MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

toxicwombat said:

This thread definitely deserves a bump. Great work!

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this thread just makes me sad that Dr. Fraud is gone. I miss his random skewed, and occasionally contradictory, arguments. They made the day exciting.

DocEspana said:

this thread just makes me sad that Dr. Fraud is gone. I miss his random skewed, and occasionally contradictory, arguments. They made the day exciting.

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Maybe he's still here lurking, waiting to rise up from the ashes under a new handle.

That was my thought as well... But I really don't remember him, and am not sure why he was banned

SBB2016 said:

That was my thought as well... But I really don't remember him, and am not sure why he was banned

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With a name like Dr. Fraud, its just a matter of time. A pretty good troll name imo

rafman said:

With a name like Dr. Fraud, its just a matter of time. A pretty good troll name imo

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What I though was funny is that there was an older thread where he slammed SGU and told everyone they made up stats... (I can't remember if it was on here or value MD)

HockeyDr09 said:

Just updated the spreadsheet with 2011 NRMP data so that it's as up to date as possible. Check my first post for the download.

Enjoy!

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HockeyDr, you are truly amazing. Lol

I fixed the medicine-preliminary (PGY-1) charts and put it back up:

ManBroDude said:

EDIT: Updated to include 2011 NRMP data (2/9/12)

EDIT: well, schucks. I spoke too soon. It's all updated now, DrHockey (4/18/11)

Since we're all too lazy to click, I went ahead and took screencaps of the relevant ones. NOTE: I'm not updating this if any info changes, so take it for what it's worth.

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HockeyDr: what have you gleaned off this data after compiling it and comparing it to last year's?

I don't understand. There are literally about 2000 residency spots (AOA+NRMP) unfilled, yet 10% DO and 5% MD are unmatched. Can someone tell me why?

Not everyone wants to go into FP with debts in the 300k's

HockeyDr you're the man! Thank you!

ManBroDude said:

Not everyone wants to go into FP with debts in the 300k's

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is this really a substantial reason for empty positions?

if they're empty why won't they take caribbean folk?

I see some interesting stuff....if I'm reading the spreadsheet right

0% MD got into Urology, while 0.56% DO did.
0% MD got into Ophthalmology, while 0.35% DO did.

chiddler said:

is this really a substantial reason for empty positions?

if they're empty why won't they take caribbean folk?

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1. Only DOs can apply for AOA residencies.
2. The quality of applicants were poor enough that the PDs would rather have their slots go unfilled.

poopyhead said:

I see some interesting stuff....if I'm reading the spreadsheet right

0% MD got into Urology, while 0.56% DO did.
0% MD got into Ophthalmology, while 0.35% DO did.


.

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oh that just a glitch because of how the data was collected. The NRMP (nor the NMS/AOA) match urology or ophtho. They both match in their own independent match programs. The NRMP just doesnt stop listing them since they assume one day they will run the match for these (which is exactly what happened with neurosurgery, which used to be 100% its own match). The way the .56 came about is likely measuring the number of DOs matching into these specialty matches. I think its ~2 DOs per year into a AUA urology program. (and 18-19 into AOA programs)

poopyhead said:

I see some interesting stuff....if I'm reading the spreadsheet right

0% MD got into Urology, while 0.56% DO did.
0% MD got into Ophthalmology, while 0.35% DO did.





1. Only DOs can apply for AOA residencies.
2. The quality of applicants were poor enough that the PDs would rather have their slots go unfilled.

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For a premed you are way too opinionated about your future colleagues and about things that you know very little about! Just wait until you start medical school where you will consider yourself lucky to be in the middle of your class. Every premed on SDN thinks they are the s*** and about half way into the 1st month of medical school they'll realize that they are not that much smarter than their colleagues.

There are many reasons programs go unfilled and quality of applicant is not one of the top reasons. Any program would rather get the worst applicant than go unfilled at the end because interns/residents = funding from the federal government (close to $100K per trainee in addition to their salaries/benefits).

Also, there are some applicants who choose not to do FM even if that means waiting an extra year and there are few who decide not to pursue a career in medicine after medical school.

DocEspana said:

oh that just a glitch because of how the data was collected. The NRMP (nor the NMS/AOA) match urology or ophtho. They both match in their own independent match programs. The NRMP just doesnt stop listing them since they assume one day they will run the match for these (which is exactly what happened with neurosurgery, which used to be 100% its own match). The way the .56 came about is likely measuring the number of DOs matching into these specialty matches. I think its ~2 DOs per year into a AUA urology program. (and 18-19 into AOA programs)

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NMS runs AOA ophtho and uro matches. Otherwise you are correct. They are run by SF match (Ophto) and AUA match (Uro) on the ACGME side.

