(WAMC) What are my chances for matching into Dermatology?

[asmallchild]

End of third year at lower tiered US MD school.

Honored all courses except anatomy and physiology. 263 on step 1. Have honored all third year clinical clerkships with high 90's on all the NBME shelfs. Didn't make junior AOA but am anticipating making senior AOA.

The question I have is that until about 3 months ago I thought I wanted to do orthopedic surgery. I have a good amount of ortho research and ortho related leadership positions but I don't have any derm extracurriculars. I'm working on starting up 1-2 derm research projects now. What do you think my chances are of matching into derm without showing a lot of interest in the field during my first few years of medical school? I know that academically I'm a strong candidate but my school doesn't have a great track record with matching into derm and I'm afraid that I won't have shown enough interest in the field before I apply this fall.

Any responses or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

That shouldn't be an issue. I would be as productive as you can in research starting now and during your derm rotations and you should be in good shape. Early interest in the field is always helpful but it means little without strong performances pre-clinically and clinically. Get as much research in as you can and apply broadly and you should have little issues matching. (You may also want a good explanation as to why you are transitioning from ortho to derm. You would be surprised, it's more common than you think)

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[Dral]

You would be surprised, it's more common than you think)

I was to the point of talking to the head of Ortho at my school before I eventually switched.

I think there is some type of visual/procedural connection there.

 

[Slack3r]

I was to the point of talking to the head of Ortho at my school before I eventually switched.

I think there is some type of visual/procedural connection there.

Healthy/thankful patients, good outcomes (usually), and procedural. Although most people will just accuse you of chasing $$.

 

[PatsyStone]

I am glad things worked out for Dral, and I appreciate that they have been willing to share their experience with potential applicants.

That being said, I know a student at my school who was interested in ortho until the end of his third year, had nearly identical stats (260+, all honors, senior AOA), and only got four interviews. His only red flag was that he was late to the derm game, and he did a poor job of selling his conversion. I am not trying to freak you out, but you need to make sure that you have a good story. If you can, do a case report and do your best to dig yourself into the derm world.

 

[BB88921]

I am glad things worked out for Dral, and I appreciate that they have been willing to share their experience with potential applicants.

That being said, I know a student at my school who was interested in ortho until the end of his third year, had nearly identical stats (260+, all honors, senior AOA), and only got four interviews. His only red flag was that he was late to the derm game, and he did a poor job of selling his conversion. I am not trying to freak you out, but you need to make sure that you have a good story. If you can, do a case report and do your best to dig yourself into the derm world.

Thanks for the info. Is there anything else (other than trying to get more research) I should be doing? I'm planning on doing three away rotations starting in August (two of them have already been scheduled through VSAS).

I also have a question about LOR. I will get one from the dermatologist I am working on research with now. I will also get one from my first two away rotations hopefully. As for non-derm letters, I can get a great letter from Peds, Family, OB/GYN, and IM. Which one of these will derm residencies care the most about? I think all four of those would write me great letters (the directors have told me they would).

Thanks!

 

[PatsyStone]

Thanks for the info. Is there anything else (other than trying to get more research) I should be doing? I'm planning on doing three away rotations starting in August (two of them have already been scheduled through VSAS).

I also have a question about LOR. I will get one from the dermatologist I am working on research with now. I will also get one from my first two away rotations hopefully. As for non-derm letters, I can get a great letter from Peds, Family, OB/GYN, and IM. Which one of these will derm residencies care the most about? I think all four of those would write me great letters (the directors have told me they would).

Thanks!

You should get a letter from the chair of your home department (unless the attending you are doing research with is the chair). Non-derm letters carry less weight: derm is a small field, so names are huge. When you do aways, ask the residents who you should get a letter from (most residents read the applications of interviewing students, so they've had an opportunity to learn who in the department does and does not write good letters). It's also helpful to let the attending know you want a letter before the end of the rotation so that they will have time to evaluate your work in clinic.

I'm not sure what else you should do, but make sure you have a good story. If you were originally interested in psych but decided your found psych-derm interesting, or if your were interested in rheum/heme-onc/allergy and decided you were interested in med-derm, or if you were interested in OB/GYN but found mucosal/labial derm interesting, then you would have an easy story. However, I agree with @Slack3r that there aren't a lot of similarities between derm and ortho, so make sure you can articulate your reasoning clearly and effectively.

 

[Dral]

My PS focus was about what inspired me to make the switch. Thus a large part of my app explained my impetus.

 

[BellaDerma]

Hi! So I can't believe it's finally time to ask for my chances...

First of all I'm an MS3 who just got my Step 1 scores back about a week ago. I've wanted to do derm since high school (so more than ten years now). I've shadowed derms since high school through college and even a little during first year.

Step 1: 240
Step 2: not taken yet
School: state school in mid-West
Class rank: definitely at least top 10%, if not, top 5%
Pre-clinicals: all honors
Clinicals: have only finished FM so far, and honored that
Extracurriculars: plenty of those, including volunteer work, mission trips, leadership positions, etc.
AOA: Possibly? It depends on how my school does it. Grades-wise I'm good, but step 1-score wise, I could be borderline
Research: Here's where I'm really lacking--2 posters (both in derm), a textbook chapter, zero pubs.

