WVSOM unfair to Muslims??

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miserableWV

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http://dailymail.com/News/200806270107
"Muslim student claims osteopathic school kicked her out unfairly


by Cheryl Caswell Daily Mail staff

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A Muslim woman has filed a lawsuit against the West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine and its Board of Governors, saying she was kicked out unfairly.
Iram Qureshi of Dublin, Ohio, is asking for a restraining order against the Lewisburg medical school so she can attend classes that begin next week while she appeals the decision.
Qureshi said she graduated with honors from Ohio State University in 2005 and enrolled at the osteopathic school the following August.
In her complaint, she said she was treated badly at the school from the beginning. She requested for religious reasons that she be assigned to work only with females during a lab that required chest and pelvic manipulation.
That request was denied, even though the president of Islamic Medical Association of North America spoke to the osteopathic school's associate dean on her behalf.
The same request was granted to other female students, she said.
Qureshi said the school has been "extremely unyielding" towards her and she encountered harassment and discrimination from faculty, staff and students. She said other students were "bullish and threatening" towards her when she notified faculty that some of them violated rules by obtaining an exam from a previous year.
The school also erred when it allowed her grades to be posted publicly, she said.
On June 20, Qureshi received a letter from Olen Jones Jr., the school of medicine's president, notifying of her dismissal. In the letter, Jones said her dismissal was recommended because she had had to repeat her first year and had failed two "systems" in her second year.
Qureshi said in her lawsuit that the dismissal did not allow time for her to appeal that decision in time to enroll in the next classes that begin June 30. She is asking for a preliminary injunction.
The case was filed in Kanawha Circuit Court and will be heard by Judge Tod Kaufman.
Dr. Jones did not return a phone call asking for a comment on the lawsuit."






I am interested in hearing peoples' thoughts:

1. Do you think its fair for a Muslim student to request certain sex lab partners when OPP to sensitive areas is to be performed?

2. Do you think this will bring a lot of bad press to the school? Or did you think that the school had a right to deny her religious request? (I believe the school does grant such requests for other Muslim females, but why she was denied specifically is quite peculiar and does make a case for her claim they were unfair to her, translating to lots of money for her)

3. Can someone perform medicine adequatly with such restrictions based on their religion?
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miserableWV said:
http://dailymail.com/News/200806270107
"Muslim student claims osteopathic school kicked her out unfairly


by Cheryl Caswell Daily Mail staff

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A Muslim woman has filed a lawsuit against the West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine and its Board of Governors, saying she was kicked out unfairly.
Iram Qureshi of Dublin, Ohio, is asking for a restraining order against the Lewisburg medical school so she can attend classes that begin next week while she appeals the decision.
Qureshi said she graduated with honors from Ohio State University in 2005 and enrolled at the osteopathic school the following August.
In her complaint, she said she was treated badly at the school from the beginning. She requested for religious reasons that she be assigned to work only with females during a lab that required chest and pelvic manipulation.
That request was denied, even though the president of Islamic Medical Association of North America spoke to the osteopathic school's associate dean on her behalf.
The same request was granted to other female students, she said.
Qureshi said the school has been "extremely unyielding" towards her and she encountered harassment and discrimination from faculty, staff and students. She said other students were "bullish and threatening" towards her when she notified faculty that some of them violated rules by obtaining an exam from a previous year.
The school also erred when it allowed her grades to be posted publicly, she said.
On June 20, Qureshi received a letter from Olen Jones Jr., the school of medicine's president, notifying of her dismissal. In the letter, Jones said her dismissal was recommended because she had had to repeat her first year and had failed two "systems" in her second year.
Qureshi said in her lawsuit that the dismissal did not allow time for her to appeal that decision in time to enroll in the next classes that begin June 30. She is asking for a preliminary injunction.
The case was filed in Kanawha Circuit Court and will be heard by Judge Tod Kaufman.
Dr. Jones did not return a phone call asking for a comment on the lawsuit."






I am interested in hearing peoples' thoughts:

1. Do you think its fair for a Muslim student to request certain sex lab partners when OPP to sensitive areas is to be performed?

2. Do you think this will bring a lot of bad press to the school? Or did you think that the school had a right to deny her religious request? (I believe the school does grant such requests for other Muslim females, but why she was denied specifically is quite peculiar and does make a case for her claim they were unfair to her, translating to lots of money for her)

3. Can someone perform medicine adequatly with such restrictions based on their religion?
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I'd like to hear the other side of the story but generally most OMM profs would have allowed her to switch partners. However, it sounds like she was kicked out for academic reasons (failing 2 systems) and I don't see how she can claim she was kicked out for religious reasons if that is really the case.
 
miserableWV said:
A Muslim woman ... was kicked out. On June 20, [Iram] Qureshi received a letter from Olen Jones Jr., the school of medicine's president, notifying of her dismissal. In the letter, Jones said her dismissal was recommended because she had had to repeat her first year and had failed two "systems" in her second year.
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So basically, she remitted and then failed two systems during her second year in the program, her "re-do" of her first year. If this is the case, it makes sense that she was let go.

As for religious reasons stating why she cannot do manipulation on male test subjects, I do not see why it would be unreasonable for the OMM Professor/Facilitator to have her switch partners. Although I understand it would benefit her to understand both male and female manipulation, if she wanted to switch then it should've been granted.

Her graduation from OSU in 2005 with honors plays no effect in this case, and neither does the "bullish students." If she were going to try to claim religious prejudice from that scenario, she should not have said that it was a result of her implicating her peers in a test scam.

All in all, it seems as if WVSOM had every right to dismiss her on her educational grounds. I wonder if she can somehow prove that her low grades were a result of religious bias and insensitivity.
 
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Medicine isn't about religion, it's about the patient. If you put anything in fron of the patients well being, including your own religion, then you just shouldn't be a doctor.

That said, you can still practice your religious beliefs in some ways. For instance, if you don't believe in abortion or birthcontrol, then you must refer your patient to someone who does-- without imposing your own views. OTOH, if a patient's religious views are interfering with the gold standard of treatment, it's your job to offer it to them, but then you ultimately have to respect their wishes.

