Medical Students w/ Children...question

You ought to be commended for your accomplishments thus far. I want to say that right up front. I am a parent (three-year-old daughter; born after MSI). A supportive and available spouse/SO is absolutely critical. In MSI and MSII, if you are disciplined and don't goof off, you can pretty much set your own schedule. Some medical students choose not to go to class. I went to class, but I always studied at home so I could be around my daughter. In MSIII and MSIV, you lose control of your time, and this is where you must expect not to be there. If you have to be there at 5:00am, you HAVE to be there - no matter what is going on at home. Then there is overnight call. One strategy a parent in my school took was to take one rotation on and one rotation off. This allowed him to be at home more often, and he will still graduate at the same time as me this May. My wife had an early second trimester miscarriage on the first day of my surgical rotation, and so school and family were much harder to manage at that time, and it was a tough situation overall. If there is sickness, it's similarly tough. These are things that single med student don't and can't reasonably expect to understand. Such is the privilege of being a medical student and a parent, but it comes at a cost.... If your school will allow you to set your MSIII schedule (mine operates by lottery), you can alternate heavy rotations (surgery, ob/gyn, medicine, neurosurgery at my school), with lighter rotations (family medicine, radiology, psychiatry, peds at my school). As a resident, it's obviously worse (specialty dependent). I wish I could say that it's possible to be a *great* medical student and a *great* parent, but I honestly don't think many people find this to be the case, and something has to give. Medical school is not so much intellectually-challenging as it is time-consuming. The time factor is such an issue, but you can make that up on vacation time and on your days off. Overall, medical school has been pretty much what I expected it to be. However, you WILL manage, you WILL pass, and you'll be fine because it looks like you have a good support network. Good luck!

JRock310 said:

for all of you who are actually in medical school and have children...

have you found that you have had enough time to be involved with your family AND accomplish what you need to in med school?

i am applying this summer and would be in the class of 2014. ive posted on here before (but just in case you aren't familiar w/ me), i have a 4.5 year old daughter. i am in a single parent program at my school, and my daughter and i came here when she was only 8 months old. i have been through college 100% with her as a single parent and know how hard it can be (but also how rewarding). i have managed to keep a balance between my family life and my school life, but of course there are times when it is harder to do so. i have the support of my family, and i am lucky that they have been there for me throughout everything. i do have a boyfriend i met here my freshman year (he graduated in '07), we will have been together 3 years this summer and will probably be engaged later this year. he will be moving w/ us wherever i get to school, so i will have his love and support through this, too. i guess my question is...im nervous that i will not have time to "be there" for my daughter and for him. it is really important to me to able to be actively involved in her life, and i just want to know if it is really possible to be able to do this while in medical school (or is it as ridiculously demanding as everyone says, and you wont have time for anyone else)...any insight at all would be extremely helpful. im not asking if it is going to be difficult (i know it will be), im just asking if it can be and has been done.

thank you!

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It is not possible to have meaningful family life during third year and most of fourth year of medical school. It will be impossible during your intern year and your family life will continue to suffer during residency.

Sorry. Essentially you will be sacrificing your family to medicine. You think you won't and swear that you will be the exception but it will happen; not to mention that you will come up with all kinds of rationalizations after the fact.

Oh, and your marriage will likely not survive the ordeal either.

Oh, and your marriage will likely not survive the ordeal either.[/quote]

I'm really sorry YOUR marriage obviously didn't survive, but I am friends with people whose marriages have/did. Please don't make blanket statements like this that aren't true. Many people are married and have children throughout medical school. Maybe it isn't a 1950's style type of situation, but they make it work.

No one should ever be told their marriage won't survive. Maybe you should visit www.mommd.com to see many many women who balance marriage and children during school.

Please refrain from posting negative and untrue things in the future. Not only does it not keep with the encouraging spirit on the nontrad board, but it is simply not true either. Either way - it isn't welcome here.

I agree with scottish chap. First two years it's possible to balance - you probably won't honor many classes but you can definitely spend as much time with both family and studies to not fail any either.

third and fourth year you lose control. you will definitely need some kind of help/support here. You'll have nights on call, weekends, and when you're done at the hospital after 10 or 12 hours a day you'll still have to study or prepare presentations. Loans won't cover the cost of an au pair or nanny - but perhaps you might get lucky and find an elementary ed student who would be willing to be an aupair for a lower cost which might be/include room and board. i don't know how reasonable this plan would be however.