I know I need to amp up my research, but the derm I did research with is sort of hard to keep in touch with (she'll respond to emails something like a month to two months later), and there aren't a ton of derm research opportunities around the area I go to school in. Any advice, especially with regards to research, would help. What I want to know is, with the current charting outcomes saying that 247 is the average matched student score and 239 (which I'm only one point from) is the average for unmatched students, and with the current status of my research, should I keep pursuing derm or should I focus on a second specialty? Thanks in advance.

 

[FIREitUP]

Hi! So I can't believe it's finally time to ask for my chances...

First of all I'm an MS3 who just got my Step 1 scores back about a week ago. I've wanted to do derm since high school (so more than ten years now). I've shadowed derms since high school through college and even a little during first year.

Step 1: 240
Step 2: not taken yet
School: state school in mid-West
Class rank: definitely at least top 10%, if not, top 5%
Pre-clinicals: all honors
Clinicals: have only finished FM so far, and honored that
Extracurriculars: plenty of those, including volunteer work, mission trips, leadership positions, etc.
AOA: Possibly? It depends on how my school does it. Grades-wise I'm good, but step 1-score wise, I could be borderline
Research: Here's where I'm really lacking--2 posters (both in derm), a textbook chapter, zero pubs.

I know I need to amp up my research, but the derm I did research with is sort of hard to keep in touch with (she'll respond to emails something like a month to two months later), and there aren't a ton of derm research opportunities around the area I go to school in. Any advice, especially with regards to research, would help. What I want to know is, with the current charting outcomes saying that 247 is the average matched student score and 239 (which I'm only one point from) is the average for unmatched students, and with the current status of my research, should I keep pursuing derm or should I focus on a second specialty? Thanks in advance.

Did you just start MS3? If so, I think you should be okay if you're able to get a couple review article/case reports done while on rotations to buff up your research (and get good Derm letters).

 

[BellaDerma]

Did you just start MS3? If so, I think you should be okay if you're able to get a couple review article/case reports done while on rotations to buff up your research (and get good Derm letters).

Thanks for the reply. I did just start MS3, so I know I have time to do research, the problem is finding opportunities around my area since we don't have a home derm program, and frankly, we just don't have enough derms in the area of my med school for me to shadow enough of to get good letters.

 

[PatsyStone]

Thanks for the reply. I did just start MS3, so I know I have time to do research, the problem is finding opportunities around my area since we don't have a home derm program, and frankly, we just don't have enough derms in the area of my med school for me to shadow enough of to get good letters.

If you want to, you could do a research year: it would give you an opportunity to finish existing projects, start new projects, and make connections that lead to at least one solid LOR.

 

[BellaDerma]

If you want to, you could do a research year: it would give you an opportunity to finish existing projects, start new projects, and make connections that lead to at least one solid LOR.

Thanks for the advice. I've seriously considered this possibility, but I'm trying to keep it as a last resort if I feel like I really don't have the research by the end of this year.

 

[FIREitUP]

Thanks for the reply. I did just start MS3, so I know I have time to do research, the problem is finding opportunities around my area since we don't have a home derm program, and frankly, we just don't have enough derms in the area of my med school for me to shadow enough of to get good letters.

email big derms and ask them if they have any case reports or review articles to be written up, you don't need to be physically present and it doesn't have to be in your area. Then you can schedule time to rotate at their institution as a fourth year to get a letter.

 

[BellaDerma]

email big derms and ask them if they have any case reports or review articles to be written up, you don't need to be physically present and it doesn't have to be in your area. Then you can schedule time to rotate at their institution as a fourth year to get a letter.

Really solid advice. Thanks a lot!

 

[Dral]

Since you don't have a dept, you really need to start planning out how you'll get good LORs

 

[BellaDerma]

Since you don't have a dept, you really need to start planning out how you'll get good LORs

True, which is why I posted in this thread as soon as I got my step score back. My step score is pretty borderline, and my research is not much. Besides the great advice given before, do you have any suggestions? Do you think a research year is necessary?

 

[Dral]

Ideally letters should be from big name academic derms. You can get them with well planned aways or with a research year if you don't have access to any through departments nor research endeavors.

 

[dws276]

Just starting MS3 and wondering what my chances are

Preclinical Class rank: 3rd quartile

Step 1: 254

Rotation: On my first...

Research: 3rd author on paper in rheumatology (although more msk with no real derm component). Abstract at national rheumatology meeting. Emergency medicine abstract and poster presentation at medical school conference.

ECs: President of student interest group for non-derm speciality.

Volunteering: Nothing except stuff in college.

 

[Dral]

Should be ok if you get some Derm related research in there. Any Idea about AOA? I'm guessing no as third quartile, but every school does it differently.

Work on big name letters. Do you have a home department?

 

[dws276]

Yeah lets just assume AOA isn't going to happen. Haven't really looked into it but i think its safe to assume my chances are shot already.

I should have mentioned I go to a top 20 USNWR school incase that is relevant.

I'll definitely try to get some Derm related research in this year. Do you think a case report would be enough?

