Your Take on IMGs?

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Blunt Trauma

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First off let me start off by saying that the politically correct term isn't FOREIGN Medical graduate but rather INTERNATIONAL Medical graduate.


Throughout my travels across the nation during the interview trail, I have come across various programs of all shapes and sizes. Often times I would be the sole IMG being interviewed. I have come to the following conclusions:

1. I was never one to generalize or stereotype but I was surprised too see so many highly educated PDs and Chief residents completely clueless about anything beyond the borders of the good old US of A. (Retract those claws boys and girls, this isn't an attack but merely an observation).


2. PDs always made it a point that IMGs "blew AMGS out of the water in their boards and subsequent in-service exams" yet on the very same day when a resident was asked about why he chose this program he stated " there aren't many IMGs which is a plus".

3. AMGs have absolutely no idea how competitive the whole process is for an IMG. They are usually dumbfounded by the number of programs(in the hundreds) an IMG usually applies to. Many are unable to grasp the fact that an IMG must be overqualified to hope to compete in the Match.


4. On the flip side, I met many AMGs who I found to be very personable. I love the fact that many of you are very confident and arent afraid to voice your opinions. I would take that any day over the meek submissive almost sycophantic behavior I see exhibited by my IMG counterparts (you know who you are)


Your thoughts?:laugh:

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I thought international medical grads (IMG) where american citizens who were went to medical school outside of the US. And foreign medical grads (FMG) were those who were not american citizens and were trained outside of the US. Is one really the "politically correct" version of the other??
 
I was surprised too see so many highly educated PDs and Chief residents completely clueless about anything beyond the borders of the good old US of A.
There are no doubt very many highly educated and well qualified IMG's. I don't understand why you expect PD's/Chief residents to seek out knowledge of the myriad other medical education systems in God knows what countries when it is much easier to stick to what we know. How many residents do you think know of how even Canada or England works (in the same detail that they know the US system)?

I'll be quite happy to stick to my ignorance and let you prove why you deserve the residency position and not bend over to learn what system you went through. If I am interested in you enough as a candidate, I will learn all I need to know about you. If not, I won't. At least I assume this is how most Chief residents handle things.
 
I thought international medical grads (IMG) where american citizens who were went to medical school outside of the US. And foreign medical grads (FMG) were those who were not american citizens and were trained outside of the US. Is one really the "politically correct" version of the other??

No, there's nothing "politically correct" about it, and you are correct in your interpretation. However, for some reason, this distinction seems to have been lost recently and the terms are used interchangeably.
 
I thought international medical grads (IMG) where american citizens who were went to medical school outside of the US. And foreign medical grads (FMG) were those who were not american citizens and were trained outside of the US. Is one really the "politically correct" version of the other??

Actually it is the exact opposite of what you described.

.Differences between IMGs and FMGs

.
.IMGs are International Medical Graduates, or those who do not reside in the US normally and have finished their degree in their native country. .
.FMGs are Foreign Medical Graduates who usually reside in US or Canada but have obtained their degree outside of the country..

  • .IMGs are often previously trained specialists in their native country.
  • .Some IMGs may have language difficulties.
  • .IMGs often attend the best medical schools in their native country and thus receive superior medical training.
  • .Most IMGs need visas or have some immigration need prior to attending residency.
  • .IMGs traditionally have higher USMLE scores than FMGs.

  • .Most FMGs are fresh out of medical school with no post-graduate training.
  • .Most FMGs speak fluent English as most are Americans.
  • .Most FMGs attend offshore medical schools, which perhaps do not provide the best medical training.
  • .Most FMGs have no need of immigration assistance from residency programs.
  • .FMGs have issues with their USMLE scores perhaps because their medical training was not adequate.
I hope this clears any confusion for people. I had the IMG/FMG stuff tabulated, however couldn't get a table inserted on here.
 
There are no doubt very many highly educated and well qualified IMG's. I don't understand why you expect PD's/Chief residents to seek out knowledge of the myriad other medical education systems in God knows what countries when it is much easier to stick to what we know. How many residents do you think know of how even Canada or England works (in the same detail that they know the US system)?

I'll be quite happy to stick to my ignorance and let you prove why you deserve the residency position and not bend over to learn what system you went through. If I am interested in you enough as a candidate, I will learn all I need to know about you. If not, I won't. At least I assume this is how most Chief residents handle things.

I'm not talking about learning the intricacies of foreign medical systems. I was alluding to much more simple knowledge like at least knowing which continent my country is in.
 
2. PDs always made it a point that IMGs "blew AMGS out of the water in their boards and subsequent in-service exams"

Let's make this known to all. If we, AMGs, get the time period anywhere near what you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2, we will ace these exams. Remember, we only get 3 weeks to 1 month at the most to prepare for these exams, and that's right after very intensive course exams or rotations.

So, PDs should not compare IMG/FMGs to AMGs based on scores. That would be very unfair to AMGs. I think, PDs already know that.
 

Well...that is dumb. Cracks me up that the ECFMG wants to call everyone IMGs now.

It has been a long-standing shorthand (at least as long as I've been paying attention which is ~10 years now) to refer to foreign nationals who attended and graduated from medical schools in their home country and then immigrated to the US to do further training as FMGs and to refer to US citizens who (for whatever reason) went to medical school outside of the US/Canada as IMGs.

But whatever. We're calling acute renal failure AKI (acute kidney injury) now, in an apparent effort to make the kidneys feel better about their fate, so I guess calling everyone ("top of the class in India" grad who comes to the US to train as well as "barely graduated from college but my dad paid $20million to start a new med school in Mexico so I could get in" grad) IMGs now. Seems reasonable.
 
