Law School or Medical School...

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sinenomine

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Well, I'm sort of in a dilemma, but perhaps some of you here may be able to give me a reality check. I graduated from a top 20 undergraduate institution last year, receiving a Bachelor of Science degree and majoring in Physics and Classics (of which I received highest honors for a thesis published). GPA's above 3.95 and I have some decent softs.

Now, I wanted to take a break before I continued onto any higher education and this also served as a time of reflection about what I wanted to do. For the last year, I was teaching in two public schools in the north of France and I've just been accepted to teach at the University of Paris (not as a professor, of course...). In addition, I plan to apply to do a Fulbright and maybe possibly the Peace Corps for the upcoming years... yeah, I kind of want a big break before going back to school.

But I have been thinking... do I want to go to Law School or Medical School? I've eliminated wanting to do engineering and I'm not sure how I feel about business school, so for the time being, I'm keeping my options between LS or MS.

Now then, why would I want to do law?
- I took the LSAT and received a 174 (out of 180)...
- I have a decent shot at getting into one of the top 3 law schools
- I could work for some governmental job (maybe FBI or Department of Justice)
- If I couldn't get government work, then I'd be fine working in corporate law or patent law

Problems with law:
- I have hesitations about going to law school... when I ask myself, "Why do I want to go to law?" I only respond, "to work in a nice government post that requires only 40/50 hours a week and if I cannot get that, to work in a job that racks in $160000+ and basically tries to find every way to screw over people"
- Even though, I have a very high shot of getting into one of the best law schools and thus will have very good job prospects, I'm still nervous about the job opportunities
- For the most part, when I think about it... law (especially in America) is just a good way to dick people over and continue to feed an ever-suffocating beast
- If I can I live with being a nuisance or sustaining a system that resorts to such practices, I wouldn't mind the million dollar checks or enjoying working in a system where the top judge can throw his gavel around and declare, "Corporations are people" or where the Constitution is merely a good joke for some laughs during cocktail parties


Now for medical school... why become a doctor?
- I definitely would enjoy helping people (teaching has shown me this), despite the system that doctors have to work in (and boy, do teachers also have to deal with the politics... and it's very crazy in France... if I can live through this and still remain quite happy, I think I could deal with being a doctor)
- I do like science
- I'm not so interested in bringing in the big bucks... comfortable means is all I seek

Major problems with becoming a doctor:
- I lack the necessary courses... yes, I have physics, but I have no biology or chemistry except for the measly AP credits that carried over from high school
- I do not really have any research experience in a health setting (is this necessary? ...I do have research I did in physics, though… but not really substantial)
- I lack anything in my softs showing that medicine would be a proper fit (yet, I could shadow doctors I guess... my mother's a nurse and perhaps I could shadow someone at the hospital during the summers when I'm stateside)
- Of course, no MCAT


So yeah... looking at this, it definitely appears that going to Law School would be the path of least resistance. But my major concern is whether I'd enjoy practicing law... and I am not sure if I can live with myself knowing that the only law I would like to practice is of those types that serve the interest of bankers and transnational corporations (since that type of law roles in the big dollars)... and even governmental law jobs primarily serve to monopolize power to state or federal institutions and diminish individual rights... those are just my views... I mean, if I could get past that, I would be fine... but I'm not sure.

However, with medicine, I believe I would sincerely get joy out of it, since I'd be helping people... this is my biggest concern... do a job that most certainly helps society... but also renders a decent pay check... and of course, I do like science.

On a side note… what about army doctors? Would that be an interesting profession... yes, I do have a slight inclination for overseas adventure, but I'm sure we'll not be fighting any more wars once we're finally out of Iraq and Afghanistan (of course, there are the bases). Yet, as you see... I am very underqualified when it comes to courses and showing interest in medicine... how do people take courses they miss once they've already graduated?

Well, if you've managed to read through all that, my sincerest thanks. Please let me know what your thoughts are... I think I'd be successful in both fields, but I'd prefer to choose the one I'd also be happy in.... and the more I think about, the more anxious I get about turning in a law school application ...I'll still have a few more years to think and reflect about it, but any input would be greatly appreciated.
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sinenomine said:
Well, I'm sort of in a dilemma, but perhaps some of you here may be able to give me a reality check..
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Reality check...start volunteering somewhere and get your hands dirty in the field. You'll know in a couple overnight shadows at your local ER if medicine is the burning passion for you...
 