I have a home department and I think my chair is a pretty big name in the field as are 1 or 2 other faculty members.

Do LOR from IM (Rheumatology) hold much weight? I'm pretty sure i could get a great one. I don't know any Derm faculty and I'm not really sure how i would be able to get to know any before 4th year.

 

[username456789]

[QUOTE="Dral, post: 16668542, member: 240896] Any Idea about AOA? I'm guessing no as third quartile, but every school does it differently.
[/QUOTE]

It is a national requirement that you be in the top 25% to be considered.

 

[Dral]

Yeah lets just assume AOA isn't going to happen. Haven't really looked into it but i think its safe to assume my chances are shot already.

I should have mentioned I go to a top 20 USNWR school incase that is relevant. Also, I am a URM. Does that matter for residency or is it only medical school admissions?

I'll definitely try to get some Derm related research in this year. Do you think a case report would be enough?

I have a home department and I think my chair is a pretty big name in the field as are 1 or 2 other faculty members.

Do LOR from IM (Rheumatology) hold much weight? I'm pretty sure i could get a great one. I don't know any Derm faculty and I'm not really sure how i would be able to get to know any before 4th year.

You gotta ramp up the effort. Most people in the Derm world think a case report is barely a step above existing/breathing. Derms don't care what a rheum thinks of you in general. Derms care about what other derms they know think about you. You have to go to your department and get yourself known...like starting last week. Introduce yourself, but don't be annoying. Go to grand rounds, ask what research opportunities they have, etc.

Your job is to prove to everyone that you love and are committed to Derm. You are being judged against others who have already been doing this for a year, published 3 Derm articles, AOA, 258 srep 1, etc.

A case report and a rheum letter are not going to set you apart.

 

[dermie1985]

You gotta ramp up the effort. Most people in the Derm world think a case report is barely a step above existing/breathing. Derms don't care what a rheum thinks of you in general. Derms care about what other derms they know think about you. You have to go to your department and get yourself known...like starting last week. Introduce yourself, but don't be annoying. Go to grand rounds, ask what research opportunities they have, etc.

Your job is to prove to everyone that you love and are committed to Derm. You are being judged against others who have already been doing this for a year, published 3 Derm articles, AOA, 258 srep 1, etc.

A case report and a rheum letter are not going to set you apart.

Agree completely. Derm is all about connections. There is definitely a "merit" threshold you need to reach (i.e. board scores, clinical grades, etc.), which you should be fine with...but so is everyone else who is applying to derm. The real differentiation is research, who's writing you letters, who's making phone calls for you, etc. It's sort of the sad reality of dermatology, but such is life. After going through the interview process, talking to a lot of fellow co-applicants, and perusing match lists after it was all over....you realize that *a lot * of those 350 or so national spots in derm were probably already "taken" even before the application review process commenced. A lot of these decisions have less to do with "merit" (once you pass that threshold) and more to do with who's willing to support you into a position and what connections you have to a particular program. I'd definitely echo that you need to really get your home department behind you. Find a particular attending who seems like a good mentor and try to figure out a way to work with them either clinically or in a research setting so they can get to know you better.

Case reports aren't nothing. You'll be writing them as a resident most likely and it's good for a program to know you've investigated a single topic with at least some limited depth. But, yes. For the most part, if your case report isn't appearing in Lancet, JAMA, or NEJM....no one is going to care very much.

 

[Anik3]

This is my first post on SDN although I've been a lurker since pre-med...I came to med school to be a dermatologist (I'll spare you the details on why). I started derm related research and volunteering early on and made good grades as an MS1 and MS2, mostly high pass and some honors. I studied what I thought was effectively for Step 1, seeing gradual increases in my NBME scores so I was comfortable taking the test. I'm devastated since I was expecting anywhere from a 230-240 (worst case senario) and scored 200. I have no idea how or why, I'm paying for a re-grade. But is this the end if my score doesn't change with the re-grade? Even with 250+ Step 2 and honors in 3rd year do I have absolutely 0% chance? I've already done an internship at my school's derm dept that went really well. I'm too ashamed to tell my mentor (an attending at my home derm dept) my score and obviously my home program is my only hope of matching (after I complete a research year which I was planning on doing anyway). Maybe do prelim year, get a high step 3 then a fellowship where I can take the resident in-service exam to prove I'm not a risk for failing the board?? I know everyone will say I have to switch to family medicine but does anyone have any other suggestions at all? I know it's terrible but is there any way I can prove step 1 isn't the sum total of what it takes to be an excellent dermatologist?

