resurrected: Amphetamines/Ritalin/Adderral Thread

i dont see how it would help you in the long term. it's a stimulant, so if you had 2hrs of sleep, it might make you a bit more alert, but it's still not the same as getting 8hrs of sleep. if you're already alert, you need memory enhancers(the type that alzheimers use), but no proof that they work.
on the other hand, stimulants are good for endurance sports. look up pubmed for ephedrine+coffee.

I prefer exercise, adequate sleep, good nutrition, and good work habits (i.e. starting to study the first day of class as opposed to 3 days before the final) over any stimulants.

jochi1543 said:

I prefer exercise, adequate sleep, good nutrition, and good work habits (i.e. starting to study the first day of class as opposed to 3 days before the final) over any stimulants.

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sounds stupid and you feel like a tool when you start, but it is the best. i feel a million times better and am not stressed.

cbrons said:

There was an old thread from about 3 years ago regarding this same topic. The last thread didn't get closed down so I decided to just copy the disclaimer the old creator had (cause it seemed to work with the moderators):

Ground rules:
1) Do not discuss illegal ways of getting this drug (including, but not limited to...Mexico, faking a diagnosis, theft, etc...)
2) Do not ask for, or give, medical advice of any sort. Anything that could be construed as medical advice (ie...discussion of optimum dosage, personal experiences with the drug, etc...) should be avoided.
3) When in doubt, stick to opinions and stick to the prompt!
**4) It should be okay to quote information that is publicly or widely available online (ie. manufacturer website, WebMD, etc...), just remember rule #2.

My question is: Is Amphetamine salts/Adderall (without Rx) use as a method of enhancing cognition in studying and test-taking wrong? It happens all the time here at my school and I wanted to see if it is used as much at other universities... your thoughts...

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My own roommate used adderrall an ENTIRE quarter multiple times a week. (I go to the 2nd top UC - in my opinion the top 1 so it's very competitive). His experience turns me away from adderrall because he said after stopping he found it so much harder to concentrate on ANYTHING at all (conversations, schoolwork, etc.). He grew so dependent that it's taken months for him to get almost 100% back to normal (he still thinks he isnt 100% back the way he was before it).

It's SO common at my school...Allows you to stay in a library for 8 hrs getting pure work done...oh well every drug has a side effect so even if you arent caught with illegal drugs on you your body will probably suffer long term haha

"Allows you to stay in a library for 8 hrs getting pure work done...oh well every drug has a side effect haha "

somehow i find this hard to believe. i tried ritalin once and it did nothing other than keep me from being sleepy. That meant i could watch tv 8hrs straight.

trust me it does it...careful writing about personal experiences with drugs so you dont get warned/banned for it!

Its abused "heavily" at my university.

Do yourself a favor and don't start taking it. There's an old saying in the drug question asking world that goes something like, "if someone's asking about their 'friend' using a drug, it's usually about the person asking the question," so if you are using aderall do yourself a favor and stop. It's an addictive drug that's easily abused and will only lead to trouble. Don't forget that if you ever get stopped by a cop and he sees your pupils, you're going in for being under the influence or possession of a controlled substance.

cbrons said:

Thanks for the concern but I did actually mean my friends take it legally for ADHD treatment. As a side note, a police officer seeing dilated pupils isn't probable cause to arrest, search or even question you.

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Not for me. I was taking ritalin once, a cop stopped me and looked at my eyes, and then questioned and searched me. I'm also taking the 5th and not incriminating myself about this. I had a valid reason for taking it at the time, but the side effects of the drug outweighed the benefits.

Whats funny is that I actually have ADD (diagnosed around age 10) and took Ritalin from 4th-10th grade. I stopped taking it because I felt I could manage it on my own, which has proven to be true for the most part.

Since then I tried taking Adderal a few times and because I actually have ADD it didn't do anything dramatic for me. People who genuinely need the drugs don't get the intense side effects of it

Adderall is pretty good stuff. The only bad part is I crash pretty hard on it. I don't use it anymore though.

CycleCA said:

Do yourself a favor and don't start taking it. There's an old saying in the drug question asking world that goes something like, "if someone's asking about their 'friend' using a drug, it's usually about the person asking the question," so if you are using aderall do yourself a favor and stop. It's an addictive drug that's easily abused and will only lead to trouble. Don't forget that if you ever get stopped by a cop and he sees your pupils, you're going in for being under the influence or possession of a controlled substance.