I am afraid that the very fact that you mention following graduate education in 4 specialties that provide better than average income, rather than even considering advanced education in fields that pay less shows that your main motivation is life comfort and income.

Please do not choose either law or medicine for those reasons, as neither of them provide either of the things you look for.
 
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Taking a break from higher ed is an excellent idea. Your post indicates you are not really passionate about law or medicine. Both fields are highly competitive, require extensive training and place sometimes unpleasant demands on one's personal life.

You mentioned the Peace Corps. A stint the Peace Corps or a similar organization could be a great experience to gain exposure to public health and/or legal issues in an international setting. If nothing else, PC would provide time for growth and reflection while sating your desire for travel and adventure.

You may end up making a great doctor or lawyer. But I think some time and consideration is warranted before committing to either.
 
sinenomine said:
- I lack anything in my softs showing that medicine would be a proper fit (yet, I could shadow doctors I guess... my mother's a nurse and perhaps I could shadow someone at the hospital during the summers when I'm stateside)
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Do yourself a favor and don't even think about pursuing medicine until you have clocked dozens of hours in a clinical setting. You can get a volunteer gig pretty easily, 4 hrs/week.

Successful med school applicants have demonstrated their ambition with hundreds of hours in a clinical setting, and can hold forth in an interview about lessons learned, and about the intensely complex problems in US healthcare. You have no credibility without this exposure, and you should not invest in coursework before you have smelled patients.

Shadowing is also expected, on the order of 40 hours, as a supplemental activity to clinical volunteering.

My recommendation is to put all of this on hold until you're back from the Peace Corps and/or Fulbright commitment.

Best of luck to you.
 
I'm going to disagree with the other posters about volunteering. I'm not saying not to volunteer, but rather no to the idea that volunteering will cement whether or not you want to go into medicine.

By and large, volunteering for pre-meds is a means to an end. There's actually very little soul-searching that goes on in most volunteering situations. I already made my mind up about medicine and then volunteered at the ER to bolster my application. For the most part, that's the story of pre-meds in general. Volunteering at the ER won't really teach you much about medicine; the doctors/nurses are usually too busy to be asked questions and your duties consist of getting water/blankets for patients and cleaning rooms up. Shadowing is in very much the same vein. If you know the doctor you will shadow personally or professionally beforehand, you will have a much better experience than simply cold-calling groups and finding a willing participant. Again, shadowing is a "checkbox" to be ticked; there is very little soul-searching that goes on in such situations. Most pre-meds have already made up their minds by the time they shadow and no amount of encouragement or discouragement will change that decision.

IMO, there are a few big draws to medicine, of which, you need to be passionate about at least a couple of them. One is diagnosis/problem-solving. Much of medicine is based around finding the cause of a person's problem and then developing a treatment plan for the disease. Depending on the field, you could face a new problem with each patient or only see a unique case every couple weeks or months. Second is the power/control. Physicians are pretty much top-dog in the hospital/health care setting. There is also tremendous satisfaction from knowing that you hold the ultimate say in treatment or diagnosis. Closely tied with this is the prestige. When you have a stethoscope and white coat on, there is a level of respect you will get that is unparalleled in most of society. There is the fact that you will do tremendous amounts of good for thousands of patients over the course of your career. Finally, there is the lucrative salary coupled with guaranteed job placement. Doctors are one of the few professions that have a high-paying job guaranteed to them anywhere in the country.

Of course, the downsides are numerous. Long training periods, expensive debt, dwindling resources, cost-cutting, intrusion of administrators in patient care, etc etc. It's up to you to weight the pros and cons and see where you ultimately come up with.
 
Guys! He is in France! What volunteering?
I've asked about this before (being overseas myself) and have been basically told that any non-US medical volunteering doesn't count. Is there really anything to be done on that front as far as volunteering/shadowing activities are concerned?
 
Volunteering as a premed is pretty useless for seeing if you're interested in medicine or not.

I mean, let's be honest here. You have no qualifications whatsoever. They're not going to let you assist an operation. They're not going to let you take a patient history. Instead, they'll just make you do scut work like clean rooms and transport patients.

If there are patients, that is. If not, you get to spend most of your time sitting in a room reading magazines.
 
HughMyron said:
Volunteering as a premed is pretty useless for seeing if you're interested in medicine or not.

I mean, let's be honest here. You have no qualifications whatsoever. They're not going to let you assist an operation. They're not going to let you take a patient history. Instead, they'll just make you do scut work like clean rooms and transport patients.