 

[dermie1985]

This is my first post on SDN although I've been a lurker since pre-med...I came to med school to be a dermatologist (I'll spare you the details on why). I started derm related research and volunteering early on and made good grades as an MS1 and MS2, mostly high pass and some honors. I studied what I thought was effectively for Step 1, seeing gradual increases in my NBME scores so I was comfortable taking the test. I'm devastated since I was expecting anywhere from a 230-240 (worst case senario) and scored 200. I have no idea how or why, I'm paying for a re-grade. But is this the end if my score doesn't change with the re-grade? Even with 250+ Step 2 and honors in 3rd year do I have absolutely 0% chance? I've already done an internship at my school's derm dept that went really well. I'm too ashamed to tell my mentor (an attending at my home derm dept) my score and obviously my home program is my only hope of matching (after I complete a research year which I was planning on doing anyway). Maybe do prelim year, get a high step 3 then a fellowship where I can take the resident in-service exam to prove I'm not a risk for failing the board?? I know everyone will say I have to switch to family medicine but does anyone have any other suggestions at all? I know it's terrible but is there any way I can prove step 1 isn't the sum total of what it takes to be an excellent dermatologist?

I know someone who got a 205 on Step 1. Got a >260 Step 2 and matched at a top Optho program. So it's definitely *possible*, but I think that's definitely more of an "exception" than a "rule" and you'd be facing a steep uphill battle. Heck, even people with Step 1's in the 220's face a pretty dire situation. The reality is that many programs need to screen down applicants before reviewing applications, and (from what I've seen) most select anywhere between 230-240 Step 1 scores as the cut-off for application review (i've even heard as high as 250). Many programs will openly state the cut-off on their website, so you can look into that if you're interested. Also, FRIEDA posts cut-offs as well.

I'd wait for your re-grade and make sure the score is correct and not a mistake. Though, I imagine it is correct. I'd talk to your mentor (and maybe advising Dean) after this. I realize it can be *embarrassing*, but if he/she is truly your "mentor" then they will help you through this. Whether that means being realistic and guiding you into another specialty, or trying to help find you a way into dermatology even in light of this score. Suffice to say, you are probably not the first person interested in dermatology at your school who scored below target on their Step 1 exam. It will also be paramount to have a good relationship with your home program faculty. They honestly will probably be the most likely place you can match, as home programs are much more likely to overlook "blemishes" in the academic records of their own applicants if they still think they would be a great resident. They will have the time to see those "great" qualities in you, whereas an admission committee at another institution will likely not look much past your Step 1 score -- there are just too many other great applicants.

Good luck! I'm sure it'll work out in the end no matter what path you end up taking.

 

[Anik3]

@dermie1985 thank you for your response

 

[m116648]

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[asmallchild]

Would appreciate some inputs. PGY-2 in good standing at top ENT program. Personal and patient experiences behind my decision to switch to derm. Basically personal family events have made me evaluate what I enjoy the most professionally. Have had a lot of cross over experience with cutaneous surgery and Moh's reconstruction at my program. This in addition to visual diagnosis and increased clinic time are what I desire in my career. In process of setting up derm elective while I am finishing up research. Ivy Med School. Step 1: 258, Step 2: 246. Research: Project coordinator for 2 projects for US Government, 3 First Author publications (regenerative medicine), 2 current basic science regenerative medicine projects which I either designed or am a major part of (one almost complete other about 1/3rd of way done). Have extensive work experience and also leadership experience in the residency program. Trying to rotate with derm department at my institution (difficult due to it being rotator season). Will rotate with semi-private but moderately well known dermatologist in a week or two. Have letters of support from my institution. Any input/advice would be great.

Looks like you are on the right path. You are more than qualified with your stats, my recommendation would be to get as much exposure as possible and to get good letters (from dermatologists) for the application process.

I've met a couple of residents who have transferred from ENT. It would be worthwhile to target programs who have a history of taking transfers (as well as checking with your home program regarding any funding issues that may pop up)

 

[dloading]

Recently started M3 and was hoping to get some input. It's obviously early on for "chances" per se, but I wanted to know what I can do at this point besides doing well in clerkships. I think I'm in pretty good shape except for maybe research/extracurriculars, but I'm hoping that's correctable. Basically - what can I do to make my application as bulletproof as possible?

About me:
Non-trad student w/ a background in business
I go to a top 20 P/F school that doesn't rank, but where M1/M2 grades are factored in to AOA. In that regard, I would guess I'm in the top few percent or so, so I'm on pace for AOA as long as clerkships go well.
Step 1: 269.
Research: Derm project that produced a poster that was presented at 3 conferences. Currently working on a draft for publication and there's hopefully enough interesting data for possibly up to 3 publications. Non-derm project that was presented at a conference - will not result in a publication.
Extracurricular: President of a non-derm student interest group. Ex- college athlete who helps train local athletes in my sport. Not much else to be honest - I mainly just tried to have a good time with friends/family during M1/M2 when I wasn't studying. I enjoy my time away from medicine

To sum things up, what can I do at this point to help with my application? Thanks so much for the help.

 

[eolaserf]

At the beginning of my 4th year currently, and am strongly considering switching over to derm after an elective, but wondering about feasibility.

School: Top 40, northeast
Preclincal (P/F): all P
Core clerkships: HP in medicine (1st rotation); Honors in surgery, neuro, obgyn, family, peds, psych, rads
Step 1: mid 250s
Step 2: mid 250s
AOA: Only given to seniors here, I'm in the running but won't find out until late august or early september
Elected into gold humanism honor society
Research: 1 pub in a fairly prominent journal (basic science, middle author), 1 poster + presentation summer research after MS1 (basic science), one other paper that I'll be 1st author on if published (pertaining to medical education)
Extracurricular: Board member of non-derm interest group, community outreach program, took part in a youth fitness program, student-administration liaison. I've also been involved in teaching (developed and delivered a lecture at my home institution and acted as a small group discussion leader at a different medical school for MS2s). Outside of medicine I'm a former college athlete that still keeps in touch with the sport and I'm involved in music (played at some open mic nights etc).

