Dexmedetomidine

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Garryowen
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Oh wise ones, I come to you for the skinny.

Our drug rep is really pushing us to try this great new wonder drug DexDomitor (dexmedetomidine) but since it is so new to us on the four legged patient side, no one knows how great or crappy it is...so I figured hey, you guys probably have had it available to you longer than we have and maybe you're bored and would respond to a vet type question

1) how much do you use? a lot, or on the occasional random patient?
2) do you like it? hate it? why?
3) is it really that much better than detomedine or medetomidine? (do you guys even have those?)
4) any problems with it or things you don't like about it? (example, medetomidine can cause a reflex bradyc. in dogs and cats-makes some people nervous, others could care less-it resolves on its own and all other vitals usually remain excellent)
5) anything I forgot to ask or pearls you can add?

mucho thanks 🙂 If this really is the next best thing in anaesthesia then we're willing to try it out, but if it does the exact same thing at eighty times the cost of something we already have...then I don't really think I want it on my cart.

edit: I tried searching your archives but I don't think I'm using the right string cause I wasn't finding much other than case reports where the OP would mention it as one of the drugs used

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I can't imagine it would be useful in veterinary practice. First off, it is not an anesthetic by itself (you need to use something else too). Second, it has to be given by continuous infusion. Finally, and maybe most importantly, you guys have plenty of alpha agonists (we don't-- its really the only alpha agonist used as an anesthetic) already available that work great and are even reversible. I'm surprised they're even marketing it to you.. That said, its a great drug for sedation, or as an adjunct agent in human anesthetic practice. On a side note, I think its still only FDA approved for ICU sedation, not OR use, but that's another story.
 
It really is only useful as a bridge to extubation by allowing you to wean off other agents while providing sedation without decreased ventilation. Its other main use is to allow for sedation and the coexistence of a meaningful mental status exam.

Other uses for precedex in medicine: awake FOI (allow for adequate Spont Vent with some anxiolysis). Titration during cases where respiratory function may be comprimized to allow for a more comfortable extubation without much narcotic on board. Sternotomies/thoracotamies without epidurals/gastric bypass.

I have no idea how important those two things are to your profession.

Precedex will NOT provide anesthesia/amnesia at currently recommended doses (on the label) in HUMANS. Maybe they let you crank that juice through the roof in animals. At high levels (5-10x the max allowed dose) there is some evidence that dexmetatomidate can provide more meaningful/clinically relevant aspects of anesthesia.

Another problem is the $$$$$.

Worst problem I have found is that it SMOKES your blood pressure (especially if hypovolemic). In people with shakey CV systems now you don't know if its the dex or something else. Can be a pain in the a$$.

There ya go.
Vent
 
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Actually, I used this a lot last month as a "pad" on my neuro cases (thanks to UTSouthwestern who indirectly motivated/encouraged me to give it a second try before I made up my mind). I don't know if it was terribly helpful as an adjunct, put in one particular patient (I realize n=1 here) who had a 6+ hour coiling woke-up and was talking about 5 minutes after the case was over. We used it because of neuromonitoring. It was a pure TIVA.

The formula? Remi @ 0.1-0.3 mcg/kg/min + propofol @ 50-100 mcg/kg/min + dex @ 0.3 mcg/kg/hr = a patient who didn't move, woke up with a smooth extubation, didn't remember anything, and got a "nice anesthetic" compliment from the neurosurgeon when the case was done.

-copro
 
I can't imagine it would be useful in veterinary practice. First off, it is not an anesthetic by itself (you need to use something else too).
Yeah, I (can't speak for everyone) rarely use medetomidine by it self, even when just heavy sedating for something like radiology I usually combine it with an opiod

Second, it has to be given by continuous infusion.
That's not really a problem-its really common (at least in our specialty) to have CRIs going in addition to the gas, or to have pts on say an MLK CRI (can't really put a dog or cat on a PCA lol) post op.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, you guys have plenty of alpha agonists (we don't-- its really the only alpha agonist used as an anesthetic) already available that work great and are even reversible. I'm surprised they're even marketing it to you..
True-that is one of my main concerns-it seems with my limited research that it's kind of like reinventing the wheel-we have Xylazine, Detomedine, Medetomedine..etc etc
That said, its a great drug for sedation, or as an adjunct agent in human anesthetic practice. On a side note, I think its still only FDA approved for ICU sedation, not OR use, but that's another story.
Thanks-this is exactly what I was looking for-the down and dirty from someone who already uses it! It is not uncommon for us to need sedation post op on anxious patients, or severe traumas/fxs pre-op etc.
 
It really is only useful as a bridge to extubation by allowing you to wean off other agents while providing sedation without decreased ventilation.
This I like...it is rather unnerving when they leap up uncontrollably and try to gallop out of the OR/PACU on their newly installed total hip...

Its other main use is to allow for sedation and the coexistence of a meaningful mental status exam.
We don't really do these that often, although we have K9 cog. dysfunction aka doggy dementia...

Other uses for precedex in medicine: awake FOI (allow for adequate Spont Vent with some anxiolysis). Titration during cases where respiratory function may be comprimized to allow for a more comfortable extubation without much narcotic on board. Sternotomies/thoracotamies without epidurals/gastric bypass.
We don't do awake FOIs...but I do like the second part uses....we've had a run on thoracic cases lately for some reason


Precedex will NOT provide anesthesia/amnesia at currently recommended doses (on the label) in HUMANS. Maybe they let you crank that juice through the roof in animals. At high levels (5-10x the max allowed dose) there is some evidence that dexmetatomidate can provide more meaningful/clinically relevant aspects of anesthesia.
At the low doses we use currently (no need to max out, I find it works really well in lower doses) of the medet. I don't appreciate any analgesic level, nor do I wish to expirament with the maxi doses (and then deal with all the other crap that results)

Another problem is the $$$$$.
Yeah, I thought that the Domitor (medet.) was expensive, till I heard the DexDomitor was 60x that! I may have a hard time justifying the expense to the hospital bean counters (especially if we add the Dexmedet. instead of switching out with the medet.

