Disgruntled Doctors..Why hate Medicine...?

[mrjbb]

The fact of the matter is that there are so many disgruntled Interns and Residents in the medical field that many wish they would've never pursued their "Dreams" at the time when they had a choice whether to go or not to matriculate into med school, however now its to late... And I asked myself why is that....? Fact is that many had a different view of how they would spend their Intern and Residency years and now come to find out, its nothing compared to what they mustered it up to be. The long hours, the depriving of sleep, the BS they have to put up with, the belittling by the Attending s that think their Gods, have clearly made many rethink and simply regret ever going to med school... There's a study that reflects how physician suicide rates are 40% higher than the normal population. So what makes you start out being an undergrad wanting nothing more than to get an acceptance and becoming a doctor, then 5 years later regretting ever getting an acceptance and wishing you would've been rejected from the beginning so you wouldn't have to endure this BS for the next few years..?? Were you forced to become a doctor or influenced greatly by your parents and now you wish you wouldn't have listened..? Did you blindly want to become a doctor focusing on the "bright side" of the career (i.e. power, influence, money) without analyzing the dark/undeserved phases you might of had to go through..? Did you think that becoming a doctor was similar to a fairytale..? Or did you think that the starting and middle points throughout the pursuit of your career were going to be difficult but in the end after you received that degree that read Blah Blah M.D. you were going to live happily ever after? C'mon people!! If your unhappy and hate being a doctor because of the hours, BS, undeserved salary, deprived sleep then you should've thought about it TWICE before signing that piece of paper at the bank which stated you were going to borrow $40,000 for that first year!! I think that all pre-meds should be EDUCATED correctly about the dark side of medicine, that way you wont have an excuse when your a doc on how you never knew that becoming a doctor was one of the worst mistakes you've ever made..!!!! All pre-meds at one point should deeply rethink their choice on becoming a doc.. If your afraid to rethink your career choice because you know there's a possibility you'll realize you wont want to become a doc after all, then shouldn't that tell you something.....??? All I'm saying is I am tired of hearing about all these disgruntled docs , its ok to not "love" your profession and maybe feel like you've made a mistake when you chose your career however don't come with the excuse that "If I would've only known eight years ago"... BS you did know you just chose to ignore it...Simple...My thoughts... Feel free to input....

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[Easy E]

I have never met a disgruntled doctor so I have no idea what you are talking about and based on your post I don't get the impression that you know what you are talking about. Yes, premeds tend to imagine medicine as being more glamorous than what it is but that is why shadowing etc is so important. Undeserved salary...??? You sound jaded.

By the way, it is a lot not alot. You wouldn't say alittle. Don't take offense to the correction I am not pretending to be perfect.

 

[mrjbb]

I have never met a disgruntled doctor so I have no idea what you are talking about and based on your post I don't get the impression that you know what you are talking about. Yes, premeds tend to imagine medicine as being more glamorous than what it is but that is why shadowing etc is so important. Undeserved salary...??? You sound jaded.

By the way, it is a lot not alot. You wouldn't say alittle. Don't take offense to the correction I am not pretending to be perfect.

Yes I actually do know what I am talking about. Unlike you I have met several disgruntled docs and this is where I'm getting my info from. The glamorous view as you stated above is a misconception that might prevent you from realizing that medicine isn't right for you. That's all I'm saying.

Oh and thats okay that you corrected my spelling, I knew I just tend to forget when I'm typing fast.. But I'll take constructive criticism any day..

 

[BillyWitchDoctr]

Why are you so upset about this? Every field has disgruntled people working in it. I'd bet that there are more satisfied doctors practicing than disgruntled ones.

Whenever I've been in the ER at 4am I think about how what I'm doing is exceptionally cool and beats the hell out of flipping burgers or delivering pizzas.

 

[Law2Doc]

Why are you so upset about this? Every field has disgruntled people working in it. I'd bet that there are more satisfied doctors practicing than disgruntled ones.

Whenever I've been in the ER at 4am I think about how what I'm doing is exceptionally cool and beats the hell out of flipping burgers or delivering pizzas.

Well, I actually agree with the OP a bit (to the extent I understood him/her), and disagree with your above analogy.
You need to have your eyes open going into medicine because there are some significant negatives and it is nothing like what is portrayed on TV, nor in a lot of ways is it really the same profession as it was back in your parent's generation.

Unlike other careers where you might end up disgruntled (1) folks who go into medicine actually had a choice -- we are talking about people who worked hard and achieved in undergrad and this is but one door they could have opened for themselves, and (2) thanks to high loans and long training before you can start paying them down, you are basically locked into medicine for many years once you start. So you can't try it out for a few years and see if you like it. You can with some other jobs.

So go into medicine with your eyes open. If you research it, know it's a lot of work, a lot of hours, a lot of paperwork, a lot of liability, a lot of scut, and not nearly the glory, respect or money some folks seem to think, you are ready to push on. If it's something you think will find interesting and enjoy, notwithstanding the negative then super.

 

[mdjobexchange]

Amongst all the negativity, the original poster does have a really good point. Med school is crazy expensive now. Average debt is about 160k. Housing prices are nuts. Public school quality is crap, so you have to budget 12k a yr for each kids school.

Being 30 yo with 160k of debt as a internist making 140k makes you very middle class in 2008.

You can be a pharmacist and make 120k as a clinical pharmacist which gives you challenges and direct pt care.

Crnas make 160k and you could be done at age 26 with only 80k of debt.

You could be done with PA school at age 25 and 60k of debt and make 70k.

My brother makes 200/hr doing computer work.

I would still do it again today, even with the higher debt. I would choose anesthesia again. Specialty choice is key. I think some doctors base their choice only on the residency or that they like to stand around for hours debating the latest findings in the Chinese Journal of Experimental Hamster Science on medicine rounds. They do not consider what their life will be like afterwards.