If there are patients, that is. If not, you get to spend most of your time sitting in a room reading magazines.
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You have completely missed the point of clinical exposure. It's not an audition for doctoring. It's to learn about healthcare delivery, with all its ups and downs, in situ. What are nurses like. What are obese drunken diabetic smoker patients like. What are techs like. Why are volunteers not allowed to do anything. How long do people wait in an ER waiting room. What do the security guards and ambulance drivers think. What does stuff cost. How clean (or not) is a hospital. What are physicians/residents/med students worried about during their work day. Etc. Can you stand it? Do you love it? After a 4 hour volunteer shift are you pumped and is your mind racing and are you just dying to get back in there?

Whether you think it's useless or not doesn't matter at all. Whether you are able to find ways to learn about healthcare or not, while pushing stretchers and cleaning stuff, is the difference between a mature candidate and an immature candidate.

Without substantial clinical exposure, your desire to practice medicine has about as much credibility as an 8 year old who wants a unicorn.

Best of luck to you.
 
DrMidlife said:
Without substantial clinical exposure, your desire to practice medicine has about as much credibility as an 8 year old who wants a unicorn.
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so I guess the other 190 countries who train doctors, without forcing pre-meds to push patients around, train doctors who don't really desire to practice medicine?
 
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notbobtrustme said:
so I guess the other 190 countries who train doctors without them needing to push patients around don't train doctors who really desire to practice medicine?
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Yup, I'm sorry, but delivering blankets and transporting patients has zero relevance to medical school.

Unless you're doing something real like volunteering as an EMT, it's just a checkbox.

To the OP - consider patent and IP law. One of the more interesting fields out there, and one for which your background would suit you well.

Medicine is good, but being a lawyer in the right field can be more interesting.

Don't go into law if you can't make it into one of the top 3, and I'd avoid Yale unless you want to be a law professor (great school but impractical, kind of true of their MD program as well).
 
notbobtrustme said:
so I guess the other 190 countries who train doctors, without forcing pre-meds to push patients around, train doctors who don't really desire to practice medicine?
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Have you met the doctors that come out from medical schools in countries where it not prestigeous to be an MD?

Although in some countries it is a true sacrifices and being a doctor is a calling the quality of their education and subsequent quality of work is on the level of stone ages
 
Woland said:
Have you met the doctors that come out from medical schools in countries where it not prestigeous to be an MD?

Although in some countries it is a true sacrifices and being a doctor is a calling the quality of their education and subsequent quality of work is on the level of stone ages
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Being a doctor has always been prestigious. That's not the point.

I don't need to meet other countries' doctors. I can look at health outcomes around the world and see that the rest of the world has excellent healthcare despite (because?) the fact that their doctors don't have to put on a dog and pony show to get admitted.
 
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johnnydrama said:
Yup, I'm sorry, but delivering blankets and transporting patients has zero relevance to medical school.

Unless you're doing something real like volunteering as an EMT, it's just a checkbox.

To the OP - consider patent and IP law. One of the more interesting fields out there, and one for which your background would suit you well.

Medicine is good, but being a lawyer in the right field can be more interesting.

Don't go into law if you can't make it into one of the top 3, and I'd avoid Yale unless you want to be a law professor (great school but impractical, kind of true of their MD program as well).
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I don't think DrMidlife was writing about clinical volunteering's relevance to medical school. Medical school, too, is a means to an end. I agree that it can be a valuable step for those of us trying to decide if medicine is the right career path. Maybe that's not the case for you or your group of friends, but I wouldn't assume that's the case for everyone. It certainly was an important step for me.

The OP clearly has no real direction right now beyond the Fulbright/Peace Corp plan, which is a great path btw. I think s/he should do that, work hard, mature and get more life experience before committing to law, medicine or anything else requiring a huge investment of time and money.

This is a non-trad board for pre-meds. As such, I echo the others who said that - if and when you decide your interest in medicine is real - you get some clinical exposure in the United States. You don't need 200+ hours but a few months of putting in 4-hour volunteer shifts in a hospital ER is free and it will tell you if you find it interesting or not. I found being in the environment exciting and energizing. I got to watch trauma surgeries and exams. Those who don't like it aren't necessarily not cut out for medicine (maybe it's a slow ER, or maybe it's not emergency medicine that interests them). At that point, shadowing a few doctors in other specialties can be helpful.