Worst problem I have found is that it SMOKES your blood pressure (especially if hypovolemic). In people with shakey CV systems now you don't know if its the dex or something else. Can be a pain in the a$$.
Venty, when you say smokes, do you mean high or low? (I'd like to be watching for it either way but it helps to know which way the trend is)

Y'all rock! thanks for all the help.
 
Hi if you bolus it quickly, very low on infusion especially in the hypovolemic. Great for stimulating thoracic cases that tend to push your patient's BP through the roof, but not so good for surgeries without much stimulation.
 
It'll drop BP
Thanks for the clarification-that's what I thought but I didn't want to ass-u-me.

I think we'll see if we can get some to use on trial-sometimes they'll give us a good deal on a few vials of new drugs so we can use them and see if we like them.

Thanks again for all your input guys, I know you're busy but I and my patients (and their owners) really appreciate it.

You guys rock!
 
Also useful in intraoperative MI to reduce myocardial oxygen demand and to lessen the incidences of inc. HR and BP, (according to the textbooks, at least - has anyone used it for this in clinical practice? has anyone see it drop HR and BP too much?)
 
Also useful in intraoperative MI to reduce myocardial oxygen demand and to lessen the incidences of inc. HR and BP, (according to the textbooks, at least - has anyone used it for this in clinical practice? has anyone see it drop HR and BP too much?)

Not for that indication, but its a nice benifit.

Clonidine PO pre-op will do this for you too. Plus its cheaper.

I've seen it drop BP low, which is the main reason we discontinue the drug intraop. I haven't witnessed any bradycardia however.
 
I've seen it drop BP low, which is the main reason we discontinue the drug intraop. I haven't witnessed any bradycardia however.

I used it a couple of years ago on a healthy 30 something guy for sedation with a block for some upper extremity ortho thing. He went into a stable idiojunctional rhythm in the 30s toward the end of the procedure (after the infusion was off and he was waking up). It went away in about 15 minutes without intervention.

For whatever its worth...
 
I've used Precedex a few times - most recently in a 'real deal' difficult airway bridge to extubation in the OR. He actually ended up getting a trach, but the plan was to extubate in the OR where we had all of our toys & a handy-dandy ENT with trach-kit in hand.

It is also sweet for the "awake" FOI...as we all know, frequently, the "awake" component commonly deteriorates to "sort of awake" & then "somwhat awake" due to trying to discourage 'audience participation'. Precedex really works well to keep'em chilly, cooperative & BREATHING. But, as pointed out above, they need to be volume replete. If they are not, when you load them (I think ~1mcg/kg), they will take a dump BP-wise. Prolonging the load time helps ameliorate the hypotension. Of course, since all of our pts are wonderfully adherent to our NPO guidelines, they are all volume depleted at induction.

But, before you attempt any FOIs or otherwise, you need to have completed the load & have the infusion titrated to the desired, or at least a reasonable, level of sedation before you begin. For efficiency, that mandates that your pre-op be capable of monitoring a pt who is pharmacologically sedated - DHMCs pre-op area found that to be a particular challenge.

Damn - pager call...gotta go!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Precedex now also appears to be superior to ativan for ICU sedation in a study from one of the Gas/ICU dudes at Vandy in this month's issue of JAMA.
 

Attachments

Does dex. Typically cause more hypotension than propofol?
 
Not for that indication, but its a nice benifit.

Clonidine PO pre-op will do this for you too. Plus its cheaper.

I've seen it drop BP low, which is the main reason we discontinue the drug intraop. I haven't witnessed any bradycardia however.

with a bolus in kids it (almost) universally drops the heartrate and transiently increases the blood pressure. i would guess kids resemble the critters a bit more than adults.

in peds we use it for premed, reduction in post-op emergence delirium, as an adjunct analgesic, and for the afore mentioned sedations and awake foi's.
 
It really is only useful as a bridge to extubation by allowing you to wean off other agents while providing sedation without decreased ventilation. Its other main use is to allow for sedation and the coexistence of a meaningful mental status exam.

Other uses for precedex in medicine: awake FOI (allow for adequate Spont Vent with some anxiolysis). Titration during cases where respiratory function may be comprimized to allow for a more comfortable extubation without much narcotic on board. Sternotomies/thoracotamies without epidurals/gastric bypass.

I have no idea how important those two things are to your profession.

Precedex will NOT provide anesthesia/amnesia at currently recommended doses (on the label) in HUMANS. Maybe they let you crank that juice through the roof in animals. At high levels (5-10x the max allowed dose) there is some evidence that dexmetatomidate can provide more meaningful/clinically relevant aspects of anesthesia.

Another problem is the $$$$$.

Worst problem I have found is that it SMOKES your blood pressure (especially if hypovolemic). In people with shakey CV systems now you don't know if its the dex or something else. Can be a pain in the *****.

There ya go.
Vent


I

HUMBLY AND RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU, VENTY.


At my first Rokkstarr Gig we used Precedex on

EVERY ELECTIVE CABG/VALVE CASE.

We did 450-500 pump cases annually, so I used it ALOT.

It DRAMATICALLY REDUCES VOLATILE AGENT AND OPIOID REQUIREMENT intraoperatively.

We'd routinely do a CABG with

250 micrograms of fentanyl OR LESS.😀

Needless to say, patients awakened very quickly. We had postoperative standing orders to continue the Precedex in the ICU until extubated. It was a very successful route.

Current day with all the spine cases I do, some involve motor evoked potentials which ixnays volatile agent so these cases are TIVA.