 

[foreverLaur]

if you think medicine is glamorous and such... then you obviously haven't even taken 10 minutes to figure out what medicine really is about. not to say that it isn't a glamorous career in many ways... but it is not hard to figure out about the long work hours and stress of the job and the time/money to get there.

 

[ZagDoc]

Long hours, constant stress, never enough sleep, lots of debt, difficult patients, crazy insurance politiking... they can wear down on a person pretty quick.

That being said, once most have settled into their careers as physicians, most (if not nearly all) will be quick to point out that patient care, the success stories, the gratification of the job offset it all... most of the time.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I think it's funny that you think you "know what it's like" as an intern/resident because you talked to a couple people one time, and read SDN.

IF you get into med school, and IF you get into residency after that, pop your head back in here and tell us about how it's everything you imagined, that the hours and treatment don't bother you a bit, and you have no regrets. In the meantime, worry less about how the residents feel, and worry more about whether or not you're going to pass Freshman Remedial Algebra.

Then why are you on the pre-medical board? It is not like he is posting on the residency boards.

 

[BlackSails]

Then why are you on the pre-medical board? It is not like he is posting on the residency boards.

Because out of the goodness of his heart, he spends some of his time each day helping us plebians.

 

[mshheaddoc]

if you think medicine is glamorous and such... then you obviously haven't even taken 10 minutes to figure out what medicine really is about. not to say that it isn't a glamorous career in many ways... but it is not hard to figure out about the long work hours and stress of the job and the time/money to get there.

Not even the long hours/hard work, its the liability. I know a resident on surgery call a few weeks ago, everything this resident did was to 'avoid' a lawsuit. ER calls for consult, of course its NOTHING surgical but this resident needs to go to the ER because they will put in the file "called resident for consult". Attending full well knowing that they aren't going to admit her (and ended up just releasing her) just has to have a doc spend 20-30 mins of their time down there to cover their asses. This was the theme of the rest of the night for this resident. That and one of the nurses told a patient they had a few months to live when no one knows WHERE this nurse (that was from an agency - yeah I had to throw that in there) came up with that number and left the resident trying to explain to the patient and family that this nurse made a mistake. Its the doctor-patient relationship that has to be strong, patients NEED someone to trust when they are sick. Its just a few little things that go wrong that create this litigatious (i think i just made up that word) society we dwell.

Just ONE aspect of the many things wrong but yes, you need to be realistic about medicine and many aren't. But mostly because you aren't practicing medicine as a doctor anymore, you're practicing paperwork/documentation/insurance/"how many days can we get this patient out because insurance will only pay for 4".

Why are we doing this again?

Oh and those stats about suicide are bogus. From what I've seen its 10% which is normal about the population. Only reason why I know that is because we researched it after my friends neighbor (who's a doctor) committed suicide. There's be much a debate on that aspect of medicine.

And this would make a GREAT discussion for Topics In Healthcare where more pre-meds should visit for discussions like this! *hint hint*

 

[proclivity]

if you think medicine is glamorous and such... then you obviously haven't even taken 10 minutes to figure out what medicine really is about. not to say that it isn't a glamorous career in many ways... but it is not hard to figure out about the long work hours and stress of the job and the time/money to get there.

howdy friend, we may be applying for same year. Go luck to you.

 

[proclivity]

......That and one of the nurses told a patient they had a few months to live when no one knows WHERE this nurse (that was from an agency - yeah I had to throw that in there) came up with that number and left the resident trying to explain to the patient and family that this nurse made a mistake........

I'm going to apologize to you all for this ignorant nurse who obviously lacks professionalism and knowledge of nurse's scope pf practice. These nurses are outliers and i hope none of you have taken this as an example of nurses in general. That nurse is in one sad state of affairs and should surrender their license to practice.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I'm going to apologize to you all for this ignorant nurse who obviously lacks professionalism and knowledge of nurse's scope pf practice. These nurses are outliers and i hope none of you have taken this as an example of nurses in general. That nurse is in one sad state of affairs and should surrender their license to practice.

And I didn't mean to generalize. But some agency nurses have the raw deal. a few months stint at a hospital that they don't know the hospital that well adn I feel sorry. But b/c of the nursing shortage the lack of quality nurses that know what they are doing IS becoming a problem and one that physicians will have to face along with THEIR shortages. Compounding problems kids and it sucks.

Nurses = gods in my eyes for their jobs. But as with every profession, not all of them are good.

 

[FIREitUP]

I have never met a disgruntled doctor so I have no idea what you are talking about and based on your post I don't get the impression that you know what you are talking about. Yes, premeds tend to imagine medicine as being more glamorous than what it is but that is why shadowing etc is so important. Undeserved salary...??? You sound jaded.

By the way, it is a lot not alot. You wouldn't say alittle. Don't take offense to the correction I am not pretending to be perfect.

you haven't?? you must have been in a very affluent hospital. when i volunteered in a hospital in NYC (one that currently is struggling to survive) almost every sing doctor tried to steer me away from going to medical school, and told me that they try to discourage their children from becoming MD's. Additionally, I had a resident (in opthamology, mind you) basically tell me to go into business.
The bitterness in the medical field is palpable. Not only are doctors getting paid less, they are becoming bombarded with malpractice premiums, having to work long hours, and having to deal with insurance companies.
I agree with the OP.