In the case of a student, if not being able to touch or be touched by someone of the opposite sex is a requirement, then maybe she could have become something else. Medicine, by nature, is something that requires all five senses. Most schools have a statement that mentions they agree in theory with the person's with disabilities act, but you just can't be a doctor if you can't meet certain physical standards. It's a shame that someone who is deaf might not be able to become a doctor-- but how are you going to be able to diagnose your patients without hearing lung sounds or heart sounds? In the same manner, if she can't examine male patients, then maybe this just isn't the right profession for her. No one has the "right" to become a doctor.
 
In the same manner, if she can't examine male patients, then maybe this just isn't the right profession for her. No one has the "right" to become a doctor.
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Why? Couldn't she just become an OBGYN or go into Psychiatry or some other field that doesn't require that she touch male patients if she's sensitive to it?
 
As for #1, I do not think it would be fair for Muslim or any other students to be assigned to same sex partners during lab. There are plenty of female Muslim students who have successfully completed programs who I'm sure all have not been afforded this preference. I can see if you choose an area of women's health as your residency, but for your 3rd and 4th year you are going to be required to treat both men and women. If it an issue for the student not to be touched, the same argument could be made that they would not feel comfortable touching a man, which as a student of medicine is not feasible.

As a married woman, I have my own personal issues of being touched by other men during lab and vice-versa (and I'm sure my husband has his reservations as well :rolleyes:) but it comes with the learning and the job and we both have to deal with it as just that.

Like the above posters mentioned, this seems to be more of an issue with a student having difficulty in her classes, and blaming everyone else for her shortcomings, e.g. feeling mistreated by students who she feels benefited from cheating, having to repeat her first year, failing two systems in her 2nd year. The school has every right to choose when they decide a candidate will not successfuly complete the program and should be dismissed. Nonetheless, I still feel for her that she was dismissed, as I know this is most student's worse nightmare :(.

In her defense, I'm not sure why her grades were posted publicly, or why faculty let other students know who ratted them out about the exam, but you have to take this with a grain of salt given the source. She is obviously bitter against the program and may have given herself away.
 
In reference to #1, I think the problem (if true) is that she wasn't allowed to have only female partners while other females were.
 
I would just like to state ahead of time that in the instances where someone is able to save a life and/or heal someone, a muslim man and/or woman is allowed to have contact with the opposite sex. Thus she doesn't have much of a basis on religious grounds.

I believe that she is grasping for any way to get back into medical school after the undoubtedly horrifying experience of being dismissed.

They would probably have to send a court-appointed investigator to eke out all the information from both sides. I think both sides have erred on different accounts.
 
miserableWV said:
2. Do you think this will bring a lot of bad press to the school? Or did you think that the school had a right to deny her religious request? (I believe the school does grant such requests for other Muslim females, but why she was denied specifically is quite peculiar and does make a case for her claim they were unfair to her, translating to lots of money for her)
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The only kind of press is bad press, IMO. I could see this going to news channels across the country with religious groups speaking out every day. Does that mean that it was right to deny her religious request? Absolutely. As scpod mentioned, you cannot pick and choose who you work on as a physician. If she were doing her rotations, would she not touch her male patients in the areas described based upon religious beliefs? Sure, she could go into OB/GYN or Psychiatry, or maybe even Surgery, but for her to have a chance to become a physician, she should be able to preform all tasks that her classmates could preform at some adequate or minimum level.

I'm not looking to start a religious debate here, and I respect anyone who dedicates their spiritual life to such an endeavor. I don't see this as a religious attack or persecution by WVSOM in any way, shape, or form. Did she deserve to be removed from their educational facility? I'm sure they know better than we do. If she really did remit and then concequently fail two systems, then I would consider that a reason for dismissal.
 
I don't think we have been presented enough information here to make an accurate assessment.

Was she, in fact, denied the right to practice these particular OMM techniques on only female students when other students were not? And if so, why? It just doesn't make sense because the way it was worded makes it sound like she was singled out for some reason and it wasn't necessarily her religion.

Also, what does she mean by having her grades publicly posted? There is a huge difference between a school posting you name attached to grades and a school posting your grades listed next to an identifier known only to you (I had some profs do this).

Just too many unknowns. She sounds disgruntled for sure. The question is whether she was in trouble academically and is now turning it around to sound like a religious persecution thing. Maybe, maybe not. I think it will take some much deeper investigation to find out.

Anyway, to get to your questions:

1. Yes I think they should be able to request certain sex lab partners. Do I think they SHOULD exercise that right? No. I think it will ultimately make them a less-capable physician and if they have these kinds of moral restrictions, they probably shouldn't be going to a DO school anyway. That said... legally yes I think they should have that right. And no I don't think we should exercise every right we have just because it is available to us. I personally will never keep a gun in my home (scared of having my kids anywhere near them) but I recognize the rights of others to own guns. This is a personal decision. What I'm saying, basically, is that I think they should have the option, but if it were me, I wouldn't put myself into the position to have to choose (wouldn't apply to DO schools if I wasn't comfortable touching all types of patients).

2. I don't think most people will look down on the school.

3. Depends on the specialty. She could probably find something that fits her personal beliefs. But, as a man, I wouldn't really want her to be my phsyician if she wasn't comfortable with my anatomy.
 
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This is a very interesting case and very awkward. It's a torn loyalty between one's religion and one's profession.This is why it's very important to research a profession before you start.
I wonder why she didn't bring up her concerns during her interview before she got accepted.
 
I think, in the interest of being politically correct, many people overlook that this Muslim student is enrolled in an OSTEOPATHIC school. As a Muslim friend of mine at NYCOM told me years ago - no one is forcing you to attend the school. Just because you weren't smart enough to get into a US MD program (because really that's the issue here, isn't it?) doesn't mean that the osteopathic school has to bend over backwards for you. Whether you care for OMT or not, there are big differences in treating men and women using OMT, and it is unreasonable to expect that you will be competent by practicing only on women during your training.
 
jp104 said:
I'd like to hear the other side of the story but generally most OMM profs would have allowed her to switch partners. However, it sounds like she was kicked out for academic reasons (failing 2 systems) and I don't see how she can claim she was kicked out for religious reasons if that is really the case.
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I agree.

