Help- forensics?

[mcatqueen]

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[comp1]

Okay, had to look up the DOH acronym. I'm guessing it's what the medical board in your state is called? It's usually pretty serious if your program director is reporting you to a medical board (vindictive or not). However, I can't tell if it is actually serious here. If there are medical board actions pending against you, you need a different lawyer. Your lawyer shouldn't be expecting you to figure this out on your own. You need a medical malpractice attorney who will find expert witnesses on their own. This is not something a respondent to a medical board claim does themselves. That said, your overall post is extraordinarily vague, even when considering a need for anonymity. I don't know if there's actually anything pending against you or if the PD just said something mean. If the PD just said something mean (true or not), you may indeed not be able to do anything about that.

 

[Merovinge]

Yes, the PD lied to the Department of Health/ medical board, resulting in a fraudulent case pending against me. The medical license lawyer told me I can't be the one to say the PD is lying and someone else has to say it.

You need an attorney that does this work fulltime and has a list of docs to contact to assist you. This is not the type of problem to be using counsel that is having you try to find a doctor on an internet forum. Best of luck.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Hi all. I am wondering if anyone can help at all. I had a vindictive PD lie about me to the DOH. It is incredibly obvious to anyone in psychiatry if they read the report that the PD lied, but I am needing to find someone to help call it out to the DOH. Lawyer told me I can't just say the PD is lying and that someone else has to say it. I don't know if I need a forensic psychiatrist or what. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you so much in advance.

Wow that is extremely intense. I think ultimately wouldnt the biggest thing be evidence/proof? Otherwise its just he said/she said. Im not sure what youre being accused of exactly, its rare for a PD to report a resident to a medical board, i would think in most cases since residency is about learning, the PD would try to provide the resident with education. Its hard to know what you need since we dont know the full extent of whats happening and obviously you cant post that publicly on here for everyone to see.

 

[Celexa]

You need an attorney that does this work fulltime and has a list of docs to contact to assist you. This is not the type of problem to be using counsel that is having you try to find a doctor on an internet forum. Best of luck.

Yeah. Your attorney telling you YOU need to find experts screams 'I've never handled a case remotely resembling this in my life'. You need someone who has done this before. Or at minimum the junior partner of someone who has.

 

[TexasPhysician]

It’s hard to advise without context. A forensic psych may be helpful. In my experience with medical boards, they want documented proof of issues and/or resolutions. Opinions like “he/she is bad” are ignored.

 

[comp1]

If that was literally what was written to a medical board...I can't imagine them caring. I don't know what a "case" would even involve regarding this. If programs filed a complaint with a medical board every time a resident didn't answer a page...that's all the medical boards would ever deal with. As described, this is an internal thing to your residency or fellowship program that should be addressed internally. Ultimately, you're in a training program. The attendings are responsible for what you do. If you aren't meeting the program's expectations, then they put you on probation and if things still don't improve, they separate you from the program following all ACGME regulations to do so. A medical board isn't GENERALLY involved unless you're sleeping with patients or doing something grossly egregious that is also likely criminal. No wonder your attorney is confused. If you're describing it accurately, this is not something reported to a medical board and if reported, is ignored. Since apparently it's not being ignored by the medical board, I have to assume there's some sort of inaccuracy or glossing over the particulars.

 

[mistafab]

To provide a little context, they tried to write their report about me as if our clinic is set up family medicine style, with separate exam rooms and separate offices, to make things look entirely different.
They said they could't find me when expected to see patients (implying that there is a common work area)...Even though I was in my office on the phone. Like where in the world else would I be other than in my personal office, which is where I am regardless whether I am seeing my patients on my schedule or dealing with paperwork, notes, phone calls, etc.

And my office was the same spot the entire year. It hadn't changed and they knew where my office was.
So either the PD has cognitive issues or is a flat out liar...which I believe the second to be the case.

I am not giving legal advice.

But from a residency perspective, I’d say this could easily be a soft slap on the wrist. This blowing up to a board report is quite unusual.

I would caution you from making this any worse for yourself in any way, shape, or form - if you can get through the rest of your training unscathed.

 

[splik]

I am a forensic psychiatrist and consultant to the medical board. I'm not seeing any forensic issue here. The only way a forensic opinion would be helpful is if you had a fitness for duty evaluation. This would only be indicated if there was some allegation that you had a personality disorder, substance use disorder, or other mental disorder that was impacting your professional conduct or ability to practice medicine.

In terms of lying, you could submit to a polygraph regarding the allegations at hand and submit that to the medical board. Some physicians do that. There are of course various issues with polygraphs but they are still used.