 

[8744]

The fact of the matter is that there are so many disgruntled Interns and Residents in the medical field that many wish they would've never pursued their "Dreams" at the time when they had a choice whether to go or not to matriculate into med school, however now its to late... And I asked myself why is that....? Fact is that many had a different view of how they would spend their Intern and Residency years and now come to find out, its nothing compared to what they mustered it up to be. The long hours, the depriving of sleep, the BS they have to put up with, the belittling by the Attending s that think their Gods, have clearly made many rethink and simply regret ever going to med school... There's a study that reflects how physician suicide rates are 40% higher than the normal population. So what makes you start out being an undergrad wanting nothing more than to get an acceptance and becoming a doctor, then 5 years later regretting ever getting an acceptance and wishing you would've been rejected from the beginning so you wouldn't have to endure this BS for the next few years..?? Were you forced to become a doctor or influenced greatly by your parents and now you wish you wouldn't have listened..? Did you blindly want to become a doctor focusing on the "bright side" of the career (i.e. power, influence, money) without analyzing the dark/undeserved phases you might of had to go through..? Did you think that becoming a doctor was similar to a fairytale..? Or did you think that the starting and middle points throughout the pursuit of your career were going to be difficult but in the end after you received that degree that read Blah Blah M.D. you were going to live happily ever after? C'mon people!! If your unhappy and hate being a doctor because of the hours, BS, undeserved salary, deprived sleep then you should've thought about it TWICE before signing that piece of paper at the bank which stated you were going to borrow $40,000 for that first year!! I think that all pre-meds should be EDUCATED correctly about the dark side of medicine, that way you wont have an excuse when your a doc on how you never knew that becoming a doctor was one of the worst mistakes you've ever made..!!!! All pre-meds at one point should deeply rethink their choice on becoming a doc.. If your afraid to rethink your career choice because you know there's a possibility you'll realize you wont want to become a doc after all, then shouldn't that tell you something.....??? All I'm saying is I am tired of hearing about all these disgruntled docs , its ok to not "love" your profession and maybe feel like you've made a mistake when you chose your career however don't come with the excuse that "If I would've only known eight years ago"... BS you did know you just chose to ignore it...Simple...My thoughts... Feel free to input....

You are way, way over-thinking things. Residency sucks because of the long hours and crappy pay. As for knowing what it was like eight years ago, I submit that the current crop of pre-meds is information-spoiled compared to pre-meds only 10 years ago.

How long, after all, has SDN been around? Ten years ago most people were still connecting to the internet with phone modems and there was not the wealth of information online and easily accessable SDN and other sites like it were in their infancy and the information you could get was sketchy at best.

I assure you that if blogs like mine (which is all true, even when I am being funny) were around back in 1998 when I first started the application process I would have probably not applied. That's just the way it is. I assure you that mine is not a minority opinion. I like it for the most part but if it wasn't for the money that I will make (if all goes well) it would so not be worth it.

Besides, your post is contradictory. On one hand you insist that pre-meds learn the good and the bad before making a decision but on the other you malign those of us giving you the information.

 

[WantsThisBad]

Whenever I read a thread like this there's always this undertone that becoming a doctor is not the right thing for ANYONE. Why can't there be people that it's right for? Every single profession has it's dark side. I bet you can't name a single profession that hasn't led many people to suicide. I think it's all about people going into the profession that actually want to go through it. I know it sounds crazy but when I'm at the hospital volunteering and I see med students and residents doing rounds and learning in the hospital it makes me jealous. I know that it's going to be a lot of work and many hours of, "why did I do this? I would rather be on the beach." but if being a doctor is what you want to do then it's necessary that you go through those harder times to get there and to get there being a competent physician.

I met a guy who came here from another country. He was already a general surgeon who was well into his practice. He came here and got a job working at a hospital not as a doctor. He helped to pay for his brothers to go through med school and hes now taking the USMLE sequence and hes going to start an entirely new residency. Some people just want to be doctors and they know what they are getting themselves into.

Every doctor I have told that I'm considering med school has encouraged me. I have had a few tell me it's the best profession you can be in. I think that those who go into it for the wrong reasons will suffer and a post on SDN isn't going to save them. Let's not be so negative about a profession that many of us plan to enter.

 

[Vitum Medicinus]

While the OP writes in haste I do agree with the gist of their comments.

That's why I emphasize so much knowing what medicine is like before you enter the profession, and emphasize being 1000% sure it's what you want to do.

Wanna find out the rough side of medicine? Anybody who can read the Don't Become a Doctor series will be a MUCH more informed applicant.

 

[Law2Doc]

Whenever I read a thread like this there's always this undertone that becoming a doctor is not the right thing for ANYONE. Why can't there be people that it's right for?

There are definitely people it is right for. But there will be some on pre-allo for whom it isn't, and they sometimes don't realize it. Thus a reality check is a very healthy thing.

As a premed, I think you need to proceed with caution when you hear a resident on here not so much saying it's a horrible job, but pondering whether he would do it again in retrospect. Doesn't mean you would make the same decision as him, but I think folks probably want to at least think it through.

 

[MossPoh]

I've met both sides of docs. Many of them flip-flop on a daily basis anyway...when you are having a rough day at work you tend to become more negative. I had this discussion with various levels of physicians from fresh out of residency to retiring. The fresh out of residency ones to maybe 5 years in were all pretty happy. The older ones tended to be a little more bitter. I don't expect it to be a super fantastic fun t.v. like job....i've come to accept there is crap and lots of it. All of the older guys do the "It ain't what it used to be"...well no ****. Guess what? I have never seen the old way...this is all I know. I feel like I have had a better viewpoint of medicine considering it was what I was raised with my entire life. It is probably the reason I came back to it...I tried other stuff but none held my interest. I am slightly masochistic and very stubborn...

I think the people who have come from a different career are probably happier. Probably less doubts when all is said and done...they've been there and done that. I mean..one of you guys that worked in another sector before medicine can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think the people who have come from a different career are probably happier. Probably less doubts when all is said and done...they've been there and done that. I mean..one of you guys that worked in another sector before medicine can correct me if I'm wrong.

I suspect that's true. You have a more realistic view of what the grass looks like on the other side of the fence. And you know yourself and what trade-offs you are willing to endure a lot beter.

 

[riceman04]

Well, I actually agree with the OP a bit (to the extent I understood him/her), and disagree with your above analogy.
You need to have your eyes open going into medicine because there are some significant negatives and it is nothing like what is portrayed on TV, nor in a lot of ways is it really the same profession as it was back in your parent's generation.