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That's a bunch of hogwash.

I've been taking Adderall XR for about a year, and it's really done wonders for me.

I had undiagnosed inattentive ADHD for years and people just passed me off as lazy or unintelligent. I'll admit that I was bored with school during my undergrad. But, when I started my post-bacc I was so dedicated and enthusiastic about learning, yet the material wasn't clicking. I was putting all of my effort into studying, but my mind was still getting distracted by little things (thirsty, hungry, I should vacuum, dishes in the sink, I wonder when Jupiter is going to transit, how much would it cost to replace the broken door actuator in my car, etc.). It was really disheartening and I was at a loss. I became depressed and went to speak with a therapist. She made the diagnosis and gave me a prescription.

Say what you will, but with proper usage and dosage, medication can make a huge difference. I pulled a 2.6 up to a 3.6 my first semester and 4.0 for the past two semesters. It really helped me focus so I could build good study skills on my own; I don't even need to take it everyday and can still function very well. I guess it all comes down to whether people view it as a crutch or as a tool to help improve behaviors and habits.

I've never heard about anyone at my school abusing drugs for performance enhancement, but I'm sure it happens.

Yea, I know the disclaimer said "personal experiences with the drug ...should be avoided"; but whatever. Without any sort of personal experience, we'd just have speculation and heresay. Besides, I certainly don't condone abusing drugs for performance enhancement or recreation; but under the proper supervision of a health care professional, attention deficit medications can really improve the quality of life for someone with a deficiency. It did for me.

The lengths to which some people will go to get good grades never ceases to amaze me. I can't imagine how little common sense one musth ave in order to put a drug into their body in order to study. And before anyone jumps in and accuses me of hypocrisy, let me say I do not even drink soda, coffee, or tea if it has caffeine. So I am "drug-free," when I study.

Meatwad said:

The lengths to which some people will go to get good grades never ceases to amaze me. I can't imagine how little common sense one musth ave in order to put a drug into their body in order to study. And before anyone jumps in and accuses me of hypocrisy, let me say I do not even drink soda, coffee, or tea if it has caffeine. So I am "drug-free," when I study.

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Wow meatwad...thats so good. Congrats! a few years back i used to drink at least 1 soda per day.

Now i drink only a half can of soda when i do (not used to the carbonation) which is only once a week or less.

I dont do any energy drinks n crap because i know a kid who drinks at least 2 per day and he looks like hell...and he has said his heart had hurt before at random times which is horrible...and hes 19...go figure

jr doctor in sd said:

Wow meatwad...thats so good. Congrats! a few years back i used to drink at least 1 soda per day.

Now i drink only a half can of soda when i do (not used to the carbonation) which is only once a week or less.

I dont do any energy drinks n crap because i know a kid who drinks at least 2 per day and he looks like hell...and he has said his heart had hurt before at random times which is horrible...and hes 19...go figure

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Yeah, I gave up caffeine ~5 years ago. Started giving me really bad headaches after drinking something with caffeine.

Enthalpy430 said:

That's a bunch of hogwash.

I've been taking Adderall XR for about a year, and it's really done wonders for me.

I had undiagnosed inattentive ADHD for years and people just passed me off as lazy or unintelligent. I'll admit that I was bored with school during my undergrad. But, when I started my post-bacc I was so dedicated and enthusiastic about learning, yet the material wasn't clicking. I was putting all of my effort into studying, but my mind was still getting distracted by little things (thirsty, hungry, I should vacuum, dishes in the sink, I wonder when Jupiter is going to transit, how much would it cost to replace the broken door actuator in my car, etc.). It was really disheartening and I was at a loss. I became depressed and went to speak with a therapist. She made the diagnosis and gave me a prescription.

Say what you will, but with proper usage and dosage, medication can make a huge difference. I pulled a 2.6 up to a 3.6 my first semester and 4.0 for the past two semesters. It really helped me focus so I could build good study skills on my own; I don't even need to take it everyday and can still function very well. I guess it all comes down to whether people view it as a crutch or as a tool to help improve behaviors and habits.

I've never heard about anyone at my school abusing drugs for performance enhancement, but I'm sure it happens.

Yea, I know the disclaimer said "personal experiences with the drug ...should be avoided"; but whatever. Without any sort of personal experience, we'd just have speculation and heresay. Besides, I certainly don't condone abusing drugs for performance enhancement or recreation; but under the proper supervision of a health care professional, attention deficit medications can really improve the quality of life for someone with a deficiency. It did for me.