Precedex is an integral part of my practice when doing TIVA spines.

It's a great, great drug, albeit with a learning curve.
 
I

HUMBLY AND RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU, VENTY.


At my first Rokkstarr Gig we used Precedex on

EVERY ELECTIVE CABG/VALVE CASE.

We did 450-500 pump cases annually, so I used it ALOT.

It DRAMATICALLY REDUCES VOLATILE AGENT AND OPIOID REQUIREMENT intraoperatively.

We'd routinely do a CABG with

250 micrograms of fentanyl OR LESS.😀

Needless to say, patients awakened very quickly. We had postoperative standing orders to continue the Precedex in the ICU until extubated. It was a very successful route.

Current day with all the spine cases I do, some involve motor evoked potentials which ixnays volatile agent so these cases are TIVA.

Precedex is an integral part of my practice when doing TIVA spines.

It's a great, great drug, albeit with a learning curve.


Hey my post was from 2007! No fair!!

Obviously my use of the drug has changed quite dramatically. I see people using it inappropriately though. Running fentanyl ggt with it. pointless, remember im not trying to run a case anymore 😉. Or they add it on to current sedative/analgesic drips in hopes of weaning to a single agent...Ive never seen it go well. I mainly use it for those folks whove been on the vent but cant be effectively liberated because of agitation (will bolus up front with opiate/benz and crank the dex) OR in my drunks who I dont want to intubate but are on 12mg/hr ativan drips.

How high you run this stuff jet? Do you still get hypotension despite adequatish intavascular volume? The bradycardia doesnt bother me but it bothers the nurses...Anyways TIVA with precedex sounds friggen badass dude!

Ive found that the manufacturer recommended dose range is still pretty weak (at least for my pts' needs) and that HR and BP starts drifting south just when I think the stuff is working. This may be one of the only times (in the unit) where Id use neosyn exclusively but I hate having to counteract one drug with another If I can avoid doing so with the use of alternate means of sedation.
 
Def. great for spine cases.

20-40 mcg dex bolus in pre-op. Take patient back. Start drips as soon as they hit the door (fent, mag, ketafol). Let nuromonitoring guy play with his spagetti balls. Induce. Flip. Check pressure points and eyes. Chill. Give some blood. Turn off drips early. Flip. Check for a leak. Extubate. Patient following commands for neuro check by surgoen in PACU.

Dex def. smooth things out and is propofol sparing.
 
Def. great for spine cases.

20-40 mcg dex bolus in pre-op. Take patient back. Start drips as soon as they hit the door (fent, mag, ketafol). Let nuromonitoring guy play with his spagetti balls. Induce. Flip. Check pressure points and eyes. Chill. Give some blood. Turn off drips early. Flip. Check for a leak. Extubate. Patient following commands for neuro check by surgoen in PACU.

Dex def. smooth things out and is propofol sparing.

How much dexmedetomidine are you typically running intraop?
 
How much dexmedetomidine are you typically running intraop?

.4-.5mcg/kg/hr... usually.

Sometimes if they are real wound up I might bolus 50-100mcg of clonidine or give some methadone up front.
Patients who are heading towards failed back syndrome and have significant chronic pain come to mind.
 
I

HUMBLY AND RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU, VENTY.


At my first Rokkstarr Gig we used Precedex on

EVERY ELECTIVE CABG/VALVE CASE.

We did 450-500 pump cases annually, so I used it ALOT.

It DRAMATICALLY REDUCES VOLATILE AGENT AND OPIOID REQUIREMENT intraoperatively.

We'd routinely do a CABG with

250 micrograms of fentanyl OR LESS.😀

Needless to say, patients awakened very quickly. We had postoperative standing orders to continue the Precedex in the ICU until extubated. It was a very successful route.

Current day with all the spine cases I do, some involve motor evoked potentials which ixnays volatile agent so these cases are TIVA.

Precedex is an integral part of my practice when doing TIVA spines.

It's a great, great drug, albeit with a learning curve.

I haven't started my cardiac month, and I don't think many (if anyone) uses precedex for the hearts cases where I am, so I'd like to give it a try when I do cardiac. My only guess as to why it's not used much where I am would be due to cost.

How much precedex do you give in preop?

How much do you run intraop?

What about cost? Isn't it typically more expensive to use? I know fentanyl is cheap and there's always that propofol shortage.

Def. great for spine cases.

20-40 mcg dex bolus in pre-op. Take patient back. Start drips as soon as they hit the door (fent, mag, ketafol). Let nuromonitoring guy play with his spagetti balls. Induce. Flip. Check pressure points and eyes. Chill. Give some blood. Turn off drips early. Flip. Check for a leak. Extubate. Patient following commands for neuro check by surgoen in PACU.

Dex def. smooth things out and is propofol sparing.

How often are you giving blood for spine cases?

Why are you giving magnesium?
 
How often are you giving blood for spine cases?

Spine cases can be simple one level ACDF's to multi level T10-S1 (or more).

2900170_asj-4-52-g003.png


They can range from little to no blood loss, to heavy blood loss ranging from 1-2 liters or more. Think of slow constant ooze over many hours.
Blood products range from none to many packed units. As always, you need to know where you start heme wise, have a good idea of the patients allowable blood loss, know their comorbidities (pedi scoli case can withstand a lower hemoglobin than the 78 y/o with h/o CAD/dyastolic dysfunction/COPD, etc). I run amicar on the big whacks.
 
Why are you giving magnesium?

Sounds like you are Ca-1 or early CA-2. You should know magnesium in and out. It's a good one to know.

Magnesium:
Anti-arrhythmic/DOC for torsades
Mild relaxant (potentiates neuromuscular blockers)
Treatment for Eclampsia
Brochodialator
Used for adjuvant preoperative therapy for pheochromocytoma
Affects various calcium and sodium channels in the body (I don't remember the mechanisms right now)
Analgesic (NMDA antagonism... just like ketamine and hence the potentiation)
Potentiates both propofol and ketamine decreasing the use of both.