Unlike other careers where you might end up disgruntled (1) folks who go into medicine actually had a choice -- we are talking about people who worked hard and achieved in undergrad and this is but one door they could have opened for themselves, and (2) thanks to high loans and long training before you can start paying them down, you are basically locked into medicine for many years once you start. So you can't try it out for a few years and see if you like it. You can with some other jobs.

So go into medicine with your eyes open. If you research it, know it's a lot of work, a lot of hours, a lot of paperwork, a lot of liability, a lot of scut, and not nearly the glory, respect or money some folks seem to think, you are ready to push on. If it's something you think will find interesting and enjoy, notwithstanding the negative then super.

I definitely agree...but there are some things to which you will not be exposed even while gaining clinical experience as a pre-med.

Do you think that medical schools should incorporate a minimum number of clinical experience hours into the requirements for applying?

 

[mshheaddoc]

I definitely agree...but there are some things to which you will not be exposed even while gaining clinical experience as a pre-med.

Do you think that medical schools should incorporate a minimum number of clinical experience hours into the requirements for applying?

how can you make sure that each student would have the same experience (or the "ideal" experience you would like for them to see - i.e. good and bad things of medicine)?

Its a good thought but I don't see that truly happening. Although it would be nice to see some pre-med organizations at least giving some focus on this to their members. Probably one of the only ways, if not taking a pre-med class. Yes I've seen classes like this that actually talk about how to apply to med school. If not actual credit classes (which i know 2 schools that offer this for 1 credit!) then seminars. Not to disuade anyone from applying to medicine but to open their eyes so they realize. I think those methods would be more effective.

 

[Jew Alcindor]

I've been searching this board and reading all the threads on the subject and it seems like the majority would not do it over again. It seems to all boil down to medicine being a degrading profession.

I'm willing to listen; what's a better career?

 

[riceman04]

how can you make sure that each student would have the same experience (or the "ideal" experience you would like for them to see - i.e. good and bad things of medicine)?

Its a good thought but I don't see that truly happening. Although it would be nice to see some pre-med organizations at least giving some focus on this to their members. Probably one of the only ways, if not taking a pre-med class. Yes I've seen classes like this that actually talk about how to apply to med school. If not actual credit classes (which i know 2 schools that offer this for 1 credit!) then seminars. Not to disuade anyone from applying to medicine but to open their eyes so they realize. I think those methods would be more effective.

Obviously you can't...but it would at least weed out those who simply apply without gaining some type of specific clinical experience. I am still surprised by how few people (I know) actually gained some type of clin experience before applying to medical school

 

[deleted36260]

I have met some doctors that have good reasons for being pissed off. But I have also met some that went highschool-> College -> MedSchool and never worked a day in their life.
I want to claw my eyes out when I see them complain about certain menial tasks, as if they are suddenly too good to do them! Give me a break!!

 

[ScubaEMT]

While I have met residents who are pretty stressed out, I have yet to come across somebody who expressed genuine regret for having chosen to get into medicine.

Perhaps the OP either takes playful "why me?" talk the wrong way or they know some residents in a REALLY bad program.

 

[mshheaddoc]

While I have met residents who are pretty stressed out, I have yet to come across somebody who expressed genuine regret for having chosen to get into medicine.

Perhaps the OP either takes playful "why me?" talk the wrong way or they know some residents in a REALLY bad program.

Ironically most of my friends who are residents have expressed to me that if they had to choose it again, they would not do medicine. I was extremely surprised to hear them say that. I also did have a few doctors make offhand comments like that, surprised me as well. I don't think its just a few people. Read some of the threads in the med school forums or residency forums where this is discussed. Many will say they might not do it again knowing what they know now.

 

[foreverLaur]

while i haven't met anyone who regrets medicine, i'm yet to find a doctor who encourages me to go into medicine. they all tell me to look at other careers because medicine just isn't what it used to be.

 

[smq123]

I've been searching this board and reading all the threads on the subject and it seems like the majority would not do it over again. It seems to all boil down to medicine being a degrading profession.

I'm willing to listen; what's a better career?

Any career that you've researched thoroughly and still want to do.

Seriously, medicine IS a good career. But the problem with being pre-med is that your "shadowing" experience is pretty limited. Most people shadow a family doctor or something - i.e. outpatient, private practice, which isn't that hard or demanding sometimes. Plus, the preceptor usually shields you from the worst part of his job. Some people have volunteered in an ER or something like that, but again, it's an isolated experience and you don't see a lot of the $h!t that most residents/attendings have to deal with. And finally, most pre-meds who shadow never ask themselves "Could I deal with this kind of stuff day after day? What if I were in that resident's shoes?"

As an MS3, I know that I complain a lot about dealing with toxic senior residents and being exhausted so much...but I also know that my intern/resident stays in the hospital long after I've left, and has to deal with those same toxic senior residents for the entire night. If I'm that shielded from the crappy parts of the intern's job, how sheltered do you think most pre-meds are? I think that that's partly why there's such a big disconnect between the pre-med's conception of medicine, and the true picture of it.

 

[diosa428]

I think it's kind of absurd for a bunch of pre-med students to sit around making what seems like a judgement call on a bunch of doctors when you don't know what you're getting into. You think volunteering for 4 hours/week makes you understand what it's like to be a doctor? You're crazy. I'm a medical student on rotations right now and I still can't imagine what it's like to be an intern or resident, following 10x as many patients as I am. Do I still think I'll like medicine? Yes. Do I have classmates who went into medicine for the wrong reasons, who are now realizing this? Yes. So while I agree with the OP's point - try to figure out what you're getting into before you've washed 4 years and $200k down the drain - I think that suggesting that you know more than doctors about their careers, why they chose them, how informed they were when they started medical school, etc, is totally unnecessary.