When I was a 1st and 2nd year osteo student, the Muslim ladies in the lab were allowed to always partner with females. I don't see a problem with that because OMM techniques aren't gender-specific, nor is OMM necessary to become a good doctor (MDs graduate without knowledge of OMM and many become almost as good doctors as DOs ;)).

Now, I don't know what those classmates of mine did for male genital/rectal exams. Again, as someone pointed out, examining males' pelvic area isn't necessary in most specialties. However, it seems somewhat unfair to have students "skip" some areas of medical training.

Anyway, there's a similar thread somewhere that deals with a paraplegic student and his desire to become a doctor (even without full use of his legs, and limited use of his arms).

There was a DO school a few years back that graduated a blind student, right? How about not having to go through histology and anatomy or anything that requires visual identification?

Regardless, the WVSOM's student position -I think- is greatly weakened by the fact she's being dismissed for failing two systems and not because of her refusal to practice on male partners.
 
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As for posting grades publicly, if there are no identifiers that can knowingly tie you to the grade, how is anyone supposed to know which one is yours? For example: If they used the last 6 digits of your student ID# and then listed grades associated with those ID #s on a piece of paper, are you going to know every other student's ID# and figure out which grades belong to which student? It is not uncommon to have such a practice in schools anymore. You don't get your exams back, you just check the posting with ID#s and grades. No names, just randomly assigned ID#s in numerical order (not even alphabetical so they can't use that to figure out what belongs to who).

And regarding the religious issue: we had muslim women in my class too. I know occassionally they requested pairing with a female, but most of the time they knew they'd have to learn how to do techniques on male patients too so they just dealt with it. And they also were required to test on randomly assigned partners - which could be male. No problems. They were fully aware that medicine involved both learning about BOTH sexes.

It sounds like she was dismissed for academic reasons. I hope the school stands their ground.
 
Eh. I think it seems like she is grasping at straws and using religion as an excuse in this situation. The world is an unfair place. Suck it up. Everyone is so quick to throw race cards, religion cards, and whatever else. I'm interested in what part of the Koran explicitly states that. I know that much of the stuff followed by more conservative muslims is not really mentioned in there. Its not like Christianity condones that kind of stuff either. Heck, if you're married, it is frowned upon to even THINK of sexual stuff with a person other than your spouse. I need a lot more information for this story, but it seems like she failed out and then tried to pin it on something unrelated. I just have a tough time feeling sympathetic with this crap lately. Did she honestly think she'd get to float through specific areas of the clinical years? Sorry, you're not getting by without your finger being up at least one bum or you hands wrapped around one set of balls. Just how it works. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
 
MossPoh said:
Sorry, you're not getting by without your finger being up at least one bum or you hands wrapped around one set of balls.
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I approve of this message. It is signature worthy!
 
Eh, this is fairly typical media drivel, trying to make something out of nothing with a one-sided point of view and absolutely no facts. Since we have no facts surrounding this case, until we do, it's probably best to leave it alone. However, I agree with the sentiment that this is probably the girl pulling the religion card to defend her academic dismissal, but it's hard to say without the facts, or at least the point of view of the school.

Also, did any one look at the S/N for the OP and think maybe he or she has an agenda, that maybe he/she is indirectly criticising his/her school by posting this drivel? Just throwing that out there.
 
It sounds like she just failed too much.

If this works out for her, I will convert to Islam the next day. That way, I won't have to work as hard in med school, or touch anyone's nasty junk.
 
I am disappointed by the response of osteopathic medical students stating that she is just bitter b/c she was dismissed. At WVSOM, many students are given preference if they have cozied up to the administration from day one. Honestly, those students will earn a 69% in a system and be rounded up to a 70% just to pass, while others (that I know) were told that their grades could not be rounded and that they would have to remediate. Therefore, the fact that she "failed" is completely subjective based on the Dean's personal view of the student, which of course, is not just or fair. Every WVSOM policy has a line that states something to the affect of, "The Dean has final say in all matters." What that means is, there are no policies, and the Dean has free reign to treat any student how he chooses; that isn't equality.

Also, at WVSOM, you are often threatened with retaliation by the administration if you speak out against them, therefore, she probably felt that if she spoke out sooner that she would risk getting kicked out (at that time) and being treated unfairly.

Let me also mention to you that the students who could have failed, but did not because they cheated, are members of the Student Government Association (the President), Class President, Vice President, and many Club Presidents. These students cozy up to the administration all that they can and put on a facade so that if something does come up, the admin will always side in their favor. These are the same people that when asked face-to-face have the same concerns about the school as every other student, but yet they "play the game" for their own benefit. Also, she was not the only student that was harrassed by the administration after telling them about the Class of 2010 cheating scandal, therefore, I think we may be hearing from those students soon (they also have letters (hard evidence) from either Dr. Olen Jones or Dean Michael Adelman threatening and berating them).

I emplore you all to have an open mind about this case and the fact that this world is not all "sunshine and kittens," and that hate, bigotry, and inequality exist everywhere. Why is it that you could not fathom that the school could be at fault and that her accusations are only the tip of the iceburg.

I think we will all see much more come to light about WVSOM as the case progresses; there are many (WVSOM) students outraged by the way this school handles its academics. I genuinely believe that others will feel that they have a voice because this one woman was willing to stand up and speak out.
 
WVSOMStdntDr said:
I am disappointed by the response of osteopathic medical students stating that she is just bitter b/c she was dismissed. At WVSOM, many students are given preference if they have cozied up to the administration from day one. Honestly, those students will earn a 69% in a system and be rounded up to a 70% just to pass, while others (that I know) were told that their grades could not be rounded and that they would have to remediate. Therefore, the fact that she "failed" is completely subjective based on the Dean's personal view of the student, which of course, is not just or fair. Every WVSOM policy has a line that states something to the affect of, "The Dean has final say in all matters." What that means is, there are no policies, and the Dean has free reign to treat any student how he chooses; that isn't equality.

Also, at WVSOM, you are often threatened with retaliation by the administration if you speak out against them, therefore, she probably felt that if she spoke out sooner that she would risk getting kicked out (at that time) and being treated unfairly.