I'm not talking about learning the intricacies of foreign medical systems. I was alluding to much more simple knowledge like at least knowing which continent my country is in.

We don't really bother with geography much in the US. Our own, let alone other countries.

Seriously.
 
1. I was never one to generalize or stereotype but I was surprised too see so many highly educated PDs and Chief residents completely clueless about anything beyond the borders of the good old US of A. (Retract those claws boys and girls, this isn't an attack but merely an observation).

Geography is neither on the MCAT or USMLE, so I'm not really surprised.

2. PDs always made it a point that IMGs "blew AMGS out of the water in their boards and subsequent in-service exams" yet on the very same day when a resident was asked about why he chose this program he stated " there aren't many IMGs which is a plus".

These two statements are not related. Perhaps IMG's do better on the boards, although that's not clearly true. There's more to being a doc than getting good scores on exams. In general, more competitive fields / programs fill with US grads. Hence, US grads see programs with less IMG's as more competitive / desirable.

3. AMGs have absolutely no idea how competitive the whole process is for an IMG. They are usually dumbfounded by the number of programs(in the hundreds) an IMG usually applies to. Many are unable to grasp the fact that an IMG must be overqualified to hope to compete in the Match.

Again, not really surprising. AMG's are unlikely to know any of this, as they have not experienced it.[/QUOTE]

Let's make this known to all. If we, AMGs, get the time period anywhere near what you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2, we will ace these exams. Remember, we only get 3 weeks to 1 month at the most to prepare for these exams, and that's right after very intensive course exams or rotations.

So, PDs should not compare IMG/FMGs to AMGs based on scores. That would be very unfair to AMGs. I think, PDs already know that.

This is quoted as gospel truth on SDN all the time. And honestly, I don't believe it. I'm not convinced that "more time to study" makes you score better on an exam. Reasonable evidence is the carib schools. Most of those have very long periods of free time to study for the boards, and carb grads on average do worse than US grads. I think it's much more likely that how well you do on the USMLE's is related to 1) how inherently "smart" you are [noting that "smart" = ability to do well on MCQ exams and remember facts, which does not necessarily relate to other skills]; and 2) How hard you work at it. Perhaps IMG's get better scores because, believe it or not, they are smarter / better / harder working than their US counterparts.
 
It has been a long-standing shorthand (at least as long as I've been paying attention which is ~10 years now) to refer to foreign nationals who attended and graduated from medical schools in their home country and then immigrated to the US to do further training as FMGs and to refer to US citizens who (for whatever reason) went to medical school outside of the US/Canada as IMGs.

Actually it is the exact opposite of what you define-kindly refer to my previous post above for clarification.

If we, AMGs, get the time period anywhere near what you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2, we will ace these exams. Remember, we only get 3 weeks to 1 month at the most to prepare for these exams, and that's right after very intensive course exams or rotations.

So, PDs should not compare IMG/FMGs to AMGs based on scores. That would be very unfair to AMGs. I think, PDs already know that.

I have no idea where you get this information from. Most IMGs, the ones who were born and brought up and went to medical school abroad, are not aware of the USMLE Steps format till some of them choose to take them. Even then most are working in their residencies while taking the Steps.

On the other hand, FMGs (the ones who are American-born and bred but went offshore for medical school) and AMGs are already aware of the USMLE Steps format, and they are the ones who get time off to study for their tests.

If anything, it is very unfair to the IMGs, and not the other way around!

There's more to being a doc than getting good scores on exams.

I think it's much more likely that how well you do on the USMLEs is related to 1) how inherently "smart" you are [noting that "smart" = ability to do well on MCQ exams and remember facts, which does not necessarily relate to other skills]; and 2) How hard you work at it. Perhaps IMGs get better scores because, believe it or not, they are smarter / better / harder working than their US counterparts.

Thank you for saying this openly, especially being a PD yourself, and of course I agree with you. Most faculty acknowledge this on a one-on-one basis, and agree (in private) that things are biased against IMGs. However the problem is, as usual, no one does anything to change things so the "best person is picked for training/job".
 
However the problem is, as usual, no one does anything to change things so the "best person is picked for training/job".

You forget that it is in the government's best interest to give residency training to its own AMGs.

The government heavily subsidizes US medical schools, then guarantees huge amounts of loans to thousands of medical students every year. Therefore it is in their best interest to give training positions to US medical grads.

If there was suddenly a push for equal consideration between IMGs and AMGs (which is difficult as measuring the clinical skills is hard and its impossible to say that an IMG is the "best person for the job" based on just USMLE scores). But if there was a discrimination policy which led to IMGs taking a larger portion of spots over AMGs then there would be more unemployed AMGs and a whole bunch of unpaid loans to the government.

So I don't see that it is likely that anyone will push for any legal action for equal consideration between IMGs and AMGs (whether thats fair or not is a different issue)
 
Cite your source.

http://www.residencyinfo.com/residency_guides/international_medical_graduates.php

It also used to on the old ECFMG website when the two terms were segregated and defined as I have mentioned. Now everything is IMG to be PC I think. I might even have some old booklet from ECFMG that details all these "old things"-maybe one day I will dig it out when I go through all my old stuff.

You forget that it is in the government's best interest to give residency training to its own AMGs.

The government heavily subsidizes US medical schools, then guarantees huge amounts of loans to thousands of medical students every year. Therefore it is in their best interest to give training positions to US medical grads.

If there was suddenly a push for equal consideration between IMGs and AMGs (which is difficult as measuring the clinical skills is hard and it's impossible to say that an IMG is the "best person for the job" based on just USMLE scores). But if there was a discrimination policy which led to IMGs taking a larger portion of spots over AMGs then there would be more unemployed AMGs and a whole bunch of unpaid loans to the government.