DocEspana said:

oh that just a glitch because of how the data was collected. The NRMP (nor the NMS/AOA) match urology or ophtho. They both match in their own independent match programs. The NRMP just doesnt stop listing them since they assume one day they will run the match for these (which is exactly what happened with neurosurgery, which used to be 100% its own match). The way the .56 came about is likely measuring the number of DOs matching into these specialty matches. I think its ~2 DOs per year into a AUA urology program. (and 18-19 into AOA programs)

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ah, that makes more sense

bala565 said:

For a premed you are way too opinionated about your future colleagues and about things that you know very little about! Just wait until you start medical school where you will consider yourself lucky to be in the middle of your class. Every premed on SDN thinks they are the s*** and about half way into the 1st month of medical school they'll realize that they are not that much smarter than their colleagues.

There are many reasons programs go unfilled and quality of applicant is not one of the top reasons. Any program would rather get the worst applicant than go unfilled at the end because interns/residents = funding from the federal government (close to $100K per trainee in addition to their salaries/benefits).

Also, there are some applicants who choose not to do FM even if that means waiting an extra year and there are few who decide not to pursue a career in medicine after medical school.

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eh..so you're saying on the ACGME side, the PDs of these unfilled FM programs couldn't find any desperate IMG/FMG at all to fill? Really now? Quality of applicant doesn't start to weigh in a bit more here?

FYI, my first point was referring to unfilled AOA slots (which IMG/FMG can't apply to), while my second point was referring to unfilled ACGME slots.

poopyhead said:

ah, that makes more sense



eh..so you're saying on the ACGME side, the PDs of these unfilled FM programs couldn't find any desperate IMG/FMG at all to fill? Really now? Quality of applicant doesn't start to weigh in a bit more here?

FYI, my first point was referring to unfilled AOA slots (which IMG/FMG can't apply to), while my second point was referring to unfilled ACGME slots.

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I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about unfilled AOA spots in your second point

Nonetheless, I didn't say they didn't find any, I said they decided to go unfilled for reasons other than trouble finding qualified applicants. There are numerous well qualified FMGs who end up not matching because they didn't have proper advice or had trouble getting ECFMG certified by the deadline, etc. so it is not lack of qualified applicants. There are many factors that PDs of unfilled programs consider and decide to go unfilled for the year (e.g. shifting that spot to a PGY2 spot or shifting that to a prelim spot in IM, etc.).

Just curious..why are DO's allowed to go into MD spots? However, MD's can't go into DO spots?

Do you by any chance have data on the average stats of people who failed to get into certain DO residencies? Like for example 29 people got into DO Derm, with XXX Comlex, average people who failed to get into DO Derm with YYY Comlex as well as the amount of people who failed to get into that residency and total who applied.

serenade said:

Do you by any chance have data on the average stats of people who failed to get into certain DO residencies? Like for example 29 people got into DO Derm, with XXX Comlex, average people who failed to get into DO Derm with YYY Comlex as well as the amount of people who failed to get into that residency and total who applied.

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http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2009.pdf

bala565 said:

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2009.pdf

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serenade said:

Do you by any chance have data on the average stats of people who failed to get into certain DO residencies? Like for example 29 people got into DO Derm, with XXX Comlex, average people who failed to get into DO Derm with YYY Comlex as well as the amount of people who failed to get into that residency and total who applied.

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Derm #'s aren't on there because of how the match works I think. All the other ones should be though

bala565 said:

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2009.pdf

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Thank you .

DoktorB said:

Derm #'s aren't on there because of how the match works I think. All the other ones should be though

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I'm ignorant, in what way does the match differ for derm?

med etudiant said:

Just curious..why are DO's allowed to go into MD spots? However, MD's can't go into DO spots?

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My philosphy on that one was always that we do everything in their curriculum and then some

I don't actually know a lot about the residency programs...however, it has been my understanding that AOA residency programs are typically going to have an OMM type component incorporated into it. That may just be occasional CME type things, but it would be hard to place someone in that situation with zero OMM experience. Two years of OMM in school could very well be condensed down for MDs if they wanted to make it a viable option. However, let's be honest....with the stigma still in existence between the two career paths, how many MDs are going to apply for DO residencies anyway?? I mean, this is coming from me, as a very proud DO student lol.

Anyone has else more perspective on this? Maybe there's a more policially based type reason for this...

