DPT's calling themselves doctors and physicians...WHY?

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I teach my patients in-depth every time. whether they are a plumber or a physician.
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so yes PTs do teach, and can teach at any level because I've had many invited into my PT classes where some do an amazing job, and some not so good, just like PhDs. I would also argue to you for fun: what seems more important, learning some information you're going to forget overnight in most college classes taught by a PhD (you've all been there), or learning information essential to moving in your daily life for the simplest of things like walking to shop, rolling in your bed to get up, bending over to tie your shoes, squatting for the toilet, weekend warriors, or playing sports at the highest level of athletics. The type of learning in PT is cognitive, but also kinesiological (motor learning) and often requires skilled hands-on facilitation of movement. The point of learning in physical therapy is also for a patient to be independent with prevention of re-injury. Like I said - long term.

On the "doctor" note, take a look at this:

-Childs JD, Whitman JM, Sizer PS, et al. A description of physical therapists' knowledge in managing musculoskeletal conditions. BMC musculoskeletal disorders. 2005;6(1):32. Available at: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/6/32.:*
-In a study administered to PT and PT students, physician interns, medical students and residents, and a variety of physician specialists including orthopedic surgeons...
-Licensed physical therapists who were board-certified achieved significantly higher scores (81%) and passing rates (88%) than their non board-certified colleagues (76% and 67% respectively), second only to orthopedic surgeons (94% avg. score)
-"Physical therapist students enrolled in programs conferring the doctoral degree achieved significantly higher scores than students enrolled in programs conferring the master's degree..."

I personally scored a 74% at the end of my second year with one more to go. We're not trying to be "physicians" but we deserve respect for our level of knowledge, movement analysis, and manual skills. Again, it's not just "do this exercise." Anyone can do that.

I don't want to be called "doctor" as a physician, but rather as a physical therapist. No, I will not walk into a hospital pretending to be an MD so will not use the Dr. title. It's not my fault my DPT program isn't 7+ years long. How dare people insult patients' intelligence by thinking they cannot learn the difference between the two professions. (Which segues into my next paragraph.)

I will also add that medicine has been around and established for a long time and has a superiority complex. It has been taught (paternalism) as part of their professional education for most of the century only recently being supplanted by a more patient-centered model. Take that how you will but you cannot deny it. Drugs and cutting aren't the only ways to help people, and the latest research on surgery outcomes compared to PT is one example of realizing our overuse of this form of treatment. What's the expression, "To a Man with a Hammer, Everything Looks Like a Nail." That does apply BOTH ways too. Meaning, PT is not for everyone. It still doesn't change the fact that people want passive treatment (medicine) since active treatment (for the most part PT) takes effort to follow. A patient is in an outpatient PT clinic for a fraction of the time. They MUST do their HEP (home exercise program) to see results that last.

If you don't know what PTs do, search for my or motiondoc's (and I'm sure many others') descriptions of our training. Also go to apta.org and moveforwardpt.com for more info.
 
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That one weak study has been quoted like 3 times in this dumb thread
 
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Keep in mind the source of the examination (MDs):
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia
J. Bone and Joint Surgery 1998 (Oct); 80-A (10): 1421–1427
http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/full/80/10/1421

great argument by the way. you read my part about the superiority complex right?

Don't think I don't know about Sackett's levels of evidence, however this supports my point just fine.

Donkeykiss said:
That one weak study has been quoted like 3 times in this dumb thread
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jles said:
Keep in mind the source of the examination (MDs):
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia
J. Bone and Joint Surgery 1998 (Oct); 80-A (10): 1421–1427
http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/full/80/10/1421

great argument by the way. you read my part about the superiority complex right?

Don't think I don't know about Sackett's levels of evidence, however this supports my point just fine.
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Non-operative musculoskeletal issues might be high in frequency but are relatively low in value/risk. What are the costs of unnecessarily treating/referring them vs. say, a heart attack? How much does a trip to the PT cost vs a trip to the cath lab? And what are the consequences of forgoing either? Most malpractice suits meanwhile are missed diagnoses of cancer, heart attack, and appendicitis. There isn't as much liability concern with musculoskeletal complaints. Basically, it comes back to the usual culprits of liability and money. If you ever wonder why something in medicine is f*cked up just look there first for the answer.
 
I don't think I clearly understand your point Marcus.