Evolutionarily speaking, we used to eat a lot of berries and berries have a lot of mag in them. Since we have evolved in farming methods and raising cattle, we don't eat as many berries as we used to. A lot of people walk around with lowish magnesium values.

This is off the top of my head. Look it up, learn about it and understand it. It's good stuff.
I'm big on mag. 👍
 
I have seen significant opioid sparing effect in spine patients for the first 8hrs or so, postoperatively with dex. Methadone loading in the OR at the beginning (and re-dosing midway through on long cases) also makes a lot of sense--in kids I see 50-75% reduction in PCA use, compared to those getting fentanyl/remifentanil in the OR during spine cases. Granted, a lot of this effect seems to be the result of them being well-narcotized from a steady state opioid and therefore sedated. Having seen how miserable spine fusion kids can be in the first 48hrs, I assure parents that the alternative is not so fun.

Anybody loading with pregabalin or gabapentin preoperatively in these cases?
 
I have seen significant opioid sparing effect in spine patients for the first 8hrs or so, postoperatively with dex. Methadone loading in the OR at the beginning (and re-dosing midway through on long cases) also makes a lot of sense--in kids I see 50-75% reduction in PCA use, compared to those getting fentanyl/remifentanil in the OR during spine cases. Granted, a lot of this effect seems to be the result of them being well-narcotized from a steady state opioid and therefore sedated. Having seen how miserable spine fusion kids can be in the first 48hrs, I assure parents that the alternative is not so fun.

Anybody loading with pregabalin or gabapentin preoperatively in these cases?

i would do lowish dose ketamine infusion continued into PACU (down to like 5-8 mg/hour) after running 0.5mg/kg/hour and have seen opioid sparing into the next day, anecdotal of course, but i think there is literature behind this as well in lumbar fusion.

edit: in adults...i dont do kids
 
I have seen significant opioid sparing effect in spine patients for the first 8hrs or so, postoperatively with dex. Methadone loading in the OR at the beginning (and re-dosing midway through on long cases) also makes a lot of sense--in kids I see 50-75% reduction in PCA use, compared to those getting fentanyl/remifentanil in the OR during spine cases. Granted, a lot of this effect seems to be the result of them being well-narcotized from a steady state opioid and therefore sedated. Having seen how miserable spine fusion kids can be in the first 48hrs, I assure parents that the alternative is not so fun.

Anybody loading with pregabalin or gabapentin preoperatively in these cases?

Not in kids, but on our adult complex spines (T10-iliac, C3-T2, etc), they get preop celebrex, IV tylenol, and gabapentin. Intraop is ketamine, IV tylenol, and narcotic of choice (plus either gas or prop). Ketamine continued post-op for at least the first night (usually around 10-20mg/hr; with dilaudid PCA and more gabapentin and IV tylenol), often the full POD1. Our Acute Pain Service follows them until the ketamine is off. The patients seem much happier POD1 and 2 than when we did these cases with just opioid intra- and post-op, with maybe some ketamine given intraop.
 
Not in kids, but on our adult complex spines (T10-iliac, C3-T2, etc), they get preop celebrex, IV tylenol, and gabapentin. Intraop is ketamine, IV tylenol, and narcotic of choice (plus either gas or prop). Ketamine continued post-op for at least the first night (usually around 10-20mg/hr; with dilaudid PCA and more gabapentin and IV tylenol), often the full POD1. Our Acute Pain Service follows them until the ketamine is off. The patients seem much happier POD1 and 2 than when we did these cases with just opioid intra- and post-op, with maybe some ketamine given intraop.

DUDE,

THATS THE MOST METICULOUS POST I'VE EVER READ

WHICH ENDED

WITHOUT A MEANING


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR MESSAGE IS.

YOU DON'T "MAKE A POINT"

IN YOUR POST.


A LEARNING POINT FOR YOU AS A WRITER.

Let the audience in on what you are trying to convey.

Sounds easy, HUH?

Obviously not.

TRY AGAIN MAN.
 
2gm of mag cures what ails you.

NO... those little little vials are useless. And I don't bolus them... (especially when you are taking care of little ones... then you have to be careful).

4gms in 100ccs, on a mini drip. Is DA way to go.


cover1.jpg


Watch the vitals.

They will speak to you.
 
Jet, I believe psych/b is giving his routine cocktail and how he does things in his practice/residency.

Good to hear. I don't run ketamine in to pacu. Psych/B has been doing it for a while and is comfortable with it. I'm curious... as I don't run it into pacu. I'm afraid of the pink elephants... after a long posterior... Interesting though. I think Idio does the same?
 
Jet, I was responding to hudsontc's question regarding giving gabapentin or lyrica preop to spines, listed the current practice at my institution, and stated my opinion on how well it appears to be working. Perhaps selectively quoting, or making his question bold when quoted would have made that point better, but nonetheless, the point was made.

Sevo, we've been using ketamine infusions post-op for a few years now, and almost never have patients complaining of hallucinations, or anything that would delay PACU discharge. We actually have been working with the nurses here, and they are comfortable taking patients receiving ketamine upwards of 40mg/hr on regular floors, and recently started using ketamine PCAs for select patients in the same settings. Some of our trauma patients will remain on ketamine as part of their analgesic regimen for weeks in the 10-40mg/hr range, and never complain of hallucinations (or receive their prn ativan).
 
DUDE,

THATS THE MOST METICULOUS POST I'VE EVER READ

WHICH ENDED

WITHOUT A MEANING


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR MESSAGE IS.

YOU DON'T "MAKE A POINT"

IN YOUR POST.


A LEARNING POINT FOR YOU AS A WRITER.

