A professor of anesthesiology from the Univeristy of Mississipi comments on us DOs

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CatsandCradles

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An anesthesiologist at the Univeristy of Alabama comments on our profession.

I recently had the opportunity to listen to AOA president John A. Strosnider, DO when he visted WVSOM from the Kentucky school...and he seemed very against what George Mychaskiw, DO, one of the chairs of anesthesiology from the Univeristy of Missisippi is trying to suggest here.

Go ahead and give the letter a read. I don't think Strosnider is interested in what Mychaskiw is trying to suggest. I get the feeling there is a war in the osteopathic profession between those who want to stay primary care orientated vs those who want to go all out on the specialty fields.

It seems as if on one side you have Strosnider who is dead set against any change and will not negotiate with osteopathic physicians who went to an allopathic residency program, and those who are advocating that the AOA try to bring back those "lost sheep" or so I once heard.

After listening to Strosnider speak at our school I don't think he's willing to negotiate on any of the points Mychaskiw raises.

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/5/252

JAOA • Vol 106 • No 5 • May 2006 • 252-302

Will the Last DO Turn Off the Lights?
GEORGE MYCHASKIW, II, DO, Vice Chairman, Professor of Anesthesiology, Surgery, Pediatrics, and Physiology/Biophysics
Department of Anesthesiology, University of Mississippi School of Medicine Jackson, Miss

To the Editor:

I have read with interest the continuing debate concerning osteopathic graduate medical education (GME) and the future of the osteopathic medical profession.1–12 My story in relation to this debate is not unique. In fact, I think it is typical of the majority of graduating osteopathic physicians.

As a medical student in 1986, I was advised, "Go to the best residency you can find, regardless of whether it has an allopathic or osteopathic affiliation." I selected an internship and residency with an allopathic affiliation, knowing that I was obtaining quality GME while sacrificing practicing in states in which an American Osteopathic Association (AOA)-approved internship and AOA certifying board examination are required for licensure. My rotating internship at the Hospital of St Raphael in New Haven, Conn, and my subsequent residency at the Yale-New Haven Hospital were not approved by the AOA. Thus, I was unable to take part 3 of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME) licensing examination (the precursor to the Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination–USA). Instead, I took the allopathic Federal Licensing Examination.

The "inadequacy" of my clinical training in the eyes of the AOA prohibits me from being licensed as an osteopathic physician in those states that require an AOA-approved internship and the NBOME exam. Nevertheless, I function quite well today in an entirely allopathic world. Although I have maintained my AOA membership and I try to be active in the Mississippi Osteopathic Medical Association, I am invisible in the eyes of the AOA, except for my yearly membership dues check.

Were the experience I describe here limited or isolated, it would not be important. However, I believe that my experience is typical of today's graduating osteopathic physicians, many of whom choose to enter allopathic GME programs.13 If we are all invisible to the AOA, what does this say for the future of the osteopathic medical profession? If there were a nationwide initiative today similar to the one that offered conversion of doctor of osteopathic medicine (DO) degrees to doctor of medicine (MD) degrees in California in the 1960s,14 how many DOs would be left?

In my view, there are several factors that, if not corrected, will ultimately result in the death of the osteopathic medical profession as we know it. These factors include the following:

Failure to objectively evaluate the quality of osteopathic GME. It is interesting to note that the growth of osteopathic undergraduate medical education has been inversely proportional to that of filled GME positions—such that there are now more osteopathic internships available than there are graduates willing to fill them.15 As the number of AOA-accredited hospitals shrinks, more and more osteopathic residencies are served in allopathic medical institutions.13,16,17 These residency programs may or may not have dual accreditation by the AOA and the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME).
In addition, osteopathic GME programs tend to be in relatively small facilities, which may be sufficient for osteopathic residents in primary care programs but not for residents in other specialties. For example, the complexity of an anesthesiology residency requires the presence of a large tertiary- or quaternary-care medical center. Indeed, the ACGME Residency Review Committee limits anesthesiology residency training in small hospitals by requiring residents to serve substantial amounts of time in complex critical care environments.18 These kinds of allopathic training programs do not need dual accreditation.

The ACGME is also moving toward integrating internships into the residency continuum.18 Although this will happen slowly, it is a sure sign that the traditional rotating internship is going away. Whether this is a good thing is highly debatable. It is, nevertheless, going to happen.

For many graduating osteopathic medical students then, there is no real choice but to enter residencies at large allopathic medical centers if they wish to pursue specialties in areas other than primary care. (Even primary care may be better taught in the large medical centers.)

Having highly trained subspecialists is important to the future of the osteopathic medical profession. If we remain satisfied with only primary care physicians, the allopathic medical profession will view DOs as little more than glorified nurse practitioners. The osteopathic medical profession needs to embrace osteopathic subspecialists, regardless of their residency affiliations.