So I don't see that it is likely that anyone will push for any legal action for equal consideration between IMGs and AMGs (whether that's fair or not is a different issue)

I completely agree with you that USMLE scores are not a marker of how good a physician one is/will be. And that is why they shouldn't be a deciding factor on who is invited for interviews. A candidate's overall CV should be considered in terms of what they have achieved in their career so far.

I am not talking about any legal action, though I think it is in the government's best interest to train the best people available from a pool to provide care for the citizens. I was mainly saying that it would be good if Faculty's perspectives change and they don't think that IMGs/FMGs are "bad for the image of their program". If this change in view-point occurs from the top-level downwards, then bias towards IMGs will be less.
 
I completely agree with you that USMLE scores are not a marker of how good a physician one is/will be.

I realize that you were not referring to me directly, but I don't agree with this statement. I think it's fair to say that USMLE scores are not the only marker off how good a physician one is/will be. There is no question that, on average, residents with higher USMLE scores have been "better" than those with lower ones. So, ignoring USMLE scores would be a mistake.

And that is why they shouldn't be a deciding factor on who is invited for interviews. A candidate's overall CV should be considered in terms of what they have achieved in their career so far.

As above, I disagree. USMLE scores provide some insight into a future resident's performance. And, it can be very difficult to interpret medical training obtained outside the US, or even that provided by the carib schools (with US rotations). I have had US IMG's and/or DO's in my program who have trouble getting started, due to lack of relevant experience in medical school. On the other hand, I've had some which have been top performers. It's just really hard to tell the difference from their applications.

I am not talking about any legal action, though I think it is in the government's best interest to train the best people available from a pool to provide care for the citizens. I was mainly saying that it would be good if Faculty's perspectives change and they don't think that IMGs/FMGs are "bad for the image of their program". If this change in view-point occurs from the top-level downwards, then bias towards IMGs will be less.

Much depends on the definition of "best interest". Since most med school loans are guaranteed by the US gov't, it would be in their best financial interest to ensure that they are all paid back. Also, from a foreign policy standpoint, other countries may not look kindly on us taking their best and brightest. And some would argue that since US tax dollars are spent on training, it's only "fair" that preference be given to US citizens. Whether any of these arguments counterbalances the argument that we should train the "best for the job" independent of medical school / citizenship depends on how you weigh the arguments.
 
I believe that the preference of residency programs to AMGs over IMGs, notwithstanding the purported lower USMLE scores of AMGs, is understandable. But there has to be a way for the US, with its shortage of physicians, to utilize the skills and education of these ECFMG certified FMGs/IMGs (esp. US citizens and legal residents). This grp. of people is a resource of this country that should be utilized or put into good use.
 
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Let's make this known to all. If we, AMGs, get the time period anywhere near what you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2, we will ace these exams. Remember, we only get 3 weeks to 1 month at the most to prepare for these exams, and that's right after very intensive course exams or rotations.

So, PDs should not compare IMG/FMGs to AMGs based on scores. That would be very unfair to AMGs. I think, PDs already know that.


It would be interesting to know where you get the information from that "you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2". Do you merely assume this because you cannot explain their higher scores otherwise?
 
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@parinaud

you calculated your percentile??wow
 
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It would be interesting to know where you get the information from that "you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2". Do you merely assume this because you cannot explain their higher scores otherwise?

Please don't get me wrong, this post is not intended to be a negative critic of the situation of FMGs applying for US residencies in general but rather a plain report of my observations. The FMGs (foreign born and trained medical graduates, not US citizens that train offshore) that I know have taken their USMLE steps while juggling medical school exams in their home country and away rotations in the US or working full-time and/or often times dealing with family/financial issues- not really an ideal prerequisite to prepare for an exam whose format you are unfamiliar with and that you have not been trained for. I personally took my steps during my final year of medical school while doing back-to-back away rotations in the US and preparing for the licensing exams that were coming up in my home country. My score was >95th percentile (and no, I am not referring to the two-digit score, but to the percentile calculated from mean and SD). My take on the whole thing is that there is a somehow "natural selection process" that only allows the most highly qualified FMG's to even make it to entering the match process.

I personally have applied for a very competitive specialty, and as an AMG I certainly would have received a much greater number of interviews (this fact has been confirmed to me by numerous residents and faculties in the field). However, I would not complain about the obstacles FMGs have to deal with, as mentioned by others, many things in your life just won't be fair. The resident education in the US is certainly superior to the systems in many other countries, and I cannot blame any PD for being cautious about hiring someone whose background they are unsure of simply because it would be impossible to be familiar with the quality of medical education in any given country. Nonetheless, it would be desirable for PD's to keep an open mind and give foreign candidates a chance if (based on their scores/LOR's/CV) they indeed promise to have the potential for being a great resident.

You are the first person I have seen who has ACTUALLY calculated his percentile. WOW. Says something about you actually!
 
I think it's fair to say that USMLE scores are not the only marker off how good a physician one is/will be. There is no question that, on average, residents with higher USMLE scores have been "better" than those with lower ones. So, ignoring USMLE scores would be a mistake.

USMLE scores provide some insight into a future resident's performance. And, it can be very difficult to interpret medical training obtained outside the US. I have had US IMGs and/or DOs in my program who have trouble getting started, due to lack of relevant experience in medical school. On the other hand, I've had some which have been top performers. It's just really hard to tell the difference from their applications.

Also, from a foreign policy standpoint, other countries may not look kindly on us taking their best and brightest.