 

[Meatwad]

Doctors are probably disgruntled for lots of reasons, and few of them are problems with medicine itself, I'd guess. Some things that suck about the field:

1) Length and rigor of education and training: You work harder than most friends in college for 4 years, stress yourself out with the MCAT, and if you are lucky, get a spot right out of college.
Four more years of schooling, which is undoubtedly more difficult academically and more time-consuming than any degree 99% of students have ever dealt with. Now, you are 26 (if you got in right out of undergrad, on average) and you have to go through the stress of trying to get into a residency of your choice. Tack on at least another 3 years, as long as 7 for some specialties. So that puts you at 29-33, which means you've been studying or being abused non-stop for the past 11-15 years.

2) Insurance companies and malpractice: Unfortunately you have to deal with these realities on a daily basis.

3) Declining compensation: or so I've been told. Seems to be a complaint.

4) Work hours: Being on-call, feeling like a slave compared to almost every other profession.

I don't think most doctor's complain about being a physician, or about medicine, as much as the stuff that comes with it, mainly the things outlined above. Doctors in Europe, for example, work less, are paid less, and go to school for only 6 years right out of high school (add a residency on top, which I believe have much more restricted hours). I don't know anything about their malpractice/insurance setup, admittedly.

I'm NOT advocating that America have a European style healthcare system. However, if kids got into medicine expecting shorter hours, less time in school, less money, etc., like they do in Europe, they probably wouldn't complain so much once they become a doctor.

I don't think any pre-med really appreciates what they are getting into. That's just nature. You never have a real appreciation for something until you have a bird's eye view; shadowing will never accomplish this completely, although it may give you a superficial feel for the field. Of course, there's no dissuading a stubborn, hard-working pre-med. This is a good thing, though; medicine in the US continues to get the best and the brightest, most likely because of their naive preconceptions. If they all truly realized how hard everything will be, they probably would turn to other fields.

 

[mshheaddoc]

 

[Jew Alcindor]

Here's what I hate about internship, and why I wish I hadn't done this:

1) I am degraded as a person almost daily by more senior residents and attendings. This is part of the training process, I know, but it takes a toll after a while.

2) There are a proportion of nurses whose lack of skill and caring puts my patients at serious risk on a regular basis.

3) 75% of my job is paperwork.

4) Interactions between departments is universally antagonistic; no one wants to help you, no matter how critical the situation is

5) The standards of professionalism apply only to physicians. Ancillary staff is free to act however they choose, since they are harder to replace than most doctors

6) The 80hr work week never applies when I am doing paperwork; it only applies when I want to scrub into a case or attend didactics

Personally, I could give a crap about malpractice, insurance, administration, or work hours. I just hate the people.

But you'll have to deal with this stuff (or different stuff) in pretty much any high-paying career. People in the other threads were saying they'd rather be a surfing instructor in Maui or whatever, which sounds great until you see the annual salary.

Nobody has any idea what the stresses and demands of a job are until they actually do it. I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a Dr., but most Doctors have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a lawyer, i-banker or whatever else. Compared to law, business or whatever else, how can we be sure the demands of medicine aren't just par for the course?

 

[colbgw02]

So I'm just another resident perusing the pre-allopathic forum for kicks and giggles. Sorry to interupt your black pearl exchange, but...

I think most people don't regret going into medicine because of the work load or the hours. They regret medicine because all of the "traditional" perks of being a physician are going down the toilet. Here's an incomplete list:

1) Declining respect for the profession
2) Declining reimbursements
3) Insurance companies
4) Malpractice
5) Increasing sense of entitlement from patients

I'll work my a$$ off if I know that my patients and the ancillary staff will do what I ask of them and I get a nice little something at the end of each month. The fact is, that's becoming more and more a thing of the past.

 

[smq123]

But you'll have to deal with this stuff (or different stuff) in pretty much any high-paying career. People in the other threads were saying they'd rather be a surfing instructor in Maui or whatever, which sounds great until you see the annual salary.

Nobody has any idea what the stresses and demands of a job are until they actually do it. I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a Dr., but most Doctors have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a lawyer, i-banker or whatever else. Compared to law, business or whatever else, how can we be sure the demands of medicine aren't just par for the course?

Well, you're right - I've never been an i-banker, lawyer, etc. But here are my thoughts:

• Unlike some of the careers that you mentioned, medicine is physically, emotionally, and mentally demanding. There's a lot of worry, because patients really might die. It's mentally demanding, because there is so much problem solving and intricate knowledge involved in the practice of medicine. And it's physically demanding, because you're running around and on your feet a lot. (I scrubbed into my first OR case this past week. I didn't have a chance to eat much before the case started, and so I kept locking my knees so that I wouldn't pass out. By the end of the operation, I couldn't sit down because my knees wouldn't bend again without a fair amount of pain.) I doubt that a lawyer would say the same.
• I-banking and business are very difficult and mentally and physically demanding. However, at least the monetary rewards are generally better and are seen faster than they would be in medicine.
• Running your own business is very tough work, and requires a lot of hours. But at least you are your own boss. This is unlike medicine where you often have someone to answer to. (Hopefully, that someone isn't a douche bag, but you're not always that lucky.) Sometimes you have to "answer" to nurses as well. Some nurses are great but others...hm.

 

[Phoenix.]