Inadequate and nonrigorous osteopathic specialty board certification processes. In the casual opinion of many in the allopathic world, the AOA specialty boards are widely considered to be "easier" and less credible than the allopathic certifying boards. I previously thought that this attitude was just "sour grapes" on the part of the allopathic medical profession. During the last several years, however, I have concluded that this MD opinion of the AOA boards may be accurate. I have personally encountered several osteopathic physicians who, after completing allopathic residency training, were unable to pass the allopathic board examinations—though they were able to pass the osteopathic board exams with ease. In all of these cases, these osteopathic physicians were viewed by their allopathic colleagues as unworthy of board certification.

The allopathic boards are the gold standard for residency training certification. Following my medical training, I had no intention of pursuing anything but this credible and universally accepted credential. The AOA needs to seriously re-evaluate its board-certification process.

Overemphasis of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT). It may be heresy to put this forth, but OMT is vastly overemphasized by the AOA. The practice of OMT is important in osteopathic medical education and in the practices of some osteopathic physicians, but it is not necessary for many other osteopathic physicians. Osteopathic medicine and osteopathic principles do not start and end with OMT.

The steadfast position of the AOA regarding the practice of OMT is as shortsighted as if the American Medical Association were to hold digital subtraction angiography as one of the foundations of allopathic medical practice. The AOA needs to realize that, in and of itself, OMT does not make one an osteopathic physician. A true osteopathic philosophy of practice is a far deeper thing, involving a holistic, patient-centered approach to care and excellence.

Our residency training program at the University of Mississippi School of Medicine seeks out and actively recruits osteopathic medical graduates not because of their abilities in OMT, but because we know that they are consistently exemplary residents who can be relied on to provide our patients with safe, thorough, and compassionate care. Indeed, most of our chief residents, who are selected for their clinical and administrative skills, have been DOs. This has nothing to do with their abilities to perform OMT. In my practice of pediatric cardiac anesthesiology, I do not use OMT. I do, however, practice osteopathic medicine, and I believe that I offer my patients a philosophy and method of care that compares favorably with that offered by allopathic physicians.

I consider my patients to include the parents of the children to whom I am administering an anesthetic for high-risk procedures. If anything is a hallmark of an osteopathic physician, I believe it is a compassionate, holistic, and respectful approach to caring for our fellow human beings—coupled with an honest appraisal of the limitations and potential of pharmaceutic, surgical, and osteopathic interventions.

Failure to welcome all osteopathic physicians. Those of us DOs who trained in allopathic GME programs and who practice in the allopathic world are increasing in number and may very well be the majority of practicing DOs in the United States. We are proud of our profession and identity, though we are largely ignored by the AOA. We are successful clinical and academic practitioners and leaders in many fields. It is foolish for the AOA to treat us as if we do not exist. The AOA should take the "big tent" approach to the osteopathic medical profession and welcome all DOs as active participants with emotional investment in the success of the profession.

I suggest that the AOA create a committee to explore these issues and find ways to welcome back the DOs, like myself, who love the profession more than it loves us.


This is the reality. If the situation I've described in this letter does not change, there will be fewer and fewer DOs involved in the AOA and in national advocacy of osteopathic medicine. In time, DOs and the AOA will disappear entirely, leaving the DO degree as an academic curiosity—or as an MD degree with different letters behind the graduate's name.


Follow up letter by Mychaskiw:

GEORGE MYCHASKIW, II, DO, Vice Chairman and Professor of Anesthesiology, Surgery, Pediatrics, and Physiology/Biophysics
Department of Anesthesiology University of Mississippi School of Medicine Jackson, Miss

I very much appreciate Dr Reeves' thoughtful comments regarding my letter in the May 2006 issue of JAOA—The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association. I am pleased to know that his experience with the American Osteopathic Board of Neurology and Psychiatry has been favorably different from my experiences with the American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesiology. It is not unreasonable to expect that there will be substantial variation among the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) specialty boards, especially given the low numbers of physicians certified by these boards in some specialties.2 In this regard, the standards of the member boards of the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS), the organization that represents allopathic medical specialty boards,3 may be more consistent than those of the corresponding osteopathic boards—simply because of the large number of allopathic physicians in practice.

Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to definitively answer the question of osteopathic vs allopathic specialty board quality, because no systematic head-to-head comparison has ever been performed. Thus, we are left with anecdotal reports, including those illustrated by Dr Reeves and me.
The large number of allopathic residency positions, coupled with a dwindling number of osteopathic hospitals and fewer filled osteopathic residency positions, makes the ABMS certification the de facto standard.4–6 Dr Reeves is quite correct that sole osteopathic board certification may be a hindrance in the allopathic academic world. Even more disturbingly (based on personal communications I've had with leaders in many allopathic medical schools), the DO degree—in and of itself—is a hindrance in an academic career. These attitudes are changing and not universal among allopathic institutions, but the tiny number of DOs who are department chairs or deans in allopathic medical schools testifies to the veracity of the generalizations.
Following the publication of my letter in the May 2006 JAOA, I was gratified to receive numerous letters from DOs around the United States expressing solidarity with and support of my views. Most of these letters were from specialists and subspecialists in such areas as pediatric neurosurgery, histopathology, and neurology. To a one, they all expressed doubts about osteopathic graduate medical education (OGME) and certification, frustration with the AOA and the "official" osteopathic world, and a deep support for and belief in osteopathic medicine, despite the fact that few of them practice osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) in their practices.
The strength and future of the osteopathic medical profession lie in the continued undergraduate education of competent, caring, and superior osteopathic physicians. A cadre of highly trained specialists and subspecialists is essential in this endeavor. We cannot, nor should we even try to, compete against the programs in massive allopathic medical centers that have large patient volumes, sophisticated and expensive technologies, and substantial research funding. Rather, I believe we should encourage graduates of colleges of osteopathic medicine to enter these allopathic programs. These student DOs could then go on to demonstrate the quality of osteopathic medical education, pass the ABMS boards, and return to the AOA and the osteopathic medical profession, making us all stronger in the process. In the specialties beyond primary care, it is difficult to make a case for the existence of separate osteopathic board examinations.