Thanks, I meant to say that USMLE scores are not the only marker of one's abilities. I am not even suggesting that they should be ignored. I am just saying that they shouldn't be used as a definitive cut-off point for specialty training applications. As you yourself said, it is very difficult to tell from someone's application how their performance would be. So applications should be viewed in their entirety to see what someone is potentially bringing to the table.

The difficulty about interpreting medical training outside US, seems like an excuse to me. I have seen transcripts from some top US medical schools and mine looks quite similar in format, except for the University name, etc. I understand it might be difficult to compare non-English speaking schools' training, but ECFMG does a very thorough job of verifying the accuracy of an applicant's credentials, so once that has been done, then it should be taken as legit.

I also agree about the "brain-drain" phenomenon. However, people choose to stay in or leave their home countries for whatever reasons they might have. I think to sort this issue out from the American side, some sort of cap should be introduced on the number of applicants per cycle on ERAS. Looking at NRMP statistics, it seems like there are nearly 15,000 US seniors applying for a PGY1 position, leaving a potential shortfall of approximately 8,000 in the total PGY1 positions offered. So all non-US senior applicants together (US grads, Osteo, Canadian, 5th Pathway, all the various IMG/FMGs groups) should have a maximum of 10,000 applications allowed-first come, first accepted basis. Each program should also cap the number of applications received via ERAS based on their historical data. That still leaves enough in the pool to choose from for specialties, and does not give false hopes to people who don't stand a chance and the process does not make them bankrupt. The different specialties also would not be overwhelmed by the ridiculous number of applications, and would be able to scrutinize most of them sufficiently and efficiently to not base their decision on one 3-digit score. True, ERAS and ECFMG and NRMP would make less profit (I am not sure how "non-profit" these are), but wouldn't that be for the overall good?

Another system might be a point-based weightage system like in the UK (at least it used to be when I was there). Each category of achievement should be allotted points-say 10 points for Step-1 scores over 240, 8 for scores between 230-239, 5 for scores between 220-229, 10 points for each publication, 8 for each poster presentation, 6 for each talk/teaching responsibility/something similar, 10 points for each scholarship/award won, and so on. In the end, the top 20-30-however many highest-scoring applicants are invited to interviews. I believe this balances out the score v/s other achievements to some extent.

I believe that the preference of residency programs to AMGs over IMGs, notwithstanding the purported higher USMLE scores of IMGs, is understandable. But there has to be a way for the US, with its shortage of physicians, to utilize the skills and education of these ECFMG certified FMGs/IMGs (esp. US citizens and legal residents). This grp. of people is a resource of this country that should be utilized or put into good use.

I agree completely, and my potential suggestions above might be a step towards it.

The FMGs (foreign born and trained medical graduates, not US citizens that train offshore) that I know have taken their USMLE steps while juggling medical school exams in their home country and away rotations in the US or working full-time and/or often times dealing with family/financial issues- not really an ideal prerequisite to prepare for an exam whose format you are unfamiliar with and that you have not been trained for. My take on the whole thing is that there is a somehow "natural selection process" that only allows the most highly qualified FMGs to even make it to entering the match process.

I personally have applied for a very competitive specialty, and as an AMG I certainly would have received a much greater number of interviews (this fact has been confirmed to me by numerous residents and faculties in the field). However, I would not complain about the obstacles FMGs have to deal with, as mentioned by others, many things in your life just won't be fair. The resident education in the US is certainly superior to the systems in many other countries, and I cannot blame any PD for being cautious about hiring someone whose background they are unsure of simply because it would be impossible to be familiar with the quality of medical education in any given country. Nonetheless, it would be desirable for PD's to keep an open mind and give foreign candidates a chance if (based on their scores/LOR's/CV) they indeed promise to have the potential for being a great resident.

I completely agree with what you have said about the time available for preparation and financial issues, etc. However, I don't agree about the "natural selection process enabling one to enter the matching process"-If that were indeed true, we wouldn't be hearing stories of people (almost always IMGs/FMGs) who end up in some malignant residency program, usually via scramble, and their life becomes a living hell. Anyone can enter the process-I think you mean that only the best succeed in matching where they want in the specialty they want.

Even then, as you yourself are experiencing, there is a bias, regardless of how good you are. And yes, even though there is no point in complaining about obstacles and life is not fair, etc., it would still be nice if programs actually say on their websites, or wherever else that they would rather give chance to an average AMG than an exceptional IMG. The so-called "political correctness" programs maintain gives false hopes to many IMGs who then spend money they can ill-afford on chasing some mirage.

I disagree about lack of familiarity with other medical education systems as an excuse, especially in this day and age. There are a lot of precedents for most countries and schools in the US healthcare system now. If anything, they should think that if someone coming from a presumably "inferior" system (to US) can do well in their own school as well as in the USMLEs, and be an overall well-rounded applicant, then their education must have been solid to begin with.

And, of course, I reiterate that PDs should have an open mind about candidates based on all their past achievements rather than one or two arbitrary things.
 
it would be desirable for PD's to keep an open mind and give foreign candidates a chance if (based on their scores/LOR's/CV) they indeed promise to have the potential for being a great resident.


And why should US residencies give a chance to foreigners and take spots away from AMGs? Let's look at the reason why you are trying to come into the US residency. If you are indeed dedicated to being a physician to serve people in need, you would have stayed in your country and serve your people who are in greater need. Are you planning on returning to your country after the residency? I say most likely not since you are here to better your personal life. Now, if you do return, it's a loss for the US. So either way, it's not positive.

It's ironic that US docs go on medical volunteer works in 3rd world countries while some docs in those countries try so hard to get into the US for better pay and better personal life. And people who have "escaped" their own countries and left their own suffering people would most likely avoid serving in rural areas in the US where docs are needed the most. Thus, they are not really useful for the US citizens either.