As for law school, there are a lot of things you can do with a JD from a prestigious law school after you grind out a few years working in a large law firm to get experience and pay off your law school debt. Choosing the path that gives you the best financial security and time to yourself is not immature. It's realistic. If in a few years you find that you still don't have a true "passion," being passionate about your hobbies and other interests is not a bad way to live if you have a job that gives you the time and money to pursue those things.
 
sinenomine, once you are stateside you should try some clinical volunteering and shadowing to see if you like the environment of US medical practice in the 21st century. While many people put-down the experience of volunteers in the emergency department, there are life and death struggles there every day and you can be a witness to them if you play your cards right which means cheerfully going about your duties, being a self-starter and not overstepping your bounds. There are other volunteer experiences, particularly if you are older than the average pre-med, including the neonatal ICU and post-operative care. The point is to become comfortable interacting with strangers (to you) who are injured, sick, scared, stressed, or distraught. Sometimes you will be interacting with staff who are some of those things plus arrogant, demanding, bossy and generally unpleasant. Either you have the temperment for that or medical school and residency can be hell.

Shadowing a variety of physicians in various specialties is another way to get an insider view of medicine. Contrary to the belief of some medical students, there are people who do some shadowing and decide that medicine is not the best path for them (despite having the grades and aptitude for the profession). Far better to figure that out before you invest years of your life and a small fortune in tuition/applications/interviews.

As for the classes you are missing, you have two possible paths. One is to take evening/weekend classes at a community college or a four year university while working full-time. The other alternative is to go "all in" with a full-time post-bac program. Some of the best will set you up with an opportunity for research (although your physics research back when does count as an experience in research) and clinical volunteering. Some of these programs are "easy to get in-hard to stay in" but those who finish are very well positioned for admission to medical school and others are much more selective on the front end and also produce good candidates.
 
notbobtrustme said:
Being a doctor has always been prestigious. That's not the point.

I don't need to meet other countries' doctors. I can look at health outcomes around the world and see that the rest of the world has excellent healthcare despite (because?) the fact that their doctors don't have to put on a dog and pony show to get admitted.
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If you look at other countries with lax admission standards, usually they fail half their classes.

It's harder to get into a US MD program, but a lot easier to get through...
 
As a former Big Law associate, I can say your notions about a career in law are wrong, except for the starting salaries in Big Law.

1. If a cushy gov job seems good to you, then the DOJ and Big Law are not for you. You are on-call 24/7, 365 days a year.
2. Most gov jobs are for experienced Big Law attorneys.

As for medicine, given your LSAT score and physics performance, you will probably do very well on the MCAT. There's no reason why a highly motivated individual can't complete your basic science coursework, shadow, and take the MCAT within 4 semesters (i.e., 16 months).

You seem like a laid back person. Why not teach physics?
 
johnnydrama said:
Yup, I'm sorry, but delivering blankets and transporting patients has zero relevance to medical school.

Unless you're doing something real like volunteering as an EMT, it's just a checkbox.

To the OP - consider patent and IP law. One of the more interesting fields out there, and one for which your background would suit you well.

Medicine is good, but being a lawyer in the right field can be more interesting.

Don't go into law if you can't make it into one of the top 3, and I'd avoid Yale unless you want to be a law professor (great school but impractical, kind of true of their MD program as well).
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Zero relevance to medical school yes. Zero relevance to a career in healthcare...no. We could import the brightest 20 year old privately educated upper class from around the world and have a highly competent workforce. Which says nothing of the quality of interactions between those doctors their colleagues in other professions and their patients.

Your comparison of outcomes probably has less to do with the quality of doctors and more to do with the delivery systems. Or sanitation as you get the worse scenarios. Our heroic pyrotechnics are amazing but they are less of a mortality reduction than clean water or health care access. Or consistent prenatal care. Maybe less violence and drugs. My hospital rivals developing nation rates for premature births and infant mortality, symptomatic of the community ills not our doctors' skill. I'd put our maternal-fetal medicine docs against anybody in the world when faced with cocaine induced preeclampsia and the like.

It takes more than intellectual competence. We are taking care of people not solving diagnostic problems in isolation. Nothing like some stank on you from patient care experience to facilitate easy relatabilty to suffering people. The type of experience that let's you know you want to be there carrying out all the mundane activity of patient care and not the type that has you realizing you have no idea why you came this way.

Aside from it usefulness to others you owe it to yourself to know why you want to go through with the enormous effort, cost, and sacrifice of the training.
 