To preface I am in the Georgetown SMP program and I have no children but as the SMP program is very similar to the first year of medical school and I live with my fiance I thought I might be able to help (also my parents are both physicians so I thought I could give you some perspective from the child's point of view). I would say just be very aware of what your boyfriend is sacrificing to help you and make sure he knows how grateful you are. My fiance moved to DC with me and will be likely moving again in august for my education. He's incredibly supportive but as I have very little free time it gets frustrating for him that I am not more available. With time we have been to able to understand each better and I think that with any strong couple you just have to find a balance that works for you. As for being the child of a physician, the thing my parents did right was that I never felt less important than their work even though they spent so much time at the office/hospital. I always had at least one parent at my basketball games and school activities. Even though both of my parents came home tired they always spent their evenings focused on their children and we have a great relationship because of it. Best of luck!

This post got me to wondering...wouldn't it be nice if there were non-trad boards in the Allo and Osteo current med-students forums just like this one in the Pre-med forum? I often have questions for non-trads who are current students, but not sure where to post them because I don't know if current non-trad med students tend to monitor the pre-med non-trad forum or if they are more likely to be in the allo/osteo med students forums.

Moderators...what do you think?

OP: not trying to hijack your thread--you've just posted a really good question that I, as a mother of a young child also am interested in knowing, and I just want to know where to post more questions like this!

labgirl said:

wouldn't it be nice if there were non-trad boards in the Allo and Osteo current med-students forums just like this one in the Pre-med forum?

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I second this notion.

menotyou7 said:

I second this notion.

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Third!

menotyou7 said:

I second this notion.

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Third... and the funny thing is, as we go from M1s to M4s, more students will 'fit' in this category as they expand their families

maybe my monsters will be able to babysit for theirs

I fourth this motion.

I am currently finishing up my first year of medschool (only two more classes to go!) and I am also the mother of four children, all eight years and younger. My husband stays home with them, cooks and looks after the house, etc. He used to work fulltime, he is staying home because I am in medschool and we feel that his working full-time and my medschool schedule combined would be very hectic and stressful for us and the children.

There is one other medstudent in my class with four children. He stays much later to study than I do. I am home almost every day by 730p. This other student with four children often stays past 10p. He gets better grades than I get. I read to my kids and tuck them in every night. These are life's tradeoffs.

I do hear that things get rough in third year. But we didn't expect this to be easy. We went into this knowing this would be hard, that I would be gone a lot, that he would be alone with the kids a lot, etc.

First year has pretty much flown by, I am very optimistic about the coming years. Good luck, I am sure you can make it work!

melanoleuca said:

It is not possible to have meaningful family life during third year and most of fourth year of medical school. It will be impossible during your intern year and your family life will continue to suffer during residency.

Sorry. Essentially you will be sacrificing your family to medicine. You think you won't and swear that you will be the exception but it will happen; not to mention that you will come up with all kinds of rationalizations after the fact.

Oh, and your marriage will likely not survive the ordeal either.

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Based on your assessment, I went ahead and divorced my pregnant wife. Why bother ruining my career when any energy I spend on my family just gets in the way. Better to ruin my family now and get it over with. Like a pulling off a band-aid in one rip.

nontradfogie said:

Based on your assessment, I went ahead and divorced my pregnant wife. Why bother ruining my career when any energy I spend on my family just gets in the way. Better to ruin my family now and get it over with. Like a pulling off a band-aid in one rip.

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Good man! Not only am I divorcing my husband, I'm selling my children to the highest bidder to offset the costs of medical school! I figure the one in utero should fetch a pretty high price...

Nanon said:

Good man! Not only am I divorcing my husband, I'm selling my children to the highest bidder to offset the costs of medical school! I figure the one in utero should fetch a pretty high price...

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If going to med school is the toughest thing this guy thinks anyone has ever done, he is in for lots of surprises in his life

nontradfogie said:

Based on your assessment, I went ahead and divorced my pregnant wife. Why bother ruining my career when any energy I spend on my family just gets in the way. Better to ruin my family now and get it over with. Like a pulling off a band-aid in one rip.

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Look, the OP asked and I answered. Many specialties have an almost 100 percent divorce rate in residency and, as even non-medical couples have about a 50-50 chance of ending up divorced, it is not a great leap to assume that residency will be hard, perhaps fatal, to your marriage.

Maybe the OP was looking for affirmation, not advice. Those of you who are not yet residents, let me caution you to not get to complacent. I thought I had a strong marriage too.

glamqueen said:

I'm really sorry YOUR marriage obviously didn't survive, but I am friends with people whose marriages have/did. Please don't make blanket statements like this that aren't true. Many people are married and have children throughout medical school. Maybe it isn't a 1950's style type of situation, but they make it work.