However, being an expert in recognizing musculoskeletal complaints (as suggested by my post and the article) means we can recognize non-msk complaints and is what we are being trained to do. In fact, there is research being done to evaluate our skill in doing so.
(Decision-Making Ability of Physical Therapists: Physical Therapy Intervention or Medical Referral, Jette et al 2006: The average percentages of correct decisions were 87%, 88%, and 79% for musculoskeletal, noncritical medical, and critical medical conditions, respectively.)
This is part of the reason for the DPT degree which I have heard cited by experienced PTs who went through these transitional-DPT programs: increased focus on screening for non-msk pathology.

In other words, we're only getting better at it.

On another note, here's an interesting post for those interested. (med students, nursing, PT, pharm., etc...)
I think this is an effective hook: "The days of the physician with the halo over his or her head are unfortunately over for physicians"
http://bit.ly/a2bOsa
 
The word "Doctor" doesn't mean anything anymore. Doctor of PT, NP, PA, PharmD, etc. I think it's a moot point. I don't think you'll have too many people confusing your PT with your DO/MD. If they did, than all of these years of schooling and the title "Doctor" which means "To Teach" should more than adequately prepare the practitioner to inform the patient who the physician is. If a PT is passing themselves off as a Physician it is clearly fraud. If a PT is passing themselves off as a doctor of their trade than it clearly isn't. The term "Doctor" has been reduced to a marketing ploy.

Time will tell with direct access. If it is successfully reimbursed directly via third-party payer and pts are getting hurt than most likely it will go away real fast. So what are the Physicians worried about? If PTs can't do the job than things will work their way out naturally. I believe I know the answer to my question. It doesn't matter what's right, it only matters how strong your political lobbyists are. Can the APTA compete with the AMA financially? That is the main question.
 
lee-I agree with you. The whole thing is really so silly. WHO CARES?!?!?! Honestly, when I tell people I'm going to PT school that is all I say. I NEVER say I am gonig to DPT school. When they ask what type of degree it is, I explain it is a CLINICAL DOCTORATE. It is NOT a PhD and it is simply called a doctorate because we have added on much more clinical/research experience to our education.

I work at a fairly large hospital as a rehab tech and we have PTs, MPTs and DPTs. Never have I heard anyone introduce themself as anything other than their "Name, a Physical Therapist". I also find it very hard to believe that a patient would TRULY mistake a DPT for an MD.

It is exactly like lee said-if a PT tries to give the impression they are an MD, it is FRAUD and they will pay for it. MDs have gone though a ton of hard work and school and no one should ever argue otherwise. I respect each and every health field whether it be MD, PT, OT, RN, Pharmacist, STNA, WHATEVER-we have all sacrificed so much and we should all really just be there for the patient not our egos.

Docotor simply signifies a certain level of education. I don't care what someone calls me. I just hope they respect the hard work I have put into my education to be the best PT I can be. If you know it's a DPT great. If not, that's ok too I just hope that you can at least be respectful of my education as I am of yours. Things will def. work out one way or another and bickering over it won't solve anything. There are plenty of other things to get our panties in a bunch over.

I fully support the APTA going for the DPT. I don't really see why it would upset anyone who is not in the field of therapy.

So can we please stop arguing over this and move onto something more constructive :bang:
 
I've actually asked this question to a fellow colleague of mine.

So what is the difference between a Physical Therapist and a Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation physician as far as skill set?
 
peduncle said:
I've actually asked this question to a fellow colleague of mine.

So what is the difference between a Physical Therapist and a Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation physician as far as skill set?
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PM and R is a medical doctor or osteopath who has gone through medical school and then a residency that deals specifically with rehabilitation sciences. They medically manage NMSK problems, prescribe meds, order imaging, do injections, and all things medical. They refer to PT, OT, and Speech, often are the team leader at rehab centers, often work with orthos to manage the non-surgical cases that come through the ortho office.
 
peduncle said:
I've actually asked this question to a fellow colleague of mine.

So what is the difference between a Physical Therapist and a Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation physician as far as skill set?
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Just an elaboration to what truthseeker said. As a medical doctor our skill set also involves managing their other medical conditions, the most common being Diabetes, HTN, CHF, Infections.