Abider said:
Zero relevance to medical school yes. Zero relevance to a career in healthcare...no. We could import the brightest 20 year old privately educated upper class from around the world and have a highly competent workforce. Which says nothing of the quality of interactions between those doctors their colleagues in other professions and their patients.
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No. Most volunteering has zero relevance to medical school and to the practice of medicine in general.

Volunteering for the sake of volunteering is good, but there are better places to do it than the ER. Volunteering to get into medical school is just mandated time wasting.

My time spent volunteering in the hospital was interesting (Seeing a helicopter land on the hospital? Awesome!), but completely irrelevant to anything later in my career.

Those other aspects of social intelligence and communication skills are better tested working as a waiter than as a hospital volunteer.
 
johnnydrama said:
No. Most volunteering has zero relevance to medical school and to the practice of medicine in general.

Volunteering for the sake of volunteering is good, but there are better places to do it than the ER. Volunteering to get into medical school is just mandated time wasting.

My time spent volunteering in the hospital was interesting (Seeing a helicopter land on the hospital? Awesome!), but completely irrelevant to anything later in my career.

Those other aspects of social intelligence and communication skills are better tested working as a waiter than as a hospital volunteer.
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Well yeah I kind of agree with you in the sense that it is social intelligence that we're both referring to. Where we differ is that one can gain insight into one's fit for medicine. My clinical experience was so extensive and my observational skill my only real talent that coming up with and vetting my career choices has largely been accomplished. Allowing me the long term opportunity to develop contacts in the way I am comfortable doing.

I'm not even a proponent of shadowing or volunteering for the exact reasons you're proposing. But for working in health care and being a useful member of the team. And using that proximity for introspection and reflection.

I know what kind of difference a doctor with social grace and intelligence can make to the functioning of a team. Because I've seen it work and not work a thousand times from a thousand different angles. Stuff no one ever asks or tests me on that I know as a fact of biblical certainty will be key to my eventual success when real rubber hits real road.

You're right in the sense that I can see which of my colleagues has the right touch in this regard and you're right that it is irrespective of their clinical background. What I disagree with you about is to what extent they know it for themselves and to what criteria an adcom officer should employ.

My rebuttal being that clinical experience is more accurate than physics performance for eventual realities with real people. They're not nearly radical enough in my opinion. In my system everyone becomes a medical corpsman first. Then applies for a medical OCS equivalent.
 
Keep in mind I'm not just talking about this nice guy vs smart guy type of false dichotomy. I just got a fiery babtism from a tough as nails surgeon. He was a master class in human motivational technique. I'm changed. He had the leadership skill of a west point grad.

I'm more referring to a sieve for the elimination of disruptive @ssholes. And about the utility of a self-learning module for a real match for this career. I know a dude who was so in love with the idea of himself as a surgeon who had no actual data with which to compare his delusion. I am currently witnessing his existential crisis as I enjoy surgery more than he does.

To OP. At all costs. Do not be this guy.
 
Abider said:
Keep in mind I'm not just talking about this nice guy vs smart guy type of false dichotomy. I just got a fiery babtism from a tough as nails surgeon. He was a master class in human motivational technique. I'm changed. He had the leadership skill of a west point grad.

I'm more referring to a sieve for the elimination of disruptive @ssholes. And about the utility of a self-learning module for a real match for this career. I know a dude who was so in love with the idea of himself as a surgeon who had no actual data with which to compare his delusion. I am currently witnessing his existential crisis as I enjoy surgery more than he does.

To OP. At all costs. Do not be this guy.
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Nothing you do as a volunteer in an ED will make you any more informed about these things.
 
johnnydrama said:
Nothing you do as a volunteer in an ED will make you any more informed about these things.
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Right. But if your just dickhead enough you might inform others of yourself. And by all means you should head up river. ED volunteers never leave Saigon.
 
Abider said:
Right. But if your just dickhead enough you might inform others of yourself. And by all means you should head up river. ED volunteers never leave Saigon.
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You're. Getting that right is more important to your career than volunteering in the ED.
 
johnnydrama said:
You're. Getting that right is more important to your career than volunteering in the ED.
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So...the people were mean to you in the ED? They didn't recognize your brilliance and grammatical mastery...?

Of all the hoops we have to jump through, you've picked this one. Ok...? Whatevs. <<<<I hope that bunches your panties.
 
Abider said:
So...the people were mean to you in the ED? They didn't recognize your brilliance and grammatical mastery...?