GraceEuphoria said:

My philosphy on that one was always that we do everything in their curriculum and then some

I don't actually know a lot about the residency programs...however, it has been my understanding that AOA residency programs are typically going to have an OMM type component incorporated into it. That may just be occasional CME type things, but it would be hard to place someone in that situation with zero OMM experience. Two years of OMM in school could very well be condensed down for MDs if they wanted to make it a viable option. However, let's be honest....with the stigma still in existence between the two career paths, how many MDs are going to apply for DO residencies anyway?? I mean, this is coming from me, as a very proud DO student lol.

Anyone has else more perspective on this? Maybe there's a more policially based type reason for this...

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To complete a DO residency you must complete a DO internship which requires at least 4 weeks of formal OMM rotation (regardless of specialty). Also some MD students would kill to have access to some of our ROAD/surgical specialties.

However, these question are usually asked by trolls... This question is asked and answered on average about once every other week with increased frequency during this time of the year. The best is to just ignore them.

med etudiant said:

Just curious..why are DO's allowed to go into MD spots? However, MD's can't go into DO spots?

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The answer is quite simple.

The AOA will recognize training for DOs done at either ACGME or AOA programs.

The ACGME will only recognize training for MDs done at ACGME programs, not AOA programs. An MD is not "allowed" to go into an AOA program simply because it wouldn't make sense at all. Why complete post-graduate residency training at a program that won't be recognized? If the ACGME ever changes its stance then MDs could potentially apply to DO programs.

bala565 said:

To complete a DO residency you must complete a DO internship which requires at least 4 weeks of formal OMM rotation (regardless of specialty). Also some MD students would kill to have access to some of our ROAD/surgical specialties.

However, these question are usually asked by trolls... This question is asked and answered on average about once every other week with increased frequency during this time of the year. The best is to just ignore them.

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For as much as I'm on here, I never see this one being asked....not sure how I miss it honestly I was also unaware about the 4 wk thing...why would that be a policy if MDs can't apply? DO students get 2 years worth as a standard, right? Sorry, I think I might be misunderstanding your post...

Shinken said:

The answer is quite simple.

The AOA will recognize training for DOs done at either ACGME or AOA programs.

The ACGME will only recognize training for MDs done at ACGME programs, not AOA programs. An MD is not "allowed" to go into an AOA program simply because it wouldn't make sense at all. Why complete post-graduate residency training at a program that won't be recognized? If the ACGME ever changes its stance then MDs could potentially apply to DO programs.

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There's that political reason I was looking for lol....this makes sense.

GraceEuphoria said:

For as much as I'm on here, I never see this one being asked....not sure how I miss it honestly I was also unaware about the 4 wk thing...why would that be a policy if MDs can't apply? DO students get 2 years worth as a standard, right? Sorry, I think I might be misunderstanding your post...


There's that political reason I was looking for lol....this makes sense.

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I don't understand your question.

You get two years of training in medical school. The 4 week rotation is part of your internship training where you will be treating real patients. MDs don't have OMM training in medical school therefore are not able to treat patients using OMM and hence are unable to successfully complete an AOA internship year which prevents them from completing an AOA residency.

Before this turns into an OMM thread: Although I fully believe in OMM, this post has nothing to do with that; Regardless of what specialty you go into/whether you will use it in the future or not and how useful/useless it is, AOA internship requires OMM rotation.

Again, trust me, I personally have responded to few of these in the near past... Just ignore it (I wasn't going to respond if it wasn't for your question/post)!

Pretty sure that there is either no OMM rotation reqirement or that it is state-specific. I looked up the differences between acgme and aoa interns in dual accredited programs. The differences are (besides obvious different tests) 1. Required aoa membership. 2. An EM month (for aoa only) 3. A OMM clinic (which simply requires that you document an Osteopathic structural exam, not any treatment) and 4. At least 12 hours of OMM education per year. That's hours.

DocEspana said:

Pretty sure that there is either no OMM rotation reqirement or that it is state-specific. I looked up the differences between acgme and aoa interns in dual accredited programs. The differences are (besides obvious different tests) 1. Required aoa membership. 2. An EM month (for aoa only) 3. A OMM clinic (which simply requires that you document an Osteopathic structural exam, not any treatment) and 4. At least 12 hours of OMM education per year. That's hours.

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The following is from our good friends at the AOA postdoctoral accreditation standards:

"Osteopathic principles and practice shall be incorporated throughout the program, which includes structural and palpatory diagnosis, and osteopathic manipulative treatment with diagnosis and treatment documented on charts of patients of osteopathic physicians."