No one should ever be told their marriage won't survive. Maybe you should visit www.mommd.com to see many many women who balance marriage and children during school.

Please refrain from posting negative and untrue things in the future. Not only does it not keep with the encouraging spirit on the nontrad board, but it is simply not true either. Either way - it isn't welcome here.

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Whoa. I said "likely" won't survive, not "Absolutely won't survive," which is statistically a true statement. And, as I have close to 10,000 posts on SDN (in a different user name related to my current one), and have been on SDN from my first day of medical school and now have 89 days left of residency in addition to being the ultimate non-traditional type, I am more than qualified to give any advice at all and you probably should at least consider it seriously even if you reject it.

I don't give a crap about www.mommd.com. I know several female residents with stay-at-home husbands who have had severe marital problems secondary to most men not really wanting to be stay-at-home husbands.

Deepa100 said:

If going to med school is the toughest thing this guy thinks anyone has ever done, he is in for lots of surprises in his life

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Dude, the difficulty of your life non-withstanding, medical school and residency had the very real potential of switching the priority of your life from your wife and family to medicine. It is not a regular career with mostly decent hours and a decent lifestyle and, once you get sucked in you have the very real chance of making your wife and children feel like displaced persons.

I suppose we're a bit off topic, but I have researched this pretty thoroughly, and cannot find statistics to support this -- on second look, it seems like most of the stats that I could find show divorce rates for physicians, not for MD/DOs going through residency. I have read that certain specialties (psychiatry) have higher divorce rates; it seems logical that surgical specialties would as well given the longer hours, can you please share your source(s) on this? If I were undecided between a few specialties, it would make a difference to me to know that one had a much higher divorce rate than another. thanks

the difficulties of married & career are not altogether foreign; I've heard one cannot be a good i-banker and have a good marriage (which is why I never went to NYC)

melanoleuca said:

Dude, the difficulty of your life non-withstanding, medical school and residency had the very real potential of switching the priority of your life from your wife and family to medicine. It is not a regular career with mostly decent hours and a decent lifestyle and, once you get sucked in you have the very real chance of making your wife and children feel like displaced persons.

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I am a she. I appreciate your warnings. I already had a long and busy engineering career with long hours. So, I am somewhat familiar with the life style. I also did two masters degrees while working FT. Anyone in Engineering can tell you it is no easy task. I got divorced once too but it was not because of long hours.

I am truly sorry that your marriage fell apart. But we are a pretty close-knit (older than average med student) couple and we will do whatever it takes to make this work for us, without a doubt.

I am sure you will find your soul mate at some point and see life in a different light.

OP, Good luck with the application process this year. I'm also applying and will mostly likely be a single mom without a significant other to help out. My daughter will be 10 when I hope to enter into medical school which will make it a little easier for me during the first two years of school. I'm not sure what's going to happen in years three and four but I know I have my family to back me up it necessary. I truly feel that if this is what you want to do in life there is always a way to balance it and your family. I'm sure as hell going to find a way to.

Deepa100 said:

I am a she. I appreciate your warnings. I already had a long and busy engineering career with long hours. So, I am somewhat familiar with the life style. I also did two masters degrees while working FT. Anyone in Engineering can tell you it is no easy task. I got divorced once too but it was not because of long hours.

I am truly sorry that your marriage fell apart. But we are a pretty close-knit (older than average med student) couple and we will do whatever it takes to make this work for us, without a doubt.

I am sure you will find your soul mate at some point and see life in a different light.

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With respect, you have no idea what you are getting into in regard to life style. First and second year of medical school will be fine for you but somewhere in third year you are going to say, "Yikes, at least when I was an engineer I had time to eat lunch and take a pee."

I was an engineer, by the way. You need to read my blog:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/

Things are getting a little heated here. It's not about who is right or wrong. Try to be supportive, guys.

Also, keep in mind that medicine doesn't have the real estate on long hours and hard work. In the words of my wife when I voiced concerns about the time commitment for medical training before I took the MCAT: "since the day I met you, you've always juggled too many pies at once and worked way more than the average person. I'd rather that you do that in a career you really want."

Many careers have long hours, physical and emotional stress, and there is no reason why the OP should worry that medical school and residency should be more damaging to a relationship than any other career with long training and low pay as a trainee. Marriage is a commitment - not a warm, fuzzy feeling that can easily be taken away from you by a career. Most people walk because they choose to.