Let me also mention to you that the students who could have failed, but did not because they cheated, are members of the Student Government Association (the President), Class President, Vice President, and many Club Presidents. These students cozy up to the administration all that they can and put on a facade so that if something does come up, the admin will always side in their favor. These are the same people that when asked face-to-face have the same concerns about the school as every other student, but yet they "play the game" for their own benefit. Also, she was not the only student that was harrassed by the administration after telling them about the Class of 2010 cheating scandal, therefore, I think we may be hearing from those students soon (they also have letters (hard evidence) from either Dr. Olen Jones or Dean Michael Adelman threatening and berating them).

I emplore you all to have an open mind about this case and the fact that this world is not all "sunshine and kittens," and that hate, bigotry, and inequality exist everywhere. Why is it that you could not fathom that the school could be at fault and that her accusations are only the tip of the iceburg.

I think we will all see much more come to light about WVSOM as the case progresses; there are many (WVSOM) students outraged by the way this school handles its academics. I genuinely believe that others will feel that they have a voice because this one woman was willing to stand up and speak out.
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That doesn't seem like something you all tell your incoming students about, does it? Don't you think that this is something your incoming students would want to know?
 
Well, as I said in my previous post, we don't have all the facts of the story here, to either substantiate or dismiss her claim. The media is hardly a reliable source. Whatever the truth happens to be, I hope it comes out. I'm not going to side with someone's cause if I don't know what I am dealing with. Also, I'm not going to participate in tarnishing a school's name from a simple news story. Let's hear the facts, then I'll tell you where I stand.
 
muslims are supposed to refrain from physically contacting members of the opposite sex whenever possible, but there is an exception when it comes to urgent/vital situations like medicine. a female can be seen by a male doctor, a female doctor can see male patients, etc. but if physicians of both genders are available, it should be arranged that physician sees a patient of the same gender.

so since OMM lab isn't an urgent situation, and because it is possible to practice with another person of the same gender without too much trouble, muslim individuals would prefer it to be set up that way. however, this should not keep them from learning and periodically practicing OMM on the opposite gender, since obviously, there will be some differences in technique.

bottom line is that the religion of the physician should not impede the proper treatment of the patient.

it just seems odd that other muslim females were granted their request while this particular student was not, so there's probably some more information about the situation that we would need to know about before making any judgements.
 
I doubt we can perceive the bigger picture from the piece of article we all read.

"In her complaint, she said she was treated badly at the school from the beginning. She requested for religious reasons that she be assigned to work only with females during a lab that required chest and pelvic manipulation.
That request was denied, even though the president of Islamic Medical Association of North America spoke to the osteopathic school's associate dean on her behalf.
The same request was granted to other female students, she said.
Qureshi said the school has been "extremely unyielding" towards her and she encountered harassment and discrimination from faculty, staff and students. She said other stude"

DCOM OMM faculty will process any religious, medical circumstances to facilitate your lab time. I believe that is the case in all osteopathic schools..we live in the 21st century and people realize things aren't black and white. She might be resentful about something unrelated to her complaint and is simply not explaining her case honestly. However, the school might have misinterpreted her request or she might have been overzealous about her expectations about schools helping her out in specific situations. Its one of the things that really ruins anyone's reputation that is if you are unwilling to "accept a mistake"...even if she felt hostile, i am pretty sure her situation was dealt in closed doors to come to a resolution. However, there must be an igniting event to have a blow up of this kind...its 2 years people just abide to authority and most of the time don't expect the world to do you a favor...things happen but you ought to find a way to stay afloat. At least in my opinion medicine doesn't have barriers and you should be willing to do anything medically required despite of your religious, ethical , cultural beliefs. I don't want a doctor who tells me that they won't treat BPH because their church, mosque, temple won't let them to...simply unreasonable.
 
well, im two sided on this issue.

first, she seemed to do bad in class. thats her problem, lack of studying, not prepared, etc. i can see the school dissmissing herb ecause of these failures during the school year.

As far as female partner, if one wants one it should be allowed. sure it would be better to practice on both, but we cannot judge religion or certain preferences. with that being said, im sure that OMM proffesors would allow them to switch if there is something that is the bothering them by practicing on the opposite sex, or come to a compromise that if a manipulation involves a part of the body that she feels uncomfortable with, she can switch with a temp. partner for that manipulation training.

i mean we are all becoming doctors here, we should be smart enough to understand that people are all different religions and races and alot of their upbringing and religious rules prohibit some things in life, especially in the islamic religion and a lot of middle eastern cultures. My fiance is middle eastern from iraq but christian and has similar ethics as others from the middle east, including muslim.

what does it matter to any other osteopathic student if a fellow student requests a female partner? It should mean nothing to us, we should be more worried about our success in medical school then others, help the other students when and if we can, but we should be worried about ourselves rather than what others do.

As far as the girl in the article, power to her if she wants to have a female partner for personal preferences, but don't expect to hurt the schools image because you failed twice during the school year.
 
ellinopedo182 said:
well, im two sided on this issue.

first, she seemed to do bad in class. thats her problem, lack of studying, not prepared, etc. i can see the school dissmissing herb ecause of these failures during the school year.

As far as female partner, if one wants one it should be allowed. sure it would be better to practice on both, but we cannot judge religion or certain preferences. with that being said, im sure that OMM proffesors would allow them to switch if there is something that is the bothering them by practicing on the opposite sex, or come to a compromise that if a manipulation involves a part of the body that she feels uncomfortable with, she can switch with a temp. partner for that manipulation training.

i mean we are all becoming doctors here, we should be smart enough to understand that people are all different religions and races and alot of their upbringing and religious rules prohibit some things in life, especially in the islamic religion and a lot of middle eastern cultures. My fiance is middle eastern from iraq but christian and has similar ethics as others from the middle east, including muslim.

what does it matter to any other osteopathic student if a fellow student requests a female partner? It should mean nothing to us, we should be more worried about our success in medical school then others, help the other students when and if we can, but we should be worried about ourselves rather than what others do.