Right now I'm in touch with my home department. I do have a home program. I haven't been directly involved in derm, but I do have a small amount of shadowing, as well as a close contact who has been in my ear about their dermatology research (which is the first thing that started to shift my gaze). It may be possible to reschedule an elective after next month to confirm/refute my interest + LOR, but in the mean time I'm planning on moving forward with applying.

Really what I want to know is if it is realistic to apply into derm this year vs. taking a year now and applying as a senior next year. Or if there are other avenues I should consider...

Thanks!

 

[dermie1985]

At the beginning of my 4th year currently, and am strongly considering switching over to derm after an elective, but wondering about feasibility.

School: Top 40, northeast
Preclincal (P/F): all P
Core clerkships: HP in medicine (1st rotation); Honors in surgery, neuro, obgyn, family, peds, psych, rads
Step 1: mid 250s
Step 2: mid 250s
AOA: Only given to seniors here, I'm in the running but won't find out until late august or early september
Elected into gold humanism honor society
Research: 1 pub in a fairly prominent journal (basic science, middle author), 1 poster + presentation summer research after MS1 (basic science), one other paper that I'll be 1st author on if published (pertaining to medical education)
Extracurricular: Board member of non-derm interest group, community outreach program, took part in a youth fitness program, student-administration liaison. I've also been involved in teaching (developed and delivered a lecture at my home institution and acted as a small group discussion leader at a different medical school for MS2s). Outside of medicine I'm a former college athlete that still keeps in touch with the sport and I'm involved in music (played at some open mic nights etc).

Right now I'm in touch with my home department. I do have a home program. I haven't been directly involved in derm, but I do have a small amount of shadowing, as well as a close contact who has been in my ear about their dermatology research (which is the first thing that started to shift my gaze). It may be possible to reschedule an elective after next month to confirm/refute my interest + LOR, but in the mean time I'm planning on moving forward with applying.

Really what I want to know is if it is realistic to apply into derm this year vs. taking a year now and applying as a senior next year. Or if there are other avenues I should consider...

Thanks!

Stats look great. You'll be an above average applicant from that perspective. Other thing to consider is...how many of your classmates are applying in derm as well? Despite your high stats, if you have a few fellow classmates (even with lower stats) who have been much more dedicated to dermatology than you have, your application may get passed along.

"Derm"-specific interest is lacking and sort of a big deal though. I'd have a meeting with your Advising Dean and derm department about setting up an elective for next month (or the following) so you squeeze it in before October 1st. They will make it work if it's really what you need. Definitely will be the most vital thing. It will be very difficult to match with no prior history of derm interest and no clinical elective before you apply. You'll be at a disadvantage both at the interview invite and interview stage, as it may be a hard sell to justify your career switch in both your personal statement and interviews if you haven't had much dermatology exposure. You'll also need at least 2-3 dermatology letters from people who know you well enough to recommend you...it doesn't you look you have these right now, but I think it's still possible to get them.....

I think research years are great (anyone interested in an eventual academic career should do one). While it would definitely strengthen your application and give you more time to build contacts and a derm "resume", I think if you (1) wanna graduate this year and (2) don't want to do academic medicine, I think it's do-able to apply this cycle as long as you fit in a derm elective before October 1st, and arrange good letters of rec. If you work really hard the next 2 months it will be possible to put together a great application.

Your alternative option is always to just apply "as is" with a back-up in mind (either matching prelim only or applying to a few programs in an alternative specialty you're considered). The latter can be logistically difficult, but people do it every year.

 

[asmallchild]

Recently started M3 and was hoping to get some input. It's obviously early on for "chances" per se, but I wanted to know what I can do at this point besides doing well in clerkships. I think I'm in pretty good shape except for maybe research/extracurriculars, but I'm hoping that's correctable. Basically - what can I do to make my application as bulletproof as possible?

About me:
Non-trad student w/ a background in business
I go to a top 20 P/F school that doesn't rank, but where M1/M2 grades are factored in to AOA. In that regard, I would guess I'm in the top few percent or so, so I'm on pace for AOA as long as clerkships go well.
Step 1: 269.
Research: Derm project that produced a poster that was presented at 3 conferences. Currently working on a draft for publication and there's hopefully enough interesting data for possibly up to 3 publications. Non-derm project that was presented at a conference - will not result in a publication.
Extracurricular: President of a non-derm student interest group. Ex- college athlete who helps train local athletes in my sport. Not much else to be honest - I mainly just tried to have a good time with friends/family during M1/M2 when I wasn't studying. I enjoy my time away from medicine

To sum things up, what can I do at this point to help with my application? Thanks so much for the help.