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/postdoctoral-training/Pages/default.aspx

Most programs satisfy this requirement with 1 month of OMM rotation or some kind of outpatient OMM clinic.

Also, depending on what programs you look at there are other differences as well. For instance, for IM, to get AOA credit you must also complete a surgery rotation and an ambulatory ob-gyn rotation which may or may not be part of the ACGME training.

The point is, technically you need to know OMM to complete an AOA internship year!

I can promise you no one at the two DO training sites knows any OMM unless they keep it up themselves. If only filling out a structural exam once per patient (not per visit, pet chart) counts, and it does, that's some huge corner cutting to allow when others go and do a full on month. It would take a few hours to teach an md to palpate a spine and diagnose just the spine if no treatment, just diagnosis, is required.

DocEspana said:

I can promise you no one at the two DO training sites knows any OMM unless they keep it up themselves. If only filling out a structural exam once per patient (not per visit, pet chart) counts, and it does, that's some huge corner cutting to allow when others go and do a full on month. It would take a few hours to teach an md to palpate a spine and diagnose just the spine if no treatment, just diagnosis, is required.

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I don't know what your point is but those are the rules. If programs cut corners, you (or the interns/residents) should report them to the AOA as their education is being compromised.

bala565 said:

I don't know what your point is but those are the rules. If programs cut corners, you (or the interns/residents) should report them to the AOA as their education is being compromised.

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No. That's accepted amounts of omm activity was my point. The hospital was actually just audited by aoa in October. 12 hours of OMM lecture and filling out structural evaluation of yhr spine once per patient is all that is required.

I was simply noting that the unique "DO specific" requirements are remarkably minimal. I'm sure many programs go beyond that, but I also know 2 for 2 of the do sites I know do the minimum, and one of them was just audited and passed fine. Nothing had to change.

bala565 said:

their education is being compromised.

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It's sad really..all those somatic dysfunctions falling through the cracks.

DocEspana said:

I can promise you no one at the two DO training sites knows any OMM unless they keep it up themselves. If only filling out a structural exam once per patient (not per visit, pet chart) counts, and it does, that's some huge corner cutting to allow when others go and do a full on month. It would take a few hours to teach an md to palpate a spine and diagnose just the spine if no treatment, just diagnosis, is required.

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DocEspana said:

No. That's accepted amounts of omm activity was my point. The hospital was actually just audited by aoa in October. 12 hours of OMM lecture and filling out structural evaluation of yhr spine once per patient is all that is required.

I was simply noting that the unique "DO specific" requirements are remarkably minimal. I'm sure many programs go beyond that, but I also know 2 for 2 of the do sites I know do the minimum, and one of them was just audited and passed fine. Nothing had to change.

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DoktorB said:

It's sad really..all those somatic dysfunctions falling through the cracks.

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GraceEuphoria you see now how these arguments about the AOA match get started by some troll and where it always ends!

So let's ignore the troll (the person who originally asked the question) and get back to the very important and substantive discussions regarding hard facts and statistics of MD vs DO vs Caribbean

bala565 said:

GraceEuphoria you see now how these arguments about the AOA match get started by some troll and where it always ends!

So let's ignore the troll (the person who originally asked the question) and get back to the very important and substantive discussions regarding hard facts and statistics of MD vs DO vs Caribbean

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Wait... Am I the troll? For knowing the exact requirements delineated by the aoa and practiced by multiple, perhaps many or most, aoa programs? I was just fact checking (or more accurately I was clarifying a somewhat impercise comment). It's not trolling if I'm politely correcting a slightly incorrect statement while still agreeing with your main point. Plus this thread stopped being about do vs img ages ago and morphed into tangents many posts ago.

I may have entirely misunderstood your comment cause I'm still not sure I get it.

DocEspana said:

Wait... Am I the troll? For knowing the exact requirements delineated by the aoa and practiced by multiple, perhaps many or most, aoa programs? I was just fact checking (or more accurately I was clarifying a somewhat impercise comment). It's not trolling if I'm politely correcting a slightly incorrect statement while still agreeing with your main point. Plus this thread stopped being about do vs img ages ago and morphed into tangents many posts ago.

I may have entirely misunderstood your comment cause I'm still not sure I get it.

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He's a bit rigid with his world view paradigm.

Bahaha...ok...
1.) No he was not calling YOU the troll, but rather the person up above that asked about why MDs can't enter AOA residencies, so you're clear
2.) Based on that person's post history (which I did look at out of curiosity because of the post count being fairly high), I decided it was worthwhile to respond to.