Scottish Chap said:

Marriage is a commitment - not a warm, fuzzy feeling that can easily be taken away from you by a career. Most people walk because they choose to.

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This. And while I haven't done a residency, I have just completed 15 years of a hardcore marriage. My husband worked between 80 and 120 hours a week for about 5 of those years, and still works up to 60. He's not a doctor, but I can guarantee you that there were days when he didn't eat or pee. But it's not just work issues that marriages face and survive or don't. We went through 4 years of abject poverty before he started working like that, and I suppose I didn't mind him working like that because I was going to school, taking care of my schizophrenic mother and working a very tough job myself.

And oh, without a doubt, juggling kids when you work as hard as both of us do, particularly without family support, takes it all to a whole new level. He goes to daycare / preschool all day, and then gets all of our attention the minute we get home. He is happy, healthy and engaged, and that's the only rationalization I need. My kids could do much, much worse for parents than two people who love (feed, clothe, shelter, educate, tickle, don't hit, read to, entertain, protect, hug and kiss) them.

Panda, your persistent cry from the wilderness is often entertaining in your blog, but in this context, its bs. You know about one set of things that pertain to your own life experience, coping skills and personality. You don't give advice, which would be something along the lines of, "Well, in my experience, these might be some challenges you face." You're more like the guy who stands in the middle of Times Square with a sandwich board that reads: "REPENT, FOR THE END OF THE WORLD IS AT HAND!" Which is why it's hard to take you seriously sometimes.

Oops! Double post...

Agree with Nanon. Marriage is a commitment, and I won't break my vows for anything - neither will my husband. Those of us that are married and plan children plan to live our lives as we would in anything else difficult - living it. Life is never guaranteed to be easy, but what seems to be suggested here is those that are married and wanting children should stay out of medicine to avoid the risk. I guess that means marriage as an institution is vulnerable depending on the career you choose, and perhaps medicine is not a viable career for those who want marriage and children. I think that is ridiculous, especially considering the many people I know who are happily married with kids and are doctors.

Panda - I have liked many of your posts before (your screen name changing is hard to keep up with, though), but this one is a bit off-base. You can't stop your life and everything in it for a career. You have to integrate the career into your life and your life into the career. And again, marriage is a commitment. There's no way to describe how strong of a decision love is - not just a feeling.

glamqueen said:

Agree with Nanon. Marriage is a commitment, and I won't break my vows for anything - neither will my husband. Those of us that are married and plan children plan to live our lives as we would in anything else difficult - living it. Life is never guaranteed to be easy, but what seems to be suggested here is those that are married and wanting children should stay out of medicine to avoid the risk. I guess that means marriage as an institution is vulnerable depending on the career you choose, and perhaps medicine is not a viable career for those who want marriage and children. I think that is ridiculous, especially considering the many people I know who are happily married with kids and are doctors.

Panda - I have liked many of your posts before (your screen name changing is hard to keep up with, though), but this one is a bit off-base. You can't stop your life and everything in it for a career. You have to integrate the career into your life and your life into the career. And again, marriage is a commitment. There's no way to describe how strong of a decision love is - not just a feeling.

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And yet, people do get divorced, even people who were once in love and were committed. Things change. People change. Circumstances change. The husband who swears he doesn't mind taking care of the kids while you work on your career will begin to resent his situation. You'll come home full of yourself and focused on nothing but your suffering while he spent the day driving the kids around, wiping noses, changing diapers, and cleaning the house and he will grow tired of this as the years roll by.

Let me reiterate: I was just like all of you and if you had told me, three years ago that, after 17 years of marriage I would be on the brink of a divorce I would have laughed at you.

As for not breaking your vows, it won't be you that asks for the divorce.

glamqueen said:

...I guess that means marriage as an institution is vulnerable depending on the career you choose, and perhaps medicine is not a viable career for those who want marriage and children...

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Exactly. And many of the "happily married physicians" who you may know are on their second or third wife. I don't know the statistics on this but I believe it is usually the resident's wife who calls it quits, not as is popularly believed the resident who leaves his first wife for a "trophy" wife.

melanoleuca said:

Exactly. And many of the "happily married physicians" who you may know are on their second or third wife. I don't know the statistics on this but I believe it is usually the resident's wife who calls it quits, not as is popularly believed the resident who leaves his first wife for a "trophy" wife.