And here is an excerpt endorsed by the AAPM&R Board of governors

Using skills developed in ACGME-accredited training programs, PM&R specialists routinely perform inpatient and outpatient musculoskeletal and neuromuscular diagnoses and treatments that emphasize function and rehabilitation. Physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists treat patients of all ages afflicted with painful and function-limiting musculoskeletal disorders of the spine, peripheral joints, and soft tissues such as sprains/strains, disc herniations, rheumatologic conditions and athletic injuries. PM&R specialists also diagnose and treat degenerative, developmental, acquired, and traumatic neuromuscular conditions of the upper and lower limbs, spinal cord, and brain. It is this unique blend of orthopedic, neuromuscular, pain, and rehabilitation training and experience that makes the PM&R specialist an ideal primary or secondary care physician for patients with occupational or sports-related musculoskeletal or neuromuscular injuries. This multidisciplinary training also makes the PM&R physician the most qualified specialist to lead the team of medical specialists and rehabilitation therapists involved in a patient's rehabilitative care.

Physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists are specially trained to prescribe therapeutic exercise and other rehabilitation modalities. They are expert in the performance and interpretation of electrodiagnostic studies including electromyography, nerve conduction studies, and evoked potentials. PM&R specialists use routine laboratory and radiographic studies, but they are also trained in the interpretation of more sophisticated diagnostic studies that evaluate a patient's musculoskeletal and neuromuscular systems such as CT, myelography, bone scan, and MRI. Many physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists are skilled in manual medicine.

All physical medicine and rehabilitation residents are trained to perform injection techniques such as peripheral nerve blockade, trigger point injections, joint injections, and the injection of neurolytic agents and botulinum toxin. With specific training, many PM&R specialists routinely perform fluoroscopically directed spinal and large joint procedures such as interlaminar and transforaminal epidural injections, zygapophysial joint injections, radiofrequency denervation, sacroiliac joint intra-articular injections, sympathetic blockade, discography, and other advanced interventional pain management techniques.

The American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation asserts that all physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists who have completed a physical medicine and rehabilitation residency have adequate training to practice in the following areas:

--Inpatient and outpatient musculoskeletal and neuromuscular diagnosis and rehabilitation;

--Electrodiagnostic medicine;

--Medical and rehabilitative pain management;

--Injury prevention and wellness;

--Non-surgical spine medicine; and

--Sports medicine including athletes with disabilities.

In addition, the Academy further asserts that many physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists have the appropriate training to practice in the following areas:

--Interventional diagnostic and therapeutic spinal procedures; and

--Interventional pain management.
 
Hi guys. I'm currently trying to chase a Doctor of Science in Physical Therapist Assistant Technicianing degree. Does anyone know of any good programs?

Just kidding guys. Honestly, call yourself what you want to call yourself. It's not a big deal and patients with fibromyalgia care about one thing and one thing only...their pain. They don't care about your title and the fact that their PT introduced themselves as Dr. Social Climber.

I don't think I've ever heard of a PT doing that though. Even if they did...so what? Rest assured no DPT will ever attempt to do a heart transplant. (We hope! :) )
 
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truthseeker said:
PM and R is a medical doctor or osteopath who has gone through medical school and then a residency that deals specifically with rehabilitation sciences.
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In the United States a 'medical doctor' may be a physician who is a graduate of an allopathic medical school and has the designation of M.D., or an osteopathic medical school and has the designation of D.O.

The correct terminology of a U.S. trained D.O. is Osteopathic Physician. Osteopaths are limited in their scope of practice to simply manual therapies.
 
Buckeye4life said:
In the United States a 'medical doctor' may be a physician who is a graduate of an allopathic medical school and has the designation of M.D., or an osteopathic medical school and has the designation of D.O.

The correct terminology of a U.S. trained D.O. is Osteopathic Physician. Osteopaths are limited in their scope of practice to simply manual therapies.
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My bolds: That is absolutely not true. DOs have the same rights and privleges that the MD has. They are NOT limited to simply manual therapies. Are you serious? aren't you a DO student?
 
I believe he is right.

Here in Brazil, Osteopathy is not recognized by the Brazilian Council of Medicine. The Brazilian Council of Physical Therapy, on the other hand, has recognized Osteopathy as a specialization (in manual medicine or therapy) of DPTs. It is a four year course that leads to the title "Osteopath". We Brazilian osteopaths refer to US DOs as Osteopathic Physicians. It is the best way, at least IMHO, to differentiate physicians from other professionals, i.e., osteopaths. We have to remember that historically, osteopathy left the USA as a different path in healthcare and not as a "different MD graduation". Also, just to mention, Medicine in Brazil is a bachelor’s degree (six year course). A physician must complete a PhD program in order to become a "real doctor" as any other profession in our country. Physicians refer themselves as physicians which is a very respected title in our society, probably the hardest to become in average.

Cheers
 
RodrigoRocha said:
I believe he is right.

