Parent income level and med school admission rate.. Pretty shocking..

Started by bluecabinet
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bluecabinet

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American dream is no more... source straight from the AAMC

Almost 60% of people who gained admission for med school have parents' earning of $100,000 or more...that's huge considering the average income for parents is around $50,000 to $60,000 in the US...
 

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bluecabinet said:
American dream is no more... source straight from the AAMC

Almost 60% of people who gained admission for med school have parent's earning of $100,000 or more...that's huge considering average income for parents is around $50,000 to $60,000 in the US...
Click to expand...

You must mean "parent income level", I was confused there for a second.
 
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It's a sad reality in America. The effects of income inequality in this country are broad and far-reaching. Perhaps the most unfortunate is income's impact on educational attainment--the primary vehicle for social mobility.
 
I don't see why that doesn't make sense to be honest. People who make >100k/year are also a lot more likely to be naturally smarter (in different ways) and naturally more hard working (in again different ways) than those who make 50k/year. These people are also more likely to have smarter/hard working kids (combination of genetics and environmental factors such as raising the child). As a result those getting into med. have such parents.

On the other hand a lot of people (unfortunately) who make average incomes (by national standard), were those who barely pulled 50s in high school and smoked weed all day, then took up a construction job and left it at that. Yes unfortunate reality. These people are not as likely to have smart kids.

And as shown by those numbers, this holds true 60%/40% of the time, so a fair majority.
 
How does having a great work ethic ensure that you will make good money? And how does having higher income mean that you're smarter? Being smart or having a good work ethic might make making good money seem more likely, but no, there are too many factors to say that as a sure statement.

You know what's also shocking is how limited the reasoning and exposure these responses are. And no, retake genetics...

It's a mindset along with a limit of opportunities especially regarding education. Coming from a lower income family probably means more work just to make ends meet with less time for extracurriculars and hobbies. Less exposure to different fields won't let doors open for these lower income bracket people since they don't even have an incentive or even know that there are doors out there.

I don't think the media gives good exposure to fields outside the entertainment industry whether it's music, sports, or movies. So aspiring dreams are most of the time limited to 'becoming a movie star or professional basketball player' rather than a CEO of a successful start-up company or a doctor...
 
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druggeek said:
I don't see why that doesn't make sense to be honest. People who make >100k/year are also a lot more likely to be naturally smarter (in different ways) and naturally more hard working (in again different ways) than those who make 50k/year. These people are also more likely to have smarter/hard working kids (combination of genetics and environmental factors such as raising the child). As a result those getting into med. have such parents.

On the other hand a lot of people (unfortunately) who make average incomes (by national standard), were those who barely pulled 50s in high school and smoked weed all day, then took up a construction job and left it at that. Yes unfortunate reality. These people are not as likely to have smart kids.

And as shown by those numbers, this holds true 60%/40% of the time, so a fair majority.
Click to expand...

Though I may agree that the work ethic of the parents may have something to do with this, you are beyond stupid to make the above unfortunate statement. How does your logic even make sense?
 
theMan2012 said:
Though I may agree that the work ethic of the parents may have something to do with this, you are beyond stupid to make the above unfortunate statement.
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Agreed...just because you are poor...doesn't mean you are dumb and lazy...

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have basic necessities like emotional support system, financial support system, ect...

If you think life is THAT simple......you got ways to go...🙄


Back to the point...I won't say this is "the" evidence of increase in social inequality in America...but I'd say this represents a paradigm shift of near future...

You can still work hard and get rich in America...but it doesn't seem it is as likely as it was before...sad indeed.
 
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druggeek said:
I don't see why that doesn't make sense to be honest. People who make >100k/year are also a lot more likely to be naturally smarter (in different ways) and naturally more hard working (in again different ways) than those who make 50k/year. These people are also more likely to have smarter/hard working kids (combination of genetics and environmental factors such as raising the child). As a result those getting into med. have such parents.

On the other hand a lot of people (unfortunately) who make average incomes (by national standard), were those who barely pulled 50s in high school and smoked weed all day, then took up a construction job and left it at that. Yes unfortunate reality. These people are not as likely to have smart kids.

And as shown by those numbers, this holds true 60%/40% of the time, so a fair majority.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should help these not-so-smart kids by having them clean toilets?
 
The prospect of medical school is a lot more appealing when your parents can help you with loans. That's a big part of it. Some of these other posts really make me lol.
 
you're telling me
theMan2012 said:
Though I may agree that the work ethic of the parents may have something to do with this, you are beyond stupid to make the above unfortunate statement. How does your logic even make sense?
Click to expand...
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
 
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druggeek said:
you're telling me
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
Click to expand...