I have corresponded with John A. Strosnider, DO, the current president of the AOA, about these matters. I am once again calling on the AOA to open a dialogue with osteopathic physicians who have trained in and function in the allopathic world. We support our profession and its philosophy—not for political reasons—but because it represents good patient care. But we need to do a better job in letting the general public know that we are not just family doctors, but also pediatric cardiac anesthesiologists, neurosurgeons, histopathologists, and cardiologists.

The May 20, 2006, cover of Newsweek magazine featured a photograph of Richard Jadick, DO, with the huge, blaring title, "He Saved 30 Lives in One Battle—Hero M.D.—The Amazing Story of the [Iraq] War's Most Fearless Doctor."7 Of course, the title should have read, "Hero D.O." Although Newsweek got his medical degree wrong, Dr Jadick stands as an example of the strength and future of osteopathic medicine. When Dr Jadick conducts battlefield surgery in Iraq, he is not using OMT, but he is still practicing osteopathic medicine. Similarly, when I administer anesthesia to a neonate undergoing surgery for hypoplastic left heart syndrome or when my DO neurosurgical colleague is clipping an aneurysm, we are not using OMT but we are still practicing osteopathic medicine. Isn't it finally time for us to all come together?

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Mychaskiw is 100% right.
 
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It's too bad that everyone can't read his words, namely those sitting as administrators of the AOA.
 
As an MD-trained DO subspecialist, I couldn't agree more. He is 100% spot on.
 
Well stated. 👍
 
It's too bad that everyone can't read his words, namely those sitting as administrators of the AOA.

You don't get to be an administrator of the AOA without resisting change to an extreme degree. Unfortunately, we all have a few classmates who buy into that and I have no doubt that they will be the future close minded adiminstrators of the AOA.
 
Does this article make anyone else a little concerned about entering the DO profession? It seems that all of his points are the ones that people on SDN are constantly defending. And yet, a lot of people seem to agree with this article? Just curious about others thoughts.
 
I agree and always have. When I read this article in the JAOA a few months ago; it was nice to know that there are physicians that feel the same way about the AOA that I and many other students feel.
 
Dr. Mychaskiw is 100% correct, but don't expect that an organization whose president advocates that its medical schools accept less qualified candidates just because they happen to have a particular philosophical bent to agree. Oh, that and demanding that you sign your name as OMS.

In the end, the solution is going to be massive DO membership in the AMA and withholding support from the AOA. It will mean taking two sets of boards, but that's a small price to pay to freedom in your career in the future. Eventually, the AOA will shrink to the point that it's little more than a speciality organization for OMT and that will be a good thing for DOs everywhere.
 
Dr. Mychaskiw is 100% correct, but don't expect that an organization whose president advocates that its medical schools accept less qualified candidates just because they happen to have a particular philosophical bent to agree. Oh, that and demanding that you sign your name as OMS.

In the end, the solution is going to be massive DO membership in the AMA and withholding support from the AOA. It will mean taking two sets of boards, but that's a small price to pay to freedom in your career in the future. Eventually, the AOA will shrink to the point that it's little more than a speciality organization for OMT and that will be a good thing for DOs everywhere.

I'm already an AMA member. The president came to our school during my 2nd year and told us that no one in our class would ever even get into medical school if it wasn't for DOs and our school. That no one was worthy of a seat anywhere else😡 That about finished off my AOA days.
 
I'm already an AMA member. The president came to our school during my 2nd year and told us that no one in our class would ever even get into medical school if it wasn't for DOs and our school. That no one was worthy of a seat anywhere else😡 That about finished off my AOA days.

Whoa! What the Fr*#*kk *ss*#shee*tt*kindaBS#%*bull***is*that*honky*mofo*#@cgrazin*@an*l#$twiddler*#wha*???
😡 (note: this rant is in jest)

So, the President of the AOA came to your school and basically said that there is no way your entire class could ever hope to have gotten into an MD school and become a physician, so be thankful for DO schools!?

Sure DO is a bit easier on average to get into than MD, but geez, what an arsevoid! And what a great way to instill pride in your profession, as well as appear as the head of the profession. I would sure hope that the extreme majority chose DO for other reasons than that, anyway.


If I ever meet him: He is getting a wedgie! (disclaimer: I do not actually wish to handle his undergarments)

I really love quite nearly everything about DO, EXCEPT I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with the professional organization. AOA: What a MESS!!
 