Here in Brazil, Osteopathy is not recognized by the Brazilian Council of Medicine. The Brazilian Council of Physical Therapy, on the other hand, has recognized Osteopathy as a specialization (in manual medicine or therapy) of DPTs. It is a four year course that leads to the title "Osteopath". We Brazilian osteopaths refer to US DOs as Osteopathic Physicians. It is the best way, at least IMHO, to differentiate physicians from other professionals, i.e., osteopaths. We have to remember that historically, osteopathy left the USA as a different path in healthcare and not as a "different MD graduation". Also, just to mention, Medicine in Brazil is a bachelor's degree (six year course). A physician must complete a PhD program in order to become a "real doctor" as any other profession in our country. Physicians refer themselves as physicians which is a very respected title in our society, probably the hardest to become in average.

Cheers
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OK, sorry. I refer personally to DO's or Osteopathic physicians as Osteopaths. I apologize. In the US, it is my understanding that DO = Osteopath
 
truthseeker said:
[/B]


My bolds: That is absolutely not true. DOs have the same rights and privleges that the MD has. They are NOT limited to simply manual therapies. Are you serious? aren't you a DO student?
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Really? :rolleyes:
 
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There is no good reason why anyone should use the title "Doctor." When a physician says, "Hello, my name is Doctor...." he is always wrong. No one has "Doctor" as his first name. The person is confusing title with name. If he wishes, he may say "Hello, I am Doctor...." But why do that other than to establish an authoritative power relationship? Isn't it sufficient to say, "Hello, I am Mr.....and I am a physician." (best) Or else, "Hello, I am [give first and last name]" and then say, "I am a physician." Or, "I am a doctor."

In my 76 years of living, I have never met a physician who uses the title "Doctor" for any reasons other than it makes him feel good or he wrongly imagines patients like to know he is a physician. But the methods I suggested above immediately clear up any possible confusion on that score.

I have a Ph.D. in philosophy and my 45 years of experience persuades me that a human-to-human relationship works best, whoever you are.
 
My wife is a DPT student, and I am a second year medical student. Our training thus far is totally different, and she will undoubtably know way more MSK (diagnostic, treatment, and management) than I ever will- unless I got into PM&R.

With that said, she would never introduce herself to a patient as Doctor X, she will introduce herself as her name, and then say that she is the patients physical therapist. The common notion, in a hospital/clinical setting, is that the "doctor" is the treating physician, and not the DNP, DPT, PharmD, etc.

Will this change? Who knows. At this point in time, most of my patients think the janitor is their doctor (if he has a white coat on).
 
Interested in "who should be able to call themselves Doctor" topic?

Check out this medical student's blog post, and dont forget to read the comments.

Interesting...

Here
 
I actually have no problem with my PT calling him/herself "doctor" as long as he/she explains "your PT" after that.
 
Oh ya I did hear a funny story from a pharmacy friend of mine about U.S. pharmacists calling themselves "doctors" and adding the word into their pharmacy names. I have no problem with a doctoral degree holding therapist who treat people calling themselves non-physician doctors but a drug dispensing pharmacist? Really?
 
goyo1010 said:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/116...ition-to-direct-access-to-physical-therapists

My Professionalism in Physical Therapy Instructor showed us this in class today
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Well done! I do have a question about when physical therapists are taught to refer a patient to see a physician outside of acute neurologic symptoms. The cartoon stated 4-6 weeks of no improvement. Is this taught in most schools? If so, is there a study or something that this number is based on?

Thanks!
 
physician doctor ok
chiropractor doctor ok
pharmacist doctor ok
physical therapy doctor ok
psychologist doctor ok
optometrist doctor ok

listen if you earned the damn doctorate ill call you dr. simple as that why are these threads continuing?

if you earned it, you deserve to be called it.
 
PharmaTope said:
physician doctor ok
chiropractor doctor ok
pharmacist doctor ok
physical therapy doctor ok
psychologist doctor ok
optometrist doctor ok

listen if you earned the damn doctorate ill call you dr. simple as that why are these threads continuing?

if you earned it, you deserve to be called it.
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Pretty much! I mean the whole argument is just, well........it is getting beat like an old rug. I mean how fragile does your ego have to be to? Each discipline engages in what is typically a very specific role in healthcare. Achieving the title of "Dr." has absolutely nothing to do with how good of a clinician you are or will be over the course of your career. I don't care if you did your PhD in custodial engineering and then completed a 3 year post-doc studying how recycling efficiency could be improved at Level 3 trauma centers. Just go out and be the best damn janitor you can be! Nuff said!
 