I'm not Law2Doc, so I can't make as good of a comparison between law and medicine. I was/am a lawyer, but I'm just applying to med school right now. But I can at least give you an idea of what it's like to be a successful attorney. Since it's relatively hard to get into medical school, let's assume that the person who would have gone to med school decided instead to go to law school. Getting in is nowhere near as tough, so let's assume that they went to a relatively good law school (top 25). Let's also assume that they did fairly well in their first year classes. When a slew of law firms came to their law school campus to interview second year students in the fall, they'd likely get an offer to be a summer associate at a good firm at the end of that year. They'd make mad money that summer, and at most firms, be extended an offer to join the firm after they graduate provided they were sane, normal, and could do the work. They might even slack off their third year of law school knowing they were heading to a very good job after they were done. Provided this law student isn't going to a big NYC firm (which I did do my first three years out), their hours should be pretty reasonable, and they will be pulling in a pretty good salary as a first year attorney, probably around $150,000. And if they billed more than 2100 hours, they'll probably get a nice bonus. There might be a jerky or demanding partner or so, and there may be some long hours or weekend work depending on what type of law they practice (corporate or litigation probably) or the firm they chose to work for, but on the whole they knew what to expect when they chose that firm/department. If they want more money and more hours, they'll switch to a firm known for those things. Or if they want easier hours and a better lifestyle, they may switch to a lighter department (trusts & estates, intellectual property, employee benefits, etc.) or take a slight pay cut to switch to a "nicer" known "lifestyle" firm. (They won't have to worry about insurance or collecting bills for services, but they may have to drum up a book of business if they want to make equity partner at a firm instead of just an income partner. Different regions of the country work in different ways, but generally you'd make partner around 6-8 years of practicing at a firm.)

BUT that person may also find that although they have a very nice lifestyle and a great job, law simply isn't fulfilling and fails to hold any significant meaning in their eyes. In fact, they feel like they're overpaid and it's a joke. They lose respect for their own career and are shocked when others seem to hold it in some esteem. Years go by, and they can't imagine feeling more fungible, or their life more meaningless when they view the big picture. Looking back on their life, will they actually feel that they have done something that they're proud of and will respect? Ok, so perhaps that's just me. I do know lawyers who love the job, but I think that they are a very specific type of person and/or have a specific focus or goal. I could expound on those people if anyone is actually curious if they'd be a better fit at law.

Anyway, med school and being a practicing resident/doctor sounds grueling. I just wanted to share my opinion of what a successful legal career entails for a comparison. I believe that the grass is always greener, and that everything isn't for everybody. To each their own. Unfortunately, I also believe that none of us can truly know if medicine is their "calling" until they're in the thick of things. But I do fervently hope that there is a specialty with my name on it somewhere at the end of the rainbow....

 

[Jew Alcindor]

[*]Running your own business is very tough work, and requires a lot of hours. But at least you are your own boss. This is unlike medicine where you often have someone to answer to. (Hopefully, that someone isn't a douche bag, but you're not always that lucky.) Sometimes you have to "answer" to nurses as well. Some nurses are great but others...hm.[/LIST]

I can't comment on the rest of your points, but I'd like to say that this isn't always the case. I work for a guy who owns his own business, and believe me that he has to answer to plenty of people. His clients, for a start, when they wonder why loads of gravel are dissapearing, and his employees, when there are 20 of them in the office asking in broken English where there paychecks are, why they can't get any work and who's gonna foot the bill for their truck repairs.

 

[smq123]

I can't comment on the rest of your points, but I'd like to say that this isn't always the case. I work for a guy who owns his own business, and believe me that he has to answer to plenty of people. His clients, for a start, when they wonder why loads of gravel are dissapearing, and his employees, when there are 20 of them in the office asking in broken English where there paychecks are, why they can't get any work and who's gonna foot the bill for their truck repairs.

Fair enough. But he's still the boss. And, if people give him a hard time, he has SOME room to stand up for himself. And he has something to show for his hard work - he can look around and look at the business that he OWNS. That's got to be very rewarding. That's unfortunately NOT always the case in medicine.

One of my interns told me this story:
Attending: And what's the risk for adverse effect X after procedure Y?
Intern: Um...0.001
Attending: Nope, you're incorrect. It's 1 out of 1000. Are you sure that you're doing enough reading at night?

(And, no, my intern wasn't stupid enough to correct the attending.)

One of my classmates:
Attending: What innervates the trapezius?
MS3: Cranial nerve 11.
Attending: (Tone of voice clearly shows his contempt for my classmate's "lack" of knowledge) Um..no...it's the spinal accessory nerve. Something to keep in mind.

Some days, you wonder just how bad it really would be to correct your attending.... (In case you're wondering - it would be a bad idea, so don't do it.)

I believe that the grass is always greener, and that everything isn't for everybody. To each their own. Unfortunately, I also believe that none of us can truly know if medicine is their "calling" until they're in the thick of things. But I do fervently hope that there is a specialty with my name on it somewhere at the end of the rainbow....

I'm not telling anybody "Don't even dream about going into medicine because you'll definitely regret it." What I AM telling all of you is that - when people try and vent about the dark side of medicine, LISTEN to what they're saying. Think about it, and try and think if you could handle facing that kind of $h!t day after day.

If you still think medicine would be worth it - go ahead. But don't ignore or belittle other people's experiences as interns and residents, just to keep your bubble intact. We're not trying to keep you out of medicine, but we ARE trying to make you see the reality. If you can accept that reality and still want to be a doctor - fantastic! But don't downplay or ignore the experiences of those who have already been through it.

 

[Meatwad]

I-banking and business are very difficult and mentally and physically demanding. However, at least the monetary rewards are generally better and are seen faster than they would be in medicine.

I think you are definitely off here; in general, a doctor will make more money than an i-banker. The average might be really high for i-banking, but it's very skewed because of the elite ones that are making $25M a year. From what I read a couple of years ago, making the serious cheddar as an i-banker requires an ivy-league education and some connections (most likely because of your ivy leagues networking system). It's probably harder to get into Harvard business school or Wharton than it is to a "lower-tiered," med school.

Plus, someone in here hit on a good point; most professions (not jobs) are probably really stressful. I could imagine being a venture capitalist who is responsible for millions of dollars is downing meds for his blood pressure and ulcers constantly, ditto for Wall Street traders and i-bankers. You guys ever watch that Jim Cramer (sp?) guy? He's pretty notorious for being horrific to work for, maybe he was an attending in another life.