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Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to definitively answer the question of osteopathic vs allopathic specialty board quality, because no systematic head-to-head comparison has ever been performed. Thus, we are left with anecdotal reports, including those illustrated by Dr Reeves and me.
The large number of allopathic residency positions, coupled with a dwindling number of osteopathic hospitals and fewer filled osteopathic residency positions, makes the ABMS certification the de facto standard.4–6

This is obviously a display of opinion and not fact. The large allo residency numbers vs "dwindling" osteo residency numbers does not necessarily make osteopathic board certification subpar.


Dr Reeves is quite correct that sole osteopathic board certification may be a hindrance in the allopathic academic world. Even more disturbingly (based on personal communications I've had with leaders in many allopathic medical schools), the DO degree—in and of itself—is a hindrance in an academic career. These attitudes are changing and not universal among allopathic institutions, but the tiny number of DOs who are department chairs or deans in allopathic medical schools testifies to the veracity of the generalizations.

Another sample of Dr. Mychaskiw's anecdotal experiences. As admitted by Dr. Mychaskiw before, until a "sytematic head-to-head" comparison is not made these apparently "correct" assertions will not cease to be nothing more than anecdotes. In the mean time, it is wise to remember that for each anecdote similar to this one there may be also an anecdote more similar to Dr. Reeves and perhaps ones with even more positive outlooks.
 
As an anesthesia intern at an allo program, I definitely identify with this. Ill never use OMT in practice (although it will help guide my critical thinking, especially as it pertains to pain services) and I would have been forced to sacrifice my number one program in order to do an AOA-approved internship. I pay my AOA dues and am a 'member', but they have pretty much tried to shaft me at every turn (PE exam, AOA-approved internship, etc.) That isnt exactly the way to keep us in the fold.
 
This is obviously a display of opinion and not fact. The large allo residency numbers vs "dwindling" osteo residency numbers does not necessarily make osteopathic board certification subpar.

If you assume the osteopathic training programs to be subpar relative to the allopathic ones, then it is only natural that you would suspect the board certification process to be subpar also.

However, the quote was about ABMS being "the standard", I believe more for numbers sake (fewer AOA spots for more and more grads) than for quality.
 
If you assume the osteopathic training programs to be subpar relative to the allopathic ones, then it is only natural that you would suspect the board certification process to be subpar also.

If in fact ostoepathic training programs were subpar, you could make the case that their certification process "most likely" would also be subpar. The keyword being "most likely"/"probably"/"etc" but not necessarily. They continue to be assumptions made based on anecdotal experiences and not on fact.


Also, while Dr. Mychaskiw points to a lack of subjective evaluation of the quality of DO GME, he never clearly states what makes it, in his opinion, of less quality. He does mention the smaller size of most osteopathic programs and how some residencies are better off at larger training sites. However, he does not unequivocally prove that this is not just another popularly accepted opinion. In my opinion, until clear standards of what a "quality" program are not agreed upon throughout the medical community, such claims will continue to be debatable as Dr. Mychaskiw himself mentions.


However, the quote was about ABMS being "the standard", I believe more for numbers sake (fewer AOA spots for more and more grads) than for quality.

Agreed. The statement, however, was made while also mentioning the training program quality issue, therefore, I felt the unsolicited need to separate one from the other. 🙂
 
this "beef" stemming from AOA towards his allopathic brother is purely political- i say let's convert all DO's to MD (ost)....😀
 
I have to agree with mychaskiw's letter ... I think strosnider is a bit out of touch with the DO community, and students in particular. I don't get it- the DO's fought for the right to attend allopathic residencies in his generation, and now it seems that DO's become almost excommunicated from the AOA/osteopathic community for being certified by acgme. I think strosnider just needs to be more realistic because from what I'm gathering from reading this board and from talking to students in my class-- most people would tend to disagree with him. Remember that we are the future of the profession... though I have to say that I don't think DO -->MD will ever happen, and I don't think it should. Separate topic anyway.
 
Dr. Mychaskiw suggests that the traditional rotating internship is going away and whether this is a good thing is debatable. I plan to do the rotating internship if it still exists in 2011 because my father did one (albeit allopathic) and believes it was a mistake for the AMA to do away with it. I think AOA should be given some credit for retaining a requirement which makes for more well-rounded physicians.

Dr. Mychaskiw also asserts that he and his colleagues are good osteopathic physicians despite having discarded OMT from their practice. Well, I guess he's welcome to his opinion, and there certainly is a je-ne-sais-quoi quality about the D.O. world, both medical school and beyond, that is different from its allopathic counterpart.

However I wonder how much of that humanistic compassion is missing from allopathy simply because allopathy is bigger, more competitive, more academic, and more research-oriented. It's like the guy from a small town saying his people are friendlier than the people in New York City--it seems that way on the surface, but in fact New Yorkers can be the friendliest people on earth once you get past the gruff exterior. The fact that there are 10x more M.D.s (give or take) means there will be 10x more jerks as well as 10x more brilliant people in the allopathic community; it's simple bell curve demographics and has little correlation to osteopathy per se. Plus, allopathic schools tend to be in big cities literally speaking hence perhaps they have a big city atmosphere, while osteopathic schools tend to be in laid back smaller towns, with a few exceptions (AZCOM, CCOM, Western). Add to this that a lot of M.D.s, especially the younger set, are plenty compassionate and humanistic and interested in complementary and holistic remedies and would resent being told that they're not.