TheOx777 said:
Pretty much! I mean the whole argument is just, well........it is getting beat like an old rug. I mean how fragile does your ego have to be to? Each discipline engages in what is typically a very specific role in healthcare. Achieving the title of "Dr." has absolutely nothing to do with how good of a clinician you are or will be over the course of your career. I don't care if you did your PhD in custodial engineering and then completed a 3 year post-doc studying how recycling efficiency could be improved at Level 3 trauma centers. Just go out and be the best damn janitor you can be! Nuff said!
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I agree. I just didn't want to open up another thread for this little cartoon animation, which was meant for entertainment for us SPTs, and PTs and concerned mostly with direct access to PT services, which I believe is the more significant aspect of the video, rather than the "Dr." title.
 
I always just walk into a patient's room and say "Hi, Im _____ with physical therapy, I'm going to help you _________ today"

You'd have to be a tool to present yourself as an MD or something on that level. Sure I'm proud of my achievement but I'm not going to pretend I sat through 18783 years of MD training either.
 
PharmaTope said:
physician doctor ok
chiropractor doctor ok
pharmacist doctor ok
physical therapy doctor ok
psychologist doctor ok
optometrist doctor ok

listen if you earned the damn doctorate ill call you dr. simple as that why are these threads continuing?

if you earned it, you deserve to be called it.
Click to expand...


Very soon most if not all health professionals in the U.S. are going to be doctors and someday maybe accountants & engineers will become doctors too. :D
 
fozzy40 said:
Well done! I do have a question about when physical therapists are taught to refer a patient to see a physician outside of acute neurologic symptoms. The cartoon stated 4-6 weeks of no improvement. Is this taught in most schools? If so, is there a study or something that this number is based on?

Thanks!
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I'm not sure what schools are teaching now, but 4-6 weeks of no improvement seems like an awful lot of wasted time to me. I usually expect to see some improvement within the first two or three sessions for most acute symptoms, and within the first several weeks for more chronic symptoms. If that's not happening, I'm usually putting a call into the physician.
 
jesspt said:
I'm not sure what schools are teaching now, but 4-6 weeks of no improvement seems like an awful lot of wasted time to me. I usually expect to see some improvement within the first two or three sessions for most acute symptoms, and within the first several weeks for more chronic symptoms. If that's not happening, I'm usually putting a call into the physician.
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I was thinking the same thing. I was just curious on what is the average time alotted for a treatment plan nowadays.
 
While there are some things we aren't qualified to treat, this is the same for every "doctor." You wouldn't expect a cardiologist to be able to provide a gait analysis.

My professors say that "we are the movement specialists" and should fight hard to be treated as such.
 
When everyone's a "doctor" no one is. Do some research on the value of the BA/BS degree now since everyone has one.

The clinical doctorates in the therapies, podiatry, pharmacy etc works out great for the schools and all parties that have an interest in you being deep in financial debt. It doesn't look to end up working out for the providers or patients in an environment of decreasing reimbursement (Physician Fee Schedule/MPPR) and decreasing patient discretionary income to pay for their healthcare in a nation that looks to be heading into financial crisis.

With a patient target population (60+) largely dependent upon a social programs for their healthcare (medicare/medicaid) and retirement (social security) with a foundation of a welfare, service-based economy, the prognosis doesn't look very good. With patient populations complaining of paying $20 copays, it could get interesting. Add to this a governement dedicated to adding jobs at a cost (govt jobs) instead of at a profit (production), we seem to have a very poor prognosis for pulling this country out of the trillions of dollars of debt we are in.

We are not a wealthy but a poor nation riding on an economic bubble inflated by its fiat ( faith/aka not on gold standard) currency. With international talk about differentiating away from the dollar as the international currency, it could get interesting.

The Physician has traditionally been seen as the "doc" by patients. I don't see the move by allied health political organizations to doctorize their degrees as changing this.

In a free-market system, the one that has the less expenses has less overhead which can be passed onto the patient. This gives them a competitive advantage. On a political level, a lot of what therapists technically do is also done by ATCs, MTs, and DCs. They just can't call it "Physical Therapy" and bill Medicare/Insurance for it like that.

In the end, results win over titles and degrees. Put your faith in something greater than an expensive piece of paper with empty promises. Just another perspective. It looks to be a bumpy road up ahead.
 
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In my own opinion a PT with a doctorate degree can be addressed as Doctor of Physical therapy and there is nothing wrong with that. However, it will be misleading when one starts to call his or herself a physician.......... very very wrong.
 