As far as the girl in the article, power to her if she wants to have a female partner for personal preferences, but don't expect to hurt the schools image because you failed twice during the school year.
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That makes sense, but I think the argument presented is that eventually through your medical career you will have to come into a very close, intimate contact with a member of the opposite gender and have to be comfortable with that. You cannot pick and choose your patients while on rounds or during observations. While certain specialties exist that allow you to only deal with the intimacies of a single gender, the training of a medical student still requires them to know about all faculties of both men and women.

From the perspectives we've been given here, it seems that the Muslim religion does not promote members of the opposite gender to touch certain regions of the body outside of a committed relationship (i.e., marriage). However, in times of pain, suffering, and bodily harm, a person is granted "permission" to deal with this problem to heal another individual. While OMM is not necessarily "healing" in the direct sense of the word, it is training its students to possibly heal their patients or diagnose their patients later in their life.

Should she have been given special permission? If members of her class were, then yes, but overall my sentiment is no. We all will or have been uncomfortable dealing with a member of the opposite gender. Going into medical school, and specifically OMM, we, as adults, understand that our training and teachings will allow us to later address a patient's needs in our fullest capacity. Will I be comfortable when pelvic palpation arises during OMM and I must practice on fellow female classmate? Of course not! I will, however, understand that it is required of me, just like it is required of all of my other fellow classmates, current and future, to learn, understand, and demonstrate to my facilitators.
 
ellinopedo182 said:
well, im two sided on this issue.

first, she seemed to do bad in class. thats her problem, lack of studying, not prepared, etc. i can see the school dissmissing herb ecause of these failures during the school year.

As far as female partner, if one wants one it should be allowed. sure it would be better to practice on both, but we cannot judge religion or certain preferences. with that being said, im sure that OMM proffesors would allow them to switch if there is something that is the bothering them by practicing on the opposite sex, or come to a compromise that if a manipulation involves a part of the body that she feels uncomfortable with, she can switch with a temp. partner for that manipulation training.

i mean we are all becoming doctors here, we should be smart enough to understand that people are all different religions and races and alot of their upbringing and religious rules prohibit some things in life, especially in the islamic religion and a lot of middle eastern cultures. My fiance is middle eastern from iraq but christian and has similar ethics as others from the middle east, including muslim.

what does it matter to any other osteopathic student if a fellow student requests a female partner? It should mean nothing to us, we should be more worried about our success in medical school then others, help the other students when and if we can, but we should be worried about ourselves rather than what others do.

As far as the girl in the article, power to her if she wants to have a female partner for personal preferences, but don't expect to hurt the schools image because you failed twice during the school year.
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You are missing the point..you will always be granted your request to work with same sex partner. Idk why she claims to be denied of such a non conflicting desire..like people said we need to await further clarification. However, your other point about "i mean we are all becoming doctors..." , you should understand that in a patient's pov religion, cultural beliefs apply 110 percent and you better make sure you are accomodating their interests. When it comes to doctors, i can't stress enough how imp it is to have a broad mindset and not let ones religion in their way of practicing medicine thus compromising your patient's care. So hope everyone sees that if your patient doesn't want to be in a gown you need to listen but as future doctors we better be ready to put that gown yourself...
 
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BCLumas said:
That makes sense, but I think the argument presented is that eventually through your medical career you will have to come into a very close, intimate contact with a member of the opposite gender and have to be comfortable with that. You cannot pick and choose your patients while on rounds or during observations. While certain specialties exist that allow you to only deal with the intimacies of a single gender, the training of a medical student still requires them to know about all faculties of both men and women.

From the perspectives we've been given here, it seems that the Muslim religion does not promote members of the opposite gender to touch certain regions of the body outside of a committed relationship (i.e., marriage). However, in times of pain, suffering, and bodily harm, a person is granted "permission" to deal with this problem to heal another individual. While OMM is not necessarily "healing" in the direct sense of the word, it is training its students to possibly heal their patients or diagnose their patients later in their life.

Should she have been given special permission? If members of her class were, then yes, but overall my sentiment is no. We all will or have been uncomfortable dealing with a member of the opposite gender. Going into medical school, and specifically OMM, we, as adults, understand that our training and teachings will allow us to later address a patient's needs in our fullest capacity. Will I be comfortable when pelvic palpation arises during OMM and I must practice on fellow female classmate? Of course not! I will, however, understand that it is required of me, just like it is required of all of my other fellow classmates, current and future, to learn, understand, and demonstrate to my facilitators.
Click to expand...

everyone has a good sense of understanding, and they are right in their own way. but, as I stated, I am sure that most muslim females that ask for a female partner gets one. either this girl is stretching the truth, or the administration knows her and has something against her, maybe grades, maybe attitude, IDK, but i still believe that if she asks for it she should be granted it. Or at least go to an osteopathic school that allows these special situations, i have been on interviews and I have seen MANY female muslim women ask about the way they conduct OMM and if they allow change of partner if they are uncomfortable, and all the schools I have been to have said yes and they have a special method just for these situations.

I have also been in situations in the ER where the female patient was in scrutinizing pain, but refused any treatment from a male doctor. I was not even allowed into the room, either were any of the male nurses and doctors.

I still think the best way to get around this is to try to get the female patient practice OMM on males to a point where she moves from comfortable to an uncomfortable situation, then switch with a female for that special training. Most OMM does not include uncomfortable touching, but when it does, i think they have the right to ask for a same sex partner. In my case, i may feel weird not having a female partner :D but for the philosophy of osteopathy, i'll practice on both. ;)

but in reality, i think this is a case of a girl who couldnt make it in medical school. these cases with females requesting female partners happens every day in osteopathic schools, this case just seems to be a bit fishy and i think it will come out sooner or later.
 
ellinopedo182 said:
but in reality, i think this is a case of a girl who couldnt make it in medical school. these cases with females requesting female partners happens every day in osteopathic schools, this case just seems to be a bit fishy and i think it will come out sooner or later.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Lamborghini1315 said:
You are missing the point..you will always be granted your request to work with same sex partner. Idk why she claims to be denied of such a non conflicting desire..like people said we need to await further clarification. However, your other point about "i mean we are all becoming doctors..." , you should understand that in a patient's pov religion, cultural beliefs apply 110 percent and you better make sure you are accomodating their interests. When it comes to doctors, i can't stress enough how imp it is to have a broad mindset and not let ones religion in their way of practicing medicine thus compromising your patient's care. So hope everyone sees that if your patient doesn't want to be in a gown you need to listen but as future doctors we better be ready to put that gown yourself...
Click to expand...