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Maybe for you or someone else who has a legitimate reason for taking amphetamines/ritalin there's a use, but for most people taking 3-4 pills a day with no medical reason just to study, there's a problem... and this will lead to addiction, psychological problems/physical problems, etc etc. Don't try and condone this stuff; anyone who thinks they can use it with no bad side effects or problems is gravely mistaken. Anyone who knows anything about this drug will tell you it's bad news.

CycleCA said:

Maybe for you or someone else who has a legitimate reason for taking amphetamines/ritalin there's a use, but for most people taking 3-4 pills a day with no medical reason just to study, there's a problem... and this will lead to addiction, psychological problems/physical problems, etc etc. Don't try and condone this stuff; anyone who thinks they can use it with no bad side effects or problems is gravely mistaken. Anyone who knows anything about this drug will tell you it's bad news.

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I was actually saying that your comment about cops searching you based on dilated pupils is hogwash. It isn't enough to constitute probable cause. Your initial statement appears to argue that if I got pulled over and had dilated pupils from Adderall (a side effect that I've never experienced with it), that I would get arrested. That's just not how the law works.

On the other side of the coin, say some kid was taking huge amounts of Adderall without a prescription and got pulled over. He's twitchy and has dilated pupils and the officer asks if the kid has taken anything. If he says, "yes, I'm on Adderall but I don't have my prescription info with me", the officer would have no way to verify whether the kid had a script for it or not. Even if he did, it would take so long to verify, no cop would bother as they would need a warrant to obtain medical records.


I am on 30mg/day, so someone taking 3 or 4 pills per day would be dosing 120mg/day, which is just an ridiculous amount

If you read my post, which you quoted, I said that I certainly don't condone abusing Adderall, or any drug for that matter. But, that is the distinction between regulated, prescribed usage for a legitimate reason and behavior indicative of an addict or a ***** using drugs to study.

Like virtually every other medication available, Adderall, and similar drugs, have side effects that may be an inherent result of taking them or caused by misuse. I've had side effects, albeit mild ones. My sleep pattern was a little irregular and my appetite has diminished. However, those subsided with time and the benefits of being on it outweighed the problems.

I can't condone Adderall and say that everyone should take it because it "totally helped me get a handle on things", but I think making a blanket statement saying that anyone who takes it is setting themselves up for trouble is equally foolish.


Keep in mind that I agree with you and everyone saying that people who abuse it are irresponsible and stupid for doing so.

Enthalpy430 said:

I was actually saying that your comment about cops searching you based on dilated pupils is hogwash. It isn't enough to constitute probable cause. Your initial statement appears to argue that if I got pulled over and had dilated pupils from Adderall (a side effect that I've never experienced with it), that I would get arrested. That's just not how the law works.

On the other side of the coin, say some kid was taking huge amounts of Adderall without a prescription and got pulled over. He's twitchy and has dilated pupils and the officer asks if the kid has taken anything. If he says, "yes, I'm on Adderall but I don't have my prescription info with me", the officer would have no way to verify whether the kid had a script for it or not. Even if he did, it would take so long to verify, no cop would bother as they would need a warrant to obtain medical records.


I am on 30mg/day, so someone taking 3 or 4 pills per day would be dosing 120mg/day, which is just an ridiculous amount

If you read my post, which you quoted, I said that I certainly don't condone abusing Adderall, or any drug for that matter. But, that is the distinction between regulated, prescribed usage for a legitimate reason and behavior indicative of an addict or a ***** using drugs to study.

Like virtually every other medication available, Adderall, and similar drugs, have side effects that may be an inherent result of taking them or caused by misuse. I've had side effects, albeit mild ones. My sleep pattern was a little irregular and my appetite has diminished. However, those subsided with time and the benefits of being on it outweighed the problems.

I can't condone Adderall and say that everyone should take it because it "totally helped me get a handle on things", but I think making a blanket statement saying that anyone who takes it is setting themselves up for trouble is equally foolish.


Keep in mind that I agree with you and everyone saying that people who abuse it are irresponsible and stupid for doing so.