Looks like you are on the right track. I'd start to make yourself known within the derm department by trying to help out with research projects when possible (make sure you can actually carve out time in your MS3 schedule before committing to this), shadow if you haven't already done so, and start plotting out away electives for MS4 (this is probably a bit too early to do, I'd start around fall/winter time)

 

[eolaserf]

Your alternative option is always to just apply "as is" with a back-up in mind (either matching prelim only or applying to a few programs in an alternative specialty you're considered). The latter can be logistically difficult, but people do it every year.

Can you elaborate a little on how people do this?

Ideally I would love to apply this year, but realistically I understand it's a challenge. To this point, I have anticipated dual-applying if I do apply this year. Unfortunately I have my sub-i in the coming month which would be extremely difficult to maneuver around, making the derm elective a crunch. Otherwise I am definitely interested in academic medicine, and I would not be adamently opposed to taking a research year--this sounds like the safest bet.

 

[dermie1985]

Can you elaborate a little on how people do this?

Ideally I would love to apply this year, but realistically I understand it's a challenge. To this point, I have anticipated dual-applying if I do apply this year. Unfortunately I have my sub-i in the coming month which would be extremely difficult to maneuver around, making the derm elective a crunch. Otherwise I am definitely interested in academic medicine, and I would not be adamently opposed to taking a research year--this sounds like the safest bet.

It'll depend on what your "back-up" specialty is. If it's internal medicine, then it is shouldn't be too hard. Most applicants will make sure to apply to a couple of academic prelim internal med programs (i.e. let's say Mass General, BIDMC, BWH, even UTSW, UCSD to throw in some geographic diversity) and will rank those prelims after their derm programs on their rank list. Many of these programs will happily let a prelim candidate stay on as a categorical resident assuming you don't match in derm. In the case you apply and don't get many derm interviews, you could also just contact prelim programs closer to the match deadline and ask them if they would rank you as a categorical applicant. Some programs will frown upon this, but many understand the residency match process and won't hold it against you. If you're considering derm, your probably already a stellar internal med candidate.

Applying to other specialties as back-ups (i.e. surgery, optho, ENT, urology, radiology, rad-onc, etc.) would be logistically difficult and would likely require separate recommendation letters and definitely a separate personal statement.

In terms of taking a research year, you may have to start on this now. Most people would have already started their research year by this point in your position, and it may be difficult to find a (payed) position on short notice. You also want to make sure it's valuable experience, so working with someone prominent in dermatology or someone who will at least offer close mentorship and the possibility to publish in the next 12 months. You shouldn't delay residency unless you can find something that's actually going to help you.

 

[RP29]

Just started M3 and wanted to get some advice:

School: State medical school
Pre-Clinical Grades: All A's; Top 25% of class
Step1: 243
1 second-author publication (Derm related)
AOA - unknown; JR AOA is based heavily on Step 1, so most likely not in the running this year.
No grades on rotations yet.

I know this isn't much to go by, but I was wondering if anyone could give me any advice about my chances. Thank You.

 

[FIREitUP]

Just started M3 and wanted to get some advice:

School: State medical school
Pre-Clinical Grades: All A's; Top 25% of class
Step1: 243
1 second-author publication (Derm related)
AOA - unknown; JR AOA is based heavily on Step 1, so most likely not in the running this year.
No grades on rotations yet.

I know this isn't much to go by, but I was wondering if anyone could give me any advice about my chances. Thank You.

Looks pretty good. I would make sure to honor med, surg, peds (should help to get senior AOA). Keep up with research and get a few more pubs. Make sure you have strong letters from big names. Do a couple aways and you should be golden.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

Asking for a friend (No really I like EM/urology)

State MD school without derm residency
Preclinical: Honors except HP in anatomy
Step 1: 253
Clinicals: Honors in FM (only completed)
Research: 1 experience in peds cardiology.

Basically derm was always a pipe dream, and they focused on something else thinking grades/step wouldn't be up to snuff. Now they are going to meet with our school's dermatologist, and hope to get attached to research. Obviously try to get as many aways as they can next year. Assuming grades and step 2 follow the trend, how are they looking?

 

[asmallchild]

Asking for a friend (No really I like EM/urology)

State MD school without derm residency
Preclinical: Honors except HP in anatomy
Step 1: 253
Clinicals: Honors in FM (only completed)
Research: 1 experience in peds cardiology.

Basically derm was always a pipe dream, and they focused on something else thinking grades/step wouldn't be up to snuff. Now they are going to meet with our school's dermatologist, and hope to get attached to research. Obviously try to get as many aways as they can next year. Assuming grades and step 2 follow the trend, how are they looking?

Looking good. Things will always be tougher without a home program but your friend has prepared about as well as you can thus far. I would make sure he/she adds on some research beforehand and without a home program, he/she will have to get as many aways as possible (and I would start looking around January if not sooner)

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

Looking good. Things will always be tougher without a home program but your friend has prepared about as well as you can thus far. I would make sure he/she adds on some research beforehand and without a home program, he/she will have to get as many aways as possible (and I would start looking around January if not sooner)

Ok cool thanks. I figured she was doing everything she could, but always nice to double check. We were going to start looking into aways by talking with previous derm matches from our school and see where that gets us.