This is a very interesting topic and thread. I will preface my remarks by disclaiming that I am a realist, so some of this may seem a bit blunt to those whose egos or personalities are damaged (inferiority complexes, etc.). I am also speaking solely for the US.

The US allopathic medical school degree (MD) is the most prestigious and difficult to attain degree in the country, based on the intellectual (IQ – as assessed by the MCAT, which, you may not be aware, is designed to weed out those who are not in the top 1% of IQ level), academic, and extracurricular credential-set required to be accepted to a US allopathic school. The US osteopathic schools and Caribbean/foreign MD schools allow a lower standard of requirements for admission and are therefore excluded from this distinction. Even the most rigorous PhD program entrance requirements pale in comparison (again, nothing against PhD’s at all, I’m just presenting the facts/reality as can be accessed online by anyone willing to look up the statistics). I write this only because some on here/elsewhere feel that the title of doctor insinuates a level of prestige, which is not necessarily untrue. If this is important to you, then you need to go to a US allopathic school. If you cannot get accepted, but are prestige-hungry, then you may need to see a therapist, or settle for something less prestigious.

In the case of the hospital setting, the following should be observed (on the basis of minimizing patient confusion, which in my opinion is the most important factor):
Medical students: the appropriate title is: Mr., Ms., or first name
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD: the appropriate title is Dr.
All others (DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, DC, etc.): the appropriate title is Mr., Ms., (or simply first name); addressing themselves as Dr. is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable and potentially illegal depending on the context
(Clarifiers after name [medical student, physical therapist, etc.] are appropriate as well)

In the case of the general public/social setting, the following should be observed:
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD: the appropriate title is Dr.
All others (DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, DC, etc.): depends on the social context, but most often the appropriate title is: Mr. or Ms.
For example, the correct way to address an MD on a postal envelope is Dr. (always), where as an academic PhD is Mr. / Ms. UNLESS the sender is addressing the academician as an academician (and not a random individual).

In the case of the academic setting or a personal office, the following should be observed:
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD, DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, etc.: the appropriate title is Dr. or Professor

The etymology and history of the word “doctor,” while interesting, is mostly irrelevant from a realist’s perspective living in this day and age (vernacularism and tradition take precedence). Hate to break this to some of you, but no one in the general public considers, or ever will consider, a DPT, DNP, PharmD, PhD, etc. as a “doctor.” If you obtained one of these degrees hoping to be seen as such, you made a mistake. sorry.

Hope this helps with minimizing patient confusion. I certainly am confused when anyone but my physician labels themselves as Dr. while I am in the hospital, and I find it quite offensive (if not amusing) to be honest. But, I certainly do hope that all fields can work together as a cohesive unit regardless of degree type or level.
 
CJ181 said:
This is a very interesting topic and thread. I will preface my remarks by disclaiming that I am a realist, so some of this may seem a bit blunt to those whose egos or personalities are damaged (inferiority complexes, etc.). I am also speaking solely for the US.

The US allopathic medical school degree (MD) is the most prestigious and difficult to attain degree in the country, based on the intellectual (IQ – as assessed by the MCAT, which, you may not be aware, is designed to weed out those who are not in the top 1% of IQ level), academic, and extracurricular credential-set required to be accepted to a US allopathic school. The US osteopathic schools and Caribbean/foreign MD schools allow a lower standard of requirements for admission and are therefore excluded from this distinction. Even the most rigorous PhD program entrance requirements pale in comparison (again, nothing against PhD's at all, I'm just presenting the facts/reality as can be accessed online by anyone willing to look up the statistics). I write this only because some on here/elsewhere feel that the title of doctor insinuates a level of prestige, which is not necessarily untrue. If this is important to you, then you need to go to a US allopathic school. If you cannot get accepted, but are prestige-hungry, then you may need to see a therapist, or settle for something less prestigious.

In the case of the hospital setting, the following should be observed (on the basis of minimizing patient confusion, which in my opinion is the most important factor):
Medical students: the appropriate title is: Mr., Ms., or first name
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD: the appropriate title is Dr.
All others (DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, DC, etc.): the appropriate title is Mr., Ms., (or simply first name); addressing themselves as Dr. is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable and potentially illegal depending on the context
(Clarifiers after name [medical student, physical therapist, etc.] are appropriate as well)

In the case of the general public/social setting, the following should be observed:
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD: the appropriate title is Dr.
All others (DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, DC, etc.): depends on the social context, but most often the appropriate title is: Mr. or Ms.
For example, the correct way to address an MD on a postal envelope is Dr. (always), where as an academic PhD is Mr. / Ms. UNLESS the sender is addressing the academician as an academician (and not a random individual).

