything-- but to say that a 7-10 year jumpstart will make you as wealthy as a doctor is a bit out there. If you are only talking about "netting more over a lifetime," as previous posters stated, that doesn't correlate so well with wealth.

Sure, I think anyone who believes that money will solve all their problems is missing the boat. But people who thing doctors live like plumbers do, and that plumbers live like doctors do, are missing the boat as well.

Much easier said than done bro. Sure you can become rich if you have luck and smarts on your side, but few plumbers live like doctors do, period. As JDK pointed out, you can make hella $$$ doing almost anything-- but to say that a 7-10 year jumpstart will make you as wealthy as a doctor is a bit out there. If you are only talking about "netting more over a lifetime," as previous posters stated, that doesn't correlate so well with wealth.

Sure, I think anyone who believes that money will solve all their problems is missing the boat. But people who thing doctors live like plumbers do, and that plumbers live like doctors do, are missing the boat as well.

Again, I happen to know some plumbers who live better than most doctors. But I concede that they are not the average. We have already addressed in the discussion about lawyers above that when you extrapolate into other professions, you really need to take into account that you are assuming comparable "smarts", i.e. that we are talking about an individual who has a choice of med school or not, not the average. But yes, a lifetime of good income invested wisely does in fact correlate with wealth better than a high salary started later.

Sure, I think anyone who believes that money will solve all their problems is missing the boat. But people who thing doctors live like plumbers do, and that plumbers live like doctors do, are missing the boat as well.

Okay, I grew up in one of the country's wealthiest communities. Sure, there were (and are) a number of physicians in the community, but there were far more CEO's, CFO's, plumbers (yes), lawyers, psychologists, entertainers, chemists, entrepreneurs, small business owners, you name it.
My dad left high school at 15 and worked as an auto mechanic from that point on b/c his father died & my dad needed to support his mom & 3 siblings. Okay? That is all he had to keep doing to be living as well off as those doctors, lawyers, etc., etc....

BTW, auto makers are currently taking recent college graduates through a short technician training program and they start out with salaries in the 6 figures.

I don't think we were talking about people earning $30-40k. At least I wasn't. The discussion was about people earning decent money. I agree with you that if someone is earning less than 6 digits, an MD will ultimately catch up. Another poster raised plumber/electrician, and I certainly know a number who earn a ton. Not all do. But lots of professions (including some blue collar ones) provide opportunities for folks to get to this level significantly early enough that an MD wouldn't catch up.

And I just want to add 2 more to the list: beekeepers & violin makers. Did we mention acupunturists & chiropractors? No, not all of them. But I know many whose schedules are overfull, they don't take insurance and they charge a small fortune for a visit. I like the beekeepers & violin makers better though - sounds like more fun.

the lifestyle.. and security, financially.

intellectual reasons actually. im really interested in genetics, but i dont want to do a phd or a masters. no benchwork or grants. after intellectual reasons, job security. its nice knowing youre pretty safe from booms/busts and employer/consumer whims. a doc never has to run around knocking on doors with a resume.

Now this is not a public poll so please answer honestly. I'm interested in seeing when the spectre of openly admitting less than altruistic reasons for pursuing medicine is removed, how many of us are actually openly pursuing a paycheck or a lifestyle.

frankly, based on two decades of volunteer work with premeds (i ran 3 public health clinics, directly supervised premeds on a daily basis, wrote hundreds of letters of recommendation), i'd say that money, prestige, and "my parents want me to be a doctor" rank significantly higher than this poll shows. many premeds are wary of revealing their true intentions, lest they appear less than altruistic to their colleagues, their professors who will write them lettes of recommendation, the doctors they are shadowing, and ultimately to the admission committees of medical schools. and med schools know this.

yes, there are genuinely altruistic premeds, but there are fewer of them than what statistics show.

i wonder how many premeds would be pursuing medicine if it payed a pittance, had moderate or little prestige, and little other social and monetary benefits, but, if these things were true, then their parents would not be pushing them to be a doctor.

i decided to try to be a doctor because i was tired of seeing all the homeless and working poor lined up outside my clinic, and wondering why there aren't more doctors working with the truly needy.

Enough of the "I know rich plumbers" arguments. You'd think a bunch of pre-meds would know better than to use anecdotal evidence when discussing a bell-curve-type distribution. Yes, there are rich plumbers, and auto mechanics, and accountants. If you think it's easy to hop into auto repair, say, and make six figures, I suggest you try it.

Meanwhile, the only reasonable way to argue this point is with real salary data, meaning medians and averages (opportunity costs and tuition are also part of the picture). And this data shows that physicians get a sweet deal.

According to salary.com, a master plumber earns a median base salary of $47,959. And for you trust fund babies out there, just because it is a blue-collar job does not mean you will be doing it with six months of training. Becoming a senior plumber takes about as long as becoming an attending physician -- and your mistakes are only marginally less expensive and a lot harder to conceal.