 

[asdfTT123]

I just started seriously considering derm since I've been thinking more about my options...still currently leaning towards IM as of now but the more I think I'm beginning to think derm is what i'm looking for since my interests intersect with infectious diseases, immunology, and multisystem disorders. I've also concluded I really don't like being in the OR and would prefer more ambulatory/inpatient. Would someone mind telling me where I stand and what I need to do to be in a competitive position to pursue derm?

School: Top 25
Preclinical: All honors
Step 1: 270
Clinicals: Just started MS3 about 2 months ago and waiting for grades from first rotation. Not sure yet.
Research: Upcoming abstract in urology, publication + poster presentation from gap year research, 3 pubs from undergrad (was quite awhile ago...would this still count?) No derm research yet but the earliest I could get started would be winter break of MS3.
AOA: Obviously unknown at this point but if I do well on clinicals I should be in the running.
Extracurricular: Some random volunteering, a lot of teaching experience, and some leadership in my class

If I decide on pursuing derm I would most likely like to stay at my home institution if possible since it's pretty ideal for family. Also, are away rotations important for derm? Thanks a bunch!

 

[PatsyStone]

I just started seriously considering derm since I've been thinking more about my options...still currently leaning towards IM as of now but the more I think I'm beginning to think derm is what i'm looking for since my interests intersect with infectious diseases, immunology, and multisystem disorders. I've also concluded I really don't like being in the OR and would prefer more ambulatory/inpatient. Would someone mind telling me where I stand and what I need to do to be in a competitive position to pursue derm?

School: Top 25
Preclinical: All honors
Step 1: 270
Clinicals: Just started MS3 about 2 months ago and waiting for grades from first rotation. Not sure yet.
Research: Upcoming abstract in urology, publication + poster presentation from gap year research, 3 pubs from undergrad (was quite awhile ago...would this still count?) No derm research yet but the earliest I could get started would be winter break of MS3.
AOA: Obviously unknown at this point but if I do well on clinicals I should be in the running.
Extracurricular: Some random volunteering, a lot of teaching experience, and some leadership in my class

If I decide on pursuing derm I would most likely like to stay at my home institution if possible since it's pretty ideal for family. Also, are away rotations important for derm? Thanks a bunch!

You should be good, but getting some derm research (even if it is just a case report) would be helpful.

It depends which top-25 school is your home department. Most students do away rotations, but a minority of departments strongly discourage them.

 

[asdfTT123]

You should be good, but getting some derm research (even if it is just a case report) would be helpful.

It depends which top-25 school is your home department. Most students do away rotations, but a minority of departments strongly discourage them.

Thanks a bunch for the reply, Patsy. I was wondering if research from early undergrad would have any bearing? I have a publication dating all the way back to 2008 and some between then and now. Recent research is mostly 2 abstracts, and one third author pub.

I'll probably get started doing some shadowing in the department if I can find time and seek research in December if things work out. I'm not too well versed with clinical research so I was wondering if anyone managed to work research into MS3 year and have tangible work to include into their residency applications?

 

[nowdoingderm]

Hey everyone, so I just started an elective dermatology rotation this week as a 4th year student. And I'm loving it. I was planning on doing internal medicine, but I think I want to switch to dermatology. Here are my stats:

School: US MD
Preclinical: Top 10% of class
Clinical: We use pass/fail (no honors/hp etc), but still top 10% of class
AOA: Junior status
Step 1: 259
Research: I have published 2 journal articles (first author on one) and have presented once at a national meeting. I have also published a case report. They are all non-dermatology.
Letters of Recc: I think I can get 2 letters from dermatologists (one is the chair of our dept, and another is a private practice derm) before Sept 15.

Honestly speaking, I know that I am wayyyyyy behind the game, but I appreciate any advice about what I should do in the next couple of months to increase my chances. Thanks!

 

[asmallchild]

Hey everyone, so I just started an elective dermatology rotation this week as a 4th year student. And I'm loving it. I was planning on doing internal medicine, but I think I want to switch to dermatology. Here are my stats:

School: US MD
Preclinical: Top 10% of class
Clinical: We use pass/fail (no honors/hp etc), but still top 10% of class
AOA: Junior status
Step 1: 259
Research: I have published 2 journal articles (first author on one) and have presented once at a national meeting. I have also published a case report. They are all non-dermatology.
Letters of Recc: I think I can get 2 letters from dermatologists (one is the chair of our dept, and another is a private practice derm) before Sept 15.

Honestly speaking, I know that I am wayyyyyy behind the game, but I appreciate any advice about what I should do in the next couple of months to increase my chances. Thanks!

Your stats look great but as you mentioned, this is a rather late period to apply.

Your stats are good enough where you would stand some chance if you wanted to apply this cycle. You will need to scramble to arrange away rotations and research opportunities ASAP. I would highly recommend LORs from academic dermatologists.

If you didn't mind taking a year off, you would improve your chances of matching significantly.

 

[dermie1985]

Thanks for the advice. I've seriously considered this possibility, but I'm trying to keep it as a last resort if I feel like I really don't have the research by the end of this year.