Let the audience in on what you are trying to convey.

Sounds easy, HUH?

Obviously not.

TRY AGAIN MAN.

That's a d*ck response to a helpful and informative post.

And I fail to see how your post, full of incomplete thoughts and inappopriate vocabulary, qualifies you to pass judgment on good writing.
 
Spine cases can be simple one level ACDF's to multi level T10-S1 (or more).

2900170_asj-4-52-g003.png


They can range from little to no blood loss, to heavy blood loss ranging from 1-2 liters or more. Think of slow constant ooze over many hours.
Blood products range from none to many packed units. As always, you need to know where you start heme wise, have a good idea of the patients allowable blood loss, know their comorbidities (pedi scoli case can withstand a lower hemoglobin than the 78 y/o with h/o CAD/dyastolic dysfunction/COPD, etc). I run amicar on the big whacks.

Thanks. I've done some multi-level TLIFs, but not pedi scoliosis cases yet - totally forgot about these cases and potential for blood loss - but at the same time when I posed the question did not consider those cases (i.e. pedi scoliosis, cervical/thoracic to sacral, etc). Been fortunate to have a lot of good ortho-spine and neuro docs where blood loss hadn't been a significant issue (so far anyways). I know amicar is given for pedi spines where I am due to potential for significant blood loss over the 8-9 hrs.

Sounds like you are Ca-1 or early CA-2. You should know magnesium in and out. It's a good one to know.

Magnesium:
Anti-arrhythmic/DOC for torsades
Mild relaxant (potentiates neuromuscular blockers)
Treatment for Eclampsia
Brochodialator
Used for adjuvant preoperative therapy for pheochromocytoma
Affects various calcium and sodium channels in the body (I don't remember the mechanisms right now)
Analgesic (NMDA antagonism... just like ketamine and hence the potentiation)
Potentiates both propofol and ketamine decreasing the use of both.

Evolutionarily speaking, we used to eat a lot of berries and berries have a lot of mag in them. Since we have evolved in farming methods and raising cattle, we don't eat as many berries as we used to. A lot of people walk around with lowish magnesium values.

This is off the top of my head. Look it up, learn about it and understand it. It's good stuff.
I'm big on mag. 👍

Indeed a CA-1. Thanks. I am aware of most of the indications for Mg (learned something about its role in analgesia and its indication in pheochromocytoma cases). I will read about it some more. I've yet to see anyone giving mag infusions for any of the general cases (especially the spine cases) at my institution (unaware of how they do hearts cases), so I had to ask. Sounds like a ninja technique, and something I will bring up to an attending the next time I'm doing a case involving the elderly, spines, etc. Seems like it's also a good option in some peds cases (I imagine spines) too. Very informative and thank you for your time in answering my questions!
 
my recollection is that the data for mag and lido drips is pretty weak sauce.

i keep it pretty simple for spines - somefentanil/propofol for surgery, methadone and/or dilaudid for postop pain, maybe some ketamine bolusses.

that stuff about lo berry intake and mg levels is horse s h i t, but funny. sounds like chiropracterspeak.
 
EFFECTS OF KETAMINE AND MAGNESIUM ON MORPHINE INDUCED TOLERANCE AND DEPENDENCE IN MICE
BOHLUL HABIBI ASL, KAMBIZ HASSANZADEH, SABER MOOSAZADEH
Department of Pharmacology, School of Pharmacy, Tabriz University of Medical Sciences, Tabriz, Iran
ABSTRACT
The goal of this study was to evaluate the effects of ketamine and magnesium on prevention of development of morphine tolerance and dependence in mice. In this study different groups of mice received morphine (50 mg/kg, sc) + (saline 10ml/kg), morphine (50 mg/kg, sc) + ketamine (25,50 or 75 mg/kg, ip), morphine (50 mg/kg, sc) + magnesium (10,20 or 40 mg/kg, ip), morphine (50 mg/kg, sc) + ketamine (25 mg/kg, ip) + magnesium (10 mg/kg, ip)] once a day for four days. Tolerance was assessed by administration of morphine (9 mg/kg, ip) and using hot plate test on fifth day. Withdrawal symptoms were assessed by administration of naloxone (4 mg/kg, ip) two hours after co-administration of morphine with either ketamine or magnesium.
It was found that pretreatment with ketamine or magnesium decreased the degree of tolerance and dependence. Additionally, co-administration of ketamine and magnesium before morphine administration decreased the tolerance and dependence significantly. From these results it may be concluded that administration of ketamine or magnesium alone or together could prevent the development of tolerance and dependence to the analgesic effects of morphine. These effects may be related to the N-Methyl-D- Aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist behavior of ketamine and the ability of magnesium to block the Ca channel of NMDA receptors.
 
Sevo posted this in 2010:





Quote:
Originally Posted by 2win

Sevoflurane - read this :
"
Forty patients undergoing total hip replacement arthroplasty under spinal anaesthesia were recruited to the study. After the induction of spinal anaesthesia, the magnesium group (Group M) received magnesium sulphate 50 mg/kg for 15 minutes and then 15 mg/kg/hour by continuous i.v. infusion until the end of surgery. The saline group (Group S) received the same volume of isotonic saline over the same period. After surgery, a patient-controlled analgesia (PCA) device containing morphine and ketorolac was provided for the patients. Postoperative pain scores, PCA consumption, and the incidences of shivering, postoperative nausea and vomiting were evaluated immediately after surgery, and at 30 minutes, and 4, 24, and 48 hours after surgery. Serum magnesium concentrations were checked before the induction of anaesthesia, immediately after surgery, and at 1 and 24 hours after surgery.