Medicine definitely doesn't have the monopoly on suffering, but it doesn't make said suffering any less painful and unnecessary.

 

[leftmid]

You guys ever watch that Jim Cramer (sp?) guy?

Him?

 

[Meatwad]

Him?

The man himself. Seriously, it's like blood is going to spurt out of his eye at any moment.

 

[Arc]

Look at it this way, the more money that there is to be made in a professioon, the harder it is to even make it in the profession.
And does the declining wages, and the ****ty respect that you get as a doctor scare me me away from the profession? Not at all. And I dont know about you guys, but the way I see things is that I like making money, not working, and I'm jsut piocking a profession the I know I can live with for the rest of my life.

 

[8744]

I've been searching this board and reading all the threads on the subject and it seems like the majority would not do it over again. It seems to all boil down to medicine being a degrading profession.

I'm willing to listen; what's a better career?

United States Marine. I mean, if money doesn't matter.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not Law2Doc, so I can't make as good of a comparison between law and medicine. I was/am a lawyer, but I'm just applying to med school right now. But I can at least give you an idea of what it's like to be a successful attorney. Since it's relatively hard to get into medical school, let's assume that the person who would have gone to med school decided instead to go to law school. Getting in is nowhere near as tough, so let's assume that they went to a relatively good law school (top 25). Let's also assume that they did fairly well in their first year classes. When a slew of law firms came to their law school campus to interview second year students in the fall, they'd likely get an offer to be a summer associate at a good firm at the end of that year. They'd make mad money that summer, and at most firms, be extended an offer to join the firm after they graduate provided they were sane, normal, and could do the work. They might even slack off their third year of law school knowing they were heading to a very good job after they were done. Provided this law student isn't going to a big NYC firm (which I did do my first three years out), their hours should be pretty reasonable, and they will be pulling in a pretty good salary as a first year attorney, probably around $150,000. And if they billed more than 2100 hours, they'll probably get a nice bonus. There might be a jerky or demanding partner or so, and there may be some long hours or weekend work depending on what type of law they practice (corporate or litigation probably) or the firm they chose to work for, but on the whole they knew what to expect when they chose that firm/department. If they want more money and more hours, they'll switch to a firm known for those things. Or if they want easier hours and a better lifestyle, they may switch to a lighter department (trusts & estates, intellectual property, employee benefits, etc.) or take a slight pay cut to switch to a "nicer" known "lifestyle" firm. (They won't have to worry about insurance or collecting bills for services, but they may have to drum up a book of business if they want to make equity partner at a firm instead of just an income partner. Different regions of the country work in different ways, but generally you'd make partner around 6-8 years of practicing at a firm.)

BUT that person may also find that although they have a very nice lifestyle and a great job, law simply isn't fulfilling and fails to hold any significant meaning in their eyes. In fact, they feel like they're overpaid and it's a joke. They lose respect for their own career and are shocked when others seem to hold it in some esteem. Years go by, and they can't imagine feeling more fungible, or their life more meaningless when they view the big picture. Looking back on their life, will they actually feel that they have done something that they're proud of and will respect? Ok, so perhaps that's just me. I do know lawyers who love the job, but I think that they are a very specific type of person and/or have a specific focus or goal. I could expound on those people if anyone is actually curious if they'd be a better fit at law.

Anyway, med school and being a practicing resident/doctor sounds grueling. I just wanted to share my opinion of what a successful legal career entails for a comparison. I believe that the grass is always greener, and that everything isn't for everybody. To each their own. Unfortunately, I also believe that none of us can truly know if medicine is their "calling" until they're in the thick of things. But I do fervently hope that there is a specialty with my name on it somewhere at the end of the rainbow....

I largely agree with this post -- particularly the overpaid part. Every lawyer has moments where they are amused that they get paid so much for what they do. You often spend the day on the phone and reading/drafting, maybe go to a meeting or two where they feed you. No heavy lifting, you never get blood on your clothes, never kill anybody, never get needlestuck -- just papercuts (and lots of them). You, of course, aren't really overpaid because you are adding value -- often making or saving people far more than they are paying you -- offering a service for which the market is willing to pay a couple hundred dollars an hour, so you get into the "time is money" mentality and have to dutifully keep track of every 5 minute block of time you spent doing something you can bill for, and try to log as many billable hours (which are unfortunately 25% fewer hours than you are in the office) a year.

Like medicine it is really a job about helping people -- they come to your office because they have a problem, and you try and fix it. The clients are usually nice and you never have to deal with their family dynamics (unless you do divorce or wills) and it's not your concern if they smoke, drink, etc. So for some, it's a great job with a lot of the perqs and without a lot of the aggravations of medicine. For others it gets old fast. I suspect every job has its plusses or minuses. But as I said before it is much easier to pay off your debt and move on to something else in careers other than medicine thanks to the longer schooling and higher training. So you need to be more sure on that path than on others.

 

[riceman04]

Fair enough. But he's still the boss. And, if people give him a hard time, he has SOME room to stand up for himself. And he has something to show for his hard work - he can look around and look at the business that he OWNS. That's got to be very rewarding. That's unfortunately NOT always the case in medicine.

One of my interns told me this story:
Attending: And what's the risk for adverse effect X after procedure Y?
Intern: Um...0.001
Attending: Nope, you're incorrect. It's 1 out of 1000. Are you sure that you're doing enough reading at night?

(And, no, my intern wasn't stupid enough to correct the attending.)

One of my classmates:
Attending: What innervates the trapezius?
MS3: Cranial nerve 11.
Attending: (Tone of voice clearly shows his contempt for my classmate's "lack" of knowledge) Um..no...it's the spinal accessory nerve. Something to keep in mind.

Some days, you wonder just how bad it really would be to correct your attending.... (In case you're wondering - it would be a bad idea, so don't do it.)