An "Automotive Mechanic III" (high school grad., at least four years experience, probably multiple certifications) working in the United States earns a median base salary of $47,892.

An attorney with 5-8 years of experience earns a median base of $139,756.

Real Estate Manager with at least 5 years' experience: $88,728.

Physicians(median fr. salary.com):

Family practice -- $146,936

EM -- $199,908

Peds -- $139,940

General Surgey -- $245,002

Geriatrics -- $149,186

Internal Medicine -- $146,619

etc. (http://secure.salary.com/jobvaluationreport/docs/jobvaluationreport/jobsellhtmls/Physician-Internal-Medicine-salary-job-description.html)

I think it's a pretty stunning deal, myself, even though money is not my primary reason for wanting to do it. But if we want to argue the point, let's argue from numbers rather than from anecdote.

Enough of the "I know rich plumbers" arguments. You'd think a bunch of pre-meds would know better than to use anecdotal evidence when discussing a bell-curve-type distribution. Yes, there are rich plumbers, and auto mechanics, and accountants. If you think it's easy to hop into auto repair, say, and make six figures, I suggest you try it.

Meanwhile, the only reasonable way to argue this point is with real salary data, meaning medians and averages (opportunity costs and tuition are also part of the picture). And this data shows that physicians get a sweet deal.

According to salary.com, a master plumber earns a median base salary of $47,959. And for you trust fund babies out there, just because it is a blue-collar job does not mean you will be doing it with six months of training. Becoming a senior plumber takes about as long as becoming an attending physician -- and your mistakes are only marginally less expensive and a lot harder to conceal.

An "Automotive Mechanic III" (high school grad., at least four years experience, probably multiple certifications) working in the United States earns a median base salary of $47,892.

An attorney with 5-8 years of experience earns a median base of $139,756.

Real Estate Manager with at least 5 years' experience: $88,728.

Physicians(median fr. salary.com):

Family practice -- $146,936

EM -- $199,908

Peds -- $139,940

General Surgey -- $245,002

Geriatrics -- $149,186

Internal Medicine -- $146,619

etc. (http://secure.salary.com/jobvaluationreport/docs/jobvaluationreport/jobsellhtmls/Physician-Internal-Medicine-salary-job-description.html)

I think it's a pretty stunning deal, myself, even though money is not my primary reason for wanting to do it. But if we want to argue the point, let's argue from numbers rather than from anecdote.a good post

Becoming a Marine Officer was a challenge, now I'm ready to move on to the next mountain. I actually sat around as I am nearing on my End of Active Service and thought to myself, "What would be the most challenging thing that I could do after I get out?" I have a weak background in science and utterly detest mathematics, so trying to get into a post-bacc and going to med-school came naturally to me. ;)

dont forget, physicians arent being compensated as fast as their costs are rising. so if you want money, go to Wall Street and not medicine.

dont forget, physicians arent being compensated as fast as their costs are rising. so if you want money, go to Wall Street and not medicine.

Or go into medicine and invest your earnings in Wall Street.

Or go into medicine and invest your earnings in Wall Street.
Indeed.

Enough of the "I know rich plumbers" arguments. You'd think a bunch of pre-meds would know better than to use anecdotal evidence when discussing a bell-curve-type distribution. Yes, there are rich plumbers, and auto mechanics, and accountants. If you think it's easy to hop into auto repair, say, and make six figures, I suggest you try it.

Meanwhile, the only reasonable way to argue this point is with real salary data, meaning medians and averages (opportunity costs and tuition are also part of the picture). And this data shows that physicians get a sweet deal.

An attorney with 5-8 years of experience earns a median base of $139,756.

Physicians(median fr. salary.com):

Family practice -- $146,936

EM -- $199,908

Peds -- $139,940

General Surgey -- $245,002

Geriatrics -- $149,186

Internal Medicine -- $146,619

etc. (http://secure.salary.com/jobvaluationreport/docs/jobvaluationreport/jobsellhtmls/Physician-Internal-Medicine-salary-job-description.html)

I think it's a pretty stunning deal, myself, even though money is not my primary reason for wanting to do it. But if we want to argue the point, let's argue from numbers rather than from anecdote.

While your averages for the medical profession look accurate, I continue to dispute the notion that you can use straight averages to compare across professions -- someone who got A's in college such that he could get into med school will simply not end up at the average law school (where the average matriculant GPA is far lower). This point was referenced in passing in the Atul Gawande article in the New Yorker.
Thus if you really want to compare what someone in medicine would make as compared to what THAT SAME PERSON might make in another profession, you need a comparably weighted average, such that you must compare med schools graduates with something like the top quarter of the law schools' graduates, not the average lawyer. Someone who sneaked in at a low end law school and got barely passing grades is going to pull the average down a ton when he takes his $20k/year legal aid job, and that is really not what we are talking about.
So in fact, the attorney with the numbers to get into med school hardly only makes $139,756 five years out of law school. Folks who graduate college with high grades and get into top quarter law schools will START at a figure close to that, and will be making significantly higher 5 years out (and have a lot less debt to boot). But otherwise, I agree with you -- medicine types do fine.