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Yes, I agree that abusing it is irresponsible and stupid. I've heard so many horror stories about aderall/ritalin it's not even funny. My experience is that many people have gotten started taking pills to stay awake, study, or lose weight and then become dependent... with serious physical and mental problems. Have you researched the side effects of these drugs? Paranoia, exacerbation of underlying mental problems, anxiety, HTN, nervous breakdowns, and that's just a start. After a while, you get a serious physical/mental addiction and then you're screwed. I might sound melodramatic, but when I hear about someone considering taking aderall I will tell them everything I possibly can because I'm genuinely concerned. I will try and prevent them -- or others -- from starting down a long and dangerous path of prescription medication abuse. What if someone started taking aderall to study, started abusing it, and then got failed out of med school? Or got sued for malpractice after a drug test when a patient croaks? Or gets popped by the cops and loses his/her medical license? Or ends up in rehab at 35? Or starts using other drugs because they ran out of pills? Or throws away their future in some other way because they thought that taking speed pills was harmless? Drugs aren't something that should be played with.
It doesn't sound like you know very much about cops, either. You can play the speculation game and say that you know your rights, but when someone gets stopped by the cops and appears under the influence they WILL be searched and possibly arrested. Maybe you haven't heard of getting a DUI while on prescription meds? Or public intoxication? Or possession without a prescription? I know for a fact that if someone gets pulled over or talks with a cop w/ dilated pupils he's getting searched and if there's any unprescribed meds, they're going to the pokey. I know cops personally, and I've done tons of work with substance users in and out of the court system.
SO I ask, why promote use of addictive substances? It's fine to say that people w/ ADHD benefit from pharmacologics, but it's NOT OKAY to say that anyone can take these pills with no side effects.

Here's some pupil dilation for you, too:
"Mydriasis is an excessive dilation of the pupil due to disease or drugs... Many other drugs such as amphetamines and psychedelic drugs (LSD, psychedelic mushrooms, mescaline, and MDMA) are also known to cause mydriasis."

Booga booga!!! If you take drug X it will ruin your life in mere seconds!!!

I can make this easy for you:
If you don't have a prescription for a controlled substance and get a possession charge, it will look absolutely wonderful when you apply to medical school or get a DEA number. Unless you absolutely NEED it for academic success, it is stupid to use it merely for this fact. If you do absolutely NEED it for academic success, I would investigate the reasons why.

As for the physiology of booga, booga - BS. Amphetamines have been used to treat everything from the frownies to cancer for the last 60-70 years with no serious side effects at prescription (note I said prescription) dosages. That's one of the reasons that we're willing to give them to kids without a second thought.

Don't kid yourself - if you use amphetamines you will build a resistance (doses are titrated for a reason) and you won't be able to come off them easily. If you don't absolutely need them, it's just stupid to get hooked on them.

I don't agree with non-prescription use because it's just a dumb thing to do - if you really need them then get a 'script and if you don't really need them then don't use them. BUT, taking a pill the night before an exam to cram your ass off is not abuse. If so, put down that cup of coffee too - people abuse coffee more than any other drug on the planet.

Some cops might find dialated pupils ALONE cause for questioning, search, etc.
And, hell, maybe some will not...they might look for the pupil thing in combination with other evidence...jittery, nervous, etc.

Cripes.

TeaKae said:

Some cops might find dialated pupils ALONE cause for questioning, search, etc.
And, hell, maybe some will not...they might look for the pupil thing in combination with other evidence...jittery, nervous, etc.

Cripes.

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If you've ever seen someone with substantially dilated pupils and you've encountered people on drugs as much as a cop has, you know when someone is under the influence. Ever see someone's pupils on ecstasy? On cocaine? On mushrooms? It's ridiculous how big their pupils are. If I saw someone with large pupils and I was a cop, I would know that they're either 1) Under the influence or 2) Just had an eye exam or 3) Just had head trauma. In any case, dilated pupils is probable cause.

Ok, so what if it's dark outside, and the cop shines a flashlight into the person's eyes, and then their pupils instinctively constrict? Unless the drug negates that instinct? Eh, I dunno, I don't really have anything here, I just get annoyed how fired up your guys' argument was getting.

Maxprime said:

BUT, taking a pill the night before an exam to cram your ass off is not abuse. If so, put down that cup of coffee too - people abuse coffee more than any other drug on the planet.

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Shut up. There's a difference between use and abuse. Drug abuse entails specific characteristics that simply do not happen w/ coffee.

TeaKae said:

Ok, so what if it's dark outside, and the cop shines a flashlight into the person's eyes, and then their pupils instinctively constrict? Unless the drug negates that instinct? Eh, I dunno, I don't really have anything here, I just get annoyed how fired up your guys' argument was getting.