Results

Postoperative pain scores were found to be significantly lower in Group M at 4, 24, and 48 hours after surgery (p<0.05). Cumulative postoperative PCA consumptions were also significantly lower in Group M at 4, 24, and 48 hours after surgery (p<0.05). Postoperative magnesium concentrations were higher in Group M (p<0.05 at 4, 24, and 48 hours after surgery), but no side-effects associated with hypermagnesemia were observed. Haemodynamic variables and the incidences of shivering, nausea, and vomiting were similar in the two groups.

Conclusions

The authors conclude that i.v. magnesium sulphate administration during spinal anaesthesia improves postoperative analgesia."
Nice.

For those doing long back cases and have concerns of propofol syndrome (although I've never seen it in the OR) or just want to cut down on the amount of propofol given, tremendous synergy exists when using propofol, ketamine and magnesium.

Ketamine: increase your amplitude and decreases your latency which is the only drug that does this = neuromonitoring people love it.

Magnesium: bronchodilator, slight muscle relaxation (also good when running motors and don't want to give NMB's), cardiac stable/protective, pain modulator, synergism with other commonly used drugs.

Evolutionarily speaking humans used to eat a lot of berries in their diet. Berries have a lot of mag in them. Now days, our diets are relatively deficient in magnesium. When was the last time you saw a healthy individual with hypermagnesemia? Never.

Magnesium is another great drug in my opinion.
 
Adequate bolus and infusion doses of magnesium sulphate are important for effective analgesia. In a comparison of the effects of three different dose regimens of Mg on postoperative morphine consumption,11 a single bolus injection at 40 mg kg&#8722;1 was found to reduce postoperative morphine consumption, and when this was followed by a maintenance infusion of 10 mg kg&#8722;1 h&#8722;1, the effect was enhanced. Moreover, increasing the maintenance infusion to 20 mg kg&#8722;1 h&#8722;1 provided no additional advantage and induced unwarranted haemodynamic effects. Pre- and intraoperative administration of magnesium sulphate (50 mg kg&#8722;1 bolus and maintenance 15 mg kg&#8722;1 h&#8722;1 of magnesium sulphate) in gynaecology patients receiving total i.v. anaesthesia reduced rocuronium requirement and improved the quality of postoperative analgesia without any significant side-effects.58 Accordingly, in the present study, we administered a 50 mg kg&#8722;1 bolus and a maintenance dose of 15 mg kg&#8722;1 h&#8722;1.
 
Anaesthesia. 2013 Jan;68(1):79-90. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2044.2012.07335.x. Epub 2012 Nov 1.
Peri-operative intravenous administration of magnesium sulphate and postoperative pain: a meta-analysis.
Albrecht E, Kirkham KR, Liu SS, Brull R.
Source
Department of Anaesthesia, Toronto Western Hospital, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. [email protected]&#8194;
Abstract
Intravenous magnesium has been reported to improve postoperative pain; however, the evidence is inconsistent. The objective of this quantitative systematic review is to evaluate whether or not the peri-operative administration of intravenous magnesium can reduce postoperative pain. Twenty-five trials comparing magnesium with placebo were identified. Independent of the mode of administration (bolus or continuous infusion), peri-operative magnesium reduced cumulative intravenous morphine consumption by 24.4% (mean difference: 7.6&#8195;mg, 95% CI -9.5 to -5.8&#8195;mg; p&#8195;<&#8195;0.00001) at 24&#8195;h postoperatively. Numeric pain scores at rest and on movement at 24&#8195;h postoperatively were reduced by 4.2 (95% CI -6.3 to -2.1; p&#8195;<&#8195;0.0001) and 9.2 (95% CI -16.1 to -2.3; p&#8195;=&#8195;0.009) out of 100, respectively. We conclude that peri-operative intravenous magnesium reduces opioid consumption, and to a lesser extent, pain scores, in the first 24&#8195;h postoperatively, without any reported serious adverse effects.
 
Due to this thread I'm going to increase my bolus from 30 mg/kg to 40 mg/kg. I don't run an infusion and have no plans to do so.

Sevo seems correct in his 4 gram approach but I will use 40 mg/kg bolus over 15 min. Some choose 50 mg:kg but the benefit over 40/kg hasn't been proven.
 
FYI, precedex works great for sleep apnea patients. I prefer it post op for ventilated patients in this subgroup over anything else. Intraop it reduces anesthesia requirements significantly. The downside is cost.
 
Dexmedetomidine exhibits linear pharmacokinetics in the recommended dose range of 0.2 to 0.7 &#956;g/ kg/ hr administered as intravenous infusion up to 24 hours. The distribution phase is rapid, with a half-life of distribution of approximately 6 minutes and elimination half life of 2 hours. The steady-state volume of distribution is 118 L. The average protein binding is 94% and is constant across the different plasma concentrations and also similar in males and females. It has negligible protein binding displacement by drugs commonly used during anesthesia and in the ICU like fentanyl, ketorolac, theophylline, digoxin, and lidocaine. [10] Context-sensitive half life ranges from 4 minutes after a 10-minute infusion to 250 minutes after an 8-hour infusion. Oral bioavailability is poor because of extensive first-pass metabolism. However, bioavailability of sublingually administered dexmedetomidine is high (84%), offering a potential role in pediatric sedation and premedication. [11]

Metabolism and excretion

Dexmedetomidine undergoes almost complete biotransformation through direct N-glucuronidation and cytochrome P-450 (CYP 2A6)-mediated aliphatic hydroxylation to inactive metabolites. Metabolites are excreted in the urine (about 95%) and in the feces (4%). [10] Dose adjustments are required in patients with hepatic failure because of lower rate of metabolism.


Clinical Pharmacology


Cardiovascular system

Dexmedetomidine evokes a biphasic blood pressure response: A short hypertensive phase and subsequent hypotension. The two phases are considered to be mediated by two different &#945; 2-AR subtypes: the &#945; -2B AR is responsible for the initial hypertensive phase, whereas hypotension is mediated by the &#945; 2A-AR. [12] In younger patients with high levels of vagal tone, bradycardia and sinus arrest have been described which were effectively treated with anticholinergic agents (atropine, glycopyrrolate).

