AACOM's Report on Survey of Osteopathic Medical Students’ Views on Unified GME Accreditation

[OCDEMS]

http://www.aacom.org/news/latest/Documents/GME-merger-survey-report_3-25-14.pdf


Report on Survey of Osteopathic Medical Students’ Views on Unified GME Accreditation. Discuss.

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[NurWollen]

I wish I could see which COMs were which in the breakdown by school.

 

[hallowmann]

Overwhelming support for the merger with <6% opposing or strongly opposing it. Seems pretty clear what most students think. I wonder what a similar survey given to current residents and another given to current physicians would show.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Now survey doing only one set of boards.

 

[GUH]

Students who want to specialize had higher rates of support for the merger... they're in for a nasty surprise when it comes time to match!

 

[Siggy]

22% response rate? Stopped reading there.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Students who want to specialize had higher rates of support for the merger... they're in for a nasty surprise when it comes time to match!

Fine by me. Personally, I have zero interest in an AOA residency. Students that want to complete fellowships realize that the merger needed to happen.

 

[GUH]

Fine by me. Personally, I have zero interest in an AOA residency. Students that want to complete fellowships realize that the merger needed to happen.

I'm happy for you.

 

[DopaDO]

Students who want to specialize had higher rates of support for the merger... they're in for a nasty surprise when it comes time to match!

This is a ridiculous line of thinking. I'm a 3rd year student who is looking to specialize and am only applying to ACGME residencies. I've worked hard to make my application as strong as possible. If you want to specialize, you should be a good applicant - not just get lucky bc of an away at an AOA.

You are going to be competing with others your whole life, I don't understand what is wrong with a little competition for AOA residencies. It makes everyone better.

 

[NontradCA]

22% response rate? Stopped reading there.

That's high?

 

[scummie]

That's high?

Whether 22% is is a particularly high response rate depends on the context. I don't remember getting any e-mails asking to take a survey about this. I think # of students taking the survey will add some more information. How likely is it that they sampled the only portion of the population that overwhelmingly supports the merger and completely missed the other 88% of their sample population that is gung-ho AOA?

 

[NontradCA]

Whether 22% is is a particularly high response rate depends on the context. I don't remember getting any e-mails asking to take a survey about this. I think # of students taking the survey will add some more information. How likely is it that they sampled the only portion of the population that overwhelmingly supports the merger and completely missed the other 88% of their sample population that is gung-ho AOA?

You mean 78%? I think very unlikely.

 

[scummie]

You mean 78%? I think very unlikely.

My bad, haven't had my morning coffee yet.

 

[NontradCA]

My bad, haven't had my morning coffee yet.

Good idea, gonna go brew some. Cheers

 

[GUH]

You are going to be competing with others your whole life, I don't understand what is wrong with a little competition for AOA residencies. It makes everyone better.

Yeah try telling that to ACGME PD's who categorically deny DO's regardless of their qualifications.

 

[DocEspana]

Whether 22% is is a particularly high response rate depends on the context. I don't remember getting any e-mails asking to take a survey about this. I think # of students taking the survey will add some more information. How likely is it that they sampled the only portion of the population that overwhelmingly supports the merger and completely missed the other 88% of their sample population that is gung-ho AOA?

EDIT: I read the data wrong.

Juding from the responses they emailed the poll to every single medical student OMS I-IV. Most people just dont respond. 22% is AMAZING response. I got work published where I polled every medical student (MD or DO) in New York State and got a 8.9% response rate and it was considered hugely powerful on statistical analysis and everyone I presented it to was shocked I was able to get such a robust response. A national survey done by the AMA of MD medical students that had a 7% response rate is the basis of a lot of their student policy.

I know some people will zone out at 22%, but they are wrong to do so. (no this is not up for debate. This is statistics.) The diversity of response between schools and years is suggestive of them polling every student and 22% is INSANELY good response rate. Its sad to say, but this is about as powerful of a study as you can get.

 

[scummie]

EDIT: I read the data wrong.

Juding from the responses they emailed the poll to every single medical student OMS I-IV. Most people just dont respond. 22% is AMAZING response. I got work published where I polled every medical student (MD or DO) in New York State and got a 8.9% response rate and it was considered hugely powerful on statistical analysis and everyone I presented it to was shocked I was able to get such a robust response. A national survey done by the AMA of MD medical students that had a 7% response rate is the basis of a lot of their student policy.