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It's a good thing I have a husband, then.

melanoleuca said:

Exactly. And many of the "happily married physicians" who you may know are on their second or third wife. I don't know the statistics on this but I believe it is usually the resident's wife who calls it quits, not as is popularly believed the resident who leaves his first wife for a "trophy" wife.

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Sources? Anecdotal information may be great at times, but with such venom in your posts, it feels as if it is opinion without fact to back it up.

It is unfortunate your marriage didn't work out. I believe the most recent stats are over 50% of marriages fail. That means that if I look at pure statistics, my marriage has a 1 in 2 chance of failing if I go to medical school.

I wonder what the stat would be if I didn't pursue the career path I truly desire?

JRock310 said:

for all of you who are actually in medical school and have children...

have you found that you have had enough time to be involved with your family AND accomplish what you need to in med school?

i am applying this summer and would be in the class of 2014. ive posted on here before (but just in case you aren't familiar w/ me), i have a 4.5 year old daughter. i am in a single parent program at my school, and my daughter and i came here when she was only 8 months old. i have been through college 100% with her as a single parent and know how hard it can be (but also how rewarding). i have managed to keep a balance between my family life and my school life, but of course there are times when it is harder to do so. i have the support of my family, and i am lucky that they have been there for me throughout everything. i do have a boyfriend i met here my freshman year (he graduated in '07), we will have been together 3 years this summer and will probably be engaged later this year. he will be moving w/ us wherever i get to school, so i will have his love and support through this, too. i guess my question is...im nervous that i will not have time to "be there" for my daughter and for him. it is really important to me to able to be actively involved in her life, and i just want to know if it is really possible to be able to do this while in medical school (or is it as ridiculously demanding as everyone says, and you wont have time for anyone else)...any insight at all would be extremely helpful. im not asking if it is going to be difficult (i know it will be), im just asking if it can be and has been done.

thank you!

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I believe in quality time versus quantity. As a social worker, I have been in many homes where someone is home all day, but there is no structure or quality activity taking place. I have seen other homes where parents are both working full time and make their children a priority when they are not at work through quality time.

As a single parent, you will need an extended support network, without a doubt.

And contrary to other posts, there are men who are comfortable being the stay at home parent. Let's get past 15th century stereotypes please!

Panda -

I'm really sorry to hear that your marriage is in such trouble. And I wish you guys luck and kindness in working through your issues.

I do have serious misgivings about embarking on this path, because I fear that my relationship with my husband and kids will suffer catastrophically. Pursuing medical school is a fundamentally selfish goal for me, as I currently have a flexible and lucrative (enough) career with plenty of free time to volunteer to help me.

Would you be willing to share techniques which worked and didn't work for keeping marriage healthy? We have some ideas ourselves, and we are currently doing preventative maintenance - spending a lot of time "dating" and talking. I appreciate your insights and those of other married-non-trads-with-kids who have already started this journey.

sindadel said:

Would you be willing to share techniques which worked and didn't work for keeping marriage healthy?

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For us, it was making the decision to study at home as much as possible in 1st and 2nd year of medical school. Also, I made the personal decision not to buy into this dog-eat-dog nonsense where students become miserable if they are not performing way above the class mean. If I passed, I didn't care. That kept a healthy home environment. Modestly-speaking, I did very well in medical school and on the USMLEs, and I interviewed at all the top programs in the country - even though my basic science grades were nothing special compared to some of my fiercely-competitive peers. I minimized my involvement with extracurricular activities - especially after 2nd year, and never hung out with my classmates. I would have liked to but, if I was not at school, I was with my family. I also cut down on the amount of time for working out (I was heavily into martial arts before). Medical school became my only justifiable hobby. During days off, we would go for picnics, or do whatever my wife wanted. I would get my daughter up and spend time with her to let my wife rest on days off. That helped. I constantly let me wife know that I appreciated her. In the end, medical school and residency are obvious pressures on a family, but you can make it work.

I personally thought that having a family was an advantage. I had a wonderful, enriching home to return to every day and, when we were occasionally treated harshly in the clinical years, I didn't care; my family defined who I was. Attitude is a choice. I felt sorry for some of my classmates who would go home crying or become suicidal just because someone was mean to them, or if they did not get the honors grade that they felt they deserved. To say medical school is easy would be misleading. Some people will tell you it's sheer hell, you study all the time, the boards are way harder than the MCAT etc. Not true. Others will tell you it's the most expensive vacation they've ever taken. Most people (if they are honest) simply find it somewhere in between.