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People's pupils on drugs are ridiculously cartoonish. Very easy to spot. And about this whole discussion, I feel strongly about discouraging people from using adderall and that's why I say the things I do. It's not wrong to try and prevent someone from making a terrible mistake, the way I see it.

Maxprime said:

Booga booga!!!

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Booga booga you! Is that like voodoo?

TeaKae said:

\I just get annoyed how fired up your guys' argument was getting.

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I'm glad I wasn't the only one getting annoyed.

The break down in communication is that CycleCA is ignoring the fact that my experiences are based on my own responsible and supervised usage. His experiences center around things he's seen when dealing with substances abusers in the legal system. The problem here is that he doesn't differentiate the two.

.Have you researched the side effects of these drugs?... ..SO I ask, why promote use of addictive substances? It's fine to say that people w/ ADHD benefit from pharmacologics, but it's NOT OKAY to say that anyone can take these pills with no side effects.

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.I've done extensive research on the side effects and my usage has been closely evaluated by myself, my fiancee, and my psychiatrist. Like I said earlier, I am fortunate that my only side effects were slight difficulty falling asleep and minor loss of appetite; both of which were minor and subsided after a few weeks. I never stated that anyone can take Adderall without possible side effects, nor did I advocate taking it without a prescription. It's like he completely ignored everything I said in my post and then felt the need to discredit and misconstrue my statement because it didn't agree with his. Oddly enough, I was agreeing with him on the dangers of abuse. Go figure.

Regarding the hypotheticals; if someone obtains a psychostim without a prescription and overuses or abuses it, they're setting themselves up for a lot of problems.

If a student starts taking it by faking a diagnosis or buying it illegally, begins abusing it and makes it through school and is impaired to properly perform his job and endangers patients, it's a horrible thing. It's no different than driving while intoxicated. Both scenarios are not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" something will go wrong. If someone gets busted for illegal possession and loses his license, there's no one to blame but him/herself. If said person does lose his license though, it's certainly a better outcome than if a patient dies because of an error caused by drug abuse.

.It doesn't sound like you know very much about cops, either.

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I only have three family members in law enforcement with a combined 45+ years of experience in addition to my own interest in the law, and constitutional and civil rights. But he's right, I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I wasn't playing a "speculation game." I just think that he was missing the fact that we were talking about different scenarios.
.
If someone was pulled over by the police and appeared to be under the influence of a psychostim, it's almost certain that the person is taking it improperly or abusing. But if they're tweaking and twitchy, then the officer has probable cause. However, dilated pupils isn't enough to have probable cause if the person isn't behaving suspiciously. Under supervised usage, most of the side effects are mitigated by proper dosage.

If the officer does have a reason to perform a search and finds meds that are unprescribed, then the person should go to jail for possession. But, if a person has a prescription for it and gets pulled over, it's unlikely to be of any consequence because dosage levels are such those behaviors seen in abusers are not common. If someone with a prescription is exceeding the dosage and is literally intoxicated on the medication, then they're an idiot and if it lands them in trouble, oh well.

I'm going to leave this thread, because getting into an argument over this is stupid. I'm agreeing with him on the dangers of abuse, but his bias is preventing him from realizing that we agree and that I am referring only to prescribed, responsible usage. His experience with abusers who most likely started out as regular users, prevents him from making a distinction.

If he wants to discuss it further and possibly reach an accord or mutual understanding, he can send me a PM. Or you know, maybe he'll read everything again and see that I wasn't advocating substance abuse; I just wasn't making a blanket statement and demonizing any and all usage.

You're not picking up on the point of my statements. I'm saying that you can't advocate any sort of use of adderall for someone without a valid prescription and medical necessity because the rates of abuse and misuse are so high. Whether you want to admit it or not, adderall is a powerful stimulant with an unreasonably high rate of addiction.

CycleCA said:

You're not picking up on the point of my statements. I'm saying that you can't advocate any sort of use of adderall for someone without a valid prescription and medical necessity because the rates of abuse and misuse are so high. Whether you want to admit it or not, adderall is a powerful stimulant with an unreasonably high rate of addiction.