I know some people will zone out at 22%, but they are wrong to do so. (no this is not up for debate. This is statistics.) The diversity of response between schools and years is suggestive of them polling every student and 22% is INSANELY good response rate. Its sad to say, but this is about as powerful of a study as you can get.

Thanks for saying this. I've also done research studies where the highest response rate was ~25% and as low as ~8%. Unless you really sharply define your sample size, it is quite difficult to get a response rate much higher than that.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

Students who want to specialize had higher rates of support for the merger... they're in for a nasty surprise when it comes time to match!

Agree. The weaker DO programs will close. The stronger ones are already preparing for ACGME inspection. PDs at these programs want this merger because then they' ll attract "stronger" candidates and "boost" their programs. The locations of these programs are very attractive; so attractive that graduates from top residency/ fellowship programs end up working there. Prior to the proposed merger, some of these PDs got inquiries from AMGs about their programs. The PDs had to tell them that they can accept DOs only. With the merger everything is open game. For example, in NYC the kids from NYCOM and Touro will now compete with the kids from Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Sinai and Einstein for ALL residency spots. Not a very good feeling since in a few years: # of med school grads >> # residency spots

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

Yeah try telling that to ACGME PD's who categorically deny DO's regardless of their qualifications.

Not only the ACGME PDs... the PDs at the stronger AOA residencies are having wet dreams about getting grads from elite medical colleges.

 

[DocEspana]

Agree. The weaker DO programs will close. The stronger ones are already preparing for ACGME inspection. PDs at these programs want this merger because then they' ll attract "stronger" candidates and "boost" their programs. The locations of these programs are very attractive; so attractive that graduates from top residency/ fellowship programs end up working there. Prior to the proposed merger, some of these PDs got inquiries from AMGs about their programs. The PDs had to tell them that they can accept DOs only. With the merger everything is open game. For example, in NYC the kids from NYCOM and Touro will now compete with the kids from Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Sinai and Einstein for ALL residency spots. Not a very good feeling since in a few years: # of med school grads >> # residency spots

To be fair... most people will be shocked to discover that a crapton of columbia, cornell, nyu, sinai, einstein (lets include Downstate and WMC too) students do not want to be in NYC for training. New York (especially the city) is a horrid place to practice. I think its the 49th lowest paying state for attendings and the 1st highest for malpractice cost. This is known by pretty much everyone in NYC schools. We (NYC students) tend to flock away from the area for residency. Obviously proximity means that many do not, but you would be surprised how many do not want to stay near NY at all. Especially for the MD schools (a bit more common to stay in this area for DO graduates).

Add in that I seriously doubt Touro or NYIT students are taking any spots from those schools, it wont make a huge differene in NY. IIRC there is no AOA residency in Manhattan or Staten Island at all, and very minimal in Queens and The Bronx. Brooklyn and Long Island has plenty, but you're not exactly going to be actively pulling people who dont want to stay in NY to locations that don't have the NYC appeal/pedigree (Long Island). Your point, in general, is correct. You just chose a specific example that doesnt work as well as it might seem.

This is being said by someone who wants to stay in NYC, and will stay in NYC, and has an ACGME spot in manhattan. So I can rip on how everyone wants to leave NYC all I want... clearly I didnt want to leave it that much.

 

[DocEspana]

Not only the ACGME PDs... the PDs at the stronger AOA residencies are having wet dreams about getting grads from elite medical colleges.

Yup. Before any of this happened, PDs at strong AOA programs talked about this merger potentially ever happening the way I would talk about a steak dinner.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Not only the ACGME PDs... the PDs at the stronger AOA residencies are having wet dreams about getting grads from elite medical colleges.

I don't think that's the case, at least in Ortho. Our PD told us that a majority of AOA PDs are against the merger due to some extreme requirements by AAOS and ACGME . One of which was keeping certain number of core faculty members, and that PD spend at least 40 percent of his time in administrative work and rest of the faculty at least 20 percent. There's hardly any program in the DO world that is even coming close to that right now.