Of all the hoops we have to jump through, you've picked this one. Ok...? Whatevs. <<<<I hope that bunches your panties.
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Nope. It was just boring. Aside from making sure you don't faint at the site of blood, refilling the blanket warmer and transporting patients isn't vital clinical experience.
 
johnnydrama said:
Nope. It was just boring. Aside from making sure you don't faint at the site of blood, refilling the blanket warmer and transporting patients isn't vital clinical experience.
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I heard that adcomms recommended hospital volunteering to make sure they weren't going to admit anyone who would go into a hospital and faint/feel uncomfortable. Along with showing that you're you're a decent human being that's about all that amounts to.
 
I'm gonna go against my own credo and defer to an admissions authority.

See lizzy's post.

They don't want to admit people that don't like it. They routinely do. The academic measures don't prevent this.

The clinical experience component is a weak measure. Not because they measure it but because they're not rigorous with it. Maybe because it's just too vague to measure in the volumes their working with. I accept the imperfection.

But just because it's a weak measure doesn't make it good advice to tell someone deciding on the career to not investigate. So don't volunteer in the ED. I can't recall ever recommending that anyway.

But take lizzy's and DrML's advice and investigate and vet your interests in this career until you've matched and are happy with one. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain from investigating by whatever means you have available--shadowing, volunteering, working, whatever it takes.
 
johnnydrama said:
Nope. It was just boring. Aside from making sure you don't faint at the site of blood, refilling the blanket warmer and transporting patients isn't vital clinical experience.
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Innocent bystander here; but I have to say that you are missing the point, or you just missed the boat entirely.

If you were feeling closed and/or stifled in your volunteer experience, it would have been up to you to have changed it-- either by asserting more or by finding another ED or place in which to volunteer.


I guess I just disagree with you. Of course volunteering isn't some magic bullet, but it can give a person all kinds of insight...if they only let it.
 
jl lin said:
Innocent bystander here; but I have to say that you are missing the point, or you just missed the boat entirely.

If you were feeling closed and/or stifled in your volunteer experience, it would have been up to you to have changed it-- either by asserting more or by finding another ED or place in which to volunteer.


I guess I just disagree with you. Of course volunteering isn't some magic bullet, but it can give a person all kinds of insight...if they only let it.
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By necessity, you are limited as a volunteer in a hospital. It would be opening up the hospital to liability if you did anything too helpful.

If you can be a translator or a scribe that could be useful. Volunteering as an EMT is great too. All of those require training + certification.

But typical ER volunteering? Almost worthless. There are better places to volunteer where you can really help.

And for the record, all of this stuff I'm saying as a current physician. I think volunteers are even more limited now than when I did it.
 
notbobtrustme said:
Being a doctor has always been prestigious. That's not the point.
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To paraphrase Mr. Twain, reports of the prestigiousness of being a doctor are greatly exaggerated.

I don't need to meet other countries' doctors. I can look at health outcomes around the world and see that the rest of the world has excellent healthcare despite (because?) the fact that their doctors don't have to put on a dog and pony show to get admitted.
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In many countries, they just take a national exam and use it as the sole means to determine who's qualified for med school. How ironic it would be for a nontrad to advocate such a system, when applicants over age 30 are in aggregate the lowest performing age group in terms of MCAT and GPA. Alternatively, knowing the right people or paying the right people off is also a good way to get yourself into med school in many countries. Those of you with legacy ties in this country must be salivating at the thought.

What some of you don't get about clinical volunteering is that it's not all about you. Medical training or a career in medicine isn't about your self-actualization. If you're wanting to find yourself, go do like the OP and join the Peace Corps. Because if you want to be a physician in the full sense of the word, then you will often not be putting yourself first. Regularly taking one for the team should be the expectation, not the exception. There's a reason why some of the most competitive applicants are ex-military and Mormons and others whose background demonstrates a commitment to service and a strong group ethos.

Now some people chafe at the idea of subsuming their own desires to the needs of the group. They want to do their own thing and be their own person. You don't get to do that as a medical student. You don't get to do that as a resident, either. I'd go so far as to argue that there are few other systems out there that will hammer the nail that sticks out as hard as the medical training system will. And if you're too good to hand out a few blankets in return for being able to observe the way the medical world works, well, better to find that out now than in five or ten years. Because I still hand out blankets as a senior resident, and sometimes that's the most helpful thing I can do for a patient.
 
Pretty sure the OP is choosing law school now, after reading this thread.
 
johnnydrama said:
By necessity, you are limited as a volunteer in a hospital. It would be opening up the hospital to liability if you did anything too helpful.