In terms of discrediting the PD's allegations, you would either need support from other attendings at your program or that of another PD. It is unusual for other PDs to serve as expert witnesses for the resident, they usually serve as defense experts for other PDs. Very hard to compete with that. Many physicians do submit supporting letters to the medical board regarding their professionalism and clinical competence.

My guess is that your attorney is not suggesting you find someone to say they are lying, but trying to tell you that it is your word against theirs and thus not an avenue to pursue.

You can DM me w/ further info if you want to discuss further and I will try to respond.

 

[Bartelby]

It sounds like you say you were in your office and your PD says you were nowhere to be found. That isn't really a question a forensic psychiatrist is qualified to resolve. Forensic psychiatrists offer opinions and education about mental illness and how it impacts on a particular case. A question such as "was mcatqueen in their office on the following dates" is up to the board (or court) to decide.

Broadly speaking I agree with others, the attorney (not you) should generally be choosing, reaching out to, and retaining any experts when they are needed.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

It sounds like you say you were in your office and your PD says you were nowhere to be found. That isn't really a question a forensic psychiatrist is qualified to resolve. Forensic psychiatrists offer opinions and education about mental illness and how it impacts on a particular case. A question such as "was mcatqueen in their office on the following dates" is up to the board (or court) to decide.

Broadly speaking I agree with others, the attorney (not you) should generally be choosing, reaching out to, and retaining any experts when they are needed.

Yeah, the location should actually be pretty easy to verify, if the OP were logged into the EHR or has Google maps location history that can verify having been in the building.

I had something vaguely similar, but it never advanced this far. I was on call in the Psych ED and there were no patients to be seen. The director of the ED called my program director to complain that I was reading (the assigned readings for didactics) when patients were waiting. I just showed in the EHR that literally no patients were waiting, that the cpep director was just starting ****.

They ended up firing the cpep director, who had to be escorted out in handcuffs, for similar psychotic accusations of residents and attendings. My program ended up giving me an award for efficient use of down time.

 

[mcatqueen]

Yeah, the location should actually be pretty easy to verify, if the OP were logged into the EHR or has Google maps location history that can verify having been in the building.

I had something vaguely similar, but it never advanced this far. I was on call in the Psych ED and there were no patients to be seen. The director of the ED called my program director to complain that I was reading (the assigned readings for didactics) when patients were waiting. I just showed in the EHR that literally no patients were waiting, that the cpep director was just starting ****.

They ended up firing the cpep director, who had to be escorted out in handcuffs, for similar psychotic accusations of residents and attendings. My program ended up giving me an award for efficient use of down time.

That is a good idea. I was logged into my desktop, so I'll have to reach out to tech to see if they have anything that can show that. All our patients are individually assigned to us in Epic. I actually had none on my schedule that morning, so was dealing with refills, myChart messages, etc and had made a phone call too.

We also go to the waiting area when our patients arrive and bring them to our individual offices. There isn't a common shared workspace, so we are always in our individual offices regardless.

That is so awful that you dealt with similar nonsense too, but also thankful for you that they listened to you and ultimately supported you.

 

[Stagg737]

Except they are investigating it...It is so utterly ridiculous. PD is vindictive and no longer in the program because of them.

The PD is quite unusual is the problem...They fired me, then went out of their way to lie and file a false report. Truly another level of vindictiveness

This combination of events is...bizarre...

So the PD fired you then filed a board complaint against you but is no longer the PD of the program because the board determined they couldn't be? Can a state board actually remove a PD from a program? Or do you only mean you're no longer in the program because of the PD?

 

[brainmedicine]

Something is missing here. The story doesn’t add up

 

[psych_0]

Something is missing here. The story doesn’t add up

Quite obviously.

Are we all expected to believe a medical board complaint was filed against you because a vindictive PD couldn't find you in your office on a clinic day? Huh? What does the board violation even say, "I looked for this resident all day but couldn't find them" ......or "This resident did not show up for clinic duty on multiple days without letting any members of our team know."

Then if that wasn't ridiculous enough, we now also have to believe that you consulted with a lawyer who told you to go find someone to accuse the PD of lying? Presumably, you would have asked your co-residents to help with this. Or are they all in on this elaborate plan to ruin your medical career too?

I'm sorry, but you're asking us to believe that someone hired on as program director is willing to risk their career and LIE about a resident who they "could not find in clinic?" This reads like a troll post.

What's that Biden quote, "Come on, man...."

 

[Atreides]

I'm sorry, but you're asking us to believe that someone hired on as program director is willing to risk their career and LIE about a resident who they "could not find in clinic?" This reads like a troll post.