As to whether or not it was a troll question, guess we won't know unless the poster comes back to retrieve the answer. Either way, I'll deal with the "consequences" if it happens The question is legitimate, even as a medical student. Not everyone spends much time researching these things...I am regulary amazed by how clueless the average medical student is to the whole process.

People in this thread may be interested in this spreadsheet I created. It compares match lists of osteopathic schools as well as COMLEX, GPA/MCAT and a bunch of other stuff. Its not perfect but not the data needed is publicly available. It's a work in progress, I'll put out an update every few months as I add more.

HockeyDr09 - What you did is awesome, THANK YOU!! I hope you don't mind, i hosted your spreadsheet on my site as well in hopes that more people will see it (I gave you full credit)

https://sites.google.com/site/osteopathicreference/home

StudentDO2016 said:

People in this thread may be interested in this spreadsheet I created. It compares match lists of osteopathic schools as well as COMLEX, GPA/MCAT and a bunch of other stuff. Its not perfect but not the data needed is publicly available. It's a work in progress, I'll put out an update every few months as I add more.

HockeyDr09 - What you did is awesome, THANK YOU!! I hope you don't mind, i hosted your spreadsheet on my site as well in hopes that more people will see it (I gave you full credit)

https://sites.google.com/site/osteopathicreference/home

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Thank you for that list. Very usefull to have those stats all compiled together. Lots of great info in this thread.

So does average indebtedness include loans taken out for living fees and everything or simply for tuition and fees?

DrMaximus said:

So does average indebtedness include loans taken out for living fees and everything or simply for tuition and fees?

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Everything

DrMaximus said:

So does average indebtedness include loans taken out for living fees and everything or simply for tuition and fees?

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could you please tell me where you found average indebtedness?

In that excellent excel sheet a few posts up under the schools tab

ManBroDude said:

In that excellent excel sheet a few posts up under the schools tab

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And by the looks of it, if my figures are right, I'll be over the average indebtedness by about $12,000. Boo.

StudentDO2016 said:

People in this thread may be interested in this spreadsheet I created. It compares match lists of osteopathic schools as well as COMLEX, GPA/MCAT and a bunch of other stuff. Its not perfect but not the data needed is publicly available. It's a work in progress, I'll put out an update every few months as I add more.

HockeyDr09 - What you did is awesome, THANK YOU!! I hope you don't mind, i hosted your spreadsheet on my site as well in hopes that more people will see it (I gave you full credit)

https://sites.google.com/site/osteopathicreference/home

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Unfortunately some schools seem to be misinforming people with their match lists... for example, DMU is saying a 2011 grad matched to UH Case in EM, that is not true... there is only 1 DO in that class and he is from LECOM (DMU's list is direct from the school, so not an error in transferring)

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but there is no 4 week OMM requirement for DO internships, only 1 hour/month. Having completed a DO internship I can confirm this first-hand.

Congrats to those who matched in the DO match, and good luck to those waiting for the MD match.

StudentDO2016 said:

https://sites.google.com/site/osteopathicreference/home

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For each school, I divided the total number of students who matched into residency by the entering class size. For most schools, only about 70~80% of students successfully matched after all. Does that mean the overall attrition rate can be as high as 30% throughout the four years?

Tacozhu said:

For each school, I divided the total number of students who matched into residency by the entering class size. For most schools, only about 70~80% of students successfully matched after all. Does that mean the overall attrition rate can be as high as 30% throughout the four years?

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No, many schools have increased their class size in recent years.

Shinken said:

The AOA will recognize training for DOs done at either ACGME or AOA programs.

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Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a DO), but I believe that DOs who complete ACGME residencies are accredited through the ABMS boards (the MD pathway) and not through the AOA/osteopathic boards.

The NBME boards actually do recognize AOA-accredited medical schools, which is the only reason why DOs can participate in the regular match.

Shinken said:

The ACGME will only recognize training for MDs done at ACGME programs, not AOA programs. An MD is not "allowed" to go into an AOA program simply because it wouldn't make sense at all. Why complete post-graduate residency training at a program that won't be recognized? If the ACGME ever changes its stance then MDs could potentially apply to DO programs.

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The problem isn't the ACGME or the ABMS. If an MD did hypothetically complete an AOA residency, then they would need to be accredited by the osteopathic boards that oversaw his/her postgraduate education.

The problem is that there is no reciprocity with the osteopathic boards - although the ABMS recognizes the DO degree and will grand board certification to a DO who completed an ACGME residency, the osteopathic boards will not do the same for an MD.

That's why MDs cannot participate in the AOA match.