In the case of the academic setting or a personal office, the following should be observed:
MD, DO, clinical psychologist (PsyD, PhD), DDS, DMD, DPM, OD, DPT, DNP, PharmD, academic PhD, etc.: the appropriate title is Dr. or Professor

The etymology and history of the word "doctor," while interesting, is mostly irrelevant from a realist's perspective living in this day and age (vernacularism and tradition take precedence). Hate to break this to some of you, but no one in the general public considers, or ever will consider, a DPT, DNP, PharmD, PhD, etc. as a "doctor." If you obtained one of these degrees hoping to be seen as such, you made a mistake. sorry.

Hope this helps with minimizing patient confusion. I certainly am confused when anyone but my physician labels themselves as Dr. while I am in the hospital, and I find it quite offensive (if not amusing) to be honest. But, I certainly do hope that all fields can work together as a cohesive unit regardless of degree type or level.
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re·al·ist
noun 1. a person who tends to view or represent things as they really are.

You are not a realist. Reality is not based on opinions, societal norms, population ignorance, or individual stupidity.

Anyone who graduated from an accredited university with a doctorate is a doctor, in reality. They don't have to be recognized by *****s like you, insurance companies or society to make it so. Your perceptions, feelings, biases, and lack of knowledge are irrelevant.

Reservation of these terms should be reserved for the following IMO:

physician - DO, MD
professor - PhD
dentist - DDS, DMD
etc...

the term "doctor" is not owned by some professions and unattainable by others.

Further, the current system seems to advocate for typically autonomous providers calling themselves doctor every two seconds while everyone else goes by their first name. Laughable if you ask me.

Perhaps to avoid confusion the system should be changed to advocate for statement of title followed by last name, i.e. physical therapist johnson, physician wilks, bla bla....
 
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CJ181,
I have a simple question. What is confusing about introducing yourself as Dr. let alone any other title? You seem like a concrete thinker, but I ask you to please try and think of this more abstract example. Say I am a Doctor of Physical Therapy and introduce myself as Dr. So and So, before evaluating a patient on their functional ability...(Personally I would not feel the need to and would go by my first name, however for the sake of those that feel the need to do so whether they are a physician or a physical therapist) What is the difference? In my opinion the only difference is that when introducing yourself by your first name you put the patient at ease and may come off more personable. But why on earth would that confuse a patient on the task at hand? If a PT with a doctorate is doing something outside of his/her scope that is an issue but introducing themselves as Dr. So and So is simply their deserved choice, as long as they inform the patient of their purpose. Ask vietnam veterans if they were confused as to who was helping them. If you believe that completing an MD degree in an allopathic US medical school automatically puts you on an equal playing field and all Physicians MUST be on the same level then you are mistaken yourself. I have seen patients who were misdiagnosed or mistreated many times. An orthopedic surgeon evaluating an individual's cardiac functioning for future medical intervention is no less confusing and IMMORAL then a Physical Therapist attempting to go outside of their scope of practice. Maybe it is hard for you to imagine this, but Physical Therapist's have quite a large scope of practice. Patient confusion is really only a matter of the question "Does this individual care for my life the way I require at this point in time". Please respond. You owe everybody out there considering a Doctoral profession an explanation as to how using the title Dr. is detrimental or immoral to any one individual, or society as a whole.
 
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CJ181,
Realist or elitist? I sense the latter. I could have said what you did without my nose sky-high in the air, chest out, with my superman cape blowing in the wind. I don't have a hard opinion on this matter, but if you're willing to sprout a backbone and come back with your true SDN ID, I'd be more than happy to discuss this matter with you - more so on the MCAT in relations to IQ. I'm declined to believe that you created an account just to make this 'one' post to put these "prestige-seeking" commoners in their place. Or did you? ::troll::
 
my opinion on this subject remains the same. I will NEVER introduce myself as Dr. anything. I work in a hospital setting. I am probably the orthopedic expert on our staff but I am not a doctor. i have my doctorate in PT but it implies much more than i am allowed to do by statute.

I think it is great that the APTA is pushing the DPT but I think that it might be a response to the chiropractors calling themselves doctor all the time. i think the designation assigns more knowledge and credibility than either the DPT or the DC deserves. We are experts in our scope but our scope is limited when compared to the MD or DO.