i was expecting this rebuttle. you are right. as doctors we should be able to put aside our beliefs for the practice. but, i am saying is that we should be able to understand their pov too, and because we are going to be doctors we should have a better understanding of the situation at hand. i did study islam and judaism in college, and when i studied in Rome, so i can relate to religions and where they are coming from. I think as doctors, understanding cultures and religion will make us better physicians. Just because you are trying to become a physician and are a muslim-female, does not mean that you should have that priveledge taken away from you because you feel uncomfortable being touched in specific parts of the body during OMM manipulation. The student could definitely done the MD route if they had the ability if they did not like the situations that OMM puts you in but that still doesn't mean that they should be in a situation where they wont allow them to practice on a female partner.

As much as we argue about this, the bottomline is that we have rights and though it would be beneficial for the student and their patients for everyone to learn on both sexes OMM, it's not always going to happen and we need to respect that.

I think that since we are not yet in that situation, we cannot comment fairly on the situation at hand. But, most importantly, when the time comes, you should think of yourself and what you think is best for you to succeed in medical school and help those that are in need of it. This does not mean to be competitive and try to outdo everyone else in a low manner, but to care about yourself and not judge others for how they live and their morals. (I also have a minor in bioethics so...)
 
There are many Muslim DO's in America in all specialties, Male or Female and they all had to go through OMT to get there.

As a Muslim DO student I am prepared to learn anything and everything it will take for me to help my patient in the future. I guess it all comes down to your personal Islamic beliefs, if you believe touching opposite gender, even for medical purposes is wrong, well thats your choice. I think there is more to this story then we know, either she has a personal vendetta against the school or maybe she WAS treated unfairly.

I can't really say how the inner workings/politics of WVSOM are, but I was very impressed by the school and its facilities while I was there. Only thing they need to do is lower that OOS tuition LOL.
 
BCLumas said:
Agreed.
Click to expand...

its the truth, i can see if she got dismissed because she would not practice on a male in OMM, but after failing two systems... what are you expecting. Being curtious and getting to know the administration also helps and if they see you as someone that complains rather than trying to figure out a compromise that both the administration and the student is willing to accept... well what were you expecting. I dont know if the last phrase is the case with this student, but after filing a lawsuit in this manner, i feel that this may be her character.



BTW, I am not trying to put down anyones remarks in any of my posts, these are just things i feel and how i see things as a moral human being, and as I respect your comments I hope you have the same respect in mine.
 
So just curious.... say a female requests a female partner for OMM..... and the other female is a lesbian. Is she obligated to tell her? I would think her objection to working with a man would also apply to working with a gay woman.
 
desijigga said:
There are many Muslim DO's in America in all specialties, Male or Female and they all had to go through OMT to get there.

As a Muslim DO student I am prepared to learn anything and everything it will take for me to help my patient in the future. I guess it all comes down to your personal Islamic beliefs, if you believe touching opposite gender, even for medical purposes is wrong, well thats your choice. I think there is more to this story then we know, either she has a personal vendetta against the school or maybe she WAS treated unfairly.

I can't really say how the inner workings/politics of WVSOM are, but I was very impressed by the school and its facilities while I was there. Only thing they need to do is lower that OOS tuition LOL.
Click to expand...

true, thats why i feel we are not getting the whole story.
 
MedStudentWanna said:
So just curious.... say a female requests a female partner for OMM..... and the other female is a lesbian. Is she obligated to tell her? I would think her objection to working with a man would also apply to working with a gay woman.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that anyone should have any say in who their OMM partner is, for any reason. In a hospital setting, we will have no say in who our patients are. Its time that we get ****ing used to it.
 
Is that the standard in most schools, If you fail 2 systems you are booted?
I thought they usually put you on academic probation or something in that regard.
 
desijigga said:
Is that the standard in most schools, If you fail 2 systems you are booted?
I thought they usually put you on academic probation or something in that regard.
Click to expand...

From what I understand, if you "fail" some classes during a year you are remitted and held back a year to re-take those courses. If you then fail again, you are dismissed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
I don't understand...is she planning on never seeing a male patient in her career?

I suppose if she doesn't like it she can always go study medicine back in her native country where she may be able to get away without ever touching an opposite sex patient. I don't think it's fair for any student to get out of certain parts of training because of special reservations. We all have to do a male exam sometime you know...it's not any more pleasant for me to be feeling up another dude's coin-purse, but you deal with it professionally and with respect. It's part of your general training, no matter what specialty you plan on pursuing later.
 
http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/islamic-medical-group-seeks-to-educate-about-faiths-guidelines/
The above link has primarily stuff that is a good guideline for muslim health practitioners. In addition, ellinopedo said it best that it is important to gain a better understanding of other cultures and religions in order to accord our future patients with the best healthcare.

I will post other sites in future edits if I find anymore.

Edit: http://www.ildc.net/islamic-ethics/

A more in-depth view on the guidelines.
 
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BCLumas said:
From what I understand, if you "fail" some classes during a year you are remitted and held back a year to re-take those courses. If you then fail again, you are dismissed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Every school has their own policy, in writing, regarding failures, retakes, etc. Our school will allow you to pay a fee and take another exam if you are only a few points shy of passing a course. If you are farther than that, they may require you to remediate the entire year. In any case, you have to go before a committee and they decide your fate.

I know a couple of students who were dismissed for failing more than on course They were given the option to appeal. All of them who appealed were offered the chance to retake a final exam, and if they passed they could continue on with the class. If they failed, they were allowed to retake the first year. One student, that I know of, elected not to appeal and dropped out. A couple passed and are still in m class. A couple are in the class behind me now.

The people I've talked to who went through first year all over again were told that they would be dismissed for ANY failure whatsoever after that. However, I know that at least one student who failed one class while repeating the tear, but not by much, and was still allowed to take the final over. It surprised me, but I really think that they want you to succeed. According to the written rules, they didn't have to do that....but they did.