I got the info that IMGs/FMGs get several months to prepare for exams from IMGs/FMGs themselves.

I am being frank instead of being politically correct.
 
And why should US residencies give a chance to foreigners and take spots away from AMGs? Let's look at the reason why you are trying to come into the US residency. If you are indeed dedicated to being a physician to serve people in need, you would have stayed in your country and serve your people who are in greater need. Are you planning on returning to your country after the residency? I say most likely not since you are here to better your personal life. Now, if you do return, it's a loss for the US. So either way, it's not positive.

It's ironic that US docs go on medical volunteer works in 3rd world countries while some docs in those countries try so hard to get into the US for better pay and better personal life. And people who have "escaped" their own countries and left their own suffering people would most likely avoid serving in rural areas in the US where docs are needed the most. Thus, they are not really useful for the US citizens either.

I got the info that IMGs/FMGs get several months to prepare for exams from IMGs/FMGs themselves.

I am being frank instead of being politically correct.

I am an IMG and I think its only fair that AMGs are given priority over IMGS. After all, its the US of A and not our country!
 
I'm not convinced that "more time to study" makes you score better on an exam. Reasonable evidence is the carib schools. Most of those have very long periods of free time to study for the boards, and carb grads on average do worse than US grads. I think it's much more likely that how well you do on the USMLE's is related to 1) how inherently "smart" you are [noting that "smart" = ability to do well on MCQ exams and remember facts, which does not necessarily relate to other skills]; and 2) How hard you work at it. Perhaps IMG's get better scores because, believe it or not, they are smarter / better / harder working than their US counterparts.

I don't know about the Carib grads and you, but if I had just one more month for Steps, I could have memorized more facts, read more books and solved more Q's which inevitably translate to higher scores. Not much intelligence (in terms of reasoning and math skills which are the apex of intellectual activities) is required to ace these multiple choice exams. Come on. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it. What's needed are just ability to read quickly and sit for long hours, move the mouse quickly, and memorize lots of random facts.

Proof? Using your own assumption of Carib grads being not intelligent, there are many cases of them getting >95% on Steps. How is that possible? Simple: they memorized better and more. Why were they in Carib then? Simple: prerequisite science courses and MCAT are more reasoning and concept based. Rote memorization won't do for those.
 
You are the first person I have seen who has ACTUALLY calculated his percentile. WOW. Says something about you actually!

At the time I received my score this seemed to be the only way to assess its meaning.
 
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And why should US residencies give a chance to foreigners and take spots away from AMGs? Let's look at the reason why you are trying to come into the US residency. If you are indeed dedicated to being a physician to serve people in need, you would have stayed in your country and serve your people who are in greater need. Are you planning on returning to your country after the residency? I say most likely not since you are here to better your personal life. Now, if you do return, it's a loss for the US. So either way, it's not positive.

It's ironic that US docs go on medical volunteer works in 3rd world countries while some docs in those countries try so hard to get into the US for better pay and better personal life. And people who have "escaped" their own countries and left their own suffering people would most likely avoid serving in rural areas in the US where docs are needed the most. Thus, they are not really useful for the US citizens either.

I got the info that IMGs/FMGs get several months to prepare for exams from IMGs/FMGs themselves.

I am being frank instead of being politically correct.

I am afraid that in all your frankness, you are making some over generalizations about the reasons IMGs come to the united states.
 
I am afraid that in all your frankness, you are making some over generalizations about the reasons IMGs come to the united states.

Sure, I'd like to be corrected. Tell me the "real reasons" please.
 
Sure, I'd like to be corrected. Tell me the "real reasons" please.

I can tell you the number one reason women doctors from my country end up in the USA-their marriages are arranged to guys from my country, usually software engineers, who are already settled here. I myself ended up in the UK for the exact same reason. A lot of us women who end up in such (so-called great) situations have to give up our own training and aspirations to do what the family wants. The only way to keep our sanity is by contributing back to the society the way we know best-by being good doctors in whichever healthcare system we now belong to.

And most of these people do not "escape" or "run away" from their life, but actually help the families and societies they left behind financially while also paying their taxes in the USA and raising responsible, high-achieving future doctors and scientists and engineers of the USA.
 
I am afraid that in all your frankness, you are making some over generalizations about the reasons IMGs come to the united states.

I don't want to generalize, but the large majority of IMGs I've met that come to the US are here because they wanted a better life. Nothing wrong with that though. It the ideal that America was built upon, a group of people who wanted better lives for themselves and their families. Having said that, I of course realize the there are certain IMGs who are here for other reasons such as their spouse, family, business, or academic career. But I don't think there's any shame in saying you came to this country because you get paid better as a physician. Who wouldn't take a better paying job if it was available. Heck, I'd move to England if they paid their doctors double the salary of American docs.
 
I would like to mention a few things:
- It is difficult to lump all IMGs together. Some are from good medical schools whereas others might have better interpersonal skills. Let us leave it to programs to select what type of candidates they prefer.

- Not all IMGs prepare for their boards for 6 months. Many IMGs take their steps within a short time so that they are certified before they apply for match.

- There is no doubt that AMGs have better interpersonal skills. However, many IMGs are highly adaptable due to their experiences working in a variety of settings and can adapt well to American culture and mannerisms.

- The strongest programs that I have been to so far have had a good mix of AMGs and IMGs. I personally judge the strength of a program based on the quality of discussion at resident reports.

- It might be worth mentioning that IMGs who train at stronger programs are more likely to remain in academics compared to AMGs who train in the same program (No references- just a general observation). Also, IMGs tend to publish more during residency compared to AMGs (since IMGs have to work harder for getting into a fellowship).