I'd second the derm research year. If it means the difference between not matching in derm and matching, a mere 12 months of your life isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Plus, research years are awesome. Laid back. Make connections. Meet some new people. Learn some new skills. I've never met anyone who regretted it.

If not, I'd suggest away rotations at programs you think you'd be a good fit for. The Midwest programs (like all regions) seem to favor Midwest applicants. I worry that (1) your Step 1 score is good, but not great (2) you don't have a home derm program which facilitates matching either at home or away and (3) you probably don't go to a Top 25 medical school (given most Top 25's have a derm program)....probably means your application may get overlooked outside the Midwest. I think you'll need something (research year, great away rotations, amazing rec from well known derm, etc.) to stand out and get a broader set of interview invites.

 

[dermie1985]

Thanks a bunch for the reply, Patsy. I was wondering if research from early undergrad would have any bearing? I have a publication dating all the way back to 2008 and some between then and now. Recent research is mostly 2 abstracts, and one third author pub.

I'll probably get started doing some shadowing in the department if I can find time and seek research in December if things work out. I'm not too well versed with clinical research so I was wondering if anyone managed to work research into MS3 year and have tangible work to include into their residency applications?

I don't think a research publication from 8 years ago will have much bearing at all. Especially if it wasn't derm related.

Clinical/epi research can be minimal time with maximal impact, so I'd look into finding a good mentor who has a research area you're interested in. Even if it doesn't produce a bunch of publications, it still means the formation of a mentorship relationship with a dermatologist. This is key to matching.

 

[dermie1985]

I just started seriously considering derm since I've been thinking more about my options...still currently leaning towards IM as of now but the more I think I'm beginning to think derm is what i'm looking for since my interests intersect with infectious diseases, immunology, and multisystem disorders. I've also concluded I really don't like being in the OR and would prefer more ambulatory/inpatient. Would someone mind telling me where I stand and what I need to do to be in a competitive position to pursue derm?

School: Top 25
Preclinical: All honors
Step 1: 270
Clinicals: Just started MS3 about 2 months ago and waiting for grades from first rotation. Not sure yet.
Research: Upcoming abstract in urology, publication + poster presentation from gap year research, 3 pubs from undergrad (was quite awhile ago...would this still count?) No derm research yet but the earliest I could get started would be winter break of MS3.
AOA: Obviously unknown at this point but if I do well on clinicals I should be in the running.
Extracurricular: Some random volunteering, a lot of teaching experience, and some leadership in my class

If I decide on pursuing derm I would most likely like to stay at my home institution if possible since it's pretty ideal for family. Also, are away rotations important for derm? Thanks a bunch!

Also, have you looked into rheum? Derm definitely deals with complex patients with immunological/ID issues. But in terms of multi system disorders...you're generally only going to be managing the cutaneous manifestations. Lupus patients, autoimmune disease, etc. are going to be seen by a rheum or hematologist for most of their care, etc. You're more of a consult unless their disease is mostly skin-limited. Certainly there are med-derm and rheum-derm experts, but these people are pretty rare in derm.

 

[Thecakedoc]

Ok guys be honest but not to harsh. What do you think I can do it is there even a derm chance.

Step 1 - 227
Step 2 - not taken yet
School - texas state school
Class rank - dead center at a guess
Pre clinic - pass and more pass
Clinic - all high pass so far but it's early yet
Extras - at current count over 400 hours at our student clinic and I opened a business during school (good for $ bad for grades)
AoA - nope
Research - 4 posters and 1 first author but it's in urology, currency working with our derm department to flush that out

Wel, how bad is it?

 

[Dral]

That Step I score is gonna hurt. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get an interview where I trained unless you knew someone well. However, not every program does things the same way mine does.

My advise to you is that you really have to start finding the nitty gritty about programs. You need to find out which ones screen less on step I and target those for aways. Also, it may take a research fellowship to get you in somewhere. My program's research fellows did well in the match, but it's mainly because they were screened initially by step scores for the fellowship to begin with.

It hurts that one exam can make such a big difference in what we want to do. If your heart's really in it, I think you can get a spot somewhere if you really do your research and target the right programs.

I hope you don't get to the point where you have to decide to keep trying or give up and try something else. I've seen people get to that point. They've invested so much and they still don't get to their end goal.

Anyway, best of luck. If you ever never need other advice you can always pm me.

 

[MrBigglesworth]

Ok guys be honest but not to harsh. What do you think I can do it is there even a derm chance.

Step 1 - 227
Step 2 - not taken yet
School - texas state school
Class rank - dead center at a guess
Pre clinic - pass and more pass
Clinic - all high pass so far but it's early yet
Extras - at current count over 400 hours at our student clinic and I opened a business during school (good for $ bad for grades)
AoA - nope
Research - 4 posters and 1 first author but it's in urology, currency working with our derm department to flush that out

Wel, how bad is it?

It would be very hard. If you are serious about it, stop that business and clinic thing and focus on research and learning derm really well

you would probably have to do at least one year of research between 3rd and 4th year and publish well.

Honor the rest of third year

Do well on step 2

Do aways at reasonable programs