I would not be surprised if she had just appealed the decision and would have been given a chance to make up the work somehow. Instead, she chose to get a lawyer and call the media. I guess we'll never know now. Yet, if I were in her shoes, I might have done the same thing out of desparation. I just don't know.
 
scpod said:
Every school has their own policy, in writing, regarding failures, retakes, etc. Our school will allow you to pay a fee and take another exam if you are only a few points shy of passing a course. If you are farther than that, they may require you to remediate the entire year. In any case, you have to go before a committee and they decide your fate.

I know a couple of students who were dismissed for failing more than on course They were given the option to appeal. All of them who appealed were offered the chance to retake a final exam, and if they passed they could continue on with the class. If they failed, they were allowed to retake the first year. One student, that I know of, elected not to appeal and dropped out. A couple passed and are still in m class. A couple are in the class behind me now.

The people I've talked to who went through first year all over again were told that they would be dismissed for ANY failure whatsoever after that. However, I know that at least one student who failed one class while repeating the tear, but not by much, and was still allowed to take the final over. It surprised me, but I really think that they want you to succeed. According to the written rules, they didn't have to do that....but they did.

I would not be surprised if she had just appealed the decision and would have been given a chance to make up the work somehow. Instead, she chose to get a lawyer and call the media. I guess we'll never know now. Yet, if I were in her shoes, I might have done the same thing out of desparation. I just don't know.
Click to expand...

So I wasn't totally off. Thanks for that, scpod.
 
WVSOMStdntDr said:
Also, at WVSOM, you are often threatened with retaliation by the administration if you speak out against them, therefore, she probably felt that if she spoke out sooner that she would risk getting kicked out (at that time) and being treated unfairly.

Let me also mention to you that the students who could have failed, but did not because they cheated, are members of the Student Government Association (the President), Class President, Vice President, and many Club Presidents. These students cozy up to the administration all that they can and put on a facade so that if something does come up, the admin will always side in their favor.
Click to expand...

These are very, very serious allegations that I trust you have hard proof for. I strongly suggest that you refrain from making such accusation in such a public forum, especially since it is known that adcoms read these forums, as this is a very private matter between the accuser and the accused which schools have very, very specific protocols.
 
Hurricane95 said:
I don't understand...is she planning on never seeing a male patient in her career?

I suppose if she doesn't like it she can always go study medicine back in her native country where she may be able to get away without ever touching an opposite sex patient. I don't think it's fair for any student to get out of certain parts of training because of special reservations. We all have to do a male exam sometime you know...it's not any more pleasant for me to be feeling up another dude's coin-purse, but you deal with it professionally and with respect. It's part of your general training, no matter what specialty you plan on pursuing later.
Click to expand...

I like how you assume she must be a citizen of some other country just because she's Muslim. Your post lost all credibility beyond that line. Try to break out of that bubble once in a while.
:sleep:
 
DrA said:
I like how you assume she must be a citizen of some other country just because she's Muslim. Your post lost all credibility beyond that line. Try to break out of that bubble once in a while.
:sleep:
Click to expand...
No it didn't. That was the wrong assumption for he/she to make, but every other point made in that post is valid.

By going to an osteopathic medical school, you must be open to the idea that there may be at least some validity to OMM, and that it may have a place in medical treatment. So by going to a school where it is taught, and then refusing to perform certain techniques only with classmates of one gender, a student is purposefully limiting his or her medical education.

Furthermore, if you have problems with this aspect of freaking OMM lab, what are you going to do when you have to do a physical exam in rotations, or check a rectal tone of a trauma patient? Are you going to refuse if the patient isn't the same gender as you?

Guess what. I don't want to stick my fingers in some meth addict's crudded-up hootie during an OB/GYN or ER rotation. Not because its against my religion, but because its ****ing gross. But guess what. As a future physician, my job is to advocate for my patients, so I'm going to suck it up and do whatever is asked of me.

If WVUSOM has allowed anyone at all to limit their OMM practice to members of only one gender, it is irresponsible of them. The fact that anyone would even ask for this is baffling to me, given our futures in the field. At the very least, we should look at OMM lab as a good experience for getting comfortable with touching patients.

Fortunately, I know that this is not the actual teaching of Islam, rather, just an excuse for failure, made by a disgruntled student. There are lots of good Muslim doctors, some of whom I have worked with, and I would feel comfortable with any of them treating me in an emergency, because they did not fail out of medical school.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
No it didn't. That was the wrong assumption for he/she to make, but every other point made in that post is valid.

By going to an osteopathic medical school, you must be open to the idea that there may be at least some validity to OMM, and that it may have a place in medical treatment. So by going to a school where it is taught, and then refusing to perform certain techniques only with classmates of one gender, a student is purposefully limiting his or her medical education.

Furthermore, if you have problems with this aspect of freaking OMM lab, what are you going to do when you have to do a physical exam in rotations, or check a rectal tone of a trauma patient? Are you going to refuse if the patient isn't the same gender as you?

Guess what. I don't want to stick my fingers in some meth addict's crudded-up hootie during an OB/GYN or ER rotation. Not because its against my religion, but because its ****ing gross. But guess what. As a future physician, my job is to advocate for my patients, so I'm going to suck it up and do whatever is asked of me.

If WVUSOM has allowed anyone at all to limit their OMM practice to members of only one gender, it is irresponsible of them. The fact that anyone would even ask for this is baffling to me, given our futures in the field. At the very least, we should look at OMM lab as a good experience for getting comfortable with touching patients.

Fortunately, I know that this is not the actual teaching of Islam, rather, just an excuse for failure, made by a disgruntled student. There are lots of good Muslim doctors, some of whom I have worked with, and I would feel comfortable with any of them treating me in an emergency, because they did not fail out of medical school.
Click to expand...

I never disagreed with the above. But when one makes such a naive point, I am uninterested in the remaining of the post. Thanks for repeating what has already been said though.
 
DrA said:
I never disagreed with the above. But when one makes such a naive point, I am uninterested in the remaining of the post. Thanks for repeating what has already been said though.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that if someone says or does something that is wrong, or that you don't agree with, then everything that person says is automatically wrong? Have you ever agreed with everything that anyone says? Have you never said something stupid, just because you opened your mouth before you gave it some thought?