This is now officially the most hilarious thread on sdn.
 
Danlee07 said:
I don't think the media gives good exposure to fields outside the entertainment industry whether it's music, sports, or movies. So aspiring dreams are most of the time limited to 'becoming a movie star or professional basketball player' rather than a CEO of a successful start-up company or a doctor...
Click to expand...

:laugh: Let's blame the media.
 
theMan2012 said:
Though I may agree that the work ethic of the parents may have something to do with this, you are beyond stupid to make the above unfortunate statement. How does your logic even make sense?
Click to expand...

I don't really feel like digging this up, but I remember reading something a while ago citing that children in impoverished neighborhoods learned only a FRACTON of the spoken words learned by more affluent children before the age of 5 - or something to that effect. Does this mean that all poor people are bad? No. But upper middle-class parents definitely have access to the both the resources to provide a more enriching environment for their children, and I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed harder for their children to excel scholastically. Its a cultural thing, and it doesn't have anything to do with race.

It might not be fair to always equate income with intelligence, but you can't attribute all cases of poverty to bad luck.

How is this data at all shocking? Mostly upper-middle class kids pursuing an upper-middle class. I didn't see that one coming at all.
 
In my opinion, I think a large part of this is what resources a child can draw on. Someone who grows up well off has access to tutors and has the money to spend on ECs, travel, etc. that broaden a child's horizon. I can say growing up poor myself, I did not have these resources. But I can also say it has nothing to do with my Mom's IQ or work ethic. In fact, she was doing an excellent job working up corp. leaders before a drunk driver took it away...
 
druggeek said:
you're telling me
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
Click to expand...

wow I am lost for words. I can't believe you actually think half of what your saying is even true...
 
theMan2012 said:
wow I am lost for words. I can't believe you actually think half of what your saying is even true...
Click to expand...

Keep living in your dream fantasy world where anyone can do anything they want because we are all innately equal in every sense. 🙂🙂🙂:luck::luck:



:laugh:
 
druggeek said:
Keep living in your dream fantasy world where anyone can do anything they want because we are all innately equal in every sense. 🙂🙂🙂:luck::luck:



:laugh:
Click to expand...

I thought this fantasy world was the reason we all want/plan on/are going to med school.
 
druggeek said:
you're telling me
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
Click to expand...

druggeek said:
Keep living in your dream fantasy world where anyone can do anything they want because we are all innately equal in every sense. 🙂🙂🙂:luck::luck:



:laugh:
Click to expand...


You're an idiot and an example of why I have very little hope for humanity.
 
Narmerguy said:
It's a sad reality in America. The effects of income inequality in this country are broad and far-reaching. Perhaps the most unfortunate is income's impact on educational attainment--the primary vehicle for social mobility.
Click to expand...

I've seen this first hand in various situations...

i) Medicine - come from a family of doctors... makes it easier to get residency in interventional radiology, when daddy or mommy is an interventional radiologist

ii) Law - come from a family of lawyers... makes it easier to become a partner at a ridiculously awesome law firm, when daddy or mommy are partner at that law firm.
 
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druggeek said:
I don't see why that doesn't make sense to be honest. People who make >100k/year are also a lot more likely to be naturally smarter (in different ways) and naturally more hard working (in again different ways) than those who make 50k/year. These people are also more likely to have smarter/hard working kids (combination of genetics and environmental factors such as raising the child). As a result those getting into med. have such parents.

On the other hand a lot of people (unfortunately) who make average incomes (by national standard), were those who barely pulled 50s in high school and smoked weed all day, then took up a construction job and left it at that. Yes unfortunate reality. These people are not as likely to have smart kids.
Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by "naturally"? Most people won't consider the fact that one is born into a rich family to be exactly, um, "natural." Also, please don't confuse wealth as a sign of virtue.

And, wow. I hope to never meet you.
 
druggeek said:
you're telling me
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
Click to expand...


Please don't ever become a doctor. if you ever get your MD, don't practice medicine. if you're already a doctor, the admissions process needs to be changed. It's not like you're the only person who thinks this way because many have similar views...it's that you lack the decency to be mindful of what you say/write...and you are so blatantly ignorant. I shudder.

I would normally ignore an ignorant comment like this one but I took it personally...
 
Yeah, my parent's are blue-collar and neither went to college. I have 5 brothers and sisters and I am the only one attending college thanks to the Army. Goals in life don't come until you are stable enough to imagine them. Once I finally had a little money in the bank, I began to feel secure enough to dream. All I wanted was to be earn a degree. In a large family, I would be the first and only one with a degree. Now, I am dreaming about medical school.
 