While I agree with you that this post doesn't all add up, I also wouldn't put it past a narcissistic PD to lie about a resident they dislike even at risk to their own career. I dealt with a PD who actively tried to sabotage my career and flat out lied multiple times with no discernible benefit to himself. Thankfully I kept meticulous records, CC'ed myself on an external email account to create a paper trail that couldn't be deleted, and then brought everything to the attention of the ombudsman. He was removed (there were other factors as well) and there was minimal lasting damage to me but I could easily see it having cost me dearly if I hadn't taken all these steps as soon as I got a whiff of how he was trying to portray me. There were allegations that would have come down to "he said-he said" if I hadn't been creating a paper trail the whole time. I legit wondered if I was being overly paranoid when I started documenting everything but it paid off when the time came. So I empathize with OP who may well be dealing with a vindictive PD.

 

[mcatqueen]

Quite obviously.

Are we all expected to believe a medical board complaint was filed against you because a vindictive PD couldn't find you in your office on a clinic day? Huh? What does the board violation even say, "I looked for this resident all day but couldn't find them" ......or "This resident did not show up for clinic duty on multiple days without letting any members of our team know."

Then if that wasn't ridiculous enough, we now also have to believe that you consulted with a lawyer who told you to go find someone to accuse the PD of lying? Presumably, you would have asked your co-residents to help with this. Or are they all in on this elaborate plan to ruin your medical career too?

I'm sorry, but you're asking us to believe that someone hired on as program director is willing to risk their career and LIE about a resident who they "could not find in clinic?" This reads like a troll post.

What's that Biden quote, "Come on, man...."

I am not able to talk to anyone there, plus I think they'd be at risk of retaliation too.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This can be a very difficult situation to negotiate. Residency programs have a responsibility to assess resident performance and competence, and medical boards recognize this and will often have great deference to them. If a residency program tells a BoM that a resident is dangerous / has a serious issue, they are likely to consider that very strongly.

Still, I worry that we are not hearing all of the relevant details here. Even if a resident did not show up to work one day, it would be unlikely that a program would fire them over it. Details matter, so it is possible, but would need to be egregious enough.

Did you have "issues" with the PD/Program outside of this? Other problems, concerns, etc?

 

[whopper]

Agree the lack of context makes this difficult.

Further, as mentioned above, if the lawyer doesn't know to hire a medical expert, and you're doing it on your own this begs the question does the lawyer know what he or she is doing?

I've seen power-mad PDs, but that this guy sent this to the DOH and didn't keep it within the institution is such a high magnitude of response. IF a residency gets rid of a resident they don't have to involve the medical board. There's too many variable possibilities to comment without context. Just a few-this PD is overreacting, the PD really thinks this resident is a threat as a physician, the resident in question truly is a threat, and so many others.

This is certainly a bad spot for the resident in question, but we don't know if this resident deserves to be in trouble. If the PD lied, and it's "obvious," then this PD is liable for punishment. You cannot lie to the medical board, and doing such can lead to consequences.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

There is a personality conflict and the PD is very vindictive. I'm a bit more outspoken on things, which has made me a target too.

like politics, religion, stuff like that or what?

I dont understand how it would be a medical board complaint that someone couldnt find you in their office. Like how would they would even investigate that? Im just confused. I believe you that people can be vindictive, but to fire you and then report you to the medical board is so extreme. That was his only complaint?

 

[mcatqueen]

Proper patient care, ethics, etc.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I dont understand how it would be a medical board complaint that someone couldnt find you in their office. Like how would they would even investigate that? Im just confused. I believe you that people can be vindictive, but to fire you and then report you to the medical board is so extreme.

They won’t investigate that. It will be dropped.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Proper patient care, ethics, etc.

i would recommend just being careful with being too opinionated in work settings, often people can have different views which can cause conflict

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

But they opened an investigation already...

they're required to "open an investigation" for every complaint. They need to investigate it until they can see it has no merit. What that person was saying is that they will drop it without really investigating it, most likely. Like, they'll look into it cursorily, determine that your program already punished you a lot, and likely determine that was enough punishment, then drop it without investigating further.

 

[TexasPhysician]

But they opened an investigation already...

Then there is more to it, or you are overthinking it. I am an investigator for a state board. Every complaint results in an inquiry. Physicians submit a response. The response could be “my PD never called or looked in my office. Here are recent phone records”. You thus provided proof. The PD provided random complaints without proof in this example. I’d prompt an immediate letter saying no investigation will be started and no record will be held against you based on limited details. We aren’t detectives. We aren’t going to come and interview your peers or other faculty to get to the bottom of this. This is all hypothetical as I don’t know the case. Going further than that likely means the complaint is more substantial like providing details of patient harm.