- Also, many IMGs are well-versed with most medical procedures. Of course, most hospitals don't require residents to conduct procedures. However, it is a handy skill to have.

However, I still fail to understand why applicants judge programs based on number of IMGs.
 
Let's make this known to all. If we, AMGs, get the time period anywhere near what you IMG/FMGs get (often 3-6 months to years) to prepare for STEP 1 and 2, we will ace these exams. Remember, we only get 3 weeks to 1 month at the most to prepare for these exams, and that's right after very intensive course exams or rotations.

So, PDs should not compare IMG/FMGs to AMGs based on scores. That would be very unfair to AMGs. I think, PDs already know that.

I have no idea how you come up with such fairy tales, but let me assure you I had no extra time to prepare for those exams... I didn't even have a break to study... Nights, my friend, long sleepless nights while on busy OB-GYN and surgery rotations...
 
It's ironic that US docs go on medical volunteer works in 3rd world countries while some docs in those countries try so hard to get into the US for better pay and better personal life. And people who have "escaped" their own countries and left their own suffering people would most likely avoid serving in rural areas in the US where docs are needed the most. Thus, they are not really useful for the US citizens either.

I wonder if you own a passport and ever set your foot outside of the United States? There is so much more out there than the 3rd world countries. It might be a mind-broadening experience for you and I do highly recommend you take your first opportunity to visit Western Europe.

And how about you do a rotation in a Western European hospital? Let me guess - you wouldn't be able to communicate with the patients unless it was Ireland or UK? How about taking our boards and exams in a local language?

Please just take a look at the level of linguistic fluency in English some of your responders possess... And don't forget that we do also speak at least one more language, while many of us are truly multilingual... Once I heard a saying that your intelligence can be multiplied by the number of languages you speak (in a sense...).

And last but not least - on the contrary to what you might believe, not every IMG desires a big-city residency. Quite a few would gladly serve in the rural areas...
 
There is no doubt that AMGs have better interpersonal skills.

Could you please elaborate on this? I've rotated among the U.S. military retirees, and many have actually admitted they were very pleased with my unusually respectful bedside manners. On the contrary to my AMG colleagues I would be referring to a retired colonel as "Sir", "Mr. ... " or even by the rank + last name (this as an example). While the U.S. students would happen to walk in with the usual "Hi Johny" or something equally inappropriate... Please believe me that after 20+ years of honorable service to one's country, especially as an officer, one has a very refined feeling of pride and dignity, which certainly deserve the recognition.

Though maybe you meant something else?
 
I have no idea how you come up with such fairy tales, but let me assure you I had no extra time to prepare for those exams... I didn't even have a break to study... Nights, my friend, long sleepless nights while on busy OB-GYN and surgery rotations...

Haha, let me repeat. I got the info from foreign grads themselves. If you like, go check sites like ValueMD.com

Here is my personal position on foreign grads. There are 2 reasons they may be useful:

1) They are here for the advanced training so that they can return to their countries and improve medical trainings there. This benefits their countries.

2) They are here to fill the unfilled spots, not to compete with AMGs to whom residency spots should be rightly given first. This benefits my country.

If they are not returning to their countries or competing against AMGs and then refuse to serve the under-served areas, this country has no reason to hire them.

The country and the government have duty to serve its own citizens first. Doctors also have duty to serve their own countrymen first. This is more so in the US because medical training is subsidized by tax money.

And to those that says they "had" to come here due to marriage: Are you sure the prospect of coming to America was not in the formula when you got married? Are you saying you are here reluctantly even though you really wanted to serve your own people?

Bottom line is this folks: If your country's supply of physicians is a surplus, then it's morally ok to shoot for going to other country. Otherwise, it's not morally acceptable in the face of multitude of people suffering due to lack of medical care.

In terms of personal ambition for better life for you and your family, that's your personal choice. But let's not pretend that's not the reason or demand that you be given the equal chance as AMGs in competing for residency spots. You are not US citizens. Therefore, you are not entitled to our benefits. If I am in your countries, I would expect that to be the case for me as well. That's all.
 
I wonder if you own a passport and ever set your foot outside of the United States? There is so much more out there than the 3rd world countries. It might be a mind-broadening experience for you and I do highly recommend you take your first opportunity to visit Western Europe.

And how about you do a rotation in a Western European hospital? Let me guess - you wouldn't be able to communicate with the patients unless it was Ireland or UK? How about taking our boards and exams in a local language?

Please just take a look at the level of linguistic fluency in English some of your responders possess... And don't forget that we do also speak at least one more language, while many of us are truly multilingual... Once I heard a saying that your intelligence can be multiplied by the number of languages you speak (in a sense...).

And last but not least - on the contrary to what you might believe, not every IMG desires a big-city residency. Quite a few would gladly serve in the rural areas...


My friend, I speak 3 languages fluently in both written and spoken. I've traveled all continents except Australia and Africa but I plan to visit them. So I know the medical plight of people of other countries including in the US.

So my question to you is, WHY are you in the US?
 
Haha, let me repeat. I got the info from foreign grads themselves. If you like, go check sites like ValueMD.com

Here is my personal position on foreign grads. There are 2 reasons they may be useful:

1) They are here for the advanced training so that they can return to their countries and improve medical trainings there. This benefits their countries.

2) They are here to fill the unfilled spots, not to compete with AMGs to whom residency spots should be rightly given first. This benefits my country.

If they are not returning to their countries or competing against AMGs and then refuse to serve the under-served areas, this country has no reason to hire them.

The country and the government have duty to serve its own citizens first. Doctors also have duty to serve their own countrymen first. This is more so in the US because medical training is subsidized by tax money.