Crelal said:

I believe in quality time versus quantity. As a social worker, I have been in many homes where someone is home all day, but there is no structure or quality activity taking place. I have seen other homes where parents are both working full time and make their children a priority when they are not at work through quality time.

As a single parent, you will need an extended support network, without a doubt.

And contrary to other posts, there are men who are comfortable being the stay at home parent. Let's get past 15th century stereotypes please!

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There are all kinds of men in the world but generally, men are not happy who are "stay at home parents" just like most women do not respect this kind of man. It's biological, stereotypical or not. Besides, a man who is a stay-at-home dad is likely to be professionally and socially isolated from other men except for other stay-at-home dads, who, as they are the kind who want to be stay-at-home dads may not be the kind your stay-at-home dad wants to hang out with.

Ignore the real differences between men and women at your peril.

Scottish Chap said:

For us, it was making the decision to study at home as much as possible in 1st and 2nd year of medical school. Also, I made the personal decision not to buy into this dog-eat-dog nonsense where students become miserable if they are not performing way above the class mean. If I passed, I didn't care. That kept a healthy home environment. Modestly-speaking, I did very well in medical school and on the USMLEs, and I interviewed at all the top programs in the country - even though my basic science grades were nothing special compared to some of my fiercely-competitive peers. I minimized my involvement with extracurricular activities - especially after 2nd year, and never hung out with my classmates. I would have liked to but, if I was not at school, I was with my family. I also cut down on the amount of time for working out (I was heavily into martial arts before). Medical school became my only justifiable hobby. During days off, we would go for picnics, or do whatever my wife wanted. I would get my daughter up and spend time with her to let my wife rest on days off. That helped. I constantly let me wife know that I appreciated her. In the end, medical school and residency are obvious pressures on a family, but you can make it work.

I personally thought that having a family was an advantage. I had a wonderful, enriching home to return to every day and, when we were occasionally treated harshly in the clinical years, I didn't care; my family defined who I was. Attitude is a choice. I felt sorry for some of my classmates who would go home crying or become suicidal just because someone was mean to them, or if they did not get the honors grade that they felt they deserved. To say medical school is easy would be misleading. Some people will tell you it's sheer hell, you study all the time, the boards are way harder than the MCAT etc. Not true. Others will tell you it's the most expensive vacation they've ever taken. Most people (if they are honest) simply find it somewhere in between.

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Residency is an order of magnitude more difficult than medical school. When you think about it, third and fourth year of medical school are only a poor approximation of residency. Sure, you have some difficult rotations but working like that is still a novelty to you and you have a lot of interesting things to talk about, not to mention the usual breaks and vacations. You really only have to suck things up for a month at a time as a medical student.

Residency, on the other hand, and especially intern year which is like your worst month of medical school doubled and then repeated for twelve months, is a slow grind during which (depending on specialty) you will be constantly sleep-deprived, tired, and annoyed.

Don't let your guard down and don't say, "It can't happen to me", because it can and it might.

Scottish Chap said:

For us, it was making the decision to study at home as much as possible in 1st and 2nd year of medical school. Also, I made the personal decision not to buy into this dog-eat-dog nonsense where students become miserable if they are not performing way above the class mean. If I passed, I didn't care. That kept a healthy home environment. Modestly-speaking, I did very well in medical school and on the USMLEs, and I interviewed at all the top programs in the country - even though my basic science grades were nothing special compared to some of my fiercely-competitive peers. I minimized my involvement with extracurricular activities - especially after 2nd year, and never hung out with my classmates. I would have liked to but, if I was not at school, I was with my family. I also cut down on the amount of time for working out (I was heavily into martial arts before). Medical school became my only justifiable hobby. During days off, we would go for picnics, or do whatever my wife wanted. I would get my daughter up and spend time with her to let my wife rest on days off. That helped. I constantly let me wife know that I appreciated her...

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Substitute "runnning" for "martial arts" and I might have written this exact paragraph four years ago.

melanoleuca said:

Residency is an order of magnitude more difficult than medical school. When you think about it, third and fourth year of medical school are only a poor approximation of residency. Sure, you have some difficult rotations but working like that is still a novelty to you and you have a lot of interesting things to talk about, not to mention the usual breaks and vacations. You really only have to suck things up for a month at a time as a medical student.

Residency, on the other hand, and especially intern year which is like your worst month of medical school doubled and then repeated for twelve months, is a slow grind during which (depending on specialty) you will be constantly sleep-deprived, tired, and annoyed.

Don't let your guard down and don't say, "It can't happen to me", because it can and it might.