Central nervous system

Dexmedetomidine reduces cerebral blood flow and cerebral metabolic requirement of oxygen but its effect on intracranial pressure (ICP) is not yet clear. Dexmedetomidine modulates spatial working memory, enhancing cognitive performance besides having sedative, analgesic, and anxiolytic action through the &#945; 2-AR. [13] Studies suggest the likelihood of its neuroprotective action by reducing the levels of circulating and brain catecholamines and thus balancing the ratio between cerebral oxygen supplies, reducing excitotoxicity, and improving the perfusion in the ischemic penumbra. It reduces the levels of the glutamate responsible for cellular brain injury, especially in subarachnoid hemorrhage. [14] It has been shown to limit the morphologic and functional effects after ischemic (focal and global) and traumatic injury to the nervous system.

Respiratory effects

Dexmedetomidine affect on respiration appears to be similar in order of magnitude to those seen in the heavy sleep state. [15] Dexmedetomidine does not suppress respiratory function, even at high doses. [16] It has no adverse effects on respiratory rate and gas exchange when used in spontaneously breathing ICU patients after surgery. [15] It helps in maintaining sedation without cardiovascular instability or respiratory drive depression and hence may facilitate weaning and extubation in trauma/surgical ICU patients who have failed previous attempts at weaning because of agitation and hyperdynamic cardiopulmonary response. [2],[17]

Endocrine and renal effects

Dexmedetomidine activates peripheral presynaptic &#945; 2- AR which reduces the release of catecholamines, and hence reduces sympathetic response to surgery. [18] Animal studies have demonstrated the occurrence of natriuresis and diuresis. Dexmedetomidine is an imidazole agent but unlike etomidate, it does not appear to inhibit steroidogenesis when used as an infusion for short-term sedation. [19]


Adverse Effects


The various reported side effects are hypotension, hypertension, nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, bradycardia, atrial fibrillation, pyrexia, chills, pleural effusion, atelectasis, pulmonary edema, hyperglycemia, hypocalcaemia, acidosis, etc. Rapid administration of dexmedetomidine infusion (Loading dose of 1 &#956;/ kg/ hr if given in less than 10 minutes) may cause transient hypertension mediated by peripheral &#945; 2B- AR vasoconstriction. [5] But hypotension and bradycardia may occur with ongoing therapy mediated by central &#945; 2A-AR, causing decreased release of noradrenaline from the sympathetic nervous system. Long-term use of dexmedetomidine leads to super sensitization and upregulation of receptors; so, with abrupt discontinuation, a withdrawal syndrome of nervousness, agitation, headaches, and hypertensive crisis can occur. [20] Dexmedetomidine is not recommended in patients with advanced heart block and ventricular dysfunction. [5] FDA has classified it as a category C pregnancy risk, so the drug should be used with extreme caution in women who are pregnant.
 
Paediatr Anaesth. 2008 Aug;18(8):782-4. doi: 10.1111/j.1460-9592.2008.02622.x.
Novel use of dexmedetomidine in a patient with pulmonary hypertension.
Nathan AT, Marino BS, Hanna B, Nicolson SC.
Source
Department of Anesthesiology and Critical Care Medicine, The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, 34th St and Civic Center Blvd, Philadelphia, PA 19104-4399, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
The presence of pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH) is a significant predictor of major perioperative cardiovascular complications in patients undergoing cardiac diagnostic or interventional procedure or non cardiac surgery under sedation and/or anesthesia. Factors that precipitate a pulmonary hypertensive crisis include hypoxia, hypercarbia, acidosis, hypothermia, pain and airway manipulations. Pain management is challenging in patients with significant PAH. We report the use of dexmedetomidine for sedation and analgesia in a 16 year old patient with significant pulmonary hypertension, pneumonia and impending cardiorespiratory failure. This resulted in avoidance of endotracheal intubation and positive pressure ventilation, with subsequent recovery to discharge home.
 
Precedex as good as Versed or Propofol, but with cardiovascular effects (RCT, JAMA)
BEST OF 2012, Critical Care, JAMA, Mechanical Ventilation, Randomized Controlled Trials Add comments
Jan
06
2013


Precedex Takes Step Toward FDA Indication for Longer-Term Use
Precedex (dexmedetomidine) only has existing FDA indications for short-term sedation (< 24 hours) in both mechanically ventilated and non-intubated patients. That short leash is because of dexmedetomidine's tendency to produce hypotension and bradycardia, and has limited Precedex's approved uses mainly to elective surgeries and other invasive procedures. Many intensivists use Precedex off-label for critically ill patients undergoing longer periods of mechanical ventilation; an indication here would create a much larger market for Precedex, since >300,000 patients experience prolonged mechanical ventilation each year, and many receive continuous sedative infusions for days or weeks.

With the results of 2 randomized Phase III/IV trials reported by Stephan Jakob, Esko Ruokonen, and Jukka Tukala in the March 21 JAMA, Precedex marketer Hospira may eventually get their wish &#8212; though probably with strings attached.

What They Did:
Investigators randomized 1,000 patients at 44 European and Russian ICUs who were mechanically ventilated for > 24 hours to receive either dexmedetomidine (Precedex), midazolam (Versed), or propofol (Diprivan) as sedation (the MIDEX and PRODEX trials). The exclusion criteria were relatively narrow and reasonable (e.g., pregnancy, shock, pre-existing bradycardia). Precedex dosing was 0.2-1.4 µg/kg/hr &#8212; up to twice the maximum 0.7 µcg/kg/hr Precedex dosing approved by the FDA in the U.S.