So if we control for compassion, what is left that distinguishes osteopathic medicine? A slightly more holistic attitude? Emphasis on primary care? Body-mind-spirit? These are fuzzy concepts. Lots of M.D.s are into body-mind-spirit, too. What's left is OMT. I'm going into osteopathy because of OMT and I intend to use it in my practice and to advocate for its use more broadly. Harvard Medical School has begun offering an OMT workshop to its students--they're not exactly going osteopathic, but this is a huge endorsement by a major mainstream allopathic school. OMT is what distinguishes D.O.s in a concrete way from their M.D. colleagues and if we lose OMT, we become M.D.s. That's what I think is wrong with Dr. Mychaskiw's reasoning. I'm sure he's a fine anesthesiologist and administrator and even advocate of osteopathy, but he's doing nothing to help the survival of osteopathy as a distinctive branch of American medicine.
 
So if we control for compassion, what is left that distinguishes osteopathic medicine? A slightly more holistic attitude? Emphasis on primary care?

Why isn't this enough? Especially the distinction on primary care. Nearly all DO schools (no matter how many or few primary care students they send to residencies) are more primary care oriented than MD schools on the whole. Thus, there is a greater percentage of DOs that end up in primary care fields than MDs.

Thus, since there is an expected physician shortage, especially in the primary care fields, DOs are filling a huge need in the medical world. Why doesn't this singular difference differentiate DOs enough for people to realize that a huge need is being met by DO schools?

Why does the differentiating factor between MDs and DOs always have to be OMT??? It's really almost reminds me of religions. There are numerous Christian faiths, with many of them claiming that one is superior to other (some even believing that only their faith will lead to eternal life), even though they are all firmly based in the same fundamental beliefs. They each claim that their individual, minute differences are what sets them apart. When in reality, this is all ridiculous and just serves to lead to further contention. That being said, that shouldn't lead to the negation of multiple faiths, because they all do serve a purpose for the people that attend them.

I guess my point is that there doesn't have to be over-arching, ginormous difference between our schools and MDs that states to the world that we are different and separate. No, we are NOT identical to MDs, but at the same time we're not so wholly different that we need to shout it from the rooftop and point to it as an "edge" in the medical world. People will continue to see DO physicians and students will continue to populate the schools. Ultimately, that should be what matters.
 
I'm getting ready to begin my osteopathic education and I couldn't agree more with Dr. Mychaskiw. The medical profession shouldn't be about the letters behind your name.
 
You can't practice in certain states if you complete an allopathic affiliated residency? Which states states license you ONLY if you complete an AOA approved internship or residency?
 
You can't practice in certain states if you complete an allopathic affiliated residency? Which states license you ONLY if you complete an AOA approved internship or residency?
 
You can't practice in certain states if you complete an allopathic affiliated residency? Which states states license you ONLY if you complete an AOA approved internship or residency?
the residency has nothing to do w/ it regarding those 5 states...only the internship must be AOA or "approved"....there are many different routes to go to fill that requirement and several ways around it....as long as you are smart about it there should be no problems and your training is not extended by an extra year
 
the residency has nothing to do w/ it regarding those 5 states...only the internship must be AOA or "approved"....there are many different routes to go to fill that requirement and several ways around it....as long as you are smart about it there should be no problems and your training is not extended by an extra year


What are the 5 states?
 
Harvard Medical School has begun offering an OMT workshop to its students--they're not exactly going osteopathic, but this is a huge endorsement by a major mainstream allopathic school. OMT is what distinguishes D.O.s in a concrete way from their M.D. colleagues and if we lose OMT, we become M.D.s.
i love this *****ic AOA-blinded way of thinking...think about it...Harvard isn't adequate enough to train you because the docs there are so inferior to those at any/every DO residency (the first laughable fallacy) BUT THAT SAME PROGRAM is a major mainstream, top-quality, respected, world recognized program that finally validates OMT to the rest of the world...
OMT does not set us apart...most of what we learn is also taught at Chiro and PT programs...the rest (ie: cranial) is a total mockery of medicine and common sense...
The biggest difference between the two professions is that some DO's think they are better than everyone else and due to this antiquated, self-imposed inferiority complex dedicate their lives to offending as many as possible...while others physicians continue to improve medicine for the rest of us, most oblivious to the ranting and ravings of immature doctors clamoring for respect...
 