If you can be a translator or a scribe that could be useful. Volunteering as an EMT is great too. All of those require training + certification.

But typical ER volunteering? Almost worthless. There are better places to volunteer where you can really help.

And for the record, all of this stuff I'm saying as a current physician. I think volunteers are even more limited now than when I did it.
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Yes, b/c of liability issues, things have changed.

I can remember back before I went to nursing school, a nurse and some docs in the ED that knew me let me observe a lot, and I helped with little things like EKGs. IDK.
Everything has really changed so much.

And it's different for me, b/c as a RN, I have had to learn and do a lot and maintain my own license, and certs after that.

A lot seems to be about gaining trust and confidence. Even experienced nurses are tried and vetted by many surgeons, other nurses, and docs in many critical care areas. It's how it rolls. Once you prove yourself to them, it's a different ball game.

EMT or ED tech would be better, yes. But even before I had an EMT or was a RN, I volunteered with the right people and saw a lot--very young (teen) and very impressionable. The first time I saw D-50 given to a comatose IDDM pt (She had been given insulin by her relatives with out them making sure she was eating.), I was utterly amazed. It was like watching a resurrection. :D

But even if things have changed, I think if you know some professionals on the inside that will sort of take you under their wing, well, the experiences will be better.
 
vc7777 said:
+10 000

The goal of the doctor is to cure sometimes and comfort always.

A hug and a bubble pack is what our attending did for the patients last night.
Click to expand...

I mean I get your point, but "curing" is much less often than most people realize--in reality. I'd say giving them great treatment, preventative health guidance, comfort, and, yes, sometimes cure.

I've had an ongoing thing with a few CT surgeons after recovering their CABG patients. They would say, "Hey. I cured him." I'd say, "You gave them bypass graphs, but you didn't cure what caused the CAD in the first place." One surgeon got a little miffed at me, and then came back and gave me a kiss. Man I have worked with some fun people. :)
 
jl lin said:
I mean I get your point, but "curing" is much less often than most people realize--in reality. I'd say giving them great treatment, preventative health guidance, comfort, and, yes, sometimes cure.

I've had an ongoing thing with a few CT surgeons after recovering their CABG patients. They would say, "Hey. I cured him." I'd say, "You gave them bypass graphs, but you didn't cure what caused the CAD in the first place." One surgeon got a little miffed at me, and then came back and gave me a kiss. Man I have worked with some fun people. :)
Click to expand...

It was a paraphrase of William Osler, to be exact. Yes your point is well taken. If anything, cures were even rarer back then when he said that compared to modern medicine. I am surprised that CT surgeons are so cavalier with the term. Was this said in front of patients or as a matter of lingual brevity used when "talking shop" - not that it is justified?

Edit: sorry there was a lively debate among two medical historians at my clinic about the origin, osler being one potential, but unlikely originator (also both thought it was not Hippocrates)
Sent from my phone
 
Last edited:
Law2Doc said:
we call this sexual harassment around here...
Click to expand...

Lawyered.

HIMYM_rabbit_or_duck_marshall.png
 
As diversionary tactic from surgery shelf study:

I see no difference in the trajectory of self-actualization and the increasing emphasis on service to others. Finding oneself in an activity that demands service, sacrifice, and complex social harmonics seems like a good life's work.

Especially as I prefer it, in the non-abrahamic conception, wherein the finding is process rather than objective. As if, an endeavor, peace corps or doctor or race car driver would be a terminal success.

The challenges of becoming/being a doctor are just as good as the bodhi tree.


Hmmmmphhhsttt....(here)

"There are a thousand ways to kneel and kiss the ground."
 
Last edited:
Abider said:
As diversionary tactic from surgery shelf study:

I see no difference in the trajectory of self-actualization and the increasing emphasis on service to others. Finding oneself in an activity that demands service, sacrifice, and complex social harmonics seems like a good life's work.

Especially as I prefer it, in the non-abrahamic conception, wherein the finding is process rather than objective. As if, an endeavor, peace corps or doctor or race car driver would be a terminal success.

The challenges of becoming/being a doctor are just as good the bodhi tree.


Hmmmmphhhsttt....(here)
Click to expand...

I like turtles.
 
vc7777 said:
It was a paraphrase of William Osler, to be exact. Yes your point is well taken. If anything, cures were even rarer back then when he said that compared to modern medicine. I am surprised that CT surgeons are so cavalier with the term. Was this said in front of patients or as a matter of lingual brevity used when "talking shop" - not that it is justified?