And to those that says they "had" to come here due to marriage: Are you sure the prospect of coming to America was not in the formula when you got married? Are you saying you are here reluctantly even though you really wanted to serve your own people?

Bottom line is this folks: If your country's supply of physicians is a surplus, then it's morally ok to shoot for going to other country. Otherwise, it's not morally acceptable in the face of multitude of people suffering due to lack of medical care.

In terms of personal ambition for better life for you and your family, that's your personal choice. But let's not pretend that's not the reason or demand that you be given the equal chance as AMGs in competing for residency spots. You are not US citizens. Therefore, you are not entitled to our benefits. If I am in your countries, I would expect that to be the case for me as well. That's all.

So you feel that a more qualified IMG applicant is 'undeserving' because of his nationality and the less qualified sheltered AMG should be picked instead?

Thats nothing more than protectionistic hogwash.

Make up your mind. Is the the best man/woman for the job or the best American for the job?

What ever happened to free markets and the Land of the Free.

If a certain residency program wants the best possible residents and they feel that an IMG is the better applicant then they shouldn't be obliged to take the AMG.

I completely disagree with the notion that IMGs who studied at off shore schools who happen to be citizens should be preferred over foreign nationals and this is why....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...erform-better-than-home-grown-physicians.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/health/03doctors.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper
 
My friend, I speak 3 languages fluently in both written and spoken. I've traveled all continents except Australia and Africa but I plan to visit them. So I know the medical plight of people of other countries including in the US.

So my question to you is, WHY are you in the US?

Which languages?

American English? Canadian English? and Ebonics?


..I keed...I keed :laugh:
 
So my question to you is, WHY are you in the US?

Oh, I just happen to be a U.S. citizen with an immediate family in the U.S. Armed Forces. So how about we talk "service, duty, and sacrifice"... "Star Spangled Banner" right outside my window at 5 PM every day...

And guess what? Over the years I have met extraordinary physicians and military service members who weren't born in the United States, but served the country truly beyond the call of duty...

Unless you are a Native American, your family roots don't shoot straight down the U.S. soil... Please don't forget that!!!
 
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And to those that says they "had" to come here due to marriage: Are you sure the prospect of coming to America was not in the formula when you got married? Are you saying you are here reluctantly even though you really wanted to serve your own people?

being able to live with your spouse without having him to give up his career can actually be more important than your own professional considerations.
 
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The difficulty about interpreting medical training outside US, seems like an excuse to me. I have seen transcripts from some top US medical schools and mine looks quite similar in format, except for the University name, etc. I understand it might be difficult to compare non-English speaking schools' training, but ECFMG does a very thorough job of verifying the accuracy of an applicant's credentials, so once that has been done, then it should be taken as legit.

I beg to differ.

The ECFMG does absolutely NO quality control. In order to be ECFMG certified, your school needs to be IMED listed. And to be IMED listed, the country your school is located in needs to "certify" it. That's all.

The preclinical stuff is not the problem. Heck, you could start an internet based medical school and teach most of the pre clinical stuff. It's the clinical rotations which are really important, and it is often impossible to tell exactly what experience applicants have. Especially when clinical rotations are done in other countries, it's impossible to tell what they actually were. And before you suggest I read LOR's carefully (which I already do), they are useless. Every one says that the person is in the top 5% of everyone they have ever worked with.

I think to sort this issue out from the American side, some sort of cap should be introduced on the number of applicants per cycle on ERAS. Looking at NRMP statistics, it seems like there are nearly 15,000 US seniors applying for a PGY1 position, leaving a potential shortfall of approximately 8,000 in the total PGY1 positions offered. So all non-US senior applicants together (US grads, Osteo, Canadian, 5th Pathway, all the various IMG/FMGs groups) should have a maximum of 10,000 applications allowed-first come, first accepted basis.

This would be a complete nightmare. First-come First-served means that every IMG would be clicking submit right when the app season starts. Those who are lucky would get theirs in. They might not be the "best" applicants, just those that clicked the quickest.

You could have a lottery, but that's equally painful, and might actually prevent the best applicants from competing.

One other option, probably the best although still not great, would be to limit IMG applications -- each IMG applicant could only apply to 20 programs (or choose any number you want). This would create a nightmare on my end, as I'd be certain to get 1000's of emails with a CV and a "Should I apply to your program?" question. I already get those, by applicants who don't want to spend the money to apply, and I throw them away. But if we limit IMG app number, I'd probably have to look at all of them and figure out whom I wanted to apply.

Last, nothing in any of these options deals with the issue that not all PGY-1 spots are the same -- some are IM, FM, surgery, OB, etc. So if you only let a limited number of IMG apps in but they all want GS and the only open spots are FM, you've got a problem. Obviously by chance there will be some spread amongst the various fields, and I guess if you let enough IMG's in it will all even out in the end.

Each program should also cap the number of applications received via ERAS based on their historical data. That still leaves enough in the pool to choose from for specialties, and does not give false hopes to people who don't stand a chance and the process does not make them bankrupt. The different specialties also would not be overwhelmed by the ridiculous number of applications, and would be able to scrutinize most of them sufficiently and efficiently to not base their decision on one 3-digit score. True, ERAS and ECFMG and NRMP would make less profit (I am not sure how "non-profit" these are), but wouldn't that be for the overall good?

IMHO, this is another nightmare. If I were to "cap" applications -- i.e. say that I'll only look at the first 300 I receive, all that will do is create a rush to have people apply first. The first 300 will not necessarily be the best, nor the most interested in my program.