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So you keep saying. BTW, I personally enjoy reading your blog when I have time. I worked on average 70 hours each week in my previous career. I did more than 100 hours on several occasions. It took more out of me than medical school, and the stress on my marriage was worse there. Why? I can't prove it, but it's maybe because it's not what I really wanted to do. Medical school brought no surprises to me. It was exactly what I expected it to be. It is what I want to do.

Again, medicine does not have exclusive real estate on long hours, low pay, and marital/family pressure - even though residency is obviously worse than medical school. We fully acknowledge that. There are college students who like to tell high school students: "you've no idea how much worse college is", there are medical students who like to gloat over college students with: "you've no idea how much harder medical school is" (bugs me...it's not true), and there will always be residents who say the same thing about medical school compared to residency training. It goes on and on. You get the point.

melanoleuca said:

Substitute "runnning" for "martial arts" and I might have written this exact paragraph four years ago.

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We are not the same person.

It's definitely a doable endeavor to have a family in medical school-- I would, however, think long and hard about making the leap as a single parent. It sounds like you have a good support system though-- that is a MUST if you have kids. Hopefully, your sig other will be in it for the long haul too, because your efforts and responsibilities will, at times, follow you home.

As far as time goes: there'll be less of it for hanging out and spontaneous activities, less time for yourself, less for your family and probably less overall study time too, since you'll have other responsibilities that your peers won't.

How much time you do have (at least during the first 2 years) will likely vary to some extent from program to program, but count on time at home diminishing considerably as exams and boards come around. If I can give you some advice though, make a schedule and stick to it as best as possible-- if that means getting home at five and not cracking a book open until your kid(s) are asleep, do it-- put your family first.

And, the truth is that a lot of families don't survive medical school-- it takes work (and you'll have plenty of that from your courses already). Med school isn't the 24/7 nightmare that many people think it is, but like so many things, it can consume you if you let it. If you want it, I'd encourage you to go for it-- just make sure your support is close by and in place, and put your family first.

I think Panda has me on ignore for historical reasons, but this is more for the rest of you reading this. Panda is but one resident with one perspective on medical school and residency. I work with surgical residents, and while they are uniformly not the happiest group of folks, many of them have managed to get through a really, really grueling program and keep their marriages and families intact. I've seen lots of different strategies, all of which include significant support from spouses and family. Lots of stay at home wives and husbands, and if not that, then nannies, extended family, friends... you get the picture. Most of them have encouraged me to go into medicine and think my family and I will be fine. The only one who is negative about it is a single mom with a less than ideal ex-husband. They even encourage me to go into surgery. (Ah... no. They work too hard, lol).

The point is that there are as many different perspectives on this as there are residents. Please don't let one person's negative attitude influence your future.

Nanon said:

I think Panda has me on ignore for historical reasons, but this is more for the rest of you reading this. Panda is but one resident with one perspective on medical school and residency. I work with surgical residents, and while they are uniformly not the happiest group of folks, many of them have managed to get through a really, really grueling program and keep their marriages and families intact. I've seen lots of different strategies, all of which include significant support from spouses and family. Lots of stay at home wives and husbands, and if not that, then nannies, extended family, friends... you get the picture. Most of them have encouraged me to go into medicine and think my family and I will be fine. The only one who is negative about it is a single mom with a less than ideal ex-husband. They even encourage me to go into surgery. (Ah... no. They work too hard, lol).

The point is that there are as many different perspectives on this as there are residents. Please don't let one person's negative attitude influence your future.

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I am still a mere mortal : ) But legacy students are common at any school, and a lot of them have divorced parents. There are two common threads in these divorce stories: 1) clueless men and 2) 2 doctors, one house. It's an old, old story, but to be fair, Panda, the military has about the same track record on marriage, so you've had a double helping.

Divorce can happen w/ or w/o medical school. I think the age of the child(ren) matters to some extent (it would be hard for me to be a resident w/ a 14 year old, wondering if she was sneaking out while I was out, and not being able to look over her shoulder and make sure she wasn't screwing up her life). And it depends a LOT on the maturity and independence of the sig other, and their expectations, as well as your ability to handle large volumes of stress, and not take it out on them.

This is something to talk about seriously w/ the guy. Make him read Panda's blog. Paint your very worst case scenario for him.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are lots of great ways to get into health care without adding the MD to your coat.....I don't run around smushing people's dreams, but really, there a lot of people running around the hospital doing cool stuff, and it behooves you to be sure before you jump.