I'm not telling anybody "Don't even dream about going into medicine because you'll definitely regret it." What I AM telling all of you is that - when people try and vent about the dark side of medicine, LISTEN to what they're saying. Think about it, and try and think if you could handle facing that kind of $h!t day after day.

If you still think medicine would be worth it - go ahead. But don't ignore or belittle other people's experiences as interns and residents, just to keep your bubble intact. We're not trying to keep you out of medicine, but we ARE trying to make you see the reality. If you can accept that reality and still want to be a doctor - fantastic! But don't downplay or ignore the experiences of those who have already been through it.

It sucks that your attendings seem too full of themselves to admit a mistake...hmm maybe that is why my father thinks he is always right...and will never admit when he has f'ed up

I guess I have been lucky in my interactions with attendings (with residents and med students present)...they have all seemed really nice

I shadowed an orthopod res (and his attending), and took a clin research in emergency med class here at Penn...all the attendings in the ER seemed really chill...and they never belittled the residents or med students...at least while I was around.

 

[smq123]

It sucks that your attendings seem too full of themselves to admit a mistake...hmm maybe that is why my father thinks he is always right...and will never admit when he has f'ed up

I guess I have been lucky in my interactions with attendings (with residents and med students present)...they have all seemed really nice

I shadowed an orthopod res (and his attending), and took a clin research in emergency med class here at Penn...all the attendings in the ER seemed really chill...and they never belittled the residents or med students...at least while I was around.

Many of the attendings that I work with ARE nice. But it's the few that aren't that we talk about the most. And they're the ones that don't invite shadowing, so you don't see them until you're forced to work with them.

 

[leftmid]

The man himself. Seriously, it's like blood is going to spurt out of his eye at any moment.

I've watched him once. He fits your description well. I am curious to know if anyone else knows this guy. Is he more or less in the field of IB? Have you ever met any doctor or premed who looks like him?

 

[Jew Alcindor]

I've watched him once. He fits your description well. I am curious to know if anyone else knows this guy. Is he more or less in the field of IB? Have you ever met any doctor or premed who looks like him?

I read his book. He worked for Goldman Sachs for awhile then started his own hedge fund. He had kind of an odd background; he went to Harvard, was a reporter for awhile, then went to Harvard Law School, then started working at Goldman.

He made i-banking sound pretty intense; apparently one time (when he was a trainee) he was at some pointless training meeting and asked permission to go to his sister's wedding (which was in a couple of hours). They all acted like he was a total loser for even asking.

 

[NonTradMed]

I knew a radiologist resident who complained about his job constantly and talked about how if he could do it over again, he'd do OMFS (or at least dentistry because all they do is 'drill and fill'). He was extremely cynical about medicine and told me he was trying to give people like me (med students) a better view of medicine and to STEER AWAY FROM PRIMARY CARE.

I finally decided to take everything he said with a grain of salt when he kept on stressing to me the importance of matching into derm or anesthesiology. He believed any US MD grad can at least get into anesthesiology (but I guess anyone matching into rad would say that ).

Anyway, I finally told him he didn't need to tell me the crap that his job is because, like him, I also worked in a job filled with tons of useless paperwork, long hours of overtime, and weekends and evening overtime (in corporate America). I think that gave him pause because he's never had a real job until his first day of residency.

While I can see that having residency as your first real job would be akin to having your first sexual experience be at the hands of a rapist (i.e it would make anyone feel jaded about the entire experience here on out), I think that is what contributes to physician disgruntlement.

This resident did not realize how menial jobs were in general.

The funny thing was, during the last conversation I had with him, I got fed up with him telling me to not 'glamorize medicine' and said that I would never do so since I already know what its' like to have a job. I know the work can be meaningless, the bosses can be overbearing, and the overtime can be annoying. I told him my standards for medicine is much lowered since I know jobs in general are "not to be enjoyed on a daily basis". I broke it down to 10% really hating it, 10% really liking it, and the rest just hanging in there for the paycheck kind of mentality.

Do you know what he said? He told me that I really shouldn't have such low standards for medicine, because the work we do was NOT MENIAL. That even though most people's job were fairly useless, medicine was a great career in terms of making a difference and that, given the high cost of medical career, we should have higher standards of enjoyment for the career than most other jobs! He said I should love medicine, and that he LOVES MEDICINE. In fact, despite having worked for a month without a day off and being awake (at that point) for over 24 hours, he still loved his job (and told me so)! I think my cynicalism at the work place out-cynicaled him and he actually started sprouting all the good stuff that his job gave him and how he absolutely loved his job and would not want to "downgrade" to any other profession.

I was baffled by this turnabout.

But after some thoughts, I realized that perhaps the problem is that most premeds and medical students still hold a glamourized view of their career (as anyone who has never worked will do so), and that given medicine's high cost, and exhaustive training, it magnifies the disillusionment for most premeds once they get into residency and become real doctors.

Despite this guy's constant complaint about medicine, he doesn't find it worse than any other job. In fact, he finds it much better than most jobs. He just doesn't want people to like it for more than its worth. And so I conclude that, as a nontraditional medical student, I DO have a more realistic view of medicine than most....mostly because I have a realistic view of what having a job entails.

I know it's not the BS great stuff that my preceptors will make it out to be. I know that there will be lots of paperwork (yes, EVERYONE gets to do mindless paperwork, why do physician complain like they are the only ones? I spend a whole day doing nothing but paperwork at a time and my job was to write software). I also know about how annoying it is to have my vacation ruined by a boss (my mother came visiting and I was going to take two days off plus the weekends, my boss told me I had to come in on the weekends to work but I can still take the two days off but I'd have to use my vacation days...nice of him, huh?). The day in and day out was mind numbing. The fear of outsourcing was palplable at times....and so I weighed the good and the bad associated with medicine as compared to my previous job, and I think I still came out with a better deal.

Medicine isn't for everyone. I actually think, given the high cost of the training, most premeds should be expected to work for a year or two before deciding on such an investment. After all, this is your entire life we are talking about.