While your averages for the medical profession look accurate, I continue to dispute the notion that you can use straight averages to compare across professions -- someone who got A's in college such that he could get into med school will simply not end up at the average law school (where the average matriculant GPA is far lower). This point was referenced in passing in the Atul Gawande article in the New Yorker.
Thus if you really want to compare what someone in medicine would make as compared to what THAT SAME PERSON might make in another profession, you need a comparably weighted average, such that you must compare med schools graduates with something like the top quarter of the law schools' graduates, not the average lawyer. Someone who sneaked in at a low end law school and got barely passing grades is going to pull the average down a ton when he takes his $20k/year legal aid job, and that is really not what we are talking about.
So in fact, the attorney with the numbers to get into med school hardly only makes $139,756 five years out of law school. Folks who graduate college with high grades and get into top quarter law schools will START at a figure close to that, and will be making significantly higher 5 years out (and have a lot less debt to boot). But otherwise, I agree with you -- medicine types do fine.

Good cavet. Ideally we would compare what equally talented people would make in different fields.

i agree with rsfarell that we should only argue with the #'s like averages...

and saying something similar to "oh well a premed w/ a high gpa would do well above avg in law" and "i know plenty of plumbers making..." Or anything relating to personal experience is invalid evidence.

i could just as easily argue that a large percentage of physicians are NOT pursing money or trying to make more hence the avg. of the physicians salary could easily be MUCH MUCH higher. the follow is some logic which has NO evidence but may as well be true:

1. Many physicians lived in poverty during ug, med school, and had LOW salaries during residency with a high dept. so once they began earning 120k/yr, it seemed like a TON and hence they stayed pretty satisfied with owning a decent home, and a nice bmw with that salary. this satisfaction with their salary prevented them from pursing a larger salary, or starting their own business, or investing or whatever too perhaps.

2. many physician may feel like they are helping others and have enough to themselves. i once knew a doc that wanted to volunteer in a clinic. free time = loss in money. he wanted to do a ton of pro bono, etc. so in short, many physicians many truely not care about money almost at all and hence take a lower salary since they dont care. ie some may serve poor areas and earn less + volunteer. im sure there is a percentage of docs that do this, this drives the avg lower

3. some docs divorce, no kids, or just no one since the life of residency, busy hours, med school or whatever keeps them busy and hence destroys to some degree their social life. so the lower salary for one individual is actually a lot to them. that same salary may not be much to a physician with a huge family. but im not sure that physicians statistically have smaller families in comparison to ohters.

4. on these salary websites, i HIGHLY doubt that they have most physicians reporting their salaries. many physicians still make a ton of money however, it is seen as a moral crime to make sick money. so many physicians probably play it down a bit...

5. it is well known that physician make the highest salary on avg than any other profession. yes the business ceiling is higher than a physicians. but the basement of physicians is like in the low six figures, which is probably well above the avg of the business man.

4. on these salary websites, i HIGHLY doubt that they have most physicians reporting their salaries. many physicians still make a ton of money however, it is seen as a moral crime to make sick money. so many physicians probably play it down a bit...


This point is where your post doesn't ring true. People in general PUFF UP their stats. (Just look at MDApplicants.com for evidence.) It is human nature to try and make yourself sound more successful. And also the people most likely to report their salaries are the ones most happy about them. People who are embarrassed about how little they earn do not return the surveys. Thus when polling physicians on salaries, you are far more likely to get only responses from people who are happy about their salaries, and people will puff it up somewhat (perhaps addiing in nonsalary benefits or hopefully optimistic bonuses to make it sound like a better number). Everyone wants to keep up with the Jones'es. So I suspect the numbers are played up quite a bit, not played down, as you suggest.

I want to be doctor so I can remove feces from old people's colons. :)


Ok, I was joking, for those of you being exposed to sarcasm for the first time.

This point is where your post doesn't ring true. People in general PUFF UP their stats. (Just look at MDApplicants.com for evidence.) It is human nature to try and make yourself sound more successful. And also the people most likely to report their salaries are the ones most happy about them. People who are embarrassed about how little they earn do not return the surveys. Thus when polling physicians on salaries, you are far more likely to get only responses from people who are happy about their salaries, and people will puff it up somewhat (perhaps addiing in nonsalary benefits or hopefully optimistic bonuses to make it sound like a better number). Everyone wants to keep up with the Jones'es. So I suspect the numbers are played up quite a bit, not played down, as you suggest.
Of course if the numbers are based on tax returns (which I don't believe those are) then they would be far more accurate.

Of course if the numbers are based on tax returns (which I don't believe those are) then they would be far more accurate.

That would be nice, but realistically, you're stuck with self-reporting. That's why I stuck with one website for all salary data; so any distortions caused by the methodology would not affect comparisons.

Presumably all professions like to puff themselves up, so if the physicians salaries are inflated, so are the others. The comparisons are still valid.