To me, any PT that introduces themselves as Dr. anything is trying to elevate themselves and give themselves additional credibility based just on the word "doctor" rather than basing it upon their skill and results.

If they call me "Doc" I don't correct them, but I tell them that I'm not a real doctor, the real doctors save lives. There are no physical therapy emergencies. There are lots of doctor emergencies. If someone ever yells "Is there a doctor in the house!!" how many PTs with their doctorates seriously think that they are being asked for help?
 
truthseeker said:
my opinion on this subject remains the same. I will NEVER introduce myself as Dr. anything. I work in a hospital setting. I am probably the orthopedic expert on our staff but I am not a doctor. i have my doctorate in PT but it implies much more than i am allowed to do by statute.

I think it is great that the APTA is pushing the DPT but I think that it might be a response to the chiropractors calling themselves doctor all the time. i think the designation assigns more knowledge and credibility than either the DPT or the DC deserves. We are experts in our scope but our scope is limited when compared to the MD or DO.

To me, any PT that introduces themselves as Dr. anything is trying to elevate themselves and give themselves additional credibility based just on the word "doctor" rather than basing it upon their skill and results.

If they call me "Doc" I don't correct them, but I tell them that I'm not a real doctor, the real doctors save lives. There are no physical therapy emergencies. There are lots of doctor emergencies. If someone ever yells "Is there a doctor in the house!!" how many PTs with their doctorates seriously think that they are being asked for help?
Click to expand...

I disagree with you. I never introduce myself as doctor either but that doesn't negate the fact that I earned a doctorate. I understand that the term doctor is synonymous with physician in society and thus it could be misleading by arrogant statements of god doctor status all the time like chiropractors. However, the physical therapy profession is certainly worthy of doctorate level training and beyond (i.e. board specialization and residency/fellowship) and many other professions likely are as well, and I feel a doctor in reality is a reflection of level of schooling in a particular area of study (if you disregard all the brainwashing, cable TV shows). The term doctor does not reflect occupation or scope in my opinion.

I also think it is a lame argument that only MD/DO's should call themselves doctor because they're the only ones who respond to emergencies and save lives. They are not. Oh Yea....because I have a DPT and if I was at the scene of a MVA, I would run over and say "I'm a doctor and I'm in charge." What a joke. Do you think a dermatologist would be more helpful in an emergency than a paramedic? And yes there are emergencies in physical therapy. Don't you think preventing a patient fall is an emergency? I wonder if a 80 y.o. frail female patient falling could be detrimental? Me and another PT once had to excavate a patient trapped between a wall and her toilet prone after a fall (very small space), it took us about 5 minutes to get her out with about 20 people watching and she spent a couple days in the hospital. I don't remember seeing a neurosurgeon on scene, maybe we should've waited for a "doctor" to come. J/k it was either us or a CNA or firemen/paramedics. Seems to me that a PT is by far better to deal with that emergency (getting the patient the hell out of that position ASAP and safely). How about a patient with syncope due to orthostatic hypotension? Should I quickly swivel the patient into a supine position if they're about to pass out in sitting EOB or should I call a "real doctor" who would take 10 times as long to do the same thing or call the nurse. Maybe the patient should just fall face first on the floor because a doctor isn't present. How about in an outpatient clinic if a patient was having a heart attack? I don't remember being trained to scream "get a doctor!!!". I would rather do CPR/ get an AED, etc and call 911. I wonder if your state board or the APTA would disagree with you that PT's don't respond in emergencies or can't help in emergencies.

Summary: doctorate signifies level of schooling in a particular area. It does not reflect occupation, it's just that there's lots of lame cable TV shows and tunnel vision/closed mindedness that make people feel otherwise. An MD/DO masquerading as an expert or supervisor in physical therapy (which they constantly do) is flagrantly inappropriate. A PT introducing themself as a doctor in a clinically appropriate scenario is not.

Also, I thought you were a very experienced PT but you say you have a doctorate in PT? Did you earn a post-professional doctorate or one of those transitional DPT's? If it is a transitional DPT, your amount of formal education/training in PT and baseline coursework is not even close to what people do today to become a PT. From that you would have a skewed understanding of what it is like to get a bachelor's degree, followed by 3 years of grad school. Not to mention thousands of dollars more in debt and having to listen to people that don't know what they're talking about.

By the way, physicians are called doctor right out of medical school just so you know, so don't waste my time with the residency argument either. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop illegitimizing me/fellow PT's hard work by mocking a DPT.
 
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"I'm Dr. DPT, and I'm going to be your physical therapist." You've earned the title, use it.
 
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