As a second year osteopathic student, I've realized something in the last year regarding the DO vs. MD thing. I kept hearing the rumors of how MDs see us as substandard docs (or future docs in my case). I personally have never met any resistance with the MD's I am friends with or have met. However, if I were an MD and had heard some of the claims that our DO professors had said, I would be pretty upset. On more than two occasions, I've heard practicing DO's say they are superior to MD's. It wasn't an inferred thing either. Statements like "and that's why we're better than MD's" have negative effects on the students who hear it, especially if they believe it. Being "better" than someone at a given job/task has to do with how much you know and how hard you work, not the initials behind your name. Do's like the ones above are half the problem. If you as a DO go around making statements like that just b/c you have a holistic approach and you use OMT, it's no wonder that MD's don't like you. I'm not trying to get a big argument started here (and I do see the benefit in a holisitic approach and OMT), I'm just trying to point out that it's a two-way street and part of the problem with not being accepted is that we go around saying we're better b/c of some techniques we learned, or, in Mychaskiw's case, we're not accepting of each other.
 
do you have to do an osteopathic internship to be able to train at an alopathic institution in Michigan or Pennsylvania. I heard from some people that during residency you are required to obtain a training license, not an official license, but a license you need to go through residency training. Does anyone know whether the osteopathic internship is required for this license as well and if this is going to create a problem if i try to pursue an alopathic residency in one of those 5 states without doing the osteopathic intership. My understanding is that the osteopathic internship is required for obtaining an official state license in those 5 states but does it also apply to the training license during residency.?????
 
i love this *****ic AOA-blinded way of thinking...think about it...Harvard isn't adequate enough to train you because the docs there are so inferior to those at any/every DO residency (the first laughable fallacy) BUT THAT SAME PROGRAM is a major mainstream, top-quality, respected, world recognized program that finally validates OMT to the rest of the world...
OMT does not set us apart...most of what we learn is also taught at Chiro and PT programs...the rest (ie: cranial) is a total mockery of medicine and common sense...
The biggest difference between the two professions is that some DO's think they are better than everyone else and due to this antiquated, self-imposed inferiority complex dedicate their lives to offending as many as possible...while others physicians continue to improve medicine for the rest of us, most oblivious to the ranting and ravings of immature doctors clamoring for respect...

I think some people would dispute your conclusion. As for chiro/PT, these programs are not nearly as broad or deep as a complete medical education, nor are they particularly selective in admissions.

Osteopathic physicians who use OMT have the best of both worlds. MD's are missing the human touch. Adding human touch to the mix makes a physician more complete, in my opinion.

They should offer OMT at every medical school, not just osteopathic schools. Maybe then the distinction would blur sufficiently that AOA would indeed become redundant and should at that future time merge with AMA. Furthermore, OMT techniques would be validated by research schools with deep pockets and those techniques that are invalid would be discarded.

I hope they don't get rid of cranial sacral, though; it's pretty amazing. I hope when I'm an MS4 at AZCOM I won't have become so cynical about such treatments.
 
I think some people would dispute your conclusion. As for chiro/PT, these programs are not nearly as broad or deep as a complete medical education, nor are they particularly selective in admissions.
i'm just talking about OMT classes...i totally agree with the fact that they don't get the level of path/pharm/micro we get...
as for being cynical...just wait...they'll start telling you that cranial fixes everything...diagnosing brain tumors with your hands- who needs a CT/MRI...altering the mutations in down syndrome...they start turning down the lights and blowing all this "if you just believe you will feeeeeel" crap...this is medical school not hogwarts!!! (sorry, i couldn't resist the harry potter reference)
When you are asked what is the best treatment for sepsis a)Fluids b)Antibiotics c)Cranial manipuation and the answer is...you guessed it...the CV4 you start to feel a little acrimony... I sincerely think my cynicism is rooted in the fact that i thought OMT was going to be more than it is...
 
[they start turning down the lights and blowing all this "if you just believe you will feeeeeel" crap...this is medical school not hogwarts!!! (sorry, i couldn't resist the harry potter reference)


Hehe. I remember during my first semester a fourth year telling me that a cranial "expert" came to our school and said she could feel the pulsations of CSF and electrostatic energy by placing her hand above, but not touching, the cranium and various parts of the body. I found out when I was 8 that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy, but they're still trying to teach it to us.
 
I believe in the statement above in the letter. Sometimes I feel that the AOA sometime hinder's DO students from achieve what they worked hard to achieve. I was anesthesia for a while and wanted to go to U of M. U of M changed their program to a 4 year program with the internship, however, I could not apply due to the fact I was a DO in Michigan, who has to do an AOA approved internship, so I wouldn't be able to even apply to U of M for anesthesia. I called U of M and they told me they tried to get AOA approved, but had a hard time and just gave up since they are a top medical school and ACGME approved, they figured it wasn't worth the effort anymore due to the hoops they needed to jump through. I changed my mind from anesthesiology, however, its still a backup in the long term future, if I don't get into my top residency specialty choice since I loved ICU stuff as well. However, I'm choosing DO only route for residency now for the specialty I'm entering, however, I would go allopathic for anesthesiology cause there are 7 programs...why would I limit myself when there are more than 50 allopathic anesthesia programs that would gladly accept me if I didn't rotate at their hospital. In the DO world I found that I had to rotate more to get an interview rather than my academic marks.