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I don't think anyone was advocating that someone without a valid reason should take the drug. If taken at the prescribed rate the drug is unlikely to cause serious addiction problems. I've legally taken Adderall for over a year and I believe it is responsible for my significant grade improvement and increase in my MCAT score. I wasn't offically diagnosed with ADD because as most females with ADD, I am not hyperactive. I made good grades in high school but I never spent more than 1 hour studying so I was never required to sit down and concentrate. I struggled through college and although I always assumed I had ADD I refused to take medication because of the stigma attached. Before I took the MCAT I made the decision to start taking Adderall and I haven't looked back. I don't spend as much time studying and things click when they didn't before. I stopped taking it after I graduated and decided to go without it until med school. Sometimes I wish I was still taking the drug not because it offered some sort 'boost' but because I pay more attention to what I'm doing (which is often helpful in research) and oftentimes stop listening when people are talking to me. I think few people advocate using prescription drugs without a valid reason but for those out there like me it makes a huge difference in our lives-perhaps the difference between going to medical school or not.

CycleCA said:

You're not picking up on the point of my statements. I'm saying that you can't advocate any sort of use of adderall for someone without a valid prescription and medical necessity because the rates of abuse and misuse are so high. Whether you want to admit it or not, adderall is a powerful stimulant with an unreasonably high rate of addiction.

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You're right, I can't advocate any sort of use of Adderall, or any drug, without a valid prescription. I agree that it and similar drugs are dangerous if misused. I'm glad we came to an agreement and understand each other's point of view.

I used to take Ritalin (prescription for ADD as a child) and really, a can of Red Bull does the same thing for me. I don't know why anyone would want to use an expensive illegal substance on the off-chance of getting nailed with a potentially career-ending drug charge when a two-dollar energy drink is pretty near the same thing.

stanleycup said:

For those who think that taking aderol to study (even if you did get it from a friend) is a form of cheating:

How is it different from people who post up at the local 24 hour Starbucks and go all night?

How is better or worse than paying a tutor 20 dollars an hour to help you learn the material before the test?

To me, none of it is cheating.

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So what do you think of steroids in sports? Your post demonstrates a very twisted sense of moral relativism in my opinion.

Steroids are cheating because accomplishment in a sport can only be relative to other players. When you take steriods you give yourself and unfair advantage relative to those players, and thereby bias the game against them.

In life accomplishment is absolute. You don't want to gage people's talent and effort (as in sports), you want them to do the best work possible. If everyone medical student stops Adderol it lowers everyone's ability to learn and results in a lower quality of doctor, which is bad. It doesn't matter that the 'right' person is at the head of the class, because the point is not to have the 'right' person at the head of the class. The point is to turn out doctors who give the best possible standard of care. Your patients aren't going to care if you got your knowledge of medicine by 'cheating', they're just going to want you to be able to fix them.

Its illegal. Isn't that reason enough not to use it? Yes, I have drank before anyone asks. I have also sped on the highway. Call the cops, now.

cbrons said:

My question is: Is Amphetamine salts/Adderall (without Rx) use as a method of enhancing cognition in studying and test-taking wrong? It happens all the time here at my school and I wanted to see if it is used as much at other universities... your thoughts...

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it's not wrong, per se...it just means you're not good enough on your own merit to hack it with the rest of us

(hmm...turns out turkey leftovers are making me mean today...possibly time to step away from the computer...)

Perrotfish said:

Steroids are cheating because accomplishment in a sport can only be relative to other players. When you take steriods you give yourself and unfair advantage relative to those players, and thereby bias the game against them.

In life accomplishment is absolute. You don't want to gage people's talent and effort (as in sports), you want them to do the best work possible. If everyone medical student stops Adderol it lowers everyone's ability to learn and results in a lower quality of doctor, which is bad. It doesn't matter that the 'right' person is at the head of the class, because the point is not to have the 'right' person at the head of the class. The point is to turn out doctors who give the best possible standard of care. Your patients aren't going to care if you got your knowledge of medicine by 'cheating', they're just going to want you to be able to fix them.

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Adcoms don't agree, you are compared to others in admissions and most people that use adderal do so to gain an unfair advantage relative to their peers to increase their chances of acceptance into med school/residency etc. The notion that you can't be a competent doctor without drugs is ludicrous.

If you are doing basic research or anything like that then go ahead and take all the adderal/crack/uppers that you want so you can work in your lab 20 hours a day and maybe you'll publish something worthwhile.

If you've gotten to where you are because you've been willing to drug yourself, thats nothing to be proud of and there are many who can do it without the help.

I understand the pressure to succeed though, but morally I don't think its defensible. Do what you got to do I guess but don't try to rationalize your actions.

stanleycup said:

I do not think this is the rational behind any student's decision to take aderol. I believe that it is used to as a study aid, to better ones own chances at success.