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Coming from a lower income family myself, I think a lot of that statistic has to do with having the financial resources to apply to med school. I get stressed out thinking about what will happen if I don't get in the first cycle and have to apply again since applying to med school costs so much due to flying out for interviews and other fees that FAP does not cover. I feel like a lot of people from lower income families would be discouraged to apply because they feel like it will be a large financial burden on their family if they don't get in, so they probably opt for something where the application process doesn't cost a mint. Sure the applicant can get a part time job, but if you are struggling to begin with (buying necessities), I still don't think it would be very feasible for a poorer applicant to pay for everything on their own without parents help or loans/credit cards.
 
druggeek said:
you're telling me
Well considering the intelligence of someone is determined by nature and nurture (genetics and upbringing), I'm going to say it's safe to say that people born with highly intelligent parents who raise them perfectly are more LIKELY to have smart kids than parents who are of average intelligence and raise them carelessly. If you don't agree, you should first look up the word "likely" and in the OP it showed a 60/40 split...

I know people that have lived a "ghetto" lifestyle (not in poverty, but basically small house/relatively low income) and schools in those areas have more dumb kids than anywhere else. Just a fact. I mean when you're having your 5th kid with a 3rd boyfriend, do you really think your kids (as a mother) are going to turn out smart especially when they have crappy nutrition, stay out drinking all night twice a week at the age of 14 while doing other drugs, don't care at all about school, etc etc.

^ That's a very common lifestyle in lower income areas (and I'm not even talking about those in poverty or full out crackheads).
Click to expand...

Why is everyone hating on this post?

The guy is an ass for saying all that crap about being naturally more intelligent or hard working but I think he has a point here.

When the parents struggle to make ends meet, education is like the last thing on their mind. When the parents don't care, the kids don't realize its importance until it is too late.
 
FattySlug said:
Why is everyone hating on this post?

The guy is an ass for saying all that crap about being naturally more intelligent or hard working but I think he has a point here.

When the parents struggle to make ends meet, education is like the last thing on their mind. When the parents don't care, the kids don't realize its importance until it is too late.
Click to expand...

That's a generalization. There is a massive difference between struggling to make ends meet and not caring about education.
 
Some of the posts on this thread are incredibly disappointing.

It is ignorant to make comments stating that those who come from poor backgrounds are simply going to have a lower IQ and that is why not many from low socioeconomic backgrounds are in medical school. The statistics shown in the OP are more likely the result of sociological factors; nobody can deny, for example, that the kid who came from a poor background is going to have less resources than the one born to the upper middle class.

That said, I come from a poor background. I am at college due to generous grant money and various loans. It has not, however, been an easy road. And my parents are certainly not incapable.
 
FattySlug said:
Why is everyone hating on this post?

The guy is an ass for saying all that crap about being naturally more intelligent or hard working but I think he has a point here.

When the parents struggle to make ends meet, education is like the last thing on their mind. When the parents don't care, the kids don't realize its importance until it is too late.
Click to expand...
Exactly this. Aside from the abrasive assumptions he is making, the trends he is commenting on are evident. Yes, there are exceptions on each side, which is why there is a 60% correlation, not 100%, in the OP.
 
rubisco88 said:
Coming from a lower income family myself, I think a lot of that statistic has to do with having the financial resources to apply to med school. I get stressed out thinking about what will happen if I don't get in the first cycle and have to apply again since applying to med school costs so much due to flying out for interviews and other fees that FAP does not cover. I feel like a lot of people from lower income families would be discouraged to apply because they feel like it will be a large financial burden on their family if they don't get in, so they probably opt for something where the application process doesn't cost a mint. Sure the applicant can get a part time job, but if you are struggling to begin with (buying necessities), I still don't think it would be very feasible for a poorer applicant to pay for everything on their own without parents help or loans/credit cards.
Click to expand...

Same for me, FAP covered the secondaries but I've maxed out my credits cards paying for flights, hotels and food for interviews. I'm just thankful I have an acceptance so I won't have to do this all over again next year
 
Corte said:
That's a generalization. There is a massive difference between struggling to make ends meet and not caring about education.
Click to expand...
Hence the 60% / 40% split. Clearly lots of people who dont make excellent money still make it, but not as many as people making a lot.
 
Starlightembers said:
Some of the posts on this thread are incredibly disappointing.

It is ignorant to make comments stating that those who come from poor backgrounds are simply going to have a lower IQ and that is why not many from low socioeconomic backgrounds are in medical school. The statistics shown in the OP are more likely the result of sociological factors; nobody can deny, for example, that the kid who came from a poor background is going to have less resources than the one born to the upper middle class.