In response, DON'T LEAVE THE AOA...I would still continue membership and try to be active...if all the people get upset and leave, the AOA will always be the same group of the "good old DOs who preach about pride in teh profession, I'm a DO and I'll always have pride, however, currently its more disappointment since I didn't know that this occurs. I got into both allopathic and osteopathic schools when I was applying however, I felt that I'd fit in better in the DO world"...in order to change something you need to stick with it and move up in their system over time...that's the only way change will occur if you suffer to make it better for everyone else in the future. My viewpoint is more equality and fairness, I don't get stuck on the old ways of the past. I don't really see a difference between MD and DOs. I see MDs working in DO hospitals consulting OMT adn I see DOs working in allopathic hospitals using OMT. You don't have to lose your Identity by working with the allopathic physicians...I doubt that there will be any other california incident like in the past.

ALSO, if the DO wants student do to an osteopathic residency, why are they opening DO schools like starbucks...there are more students now, less DO spots each year due to lack of funding. I know a lot of DO only hospitals starting to merge with allopathic hospitals due to the lack of funding. So we are forced to go to the allopathic world for residency either way. I also know that a lot of programs close and fellowships cause when the program director retires, the program also goes away unless someone wants to "volunteer" for it.
 
Why isn't this enough? Especially the distinction on primary care. Nearly all DO schools (no matter how many or few primary care students they send to residencies) are more primary care oriented than MD schools on the whole. Thus, there is a greater percentage of DOs that end up in primary care fields than MDs.

Oh come now. Do you really believe this? Or is it that less competative applicants for medical school remain less competative applicants in the match process and hence end up in FP? I go to a school that is "family practice" oriented and we have a larger than average % of people going into more competative fields because we can draw good students.
If the only difference is the portion of people in each specialty why have MD and DO schools? Why not just all be MD? Most DO's signed on just to get into a medical school with subpar scores/grades and are now pissed that the old guard that really gave a crap about what a DO is (other than a back door into medicine) are trying to keep the profession the way it was.
 
So are you saying that DO schools are a backdoor into medicine?

Im saying that some people use it as such without regards to the differences between what a DO is and an MD is.
 
Im saying that some people use it as such without regards to the differences between what a DO is and an MD is.


I agree 100%, and not only that, Later these "people" pretend to change the "osteopathic system" because it doesn't conform to their plans and wishes. Pretty naive if you ask me...
 
So are you saying that DO schools are a backdoor into medicine?
Not necessarily a back door, but perhaps a side entrance but that is simply because of a resistance among the hierarchy to adapt to changing times. Even our resident OMM guru (JP) seems to agree with the assessment that the AOA is to blame for many of the current problems. Osteopathic medicine has been, and will continue to be, a backup option for the vast majority of people considering medical school until such time as the bull**** (read as: cranial) is cut out of the curriculum and the AOA stops trying to punish those who don't toe the party line.
 
Oh come now. Do you really believe this? Or is it that less competative applicants for medical school remain less competative applicants in the match process and hence end up in FP? I go to a school that is "family practice" oriented and we have a larger than average % of people going into more competative fields because we can draw good students.
If the only difference is the portion of people in each specialty why have MD and DO schools? Why not just all be MD? Most DO's signed on just to get into a medical school with subpar scores/grades and are now pissed that the old guard that really gave a crap about what a DO is (other than a back door into medicine) are trying to keep the profession the way it was.

Either you misunderstood me, or you misunderstood me. The last paragraph from my response was the meat of what I was getting at.

Believe it or not, DOs do not serve the same purpose that they did when A.T. Still first raised the banner of osteopathy. My point is that DOs do NOT have to be this entirely different entity in order to serve a much needed purpose. Every DO school that currently exists routinely sends portions of its students to very competitive specialties. I'm more than confident that this will continue, which is fantastic. Fact: There will be a physician shortage in the very near future. Without osteophatic medical schools, this shortage would be even greater and therefore even more detrimental to our country.

DOs fill a great need, and as a result, they are a commodity to society at large.
 
After reading all the posts to this thread something occurred to me that was truly amazing... There are people out there who actually read the JAOA.

I encourage all allopathic-trained DOs to write Strosnider at the AOA and let him know that you will send him your AOA dues check as soon as you receive a letter describing the AOA's comprehensive plan to remove the osteopathic internship requirement in the remaining 5 states that still require it. I don't care who you are or what you believe, the simple fact is there is no valid argument supporting this disparity in licensing regulations between states. It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Surely the AOA cannot honestly suggest that DOs are safely practicing in the 45 states without the DO internship, and that there is something magical in the land or water in the other 5 states that has the innate ability to strip DOs of their knowledge as soon as they cross the border. If the DOs working at the AOA truly believe in this irrational theory then do they really deserve your membership dues? Maybe we should refer to those 5 states as the "kryptonite" states until this mysterious anti-DO substance is identified.

Ask yourself this, what does an ACGME-trained DO (on average 50-65% of each graduating DO class!) gain from having a membership in the AOA? Why not join your specialty society and its PAC or even just the regular AMA which has much more clout in D.C.

This old-school hardliner approach by the AOA regime is only going to further fragment the profession and decrease their memberships.
 
After reading all the posts to this thread something occurred to me that was truly amazing... There are people out there who actually read the JAOA.