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I disagree. People rarely look to such extreme methods to increase their own chance of success independent of competition. I think if a study was conducted you would find pre-meds use this "study aid" more than others and they use it more now than before. I attribute this to the incredibly competitive environment. Pre-med competition inspires a lot of pathological behavior and I believe drug use is an example of that. Frankly, I don't care what people put in to there bodies or for what reason, but when they are directly competing with me then it becomes a problem. Whether you agree this is their intention or this is the end result.

Similarly, I don't believe people kiss the prof's arse to get an advantage over others, but rather to increase their overall chances of success. My first college professor told the class, "come to my office hours; it is really hard to give someone you know a poor grade."

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If you define success as grades then its definitely to get an advantage over others, since grades exist to compare students. As I mentioned before this is especially relevant amongst the premed community.

I didn't take Kaplan to gain an advantage over others taking the MCAT, I took it to improve my chances of success. I didn't stay up late nights at starbucks to get an advantage over others, it is just my way of stringing multiple hours of study together without flinching.

Again, the coffee argument.

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Somewhere you draw the line. I don't feel sufficiently well versed on the effects of adderal vs other stimulants so I will not provide a scientific case for why this is the place to draw the line. It is however the place legislation draws the line. This is not a moral matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the law but a practical matter. If something is illegal then less people will use it and hence your comparitive advantage from using it will increase making it even less fair.

Your morals are not the same as everyone else's morals.

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This is certainly true which why I said "I don't think its defensible." However, if you believe in fairness between competitors then I think you have to concede that drug enhanced performance is not moral. If you've made it all the way up the ladder go ahead and take whatever drugs you want if they don't impede your performance, I couldn't care less. In this environment absolute production is whats important as another person stated. As a premed though relative production is what carries weight and thus drug enhancement is unfair.

DROGBA: This post was not an attack on you. You were the most recent poster to bring up some decent points and these are simply counter arguments. Besides, I would never try to burn bridges with a fellow Drogba fan.

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Don't worry about this. I have no problem having a discussion with an intelligent and respectful memeber of this community, and you have been both.

As for whoever made that steroid argument, your point is irrelevant. Steroids are used to gain an unfair advantage over others. If you are the biggest strongest guy in the league and your eye sight is improved, reflexes become more explosive, etc. you are going to have an advantage over those around you by the mere fact that they are not as big, strong, fast, etc. as you are.

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I made the steroid argument, ironically . I think what I said earlier in this post will show you why I don't think its irrelevant. I actually think you yourself show why its not irrelevant by describing the effects of steroids.

cbrons said:

I dont think you two are going to agree - your epistemology isnt the same.

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You can argue morals but you can't argue legislation. Both academic cheating and adderal usage will earn you a sanction from your university. Unfortunately, it may not be easy for the schools to establish the intent of your drug usage. If it were perhaps it would carry the same punishment as cheating. Perhaps not.

Personally, I really don't see how you can argue that using something illegal to enhance your competiveness is fair. All you can argue is that the person taken adderal is doing what he has to do to achieve what he wants and that if you choose not to use it its your loss and you just don't want it bad enough. I think thats a very problematic argument.

Again, my moral objection is purely within the realm of a competitive environment. If your goal is to maximize your productive output at the expense of your health thats your business. At the premed level though this is an acceptable and unfair advantage with respect to those who don't use prohibited substances due to their moral objection or legal considerations.

the drugs y'all are talking about I believe ONLY helps to improve mental alertness and reduces distraction.

But how is this related to intelligence and retention?

I don't think drugs -- legal or illegal--- are going to increase somebody's level of understanding material or concepts.

retention after understanding for future use requires memory strategies like writing notes in suitable formats.


What to do with increased mental alertness and stamina without ability to understand and retention?

stanleycup said:

Drogba:

I guess you were that person, my bad. Politically speaking you make very good arguments that I am inclined to give a nod of approval too. I guess in this particular situation I am giving less consideration to the politics and more consideration to the moral question inherent to the debate; after all, legislation tends to be simply the manifestation of the popular morale of the times or at least to that of the powers at be.

I think you win the argument but I still disagree.

I need a nap.

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Yay I WINZ

In all seriousness, you provided a rational dissenting opinion and you allowed me to more fully develop my own ideas which means this was a conversation worth having. Buon riposo!