That said, I come from a poor background. I am at college due to generous grant money and various loans. It has not, however, been an easy road. And my parents are certainly not incapable.
Click to expand...
its a combination of several factors
 
I did some research due to this debate and became pretty shocked at what I came across. From wiki (citied within):

"Estimates in the academic research of the heritability of IQ have varied from below 0.5[2] to a high of 0.9.[5] A 1996 statement by the American Psychological Association gave about .45 for children and about .75 during and after adolescence.[6] A 2004 meta-analysis of reports in Current Directions in Psychological Science gave an overall estimate of around .85 for 18-year-olds and older.[7] The New York Times Magazine has listed about three quarters as a figure held by the majority of studies.[8]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

A proportion of 1 would mean ALL variation seen in the trait is genetic, so the high rates seen here are pretty startling especially with all the "work ethic, nurture over nature, etc" statements we're always told about education. I've worked with low-income kids and some honestly have tremendous difficulty with problem solving and just can't seem to put 2 and 2 together even when given all the nudges possible.
 
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TriagePreMed said:
This has to be the most uninformed post I have seen in my life. Neither naturally smart nor hard working are true. All studies in sociology point to environmental reasons. Believe it or not, some people are smart AND are unsuccessful in life. Try watching the video on this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggur-Ca2nzs
Click to expand...

Can you point me to some of these studies? Because, everything I've seen says IQ is highly genetically inherited and thus having intelligent parents directly increases your chances of getting into med school (there is definitely an IQ and Mcat score correlation).
 
SchroedingrsCat said:
I did some research due to this debate and became pretty shocked at what I came across. From wiki (citied within):

"Estimates in the academic research of the heritability of IQ have varied from below 0.5[2] to a high of 0.9.[5] A 1996 statement by the American Psychological Association gave about .45 for children and about .75 during and after adolescence.[6] A 2004 meta-analysis of reports in Current Directions in Psychological Science gave an overall estimate of around .85 for 18-year-olds and older.[7] The New York Times Magazine has listed about three quarters as a figure held by the majority of studies.[8]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

A proportion of 1 would mean ALL variation seen in the trait is genetic, so the high rates seen here are pretty startling especially with all the "work ethic, nurture over nature, etc" statements we're always told about education. I've worked with low-income kids and some honestly have tremendous difficulty with problem solving and just can't seem to put 2 and 2 together even when given all the nudges possible.
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Because we're in north america... here everyone's told they can achieve anything if they work hard enough n then you wonder why our suicide rates are so high compared to africa....
But everyone here likes to preach that its all about hard work, etc. when really after my several years of high level athletic competition + school, the most succesful people were always the most talented (or very close to being).
 
Makes sense really. I mean I know if I didn't have help from my parents, I wouldn't have been able to apply to as many schools and interview at all the schools I went to... I mean I have credit cards (that I use to build credit) but I guess in some ways, I probably wouldn't have good credit without my parent's good financial standing.
It's really unfair, I think that for people who don't have the financial support to interview there should be some type of virtual tour/ web interview alternative.

And yeah, some of it has to deal with upbringing. My mom and dad are both in the healthcare field so I've always been around medically related things, so becoming a doctor was pretty much written for me. Kids tend to take after their parents.
 
This shouldn't really surprise anyone. The advantages of wealth are abundant, everything from better resources, less stress about finances which might lead to more time to do succeed academically, more opportunities for those "super" ECs that are so highly prized, among others. The AAMC and institutions attempt to address this via fee waivers, but the entire process and basis of admissions decisions gives preference to the wealthy.
 
druggeek said:
Hence the 60% / 40% split. Clearly lots of people who dont make excellent money still make it, but not as many as people making a lot.
Click to expand...

I don't know, maybe it was your earlier reference to a "ghetto lifestyle" that just made me snap. I'm not saying the split isn't accurate.


NickNaylor said:
This shouldn't really surprise anyone. The advantages of wealth are abundant, everything from better resources, less stress about finances which might lead to more time to do succeed academically, more opportunities for those "super" ECs that are so highly prized, among others. The AAMC and institutions attempt to address this via fee waivers, but the entire process and basis of admissions decisions gives preference to the wealthy.
Click to expand...

^ This.

Of course the split is going to favor those who come from financially stable families. I bet if someone charted a large amount of med school applicants - or even undergrad students who plan to go down that path - the majority wouldn't come from poor families. Naturally when money is not a setback applying for any type of post bacc program/aiming for a job that will eventually pay six figures+ would be more accessible.

The only thing I disagree with is the clear assumption that money equates wealth.
 
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