I encourage all allopathic-trained DOs to write Strosnider at the AOA and let him know that you will send him your AOA dues check as soon as you receive a letter describing the AOA's comprehensive plan to remove the osteopathic internship requirement in the remaining 5 states that still require it. I don't care who you are or what you believe, the simple fact is there is no valid argument supporting this disparity in licensing regulations between states. It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Surely the AOA cannot honestly suggest that DOs are safely practicing in the 45 states without the DO internship, and that there is something magical in the land or water in the other 5 states that has the innate ability to strip DOs of their knowledge as soon as they cross the border. If the DOs working at the AOA truly believe in this irrational theory then do they really deserve your membership dues? Maybe we should refer to those 5 states as the "kryptonite" states until this mysterious anti-DO substance is identified.

Ask yourself this, what does an ACGME-trained DO (on average 50-65% of each graduating DO class!) gain from having a membership in the AOA? Why not join your specialty society and its PAC or even just the regular AMA which has much more clout in D.C.

This old-school hardliner approach by the AOA regime is only going to further fragment the profession and decrease their memberships.

Agreed. It is time we started putting a little pressure on the AOA and, money, is something even the 'old-school' boys of the AOA can understand.
 
After reading all the posts to this thread something occurred to me that was truly amazing... There are people out there who actually read the JAOA.

I encourage all allopathic-trained DOs to write Strosnider at the AOA and let him know that you will send him your AOA dues check as soon as you receive a letter describing the AOA's comprehensive plan to remove the osteopathic internship requirement in the remaining 5 states that still require it. I don't care who you are or what you believe, the simple fact is there is no valid argument supporting this disparity in licensing regulations between states. It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Surely the AOA cannot honestly suggest that DOs are safely practicing in the 45 states without the DO internship, and that there is something magical in the land or water in the other 5 states that has the innate ability to strip DOs of their knowledge as soon as they cross the border. If the DOs working at the AOA truly believe in this irrational theory then do they really deserve your membership dues? Maybe we should refer to those 5 states as the "kryptonite" states until this mysterious anti-DO substance is identified.

Ask yourself this, what does an ACGME-trained DO (on average 50-65% of each graduating DO class!) gain from having a membership in the AOA? Why not join your specialty society and its PAC or even just the regular AMA which has much more clout in D.C.

This old-school hardliner approach by the AOA regime is only going to further fragment the profession and decrease their memberships.

Those 5 states that require the internship year for licensure are not under the control of the AOA. This is up to each state board to change.
 
Those 5 states that require the internship year for licensure are not under the control of the AOA. This is up to each state board to change.

It probably would take a revision of each states medical practices act and the AOA could certainly lobby to encourage such a change. I have heard that prior attempts have failed secondary to the AOA lobbying against the efforts. I don't have anything factual to back that up however. Nonetheless, a letter to the AOA addressing the issue could add momentum for such a change. By the way I don't have anything personal to gain from seeking a change in the rules because I already have AOA approval of my ACGME internship. However, I completely disagree with the disparity in medical licensure rules regarding DOs. It truly does reflect poorly on our profession that such a rule even exists.
 
So a question that I have is that if you go to school in one of those 5 states, but wish to do an internship/Residency in one of the other 45 states, you can do that even if you don't plan on practicing in one of those 5 states?

Krisss17
 
Two comments:
I'm glad that the role of the State Societies was brought up in all this. It is action at the state level that is necessary for many of the issues discussed here. It is the state societies that send the representatives who make policies of the AOA. Nothing changes without their support.

Second, For those of us concerned with these issues, the person we need to address is Peter B. Ajluni, DO. Dr. Ajluni is the president-elect for the AOA. Dr. Stro's priorities have already been established and executed but there is time to send well-reasoned, and well-argued letters to Dr. Aljuni on the on the importance of student opinions in these issues on the future of the AOA and I encourage every concerned student to do so.
 
So a question that I have is that if you go to school in one of those 5 states, but wish to do an internship/Residency in one of the other 45 states, you can do that even if you don't plan on practicing in one of those 5 states?

Krisss17

Yes, where you do your undergraduate medical education doesn't matter because this is a graduate medical education issue. All that matters is that if you plan to practice in one of the famous five states, then you must complete and AOA approved internship somewhere in the country. That is my understanding.
 
vaemtguy...
while i applaud your desire to change things and direct our comments to the in-coming president i have absolutely no reason to believe that the AOA will ever change...anything. We had a couple come talk to us last week and it was nearly the exact same message we got 4 years ago...nothing has changed!!! it was the same infomercial, feel good you're a DO rhetoric we'll always be fed.
Do you know that over 50% of graduating DO's will do ACGME residencies...and that if you are not DO trained you can't hold leadership positions in the AOA nor can you become dean of a DO school? They claim there are ways around this (ie: resolution 42) but i would like to see how many leadership positions are given (because there are no elections in the AOA) to ACGME trained physicians.
The AOA doesn't think anything is wrong with osteopathy...so why should they change???
 
i would like to see how many leadership positions are given (because there are no elections in the AOA) to ACGME trained physicians.

The Dean of OU-COM is ACGME trained. That's one. Any more out there?
 
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