Another system might be a point-based weightage system like in the UK (at least it used to be when I was there). Each category of achievement should be allotted points-say 10 points for Step-1 scores over 240, 8 for scores between 230-239, 5 for scores between 220-229, 10 points for each publication, 8 for each poster presentation, 6 for each talk/teaching responsibility/something similar, 10 points for each scholarship/award won, and so on. In the end, the top 20-30-however many highest-scoring applicants are invited to interviews. I believe this balances out the score v/s other achievements to some extent.

This also won't work well. First, I really don't like the idea of adding up points for people and then deciding whom to interview. Plus, this will simply cause people to "play the game" to maximize their score. Given your system, you'd be much better off with 3 publications and not worrying about your USMLE score. Students would be sure to generate as many pubs in minor/local journals as they can. Faculty would tag students on authors of as many articles that they could to give them a boost. Schools would generate many awards to hand out, and make sure they get handed out early. This is not going to work.

I totally understand what you're trying to suggest here. I agree that if I have less applications to review, I might be more inclined to review each one more intensely. Then, I MIGHT not pay as much attention to USMLE scores. There are two problems with this: 1) how to limit the number of applications in a way that's fair and reasonable; and 2) how to get PD's to de-emphasize USMLE scores. USMLE's are actually one of the fairest ways to assess students -- they are completely standardized. Every student has an equal chance of doing well or poorly regardless of their background. If you attend Harvard Medical School and fail Step 1, very few PD's are going to say "Hey, that's OK, he/she went to Harvard". If you go to the "Worst US Medical School" and get a 283, PD's will see that and be impressed. I don't need to know anything about the medical system in your country to understand your USMLE score. There are plenty of books / courses / etc that teach the knowledge needed to succeed on the USMLE, and anyone can access them.

Every solution you've offered simply generates more problems (at least the way I see it). So I agree that your intensions are good, but I don't see any of these solutions working.
 
And to those that says they "had" to come here due to marriage: Are you sure the prospect of coming to America was not in the formula when you got married? Are you saying you are here reluctantly even though you really wanted to serve your own people?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying (I can only speak for myself) but I wouldn't use the word reluctant, more like I am making a sacrifice. In fact recently I met someone who; when I told her I was a doctor back home, said to me "why are you here? you could be making good money in your country/have a high social status" I said I know but the things you have to do for for family....

Still, when all is said and done, of course AMGs have more right to the residency positions than IMGs, in my opinion. It is their country. Personally I don't subscribe to this idea of America being no man's land and that every one is an immigrant whether they landed here 100years ago or today. In fact I am continually perplexed by it.

Just a little less bias and preformed notions about IMGs would be great.:)
 
I just want to say something about the interpersonal skills.

AMGs do not have better interpersonal skills. Instead, AMGs happen to be in their natural environment.

How would your interpersonal skills be rated in India or Iran? Obviously they wouldn't be better than those of the home-grown doctors.

FYI. :thumbup:
 
Personally I don't subscribe to this idea of America being no man's land and that every one is an immigrant whether they landed here 100years ago or today. In fact I am continually perplexed by it.

Some of my ancestors came here 10,000 years ago. So you guys are all interlopers to me. :)
 
this isn't an anti-IMG post. just curious.

the road to a US residency as a IMG is definitely a difficult one. I have met IMG interviewees that apply to 60+ programs in the hopes of matching at an IM program.

Just wondering what is the rationale for some programs to sign their entire class out of contract to IMGs. I work at a very nice community hospital in chicago. all of the other programs here (OB, rads, cardio fellowship, fm, surgery, gas, etc) are pretty competitive. the prelim medicine year takes applicants from top med schools that end up doing optho, rad onc, pm&r, radiology, etc

wondering what the perk is for the IM program to take everyone 1)IMG and 2)out of match. is it the culture of (internal) medicine? I've noticed that the IMG's residents are willing on working past the 80 hr work week w/o any complaint. mind you, almost none of the residents are american born carib grads. they are mostly from south asia or south america.
 
FMGs/IMGs DO NOT do better on USMLE than AMGs.

From the most recent (2008) compiled Performance Data
(http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html):

Step 1 Pass Rate
AMGs: 92%
non-AMGs: 63%

Step 2CK Pass Rate
AMGs: 94%
non-AMGs: 74%

Step 2CS Pass Rate
AMGs: 97%
non-AMGs: 70%

Step 3 Pass Rate
AMGs: 94%
non-AMGs: 71%


NBME doesn't provide averages, but assuming normal or close to normal distribution, AMGs blow non-AMGs out of the water.
 
FMGs/IMGs DO NOT do better on USMLE than AMGs.

From the most recent (2008) compiled Performance Data
(http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html):

Step 1 Pass Rate
AMGs: 92%
non-AMGs: 63%

Step 2CK Pass Rate
AMGs: 94%
non-AMGs: 74%

Step 2CS Pass Rate
AMGs: 97%
non-AMGs: 70%

Step 3 Pass Rate
AMGs: 94%
non-AMGs: 71%


NBME doesn't provide averages, but assuming normal or close to normal distribution, AMGs blow non-AMGs out of the water.

The passing rates rates for people who matched would portray an entirely different picture. Also, while interpreting the above mentioned results we need to take into account the people who apply and take exams without appropriate information about exams whereas almost all AMGs would be familiar with at least the content of the exam. Thirdly, applicants come from a very diverse pool e.g. some IMGs may not be serious about residency in USA, but take their USMLE anyway whereas almost all AMGs want to pursue a residency in USA.
 
In addition, as I have earlier said - it may not be a good idea to lump all IMGs together. For e.g. I hardly know anyone from my medical school who has not scored >95 on his steps and personally know of only one candidate who couldn't complete his step 2 CS on first attempt. I have not heard of any failures on Step 1 or Step 2 CK from my medical school. Whereas, at some other medical schools scoring above 95 is an achievement.
 
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