They measured the duration of time spent at the desired level of sedation on the Richmond Agitation-Sedation Scale and duration of mechanical ventilation (primary outcomes), as well as numerous secondary outcomes.

The trials were designed and controlled by Orion Pharma (Finland), patent holders of Precedex, based on the primary authors' original idea. Orion also performed the statistical analyses, which the authors independently verified, reporting they had full access to all the data. Only one author (not a lead author) disclosed a personal consulting payment from Orion/Hospira; all authors' institutions received grants and payments for recruiting patients, as is customary. Authors report writing the manuscript cooperatively with Orion's team, who are listed as co-authors (no ghostwriter/medical communications agency is mentioned).

What They Found:
Patients receiving Precedex spent virtually the same amount of time at the target level of sedation as did patients receiving either Versed or propofol. I.E., dexmedetomidine was as effective as either midazolam or propofol at sedating mechanically ventilated patients for extended periods (more than half the patients were on ventilators for longer than 4 days).

Precedex also appeared to reduce the total time spent on mechanical ventilation (invasive + non-invasive), compared to midazolam (Versed). Those getting Precedex were extubated almost 2 days sooner, and required a median of 123 hours total assisted ventilation vs. 164 hours for midazolam (p=0.03).

Precedex also reduced ventilator days by 1 day compared to propofol (p=0.04); however, they reported this as "no difference" because after considering the patients requiring non-invasive ventilation after extubation, the difference in total assisted ventilation time was no longer statistically significant (I thought this was too conservative).

There were no differences in length of stay in the ICU or hospital between groups. There was an excess of deaths in the Precedex group in MIDEX; a slight excess of deaths in the propofol group (favoring Precedex) in PRODEX; neither were statistically significant differences in mortality. The overall mortality of Precedex-treated patients was 22%; for standard-care (midazolam or propofol), 20% (p=0.49).

Patients were more alert and communicative while receiving Precedex than either midazolam or propofol, and better able to communicate pain (this was determined and reported by the nurses caring for them, using a Visual Analogue Scale).

Cardiovascular Adverse Events from Precedex?
Dexmedetomidine is a centrally-acting alpha-2 agonist. If that sounds a lot like the antihypertensive drug clonidine, that's because it is: dexmedetomidine is a slightly altered version of clonidine, but has an 8-fold higher affinity for receptors in the CNS. Despite the molecular tweak, dexmedetomidine still has some cardiovascular effects. In one of the trials (the MIDEX trial),

Hypotension was reported in 21% (51 of 247) patients receiving Precedex, but only 12% (29 of 250) in those receiving midazolam.
Bradycardia was reported in 14% (35 of 247) patients receiving Precedex, and only 5% (13 of 250) patients receiving midazolam.
In the other trial (PRODEX), no differences in the incidence of hypotension and bradycardia between Precedex and propofol were noted, (about 13% for all arms for both hypotension and bradycardia).

Other Info
In an earlier multicenter randomized trial published in JAMA in 2009 (n=375), Precedex also reduced ventilator days by 2 compared to midazolam. In that trial, they used more liberal definitions of hypotension and bradycardia. The incidence of bradycardia was 42% in the Precedex-treated patients and 19% in the Versed patients. There was no excess hypotension in the Precedex-treated patients (56% in both arms).

In a 2011 summary of Precedex safety data from RCTs analyzed by the the EMA (European FDA), the drug was found to be discontinued about 2% of the time for bradycardia and 1.5% of the time for hypotension, slightly more than propofol (0.4% brady and 1.1% hypotension) and significantly more than midazolam (0.3% and 0.3%).

Precedex annual sales have been estimated at $200 million. Hospira faces the prospect of generic competition against Precedex soon, as its patents begin to expire beginning in July 2013. Precedex costs about $100-300 / day per patient, about the same as brand name propofol, but much less than midazolam.

Clinical Takeaway: This adds to previous evidence that Precedex probably works for longer periods of sedation, without obvious excess of harm over alternative agents, and with possible benefits of reducing the time of mechanical ventilation (but not in the ICU). Dexmedetomidine has been approved and used in Japan for extended episodes of mechanical ventilation since 2010, after a postmarketing phase IV study suggested safety; postmarketing surveillance has so far identified no safety concerns that have been made public. Hypotension or conduction disease should be absolute barriers to using it, to me. Watch for a full-court press from Hospira to get this new FDA indication, as their patent window is narrowing and their stock price has been stagnant, reportedly from problems in their other product lines.

Jakob SM et al. Dexmedetomidine vs Midazolam or Propofol for Sedation During Prolonged Mechanical Ventilation. JAMA 2012;307:1151-1160
 
Due to this thread I'm going to increase my bolus from 30 mg/kg to 40 mg/kg. I don't run an infusion and have no plans to do so.

Sevo seems correct in his 4 gram approach but I will use 40 mg/kg bolus over 15 min. Some choose 50 mg:kg but the benefit over 40/kg hasn't been proven.

Thanks for doing some of the leg work on the topic Blade. 👍

Most americans are magnesium deficient.

"Magnesium deficiency in humans can be mild or severe, and studies suggest it is more and more common. Reports published by the World Health Organization have estimated that three quarters of Americans do not meet the Recommended Daily Intake (RDI) of magnesium."

"How serious is this problem? Average magnesium intake in the U.S. has dwindled to less than half what it was a century ago:

In the year 1900: 500 mg per day
Today: 175-225 mg per day
"

I'm big on Mag. I find it interesting from a cultural/agriculture anthropology point of view.
 
Here is another good one to know. Mag is also antidiabetic by helping insulin work more efficiently.


http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/9/2116.full

N = 536,318 = power

CONCLUSIONS This meta-analysis provides further evidence supporting that magnesium intake is significantly inversely associated with risk of type 2 diabetes in a dose-response manner.
 
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