My DH and I are less than a year in -for myself, the biggest prob has been we see each other less, b/c he adjusted his schedule to be available for our son when I can't be home, and not having any $$$. Living on loans sucks.

-

atomi said:

That's one of the problems with this message board. You all accept and demand nothing but blind support. Critics be damned without regard to relevance. 50 year old wants to leave career xyz and go to medical school??!! Great!! You can do it! Got to take $300,000 in loans to do it?? Don't worry - your pension probably would have been gone anyway! It will all be ok!! You're not in it alone!!!

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Word. I have applied to medical school, matriculated, graduated, gone through the match twice, been continuously sleep-deprived, exhausted, and annoyed for months at a time, pulled 200 nights of call, several times while so physically ill that I had to get a liter of IV fluid so I could keep going, passed all my board exams, negotiated and signed a contract for my first real job, neglected my family, sweated, bled, seen 15,000 patients, and have 82 days left of this eight-year ordeal that started so long ago that my previous life, one where I got most weekends off at never had to stay overnight at work, is nothing but a vague, amusing memory and for my trouble in telling you what lies ahead I get a, "Oh, we don't want to hear the truth."

This is the one forum on SDN where you'd expect all the participants to be a little more willing to consider the consequences of their actions.

montessori2md said:

I am still a mere mortal : ) But legacy students are common at any school, and a lot of them have divorced parents. There are two common threads in these divorce stories: 1) clueless men and 2) 2 doctors, one house. It's an old, old story, but to be fair, Panda, the military has about the same track record on marriage, so you've had a double helping.

Divorce can happen w/ or w/o medical school. I think the age of the child(ren) matters to some extent (it would be hard for me to be a resident w/ a 14 year old, wondering if she was sneaking out while I was out, and not being able to look over her shoulder and make sure she wasn't screwing up her life). And it depends a LOT on the maturity and independence of the sig other, and their expectations, as well as your ability to handle large volumes of stress, and not take it out on them.

This is something to talk about seriously w/ the guy. Make him read Panda's blog. Paint your very worst case scenario for him.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are lots of great ways to get into health care without adding the MD to your coat.....I don't run around smushing people's dreams, but really, there a lot of people running around the hospital doing cool stuff, and it behooves you to be sure before you jump.

My DH and I are less than a year in -for myself, the biggest prob has been we see each other less, b/c he adjusted his schedule to be available for our son when I can't be home, and not having any $$$. Living on loans sucks.

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I was not married when I was in the Marines.

Also, you are less than a year into it. Imagine those surgery residents, for example, who won't be done until they are nine years or more into it. It is unfortunately, at least for your relationships, a hill that gets steeper the longer you climb it and you can't just say, "Whew, I've done a year...thank God the hard part is over."

Nanon said:

I think Panda has me on ignore for historical reasons, but this is more for the rest of you reading this. Panda is but one resident with one perspective on medical school and residency. I work with surgical residents, and while they are uniformly not the happiest group of folks, many of them have managed to get through a really, really grueling program and keep their marriages and families intact. I've seen lots of different strategies, all of which include significant support from spouses and family. Lots of stay at home wives and husbands, and if not that, then nannies, extended family, friends... you get the picture. Most of them have encouraged me to go into medicine and think my family and I will be fine. The only one who is negative about it is a single mom with a less than ideal ex-husband. They even encourage me to go into surgery. (Ah... no. They work too hard, lol).

The point is that there are as many different perspectives on this as there are residents. Please don't let one person's negative attitude influence your future.

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I'm not ignoring you. I just think that, respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.

melanoleuca said:

I'm not ignoring you. I just think that, respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.

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Cool.

This is intended for melanoleuca.

This is my first post and I just have one question. Knowing what you know now and the experiences you have had: the exhaustion, tireless work-load, family sufferings, etc. was it worth it? Would you do it all over again? What would you change?

Sorry...that was three questions.

poppy25 said:

This is intended for melanoleuca.

This is my first post and I just have one question. Knowing what you know now and the experiences you have had: the exhaustion, tireless work-load, family sufferings, etc. was it worth it? Would you do it all over again? What would you change?

Sorry...that was three questions.

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No.
No.
Thrown my medical school application in the trash.

melanoleuca said:

With respect, you have no idea what you are getting into in regard to life style. First and second year of medical school will be fine for you but somewhere in third year you are going to say, "Yikes, at least when I was an engineer I had time to eat lunch and take a pee."

I was an engineer, by the way. You need to read my blog:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/

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Great blog. I was only going to take a quick peek and got sucked into two or three of your posts.