Edit: sorry there was a lively debate among two medical historians at my clinic about the origin, osler being one potential, but unlikely originator (also both thought it was not Hippocrates)
Sent from my phone
Click to expand...


Wow. Nah, I had extubated the patient, and he was exhausted, so he went to sleep.
Most patients are just so happy to get the tube out, once it's out, they are utterly thrilled. It was cool.
 
johnnydrama said:
Yup, I'm sorry, but delivering blankets and transporting patients has zero relevance to medical school.

Unless you're doing something real like volunteering as an EMT, it's just a checkbox.
Click to expand...

My wife is a surgeon now, and when she was in medical school, was a student member of her school's admission committee. She told me more or less the same thing. She then told me something I hadn't considered before: that I probably learned more about "what it's like" being a doctor being married to her than in any of the volunteering I had done. And the hell of it is, I think she's right. I now have seen what it's like being woken up in the middle of night to take pages, what you deal with supervising PAs, nurses, and residents, and having to leave your family in the middle of the night, or the middle of dinner, or whenever, to go back and take care of a patient. It's a side of medicine you'll never see volunteering in an ED, a clinic, or a hospital, and it's a lot more illuminating as far as what's in store for you. Anyway, the point, according to my wife, is to find some way to demonstrate to the admissions committee that you have some idea of what you're getting yourself into.

To the OP - consider patent and IP law. One of the more interesting fields out there, and one for which your background would suit you well.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I thought something similar when I was in law school: "hey, I have a biology degree, why not be a patent lawyer?" Then I took a patent-law class. zzzzZZZZZZzzzzz... Of course, YMMV, but for the most part the life of a patent lawyer is pretty boring. Until you get sued for malpractice because something went wrong and might cost your client a few million or billion dollars. Which is a kind of excitement you probably would rather skip.

The problem is, like medicine, there's not really a good way to "shadow" a lawyer to find out "what it's like" to be one. I'm an appellate lawyer now, mostly handling medical- and legal-malpractice appeals (on behalf of the doctors and lawyers, I'm always quick to remind my own doctors!), and if you shadowed me on my typical day, you'd probably try to hang yourself before lunch. Most of what I do is research and writing--there's a reason that with all of those lawyer shows on TV, there aren't any about appellate lawyers. If you went with me to arguments at the Court of Appeals or Supreme Court, it might be sort of interesting, but it's hardly that "typical" of what I do most days.

I can tell you this about law school, though: unless you are pretty sure you want to be a lawyer, and unless you can get in to a top-ten (or at least top-tier) school, I wouldn't bother. The job market is abysmal right now, and it's not getting any better any time soon. I don't really regret going, but as you can tell from my participation in this forum, the profession has kind of lost its luster for me.
 
Thanks everyone for your input! This has proven to be fruitful. While I have plenty of time to wait, I'll turn to these messages every so often to see how my perspectives have changed. It's unfortunate that we must bottle are careers down one pipeline (imagine those people in the past who could claim to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, and businessman all at once. But alas, the times have changed and with the vast amount of material that one must learn, people have to become specialist of a select career itself.

Well, again, thanks!
 
sinenomine said:
It's unfortunate that we must bottle are careers down one pipeline (imagine those people in the past who could claim to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, and businessman all at once.
Click to expand...

FWIW, in one of the malpractice appeals I handled, the firm who represented our client at trial was started by a couple of MD/JDs. Our client's trial lawyer was a guy who was a full-time emergency physician and a more-or-less full-time lawyer. So if you truly find yourself wanting to do both, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
 
SpaceLeftBlank said:
FWIW, in one of the malpractice appeals I handled, the firm who represented our client at trial was started by a couple of MD/JDs. Our client's trial lawyer was a guy who was a full-time emergency physician and a more-or-less full-time lawyer. So if you truly find yourself wanting to do both, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
Click to expand...

I'm not buying it -- one career of necessity was taking a back seat, or this person did a lousy job in both. Having had a good taste of both professions, I can assure you that if you aren't devoting full time to one or the other field you are doing a crappy job and running a huge malpractice risk on a near daily basis. Honestly the amount of reading one ought to be doing to stay informed in either field is pretty significant. There are no shortcuts and no such thing as dabbling. Both fields are full time obligations or you aren't keeping up with the normal expectations. I would steer clear of these guys.
 
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