Yes, I know that is the standard thing to say on the internet: "your post LOST ALL CREDIBILITY AFTER THIS POINT..."

I am just pointing out how ******ed it is to say that.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
So you're saying that if someone says or does something that is wrong, or that you don't agree with, then everything that person says is automatically wrong? Have you ever agreed with everything that anyone says? Have you never said something stupid, just because you opened your mouth before you gave it some thought?

Yes, I know that is the standard thing to say on the internet: "your post LOST ALL CREDIBILITY AFTER THIS POINT..."

I am just pointing out how ******ed it is to say that.
Click to expand...

And I am just pointing out how “******ed” it is to have such a simplistic train of thought and implied lack of awareness and appreciation for anything different and new. I know that is the standard thing to say “GO BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY”. Did it ever occur to him/her that this could be her country? Did it ever occur to him/her that if there was a country to go back to, that the freedom of choosing what gender to work with may not exist there either? Nope.
Not that I have to explain myself to you as you are obviously policing this thread, but it is not that I automatically disagreed with the rest; I just didn’t care to finish reading it or give any weight to it.
 
miserableWV said:
http://dailymail.com/News/200806270107
"Muslim student claims osteopathic school kicked her out unfairly


by Cheryl Caswell Daily Mail staff

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A Muslim woman has filed a lawsuit against the West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine and its Board of Governors, saying she was kicked out unfairly.
Iram Qureshi of Dublin, Ohio, is asking for a restraining order against the Lewisburg medical school so she can attend classes that begin next week while she appeals the decision.
Qureshi said she graduated with honors from Ohio State University in 2005 and enrolled at the osteopathic school the following August.
In her complaint, she said she was treated badly at the school from the beginning. She requested for religious reasons that she be assigned to work only with females during a lab that required chest and pelvic manipulation.
That request was denied, even though the president of Islamic Medical Association of North America spoke to the osteopathic school's associate dean on her behalf.
The same request was granted to other female students, she said.
Qureshi said the school has been "extremely unyielding" towards her and she encountered harassment and discrimination from faculty, staff and students. She said other students were "bullish and threatening" towards her when she notified faculty that some of them violated rules by obtaining an exam from a previous year.
The school also erred when it allowed her grades to be posted publicly, she said.
On June 20, Qureshi received a letter from Olen Jones Jr., the school of medicine's president, notifying of her dismissal. In the letter, Jones said her dismissal was recommended because she had had to repeat her first year and had failed two "systems" in her second year.
Qureshi said in her lawsuit that the dismissal did not allow time for her to appeal that decision in time to enroll in the next classes that begin June 30. She is asking for a preliminary injunction.
The case was filed in Kanawha Circuit Court and will be heard by Judge Tod Kaufman.
Dr. Jones did not return a phone call asking for a comment on the lawsuit."






I am interested in hearing peoples' thoughts:

1. Do you think its fair for a Muslim student to request certain sex lab partners when OPP to sensitive areas is to be performed?

2. Do you think this will bring a lot of bad press to the school? Or did you think that the school had a right to deny her religious request? (I believe the school does grant such requests for other Muslim females, but why she was denied specifically is quite peculiar and does make a case for her claim they were unfair to her, translating to lots of money for her)

3. Can someone perform medicine adequatly with such restrictions based on their religion?
Click to expand...

First of all, there is nothing wrong with dealing with "chest and pelvic manipulation" of males as long as it deals with medicine. The girl should've known that by entering the medical field, she'd be exposed to many different things, some of which might disgust her, but it's okay to conduct various types of examinations on males because it relates to medicine.

I'm Muslim myself and I don't know why this girl requested to have same sex partners during OMM lab. Many female Muslim doctors have done this before, and there is nothing in Islam that says that she cannot do this because all in all, it deals with the practice of medicine and such activities are necessary to gain knowledge in the field. There is absolutely nothing wrong with physically touching and dealing with members of the opposite sex in any way if it pertains to medicine.
 
its a bunch of a bull... more abuse by someone who knows that crying foul using the words religious discrimination will get a lot of attention. sure they should have allowed her to have female only partners because the fact is there are Muslims out there who want doctors who are also Muslims, so we do want Muslims to be respected and graduate so they can serve their own, but at the same time, it looks like she was let go for academic reasons. the idea that they ALL bullied her is bunch of blow-hard non-sense that i dont believe for 1 second.
 
WVSOMStdntDr said:
I emplore you all to have an open mind about this case and the fact that this world is not all "sunshine and kittens," and that hate, bigotry, and inequality exist everywhere. Why is it that you could not fathom that the school could be at fault and that her accusations are only the tip of the iceburg.

I think we will all see much more come to light about WVSOM as the case progresses; there are many (WVSOM) students outraged by the way this school handles its academics. I genuinely believe that others will feel that they have a voice because this one woman was willing to stand up and speak out.
Click to expand...

She still failed a minimum 3 classes. That is grounds for dismissal anywhere in the US. Doesnt matter if she got 3 69.9s. 3 grades below the passing mark is just not adequate.

It is really sad that she is using the religious discrimination card. It is hard for me to even think of an instance where religious persecution could have made her fail at least 3 courses in M1/M2.
 
BCLumas said:
So basically, she remitted and then failed two systems during her second year in the program, her "re-do" of her first year. If this is the case, it makes sense that she was let go.
Click to expand...

It's even worse. It looks like she failed her first year, then was asked to repeat it entirely... successfully remediated her first year, then she failed two systems during her actual second year. I checked the academic calendar of that school, and their third year is the only one that starts June 30th (rest start in August), and it looks like she wants the injunction so she can start her clerkships.

- What was the cheating scandal?
- Were only her grades posted publicly?

Pulling the islam card is a clear last-ditch effort to salvage her medical education. Also, warning students of academic peril (which no doubt happened over these past 3 years) does not constitute bullying. I wish someone could pull up this lawsuit and post it here.

(on a side note, that school's sense of ergonomics is quite refined!... their auditorium looks like it's filled with Herman Miller aeron chairs! except tuition alone is a ridiculous $50k a year -- in west virginia (?!?))
 
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